Episode 34: Tennessee Oct-Dec 1975 Episode 34 with Tim Dills and Kevin McCann

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things. [00:00:06] Speaker C: To talk about and to do today. [00:00:08] Speaker A: Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. [00:00:13] Speaker C: It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker C: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. And now here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Well, hello everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. This is your host, Tony Richards, coming to you from the Richards ranch in Western Kentucky. And as you can see, maybe if you're watching on video, you can see through my windows here or maybe, maybe there, maybe, I don't know, you can see we got a little decorative snow. Not enough to be bothersome, not enough to prohibit Travit or keep the mail from running or anything like that, but just enough to make things kind of wintry and pretty for the holiday season and this time of year. I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I had a great family Thanksgiving here at the ranch and my mom, I tried to talk my mother out of doing Thanksgiving this year. I have made several. I've never, well, put it this way, I've never missed a Thanksgiving. So I'm up over 60 thanksgivings in a row here at the ranch and here in the little town that I grew up in in western Kentucky. And I missed some Christmases over the years because of travel and weather and that kind of thing, but I've never missed a Thanksgiving. And I try to talk my mom into, let's just, why don't we just. And some of you may grab your throat and do the choke thing. But I said, why don't we just get the family together. My brother, my sister in law, my niece, my nephew's girlfriend. Let's, let's just all go to Cracker Barrel. And what I was trying to do was make it easier on my mom, right? Who's going to be. Well, she's over 80, we'll put it that way, which is going to be 82 on her birthday in February. So I was trying to make it easy on her. I said, why don't we just go to Cracker Barrel? She goes, no, no, no, no. And you know, some of you may know I'm an executive coach and a corporate consultant in real life, or I was before I started doing the semi retirement thing and started doing more of pro wrestling history. So I've, you know, and also got some education in psychology. And so there are ways that people are motivated and I Can tell you right now, my mother, and so was my father before he passed about three years ago. Extremely, extremely traditionally motivated. They like the family traditions, they like the family rituals. They like the way their life is and the way it's set and they are not going to change it. So. So I spent some time trying to talk her out of. And it was really, I was just trying to get her out of all the work and all the fuss and all the stress of having all of us family over and everything. But she was not going to have it. And about halfway through the discussion, after I tried to convince her a little while that we should go someplace else and do it to save her all the trouble, I smartened up and all of a sudden a light bulb went off in my head and said, tony, she likes doing this. This is something she enjoys doing. It keeps her active, it keeps her busy. She doesn't look at it as too much work. She looks at it as a joyful process about doing something for her family that she wants them to enjoy. And then I thought, I had a thought. I'm like. And I asked myself a question, which I often do when I get in these situations, about whether or not to go ahead and pursue something. This little voice on my shoulder started saying, are you going to be the one that takes this away from her? And I answered that just really lickety split, no, I am not going to be the one that takes us away from her. If she wants to do it, let her do it. I was just trying to be nice and try to figure out a way that would be easier on her. Until I figured out she didn't want it to be easy on her. She wants to have Thanksgiving in her house. And she said, I may get to the point someday where I can't do it and then we can go somewhere else. But right now I can do it. I know I can do it and I want to do it. I'm like, well, mom, do it, do it, do it. So we had a nice Thanksgiving, long story short, and I hope you did too. I hope you enjoyed our special Thanksgiving spectacular that we had this year. I'm now planning and putting together the big Christmas super show, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel 2025 Christmas Super Show. It's coming up the week of Christmas here and probably next week. I'll have some details on what we're going to have on the Christmas super show, but I think you're going to really enjoy it. And then the two weeks at the end of the year, or maybe the one week going into next year, we're going to have another special, special show this week here on the show. I'm excited because we're going to be talking about Tennessee Wrestling and we'll get to that in just a second. I want to remind you that if you listen to the audio version of our show, the audio version of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast is available on all the major platforms. A bunch of places our shows are now available, we're adding previous episodes in. I think we have 10 or 11 episodes from our library put in there. We're eventually going to have all our previous episodes that cover the year 1975 available for you to download in audio form. And we add our new show, including this one, every single week. And you can download it on Apple Podcasts, you can get it on Spotify, you can get it on Podcast Addict, Pocket Cast and many, many others. So get our audio version of our show if you want to watch it on video. We always have it on our substack channel, Tony Richards 4 Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And we also have it on our own YouTube channel, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. YouTube and I always post the video version every week in our Facebook group, Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And if you go to our Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel group on Facebook, there's a button there that says featured. And if you hit the featured button, you'll see all of our previous archives of podcasts there, including the latest one that week, handy dandy and ready for you to consume. So you can get audio and video on substack, you can get audio anywhere you regularly get your podcast, and you can get video on YouTube and substack. I've been doing another special thing in the writing that I do. I'm writing a salute, a profile to classic Territory Era tele television wrestling show commentators. So the name of the series, because I did in the month of November, I did, or October, maybe it was October. Every day in October, I featured a Territory Era announcer and commentator. And I didn't even get everybody that I have on my list in that list of 31. So I think I'm going to do another one next year. But this year I did 31 different territory era commentators and announcers from television that did wrestling. And now I'm releasing a profile on each one of those 31. And we've done one on Larry Matazek, we've done one on Sam Minicker, we just did one on Bob Cottle. And I did Bob because he just passed away and I wanted to have a tribute to Bob So I did his profile as the number three profile that we released. And I've last week I've written a new one on Gordon solely because I just felt like Thanksgiving was the proper time to come out with the Gordon Soley profile because he was so much a part of Thanksgiving for the first couple of years of Starcade. And as a little tribute to Gordon, we released his profile on Thanksgiving Day. So we've got more coming. So we've done four. That means we've got 27 more individual profiles of pro wrestling television announcers. And by being a subscriber to my substack channel, you can do it for, for free. Or if you want to contribute to the work I'm doing and you want to contribute to the preservation of pro wrestling history, it's easy to do. Just become a premium subscriber to my substack channel. You can do that for $5 a month. Or if you want to save $10, you can contribute $50 for the entire year. And you'll get my daily pro wrestling history newsletter, which is called the Daily Chronicle, and that'll come into your email box. And you know, one thing that I've learned is people get excited about pro wrestling history until you start sending them an email every day about it. And then some people, they tap out and say, ah, stop the emails. I can't take it anymore. So they thought they were going to love pro wrestling history, but when they started hearing about it and reading about it every day, they're like, ah, too much, Too much. But for you pro wrestling history enthusiasts who want to get a daily newsletter sent to you about pro wrestling history, just sign up Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Free or Premium? Free is zero. Premiums, $5 or $50 a year. And you'll also get some special content that I write and a series called the Evolution of Pro Wrestling where I document some major changes and major events in pro wrestling history that if you took them out of pro wrestling history, it wouldn't be the same business. So I write that series. You get the 31 television era announcers with a free subscription plus the Daily Chronicle. Wow, that's a, that's a nice deal. I also want to let you know that I'm on stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw again. I'm doing my third series with those guys. We've done the Funk Family and the History of West Texas Wrestling. We've done the Life and Career of Jim Barnett the Wizard. And now we're doing the Welch's from Tennessee, the Roy Welch and Family Legacy. And this is going to be a five or six episode series. We just did episode three. That's going to come out on Thursday of this week. I'm going to be talking about the entry of the first studio television shows in the Tennessee territory. I'm going to be talking about the tag team that hit television in Nashville and in Birmingham, in Knoxville and in the Gulf coast territory, the Fabulous Fargo Brothers, and the programs that they did with the Corsicans and also the program they did with the Welch brothers, Herb, Roy and Lester. And it's going to be fabulous. So check out stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. We're doing the Roy Welch and Family Legacy series. It's probably going to be a five or six episode and we're even going to have Roy Welch's grandson, Ron Fuller Welch on with us on the very last episode. Whichever one that turns out to be five or six, probably six. So tune in for that. Now I tell you that especially because today here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, we've got Tennessee territory expert Tim Deals, my regular Tennessee analyst and commentator. And we're going to be talking about the last three months, October, November, December, 50 years ago in 1975 in the Tennessee territory, what was going on in Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, Chattanooga, Huntsville and all the towns in Tennessee. And Tim and I have a special guest. We've got Kevin McCann coming on with us. Kevin has just released his first pro wrestling history book. Kevin's an author and a real historian and he's done some other works that have been released, but this is his first wrestling book. And it almost took him 20 years to put this book together to get all the information that he felt like was necessary to have as complete a book as possible. And he's written a book on Rowdy Red Roberts. Now, Rowdy Red Roberts was one of the top heels for Roy Welch in the Tennessee territory in the 40s and the 50s and some of the 60s. And so we're going to be visiting with Kevin McCann about his book on Rowdy Red Roberts, and he's going to tell us a little bit about Rowdy Red himself. And then Tim and I are going to go on with the show and talk about the Tennessee territory in the last three months of 75. I think you're really going to enjoy this. It's going to be chock full of wrestling history over the next couple of hours. So stay with us and enjoy my Visit with Kevin McCann and Tim Deals from the Richards Ranch on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Well, in the middle of our Journey through the Last part of 1975 in Goulas Welch in Tennessee wrestling. Tim and I thought we'd get in the time tunnel and take another leap back another generation to talk about a wrestler that I venture to say probably not a lot of podcasts are talking about this week and Tim and I might be the only one talking about this guy, but he just recently had a book written about him. And we have the author here, a fellow historian who delves into not just wrestling, but a lot of different subjects, Kevin McCann. And Kevin, thank you so much for joining Tim and I today. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. [00:14:36] Speaker A: So you, you've written a lot of different kinds of history books, right? Not just wrestling. [00:14:42] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I saying the subject to my books tend to be, I guess, underappreciated subjects, so to speak. People, you know, figures that. That not a lot of people know about that sort of tends to be my. Tends to be where my, where my interests go to. [00:14:58] Speaker A: So you, you grew up in Jackson, which is about halfway between Memphis and Nashville and, and one of the towns that Tim. Yeah, Tim and I talk about all the time because that was a regular stop for the Gulas Welch guys. But you probably came along in the Jarrett years, right? Were you a wrestling fan? [00:15:17] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I really became a fan during high school. I mean, I remembered it because my grandfather used to always have it on TV every Saturday morning. So I remembered seeing the, the old WMC, you know, Channel 5 studio show from, from when I was little. But I didn't really get involved and start going to the matches in Jackson until about 1985. [00:15:40] Speaker A: We've, we've talked about Jackson quite a bit here. Tim and I both have had a lot of experience. Tim lived there for a while and I had a relationship through marriage of someone from Jackson and I was always jealous because they could see the Saturday morning 90 minute show and I never got to see that on a regular basis. I always got the edited hour long show that got syndicated out to the, to the various towns that. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Plus we also got to see the. We also got to see the show that was usually on Saturday night, you. [00:16:16] Speaker C: Know, where you had all the. [00:16:18] Speaker B: That was when they would actually show the arena matches. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:20] Speaker B: And I would have my, you know, VCR go in to record those. I wish I still had a lot of them. [00:16:26] Speaker A: That's good. All right. And so Tim, you had a chance to take a look at some of the material that Kevin has in the book too. What are your. [00:16:35] Speaker C: By the way, we'll have a shot of it. I'm kind of halfway in the sun here. Yeah, here it is. Let me tell you, it's not a thin one. [00:16:42] Speaker A: It's a big book, 530 pages. [00:16:46] Speaker C: I know. It came in the mail to me one day earlier this week, and I was so mad at myself because I did not have a chance to look at it that day. I had one of those days where it was just like. But when I finally sat down and looked at it, I was really amazed at the detail. I learned a lot about Red Roberts that I didn't know, and admittedly, I didn't really know a whole lot I had. I knew about him when I really researched Knoxville. And Red was part of that group of the Welch family that promoted so much or so many towns, and he was part of that group that traveled to Knoxville a lot, and he got a lot of coverage in Knoxville through the years. But I learned a lot of stuff that Kevin was able to dig out, not just from Knoxville, but from all over the place. And I. I really enjoyed. I've enjoyed reading what I had, and I can't wait to delve back into it even more. And let me say, one of the things I love about it, it's a. It is a record book. So you see Reds wins and losses, quote, unquote, you know, but the thing that Kevin does in here that I really like, and. And this is the historian in him, I think he lists the city, he lists the venue, he lists the promoter, he lists the referee, he lists all these little anecdotes that come along with the newspaper that are so valuable that adds to this picture even more, other than just having a flat result. It's a really well put together book. [00:18:15] Speaker A: And Kevin, my gosh, how long did you work on this 530 page opus? [00:18:20] Speaker B: Well, about, really about two, two and a half years. Although the idea for it actually came about in 2003 when. When a lot of the. The chat rooms, like wrestling classics.com kayfabe memories, when they were becoming, I guess, popular, or at least when I discovered them. And that's when I had started my research, because my father, going back to Jackson, my father and his brother went to the matches at the old National Guard armory in the 50s and 60s. And when I became interested in wrestling in the 80s, my father told me about, you know, about him going to the matches, and one of his favorite wrestlers was Rowdy Red Roberts. And that always struck me because the name is just. It's just a colorful name. He said he was, you know, he described he was a bald, you know, bald heel. And he tells the story, and I kind of tell it in the forward of my book that he remember. Of course, in those days, the. The African American black fans had to sit in the balcony section at the Armory. And apparently they were giving Red the business. And apparently during the match, Red. There was a pole, I guess, where you could. That was supporting the balcony. And Red, I guess, had enough of it, so he decided to give him a scare. So he starts shimmying up the pole. And my dad said all the fans up there just scattered. You know, we're scared to death of, you know, rowdy Red Roberts coming after them. So I thought so. He seemed like a colorful character. There wasn't a whole lot about him. So. So that kind of started my journey. But at the time, of course, it was very hard to. To try to learn more information about him. I mean, Scott Teal Libden. I'm g. Mispronounce his name. Lin AUB Yes. AU Libnan was very helpful. Scott Teal David Williamson, who. Who of course has passed away since. But he was very helpful. They all shared re results with me. But at that time it was so hard because you had to actually go that you had to go to the news, the. The. The archives, the local libraries, and research every town. And it seemed like such a. It was going to be such a long process to try to research his entire career that I kind of put that project on the shelf, moved on to other ones. And then a few years ago, podcasts like yours, Ray Russell's, you know, Jim Cornette, all, you know, I started getting back into those and got back into the history of wrestling. And of course, by then, newspapers on newspapers.com other various resources where the newspapers are available online and searchable that just, you know, I started searching Red Roberts Wrestling and just. I just went down the rabbit hole. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:12] Speaker B: You know, just gathering results from all these little, little towns in, you know, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, and just kind of just learning where he went. And, you know, like I said, it took me about. Took about two and a half, three years to. To actually compile the book and to. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Well, I, you know, I grew up in western Kentucky and the closest big town to where I grew up was Paducah, which there's a couple of references in there, especially in the opening about Red in Paducah, which was one of Roy's towns that he kind of pioneered when he started trying to build the territory. The original Dykesburg office or Dyersburg office. And so that did my heart good to see my closest hometown kind of mentioned in there in the book. How. How the other thing is interesting to me, and I've been talking to Jason Presley a lot about this is the. The Chris Jordan crossover there in the 30s between Chris was kind of running the territory and Roy was getting some talent there. And then they were kind of working together. And I guess that's how Roy and Nick met up was through Chris Jordan's office. Do you have any idea how they. Did they ever interact, Roy and Chris, or how that kind of came? [00:22:34] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately, I. I don't. I don't really know. Most of. Most of my knowledge actually came from Jason's book, his great book on Alabama, on the Alabama territory in the 30s. Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't. I don't know a lot more about that now. I did, of course, read. That was really where Red Roberts got his break. [00:22:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:53] Speaker B: He had started in Arkansas. He was from Little Rock, and he started there working for Tony Bernardi. His promotion, I guess. And then. But then he got his. Red got his break, actually, when he went to. Went to Alabama and worked for Chris Jordan. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Well, he had a long career in the Gulas. Welsh territory, I remember. I think it might have been in Jerry Jarrett's book maybe where he mentions Red was the guy who introduced him to the most interesting parts of the wrestling business or something like that. Because I know Red's career was winding down about the time Jarrett's was starting up there in the mid to late 60s. You know what he's talking about there, Tim? [00:23:35] Speaker C: No. I mean, we can speculate. I guess maybe he let him in on the. The tricks of the business. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:45] Speaker C: Or. Or. [00:23:46] Speaker A: Or he knew where all the stops were. [00:23:49] Speaker C: Yeah, it could be too. [00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What was the most interesting thing you found out about Red during this? I mean, gosh. [00:23:57] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Just. I guess just his. The way he went about being a heel, I thought was fascinating just because, you know, just from all these little articles you pick up little things that he did in this match that match all the. The various foreign objects he used was. Was just. I thought was hilarious. And that's why I kind of. I take it, take a good chunk of pair, you know, of the forward or the. The biography section to go through all those because I thought they were so interesting using Slice soap and. And, you know, all these. These different things. I guess we were all used to foreign objects like just, you know, just like a, you know, a stick or something like that. But there was Just that that was always in. That was interesting to me was his psychology of, of how he went over in these towns and that he just, he just, just with his expressions, it would. There were descriptions. He would make this. He would have this sort of look, this little certain strut, the way he carried himself and it just set fans off. And I thought that was so fascinating. And, and because we don't have video footage of him like so many of the great. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Wrestlers from the. From the 40s, 30s, 40s, 50s, that we don't. We don't have that. So that sort of put in my mind anyway, and I hope I convey that to the readers, kind of give them an idea of what he was like in your imagination. You can see him. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Yeah. One of the things that's interesting to me is how he'll got over without the interview on television and without that medium being in place in the 30s and the 40s and the early 50s, especially in this area here that the Welches promoted how the heels would get over. And as you were talking about the foreign objects, I was thinking, well, those are things that the fans used in their homes all the time. You know, women used lye soap. And so that was relatable to them. And I also can't imagine how in this area and in the south, you're raised with a lot of humility and not to get above your raisin and to be polite and to be nice and be respectful. And here's this guy who's like over the top, egotistical, strutting and using foreign objects and that was very heelish, you know, back, back in those days. I can't imagine. Tim. [00:26:30] Speaker C: Boys, I was going to say, did no one, like none of the women in your family carry brass knuckles? I mean, you know, I think that's a great point though. I mean, it was relatable. You could relate to. What's he doing with a bar of soap, you know? Oh, he's rubbing it in, the guys. Oh. And you can feel it because you've probably done it by. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Probably done it. [00:26:51] Speaker C: You know, you're sweating and, you know, and so it's very relatable. I fought and. And talking about getting. Getting over an age where television wasn't there to assist you. Newspapers of this time frame, especially the late 30s, 40s and into the 50s, were so good about explaining what happened at the matches last week and why you needed to come. And I don't know. I don't know that the promotion that necessarily did that. The newspaper may have sent somebody down there to do that and covered it at least in somewhat of a legitimate, legitimate matter manner. And I think that gets it because as, as Kevin said here, some of the descriptions are so vivid of what took place at the matches. You can actually visualize it in your mind. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Well, I, I think that's kind of the genius of, of Roy and some of these early promoters were developing those relationships and that was the biggest sporting event that would take place in that town. And not only that, it was a huge social event because some of these towns they came back to week after week after week and year after year that it became the thing you did as part of. I mean, you weren't going to have a big music star come to your town. You weren't, you know, outside of high school sports, you really didn't have a lot of events to go. I mean, that's why basketball has always been huge in Kentucky. There's just not a lot of other things here, you know, and you know, some little high schools didn't even have football. So it was pretty much, you know, basketball was it. And then outside of that, wrestling was the thing you went and did. So I'm sure that the paper felt like to be relatable to the community and the things our readers are interested in, we needed to be at this big, big event, I would think. Yes. You know, anything else about that, Kevin? [00:28:49] Speaker B: Or. [00:28:50] Speaker A: I mean, isn't it wonderful that we have those newspapers? I mean, without those, we wouldn't know any of this stuff. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I mean, and, and, and I kind of go back to, to, to the availability of them now, even just for, for the curious fan, not, not to mention historians to go back and look at. And, and I was, I was, I was grateful for the amount of coverage that there was. I guess I was surprised because going into it, I wanted to, going into, I really wanted to gather the results. I wanted to know where he was, you know, this year. This year, this year and follow the course of his career from beginning to end. But yeah, I mean, and I was surprised by the amount of like the, the matches were described in detail even in these small towns. Like you said, that was a big event for, for some of these figures like, you know, Roy Welch and Rowdy Red Roberts and, and others to, to come to town. So they got, they got some good, very good coverage in the, in the newspapers. And that, that to me was surprising. [00:29:53] Speaker A: What about the psychology of. And Tim, you weigh in on this too. But what about the psychology of working with the referee, you know, I know later on in, in wrestling, you know, they didn't want to put too much heat on the referee. But. But Red did a lot of work with the referee, right? [00:30:12] Speaker B: He did. He did. He made. It was so funny. He. He made the referee part of the match. He made them part of the show. And that was. That made him. That even. He was. He was one of those wrestlers you loved to hate. And. But they love that. The. I. It's my impression that they love. They love that aspect of it, that he would just like Mike Maroney, who is the longtime promoter in Blytheville, Arkansas. He was. He. He seemed to love to be the foil for Robert's antics. You know, Roberts would tweak him on the nose. He would. Apparently, of course, they had something worked out ahead. He would rip the referee's pants off and reveal he's got green, you know, shorts under him. And, you know, everybody has a big laugh. And that's definitely. And I don't follow the current product very much, but even, even. Even the product from the 80s, I don't remember too many more instances where the referee was that directly involved. I mean, he would, you know, he would, he would. Sometimes he would. Red would get so excited that he would. He would forget who he was going after and he'd go after the referee and try to pin the referee, and everyone, you know, the fans thought that was just hilarious. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah, he was. [00:31:28] Speaker B: He seemed like a master at that. [00:31:30] Speaker A: I think as wrestling moved to be more television product, I think the referee, they wanted the referee to be more serious because they wanted to present it more. It's a difference in being on television and being at a house show. You know, I think a lot of wrestlers would do things at a house show they'd never do on television or they'd never do at a big show. But, I mean, you know, being a traveling attraction, wrestling did go back to its carnival roots at times and be. And have showmanship involved in it. [00:32:03] Speaker C: And it was also a time when good and bad or good and evil were more clearly defined. And so if you're picking on the referee and your fans want the good guy to win, man, it just. It makes Brownie Red Roberts even bigger heel to you. [00:32:22] Speaker A: You know, and then the other thing, too I wanted to ask you about, Kevin, is if you're doing all that stuff in the ring like Tim's talking about, and you're even a bigger heel at times in this era especially, aren't people going to come after you? Like, aren't they, like, it's not like they had all this security and barricades and everything that we have now at these shows. I mean, it was just. And I even remember we're going to wrestling matches at the National Guard Armory in Paducah where there wasn't anything between us and the wrestlers in the ring. We were sitting on the front row at ringside in the armory and there's Randy Savage or Ronnie Garvin and they're right in our laps almost. And if we wanted to, I never really wanted to, but if we wanted to, we could actually grab them or do something to them. Right. And so he, he had that kind of heat too. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Oh, yes. And. And of course, that was, that was the era where I think there was, there was a suspension of disbelief for, for sure. And yeah, I mean, it just the things he would do to incite people and, and that was his job. You know, that was his job to put the baby faces over, was to put. Make him. Make himself out to be so dastardly and devious and, and to do all these things with foreign objects, you know, and, and on all that. But yeah, I mean, he, he, he started quite a bit of riots. You know, you, you'd hear these descriptions where you may not get many details, but they would say there was a near riot or, you know, and there was, I think, and, and I was surprised, I was surprised to find out he was only stabbed once in Atlanta. Apparently he was event in Atlanta. And his. I know his granddaughter. I had the opportunity to, to briefly talk. Speak with his granddaughter and she had related the fact that his, that his wife had even been threatened to be shot when she went to one of the matches. So it wasn't. I guess that was just, that was just the, you know, point. It was just going to. Hey, there was. There was that chance that it could happen, that you could take that heat a little too white and get it a little too excited and. Yeah, I mean, I wish, I wish, I wish I had had the opportunity to. To, to speak with people who, who worked with him, who knew him and who could relate some of these stories that didn't make it into the newspapers because I think, I think there would have been a whole lot many, many more colorful stories if, if I had. If I had that opportunity. [00:34:56] Speaker A: But we. We've lost all those people, haven't we? I mean, that's the. When you start. For those of you who wonder about things that we study and get involved with this, that and the other. That's one of the most sad and Frustrating things is it's so difficult to find people after a certain amount of time that were even around back then. And then you look, this happens to me almost every day because I publish a newsletter. And in that newsletter we put the days that people have passed and I'm like, oh my gosh, that guy only passed away in 2010. Like, I wish I would have been doing this then, where I could have contacted him back in 2000 and had a conversation with him, you know, does that happen to you, Tim? I mean, where you're sitting there going, oh my gosh, that, that guy has only been gone for 10 years. [00:35:46] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And even, you know, the time frame that Red was so big in the business and some people would talk about it, but you know, you had a generation there that wouldn't tell you about it, right. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Either. [00:36:01] Speaker C: So you, you would have to work a little harder to get that information out of them. And, and, and that's sad. But that's, that's also the importance of why we do dig out what we dig out and why we try to find what we can because we might run across somebody who does know something and can chime in on it. [00:36:21] Speaker A: There's probably fans who are, they got their mouth hanging open that there was a rowdy before Roddy Piper. How do you get that name, Kevin? [00:36:32] Speaker B: Well, I believe Chris Jordan actually gave it to him, or at least that was the earliest instance in the late 1930s when it was actually used for him because he was, he was called Rough Red Roberts. He was called, he actually in, for some reason in, oh, the name escapes me now. In Missouri, he went in this small resort, port Poplar Bluff. Poplar Bluff, Missouri. For some reason he was called Preacher Red Roberts. It was never explained why, but, but that's what he went by. But, but Rowdy Red Roberts was, was the name that he went by for the most part. But yeah, it just, he, it just, I, I, I guess I attribute it to Chris Jordan because that's the earliest instance to where he was called that. [00:37:14] Speaker C: Did it rolls off the tongue. I mean, that's part of, that's, I think part of the appeal is it's. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Just a memorable name and you got the triple R's. You know. Did his granddaughter say, give you much of an idea of what it was like family wise with, with him, like what her grandfather was like, or just. [00:37:35] Speaker B: Very, very little because he, she, I think he, he had, he had been married to. Well, he'd been married a few times to, to, to, to, to, to the two of the same people, but he had had Chill. A child later in life. So. But his granddaughter now is probably. I. I can't remember. She's probably a little younger than me, so she didn't. She doesn't have very many memories of him, but she did. [00:38:02] Speaker A: She. [00:38:02] Speaker B: She did share a few little, Few little traits of his, that he was a very funny person. He loved westerns, loved kid John Wayne movies that. But. And he enjoyed having fun, but he didn't like it to be taken too far. And she. She told me a story that I put in the book that I guess he was in a bar one time and somebody decided to get a little too. [00:38:27] Speaker C: Get. [00:38:27] Speaker B: Get a little too rowdy. And Rowdy Red threw him out of the bar. [00:38:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, wow. [00:38:34] Speaker B: But. But he. Yeah, he. He was. And you'll. You'll probably get into this later, but of course he was the. He built himself as the wrestling undertaker. And in. Later in life I learned that he had. He. He actually became an undertaker. He wasn't. He wasn't during his career, but he did become an undertaker later. He became a funeral director. He. When he retired, he lived in Gadsden, Alabama, and he was that. And he was also a paramedic. So. So I learned, and a few people have shared on Facebook little stories about him that apparently overall he was a very. He was kind of. It's often said that the heels are often, you know, out of the ring. They're often the most nice, the nicest people. And based on what stories I've been told, that seems to been the case with. With Rowdy Red Roberts, which I'm happy to know that. That, that he just, he just. He did. He played his role so well. You know, he played the role so well, but is a real person. He was a really nice guy. [00:39:35] Speaker A: And I'm always just like, more power to you, man. I mean, playing a heel in those days, the way the business was and the way society was, and you know, people coming to the matches in the later years of the Great Depression, and they're not in the best mood. Life is not the best for them. And they're able to take their frustrations and all their stuff out on you at the wrestling matches. I'm just like, man, you have got the courage of. I don't know. I don't know what. But a lot more courage than. I'd probably have to go in there and do those things. And so, I don't know, I just really admire that. Well, Tim, you got any final thoughts or questions for Kevin? [00:40:18] Speaker C: Well, I know I took just a few notes, you know, and this may, this may interest. I know it'll interest you, Tony. You know, we, we talk a lot about Roy Welch and we talk about the Welch family. And In Red was one of those, and we've mentioned it today already, he was almost like another member of the family. He worked for them so much in the fact that he worked for them so much. And, you know, you look at him, I just wrote down a few names, was I was going through that. Are some of those guys Tex Riley, Bill Caney, Moody Palmer was another name that I ran across that I know was a big guy in West Tennessee. [00:41:00] Speaker A: And I think Moody is the guy in the Paducah match. Was probably so, yeah. [00:41:07] Speaker C: Don Cortez and Eddie Malone and Carlos Rodriguez, all these guys work for, for Roy and Nick through the years, consistently. And not only that, they, they kept, you know, I mean, they kept, consistently, they kept coming back, and they were never stale. It seemed like they were never stale. You're talking about coming into these towns every week, 50 weeks a year, 52 weeks a year. And so, my goodness, 12 years ago, Red Roberts was, was main, main eventing here. Well, Here he is 12 years later, main eventing again. You know, there was something to it, something about his ability, the ability of the promotion to put them together and keep it fresh. It was great. And I always love the fact that, and when you talk about a character like this, there seems to be, at least at some point, some redemption for them, especially for a heel. And later in his career, he spent a lot of time as a referee, and he was, you know, the referee that wasn't going to put up with anything. You know, he was, he kind of turned to, you know, kind of, so the fans could at least cheer him a little bit. You know, you get that a lot with these guys who've been around a long time. The fans love them because of their longevity, even though they were so bad for so many years. And I see him in some of these matches, Battle of the Brutes matches, you know, who would you root for there? But you couldn't put just anybody in a Battle of the Brutes match because you had to be a bad guy, a bad guy to go in a Battle of the Brutes match, the fans to really be excited about it. That's just some of the takeaways that I saw here. I saw that he had some business in Yorkville, Tennessee, at some point, which, of course, is Roy Welsh's hometown, or ended up being Roy's not necessarily hometown. [00:42:50] Speaker A: But ended up being adopted hometown for sure. [00:42:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker B: I wish, I wish I had learned. I really tried to. To. To learn more about that aspect that he was an undertaker and. But I could not find any evidence that he owned a funeral. He supposedly owned funeral homes in Little Rock, ble, Arkansas, Yorkville, Tennessee. But I just could not find anything to document the fact that he was. So I just have to say, well, maybe it was just kayfabe, but, but I was. And it was interesting. One, one other little interesting thing was the fact that, you know, talking about how he was so close to the Welches, you know, he, he. I think, I believe I knew he lived in Dyersburg when he first went to work for the Mid south booking office. He lived in Dyersburg and I suspect he lived there for at least a while longer, for at least 10, you know, in, in through the 30s, I believe, and maybe into the early 40s. So I, you know, and like I said, he, he was a mainstay in the goodless Welch territory. I mean, when, when, when Roy Welch acquired Mississippi about 1955 into the Gulf coast, he sent Red Roberts there. Red Roberts worked through there with, with the. Worked with the work with Roy's. Oh, I'm trying to think of what the brothers. I'm sorry, the Fields brothers. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Yeah, the Hatfield. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Right. He feuded with them. He, you know, he worked with Mario Galento early in Mario Galinto's career on the Gulf Coast. So, you know, to me, I guess that does speak that. That Red Roberts was loyal to Roy Welch. I think that that speaks the fact that he stayed there so long. Now, Red did. He went off from time to time. He worked into the Carolinas in Georgia for other different promoters, but he always came back home to Goulas Welch. [00:44:49] Speaker A: Well, to Tim's point earlier, that's how you kept these guys fresh as you sent them away for a while. You sent them over to a part of your territory to work certain towns and then you rotated them back in and yeah, I was, I was just going to say that Eddie Malone. That's Pat, right? That's same. Same guy as Pat Malone. Another name that you hear a lot is Charlie Carr. That was a guy there. And there's probably 15 or 20 of those guys. [00:45:20] Speaker C: Right, that George Harris later on. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, George Harris and then later on too, Buddy Wayne, you know, where a long time worked back to the Memphis days when they first bought Memphis and all of that. So. Well, Kevin, thank you so much. I mean, I appreciate you coming on with Tim and I and gosh, I'm just so proud of you for writing this book and it's such looks. It's so comprehensive and so big and good luck with it. Where can people get this book? [00:45:52] Speaker B: You can get it directly from me. Rowdyredroberts.com would be the best place if you'd like to get a signed copy. It's also going to be. It's also available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other online booksellers. [00:46:05] Speaker A: Well, shoot. Yeah, I, I need a signed copy of this thing. I need you to. [00:46:10] Speaker B: I'll get you one. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Put your Kevin McCann on mine. Tim's already got one. [00:46:19] Speaker B: Tim was. Tim, Mark James were. Were. And Jason Presley were very, were very, very helpful. This is my first wrestling book. I've done other different types of history books, so this was my first one on wrestling and I leaned on them quite a bit for advice and suggestions and all three of them were just very kind. Tim, you were. I'm very grateful for your help and, and for the books that you have written and the history that you have already documented. And I hope, I hope we'll be seeing some more from you in the coming years. [00:46:54] Speaker C: Call our friend Scott till it's over. [00:46:57] Speaker A: There in Scott's desk somewhere. So, yeah, Tim's got the bug, so I'm sure we'll be seeing things from him. And plus, we're talking about stuff on here all the time, giving each other ideas. And those are all guys that I reached out to very early on to talk wrestling history with and to have here on the show. And I'm glad that you are now part of that little family, too. So. [00:47:23] Speaker C: And it's a bigger world than it used to be. Through social media and all, you. You do get a lot more, I think, you know, Kevin was talking about all those websites and message boards from 20, 25 years ago. It seemed like we were, you know, 200 people, you know, sharing a few stuff. But now you get on social media and you see all these groups that have an interest in it and all these new names that keep popping up going, hey, what about this guy? Or what about that guy? And so I think there's at least a little bit of a market for it before we all get too old for, you know. [00:47:58] Speaker A: Well, and I was just thinking about today, Tim, that's a great point. I was just thinking about all the younger people that are paying attention to what we're doing and liking what we're doing, and they're going to pick it up and take it forward and who knows what tools they'll have to work with. So we're always going to. One thing I have discovered, Kevin, is that we're always going to be uncovering some things that we probably wouldn't have ever thought or even imagined was out there. Somebody posted on, I believe it was on my X feed this week. Have we found out everything about wrestling in North America? There is to find out. And I'm like, no, no way. We, we still got tons to, to learn and find out. It's. It's in. [00:48:44] Speaker C: And Kevin mentions this in his book about there's still a lot of Dyersburg to uncover. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. [00:48:51] Speaker C: And how valuable is that city to the whole state of Tennessee as it relates to pro wrestling? And, and Kevin and I both. And we've never been there together, I don't think, but we've been to the state library and archives in, in downtown Nashville and I could live there for, for months going through stuff. [00:49:07] Speaker A: We ought to, we ought to have a meet up there sometime. Kevin doesn't live too far from there and I, I, Yep, I live a couple hours away so we ought to just get on down there sometime for a weekend. [00:49:21] Speaker C: I'll have to dig my card out. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll get one. [00:49:26] Speaker C: It's a beautiful building. They have a great location now. I mean, I love the, I love the old, old location they had too, because it was, it's seem very historic and all, but they've got a great facility there now. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Let's, let's do that. Let's plan to meet up down there sometime and we can have a, a day where we spend there and we can go to lunch and talk and have a good time. All right, Kevin, thanks for coming on. Get the book. Rowdy Red Roberts record book. I almost can't say, say that good thing book doesn't have an R in it. But thank you for joining and Tim and I are going to move on with our show. Thanks. Thanks so much, Kevin. Have a good day. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Thank you, Tony. Thank you, Tim. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Yes, sir. [00:50:05] Speaker B: Appreciate it. [00:50:07] Speaker A: Hey again, everybody. Welcome back to the Richard's Ranch and the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. I'm Tony Richards and back once again by popular Demand. Everyone always asks when Tim's coming back. Tim Deals, Tennessee wrestling historian is back today and we're going to wrap up the year in the Tennessee territory of 1975. Welcome back, Tim. [00:50:27] Speaker C: Hey, thank you. [00:50:28] Speaker A: Good to be here, man. It's good to see you and good to have you back and I always love to talk about the territory that I grew up with and that you grew up with that we call it the Tennessee Territory, which later would be split into halves and would become the Memphis and the Nashville end of the territory. But right now, in 75, it's all one big old monster of a territory. Yeah, we got a lot of things to talk about here at the end of 75. [00:50:58] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot of. A lot of big things happening. Still a little bit away from the split, but. [00:51:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but the seeds of the split are forming. [00:51:08] Speaker C: They are. They are. If you look close, I believe they are. [00:51:12] Speaker A: So let's look back. You had a couple of things from September you still wanted to wrap up before. [00:51:17] Speaker C: Yeah, just a few little things that maybe we didn't really hit real hard on before. I know we get to talking about stuff, and sometimes we. We just leave some things out, but. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah, but we're always coming back, folks. We'll always be back. We'll wrap it up. We'll wrap it up. We'll carry those. We'll carry those angles forward. Don't worry. [00:51:38] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. We try to. Try to get our continuity together here. One of the things that happened in 1975 from a national perspective was the IWA was in existence. And they were. They had some really good talent. Mill Masqueras and Ernie Ladd and Thunderbolt Patterson and Johnny Powers, I think there, and Bob Ellis and Nelson Royal and. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Yeah, Greg Klein and I were just doing the Dallas, Texas territory just a couple of days ago, and Mill Masqueras in the first week of December, I think he was in the main event in Houston. And I asked Greg, I said, in Paul Bosch's Sam Houston Coliseum, did Mel Masters come to the ring wearing the IWA world title belt? Like, I wonder if that happened. [00:52:36] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, he. He held onto that thing for years. You would see him years later, had. [00:52:41] Speaker A: His name engraved on it. [00:52:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:44] Speaker A: He was the. He was the only world champion for him, I think. [00:52:47] Speaker C: Yes, I believe was. I know that. Was it the IWA title or North American title? Either way, he was the only champion they had. And it kind of speaks highly of his potential. Somebody thought highly enough of him to. To put him in that position. A mask wrestler, number one. And the Mexican wrestlers, the second time. You know, the second thing. But he was popular. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Wow. [00:53:11] Speaker C: He was popular and did some amazing moves at the time. [00:53:14] Speaker A: Oh, man. You'd go to the. Well, I went to the local drugstore. That's where the magazine rack was when I was a kid. And every other magazine had a photo of him. On the COVID Yes. [00:53:25] Speaker C: Great physique. The mask and the outfit were always amazing too. Very good visual. But in the ring he was, he was interesting too. Now, I know a lot of people didn't like to work against him because he didn't give you a whole lot apparently. But. But you know that he was made the champion of this group and this group had a lot of money behind them. Probably in your hometown. The IWA TV show aired and if you've never seen it, go to YouTube and look up the IWA 1975. And there's stuff out there. But what was interesting to me is some of those guys came through for a few weeks after the IWA. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Kind. [00:54:08] Speaker C: Of lost their funding. Eddie Einhorn out of Chicago, a media mogul from Chicago, funded the IWA for a long time. And I, I guess at just some point he was like, this is a losing effort. Pulled his money out. And so some of the big name talent left behind and, or left. And two of. At least two of those guys ended up coming through Tennessee real briefly in 1975. And it's almost like. You mean they were on a card for Nick Gulas and Roy Welch. And because it just. Their names just they don't seem to be folks that would make an appearance there. And those people are Rip Hawk and Ivan Koloff. And Rip, in earlier days had been a big star up in Evansville and Louisville, which at that time was not part of the Gas Welch territory. But Rip came through for a few, a few shows and Kloff did too. Now Koloff is interesting to me at this point because he had been the guy that had defeated Bruno San Martino in 71. And here he is, you know, working a, a second card match in Chattanooga, you know, in September of 75. He did work some. I think he, he did work a few main events here and there, but he wasn't here long and moved on. And, but it's just one of those things where you often, back in the day when we did a lot of message board stuff, you'd get a lot of questions. What did so and so work for? So and so? [00:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:33] Speaker C: Well, there's you too. There's you two, Rip Hawk and Ivan Koloff did work for Nick Gulas. And there's a third one that wasn't associated with the iwa, but was an interesting pick too, and that's Pepper Gomez. [00:55:45] Speaker A: And they really put Pepper over. [00:55:47] Speaker C: And they did. They put Pepper over big for about two months. [00:55:50] Speaker A: And. And Tim, I. The other day I was Just going through. And as I go through week to week, I just look back to 65 and 55. But. But Pepper Gomez, they put him over in 65, as well as a tag team partner with Jackie Fargo. So he. He had been in the territory and at least in Nashville. [00:56:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:12] Speaker A: And on the. Nashville television. As a matter of fact, I think he was one of the guys who worked the fairgrounds arena when they first went there in 65. They left the hippodrome and went over to the fairgrounds. [00:56:25] Speaker C: Wow. I didn't realize that. I have to go back and look at. Yeah. [00:56:28] Speaker A: But he never stays long, you know, six weeks, something like that. [00:56:32] Speaker C: You know, that was about it. And like you said, they put him over big, and he had this angle that I believe he ran maybe the first time. If it wasn't the first time, it was the biggest time. He had the gimmick of having the cast iron stomach. He could punch him and in the stomach and he wouldn't budge, and he'd just kind of laugh it off. And. And so they ran an angle in. In Northern California with Ray Stevens, where Ray, you know, said, well, I'll just jump off the rope onto top rope onto your stomach. And of course, he comes across his throat. And that set off the. The feud between Stevens and. And Gomez. So they did a. A variation of that angle here and in Tennessee with the interns and Dr. Ken Ramey. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Wow. [00:57:18] Speaker C: And. And I remember them doing it on Chattanooga tv, and they did it. I believe it was one of the interns. It might have been Raimi, but I believe it was one of the interns coming off a step ladder in the ring. I don't know why they didn't do it. I don't know. Maybe one of the interns didn't feel good about flying across the ring. [00:57:37] Speaker A: I think we've mentioned this before, but if you haven't caught our earlier shows, if you're just tuning in and this is the first Tennessee show you've caught of ours, they had so many live television shows around. They had four or five of them around the territory where they did the show actually live in the studio. So they'd have to do that angle four and five times on television. They. They'd do it in Nashville, then they'd go do it in Memphis, then they'd go do it in Birmingham, and then they'd go do it in Chattanooga. So, you know, if you had all those on tape, which we don't, but if you did, you'd. It'd be interesting to See that angle being done five and six times. [00:58:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah, I would love that. And that. The other part about putting Pepper over is they paired him with Jackie Fargo. He was Jackie Fargo and Pepper Gomez against the interns for several weeks. So. [00:58:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:32] Speaker C: And like you said, Pepper's only around about a month, six weeks, maybe eight weeks. [00:58:36] Speaker A: And for fans who were older than us back then, they had again, I just got to believe they had seen those two together 10 years before in 65. [00:58:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:48] Speaker A: And so it made sense to the older adult fans, even though we were like, oh, my God, it's Pepper Gomez. You know, we never, never seen him before because he was a favorite of Roy Shire, like you said. And he was out in San Francisco. [00:59:03] Speaker C: Quite a bit huge in. In Northern California and Texas. And I believe up in Indiana in the wwa, he probably had some runs there. And at some point, either before or after this, he had a run with the southern title in Florida. [00:59:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:18] Speaker C: For. For a time. I get my years. [00:59:20] Speaker A: It was right around now. [00:59:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Because Harley Race was booking and he. He brought him in. Yep, sure did. [00:59:28] Speaker C: So. So there's some guys that you may not have ever thought worked the territory in the. At least in the 70s. And we found out Pepper worked there before. And so that's all good. And, and, and all three. Well, I'm gonna say all three of these guys, RIP RIP still worked for a while, I think, in Texas. And Pepper worked a little bit longer too. But one thing, guys, we drew some money right there. Those three guys. [00:59:52] Speaker A: Yeah. One thing that I was accustomed to during this time period in September, because we lived so close and fairs were huge around here. County, county fairs. And then going to the state fair was a big deal here. It was always in Louisville. But in Tennessee, Nashville was where they held the fair every year. [01:00:15] Speaker C: Yeah, they held one in Memphis too, in September. Both always held in September. And you may be going, well, what's the big deal when it comes to pro wrestling? Well, where were the cards held in Nashville at the fairgrounds. And so the fairgrounds were taken over by a bunch of other carnies. Right. We were talking Carney's earlier, before the show. And, and so in Nashville, that usually covered at least a two week period. And so for Nick and Roy in Nashville, what do you do when the fair comes to town. [01:00:48] Speaker B: Town. [01:00:48] Speaker C: And takes over your venue? And so, you know, there were a number of different things that they tried this year in 75, they ran at the auditorium downtown. [01:00:58] Speaker A: And folks, contrary to what you may believe or have believed, they didn't build the Mid South Coliseum just for wrestling. No, no, it was out at the fairgrounds. [01:01:10] Speaker C: Fairgrounds, exactly. And so that would also happen in Memphis office. I'm trying to think, was it called the Mid South Fair? Yeah. And so it usually took a week or two in. In September as well. And I noticed this year when I was going through this, that on September 22, which is a Monday in 75, they did not run a show in Memphis. They just chose not to run a show. Could have been. Because the other venue that they would have ran could have been booked or, you know, who knows? [01:01:44] Speaker A: And because if you're not familiar with the geography, Nashville is centrally located in Tennessee, and then Memphis is down in the southwest corner of Tennessee. So that Mid South Fair would have drawn Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri. I mean, it drew from all those states around, surrounding Memphis. [01:02:07] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, that's a little more pronounced, I guess, for those fans who are familiar with a 80s when. When that they would come to town and you're maybe watching old clips on YouTube and they talk about, you know, the card coming up at the Cook Convention Center. You're like, why? Well, it's because the fairgrounds and the. The fairgrounds were busy that week. And so the Coliseum would have been either being in use. In use, or there would be no parking there for you. [01:02:42] Speaker A: And I think Jerry. Didn't Jerry Jarrett run there when he first split? [01:02:48] Speaker C: I think he did run a show. [01:02:51] Speaker A: Coliseum contract, I think. [01:02:53] Speaker C: Oh, you're talking about running at the Con at the Cook Convention. [01:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah, he ran there for a little while until Nick kind of couldn't run Memphis anymore. [01:03:01] Speaker C: Yes. [01:03:01] Speaker A: And. [01:03:02] Speaker C: And there's a whole bunch of that. I'm sure we'll probably delve into them a little bit of. You know, to me, that's one of the more fascinating parts about wrestling wars is the fight over a venue. [01:03:16] Speaker A: Yep. [01:03:16] Speaker C: Because your venue, I think, is so, so important. [01:03:19] Speaker A: And. [01:03:19] Speaker C: And I wonder about, you know, how did they draw at the auditorium in Nashville? Because they had run now for a decade or so at the fairgrounds. [01:03:30] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:03:31] Speaker C: And the fairgrounds in the auditorium are not close. I mean, you know, so you, you could be drawing a completely different audience. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And. [01:03:39] Speaker C: Or. Or one that doesn't show up. [01:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. You've got to have the components all in place. You got to have a town, you got to have a town promoter. You got to have a building, and you got to have television. Those are all things that are really important. And even back in these days, you still in some towns had to Have a sponsor? [01:03:59] Speaker C: Yes, yes. Yeah. And usually they. They wrap that up pretty quick, but still, you had to have it. You had to have that sponsor, which in Tennessee was one of the veterans organizations. So it had to be a VFW hall or some type of veterans organization that had to. That. That took a cut of the money. Not much, but usually a cut of money every week. [01:04:23] Speaker A: One thing about your particular, you know, the way you do wrestling history, Tim, is. And I. It's something I'm very thankful for and fascinated by is you were very interested in the governmental aspects of wrestling history. And you have in your notes about a bill that was pushed in Alabama to allow wrestling on Sundays for. For wrestling fans who don't know, back in these days, they still, in the south primarily didn't run on Sundays. [01:04:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that was the day you went to church and that was the day you probably visited family on Sundays and. And businesses were closed. I grew up in a small town where a lot of businesses closed at noon on Wednesday. [01:05:13] Speaker A: Wow. [01:05:13] Speaker C: You know, they've just, I don't know, part of. Part of the culture there. And so, yeah, it's interesting, you know, there was some. Something on the books where you could not run a wrestling show on Sundays in Alabama. The interesting part about it is Alabama had a gentleman named Tom Drake in the legislature. Tom was a lawyer from Coleman, Alabama, which is up in the northern part of the state. But Tom had also spent many years as a wrestler, and he was a decorated athlete at the University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, and eventually a lawyer. But he did some wrestling on the side. And from what I can gather, the. This bill in particular was not his bill. You know, I mean, that would really look a little hinky, wouldn't it? I mean, if it was him pushing it through, but he. He supported it. So you probably in. In your research, I'm sure that prior to. I'm not sure exactly when the bill went over 75 or 76. I don't have that with me right now, but I. I do remember when it happened. I've seen it in. In some of my research. Prior to then, you didn't see any kind of show on Sunday, but after that you might see a Birmingham show on Sunday or. I don't know if they ran Sundays in Montgomery, but you would see one every now and then on Sunday from that point forward. [01:06:43] Speaker A: And that was pretty much every state in the South. I mean, they didn't absolutely. They didn't run on Sundays, and in some cases, wrestling didn't run at all on Sundays. Anywhere, but in California they did, and in the Northeast they did. But it's at least 76 and into 77 before you see any wrestling on Sunday days. [01:07:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. When I, when I gather results, I gather it by the day, you know, each individual day in a year. And so I've got files that date back into the, you know, through the decades. And almost every week on a Sunday. There's nothing in that file. [01:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's going to be an easy research day. Sunday. [01:07:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:26] Speaker A: Until, until you get to the late 70s for sure. [01:07:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Now the other thing that's interesting, we've mentioned about 75 in our previous shows is that for most of 1975, a few months at the beginning and now at this particular point in time, there's been no Jerry Lawler in Tennessee wrestling. Yeah, he, he's been in Florida working under a mask as one of the mass superstars. He's been in Georgia tagging with Don Green and doing some singles wrestling. And he never really broke the mid card in those territories. So he. And stories vary about why he's not here at this time. It's hard to figure out the timing of things because people's memory is a little bit foggy. A lot of people say it was because he, he said he didn't want to work smaller towns or something like that. And Jerry Jarrett, who's booking the western end, sent him out of the territory to humble him, I guess. Yeah, but, but he's coming back here at this particular, at this particular time frame, and he's coming back in kind of an unusual manner. Right? [01:08:39] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a couple of things that, that take place in September. And can we talk about the, the, the battle with the DJ maybe a little bit later? Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, sure, we'll talk about that. Happened in September, but we'll get to that a little bit and expound on it a little bit more maybe than what I'm. What you and I are about to talk about here, and that is Jerry Lawler got into a, into politics a little bit here at the end of September when Memphis had a city council election coming up. And a gentleman by the name of Silky Sullivan. You want, you want that guy on your city council, right? Well, Silky Sullivan was running for city council and obviously if you know anything about Memphis, you understand that Silky was a character. He was one of those town characters type. In the story that I read about is that Silky Liquor by the Drink came into Memphis at some point in the early 70s in the first place, that had liquor by the drink in Memphis was a TGI Fridays. And so Silky went over there expecting to be able to run a tab, you know, and they said, no, you got to pay. You got to pay. We're not running a tab for you. And so supposedly he said, well, I'll go open my own place. And went across the street in Overton Square and opened up a place called Silky Sullivan's. And it was a hit. And so Silky became a character, one of those town characters, one of those guys that. That people gravitated to. And. And apparently Jerry Lawler knew him and approved of Silky's run for. For city council. And. And Silky did not win, by the way. But. And. And Silky Sullivan passed away several years ago. But if you go to Beale street now, there's a place called Silky o', Sullivan's which is a descendant of. Of the original location in Overton Square. [01:10:44] Speaker A: From my understanding, can you imagine a character like Silky Sullivan running for city council and being promoted by a wrestler? [01:10:51] Speaker C: Yes, yes. I mean, I'll send you the ad. The ad with Silky wearing the crown. [01:10:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be awesome. [01:11:01] Speaker C: Yeah, it's great. [01:11:02] Speaker A: And then. [01:11:02] Speaker C: And of course, we know Lawler eventually did run for mayor of Memphis. [01:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. [01:11:07] Speaker C: That's an interesting thing. A little bit of foreshadowing there. [01:11:11] Speaker A: And then also, at the end of September, you found in your newspaper research, there's a article in the Jackson, Tennessee newspaper about a young man from Lexington, Tennessee, who's. Whose father at this particular time in September, October, November of 1975, his dad is working in the Amarillo territory, and his name's Tommy Gilbert, and he's working in Amarillo under the name Johnny Star, for whatever reason. I don't know why that is. But there's an article you found that talks about a young Eddie Gilbert, right? [01:11:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think he was 14 at the time, in the eighth or ninth grade. And he contacted the. A columnist with a Jackson son showing an interest in journalism and writing. And so this columnist spent part of a day with Eddie Gilbert, and it talks about that and talks about what a interesting, creative young man Eddie Gilbert is. And. And of course, as I read it, I could. I could see that this gentleman saw in Eddie what a lot of us saw in Eddie during his career, that he was creative, that he was the, you know, the ability to. To think things through and write things. And. And he was already on that way to being a creative force. Just which. Which direction would he go? And he went into pro wrestling and. And was one of the interesting creative minds of the 80s and into the early 90s. [01:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, I've heard other Jim Cornette's talked about on his podcast that knowing Eddie back and when they were teenagers and Jim was a photographer and Eddie would be back there trying to book the card, you know, and in the backstage of the television or whatever, and he's just part of one of those Tennessee wrestling families, you know, that people knew. So why wouldn't he be in the wrestling business, you know? [01:13:18] Speaker C: Yes. And of course Doug, the younger brother, got involved a little bit later on as well, probably because of the, the love of it from Tommy and Eddie. But it's interesting, you know, in 1975, here you see something about it again. I can remember running across that clip going, wait a minute, Eddie was nowhere near the ring at that point, but it wasn't long, you know, what, three, four years. And Eddie was in the ring. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Another guy, you don't really associate that much with Tennessee wrestling, but he's in here. He's actually doing the booking in Florida. And as Harley race and he's. They put him, they put the Mid America title on him, which was kind of Nick's side of the territories championship. Right? [01:14:05] Speaker C: It was. And, and Harley wasn't around. But a few shows, I believe I'm really meant to look at this. I believe there's a show in October in Memphis where Harley's on the show as Mid America champion. [01:14:20] Speaker A: Well, they have a, they have a title versus title match. It's the Mongolian Stomper who's the Southern champion. [01:14:27] Speaker C: Right. [01:14:28] Speaker A: And the Harley Race, who's the Mid America champion in a title versus title match. And of course Stomper wins that match because he's in the territory. [01:14:38] Speaker C: Yeah. And I want to say that in there is a Memphis card in October where Mike and Eddie Graham are on the show. So it makes you wonder if maybe there was some talk and some discussion between the two territories there. [01:14:50] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure there was because Stomper had been the southern champion in Florida for the whole summer. [01:14:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:57] Speaker A: And I mean I love the Mongolian Stomper and I love him even more after study in 1975 because yes, he just has an amazing year. [01:15:07] Speaker C: He does. [01:15:08] Speaker A: And was, was the top heel. And then he, he's, after he gets finished here, he's going to go to Texas. But yeah, that was a race in Stomper, title versus title match, which would have been in those days with the two of them, the way they could work, that would have been a great match. To see. [01:15:24] Speaker C: Yes. And the Mid America title, as you said, is one that eventually really becomes associated with Nick's end, when Nick is still in business. And they resurrected in. In the 80s, Jerry did for a while, when you had. When everybody had to have a title, apparently, to get over it seemed like everybody had a championship. That Mid America title. If you look back, you can go back into the 50s and find out that Buddy Rogers was a champion. [01:15:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:51] Speaker C: In the territory for a time. [01:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:53] Speaker B: They used. [01:15:54] Speaker A: I mean, they used the Southern title as the major singles title on the western end that Jarrett was booking, and then they used the Mid America title on the Chattanooga, Nashville, Birmingham end as the major singles title. And I had a conversation with somebody who was following me on X the other day, had never heard of the Mid America title. And, you know, and as we get older and as we get younger. Younger fans, I mean, that's gonna happen. Where. That's why this stuff is so important to keep. Well, it's important to me. It might not be majorly important, but it's important to me to keep these things out there. [01:16:30] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I agree. [01:16:32] Speaker A: I agree. And then the guy was. He was saying, well, I don't know if it was an NWA title or not. I'm like, oh, my God, Nobody loved being an NWA member more than Nick Gulas. [01:16:41] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:16:42] Speaker A: He probably had it tattooed somewhere, you know, but, yeah, the stomper was on top. And then he's going to get challenged by another guy who's coming off a Florida run, who's coming directly from Florida, a guy that I voted for in the observer hall of Fame voting this year, and that's Bob Armstrong. [01:17:02] Speaker C: Yeah, Bob the Fighting Fireman from Marietta. Great talent. Bob Armstrong may be the prototypical baby face of the 70s and 80s to me. I mean, he's. Man, could he talk. I mean, he would give a great. Any kind of. Just a great interview. Just fire you up, get you excited about it. And he was fun to watch in the ring, too. He was just one of my favorites. [01:17:31] Speaker A: I've always said that all of his sons got parts of him, but none of them got everything, you know, and. [01:17:39] Speaker C: Right. [01:17:39] Speaker A: And I had seven votes in the historical category, and I had six of them, and I had one spot open. And it came down to trying to decide whether to vote for Bob Armstrong or Ole Anderson. And I voted for Bob because of this right here, this run in Tennessee, because Bob was over in Alabama, he was over in Georgia, he was over in Florida, he was over in the Carolinas. He Was on top. He drew money, he was a booker, he was a matchmaker, he had a great interview. And because of that, I voted for him. Hopefully I'll have extra votes that I can use for Oli next year. But, but, I mean, Oli primarily wrestled the Carolinas and Georgia and little spot spots, places in Florida, but Bob was over in all those major southern territories. [01:18:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And the big part of the reason he was over was the Mongolian Stomper. That feud, when you think about it, I believe they may have worked against each other in Florida, but they worked it here, they worked at Knoxville, they worked it in the Gulf coast, and it never got old. I mean, they could, you know, and ran it for years. I mean, they would resurrect it a few years later in some territory, and it never got old. And they were maybe ideal for one another. You know, you. The Mongolian Stomper had those, was billed as having some of those, I guess, some type of martial arts ability. The Shana Domaki, you know, it was obviously meant to be something along those lines, but you had Bob Armstrong, who had martial arts training in the Marines, you know, as we were told. So you had a lot of little built inside stories that made them ideal for one another. [01:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Talk a little bit about the Norvell Austin and Jerry Jarrett program. [01:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah, so Jerry Jarrett was active in the ring a good deal during 1975. And, you know, Jerry's entering career, kind of hit and miss at times, you know, and, and, and I guess he's coming off, you know, booking a good deal in Georgia. And so I don't know, maybe he just wanted back in the ring. Maybe he thought they needed. He needed to be in the ring. One of the things he done earlier in the year, we, I believe we talked about this, was he and George Goulis were a team. And then after that, he and Norvell Austin were a team. And it's, it's interesting because Norvell had been in the territory earlier in the 70s with the notorious, but Nick Monroe is a heel team and a pretty good heel team at that point. And Norvell was very young at that point too, when he came with, with Sputnik, but when you got him here, he originally comes in as a fan favorite. And so Norvell and Jerry are a tag team for a few months. And then what do you do with tag team partners? You turn them on each other. And so they have several weeks worth of a feud here. I believe it came down maybe some chain. They ended up with some chain matches or whatever in the fall. And then Jerry, of course, stays in. Norvell, I believe, at this point, goes on over to Knoxville to work with Ron Fuller. But Jerry Jarrett's connection with Norvell Austin is interesting, too, because Norvell will work for Jerry again in, in the next few years over on the Memphis Inn. And I believe probably for Nick. This may have been the last time Norvell was in. In the territory for him after the split. I don't know that he ever came back. [01:21:21] Speaker A: Don Carson is in the territory and he's working in a tag team with Jackie Fargo against possibly one of the best Southern tag teams of all time, Phil Hickerson and Dennis Condrey. I know that when the Mongolian Stomper goes to Texas, I think Bearcat Wright was Mongolian Stompers manager for most of 75. [01:21:48] Speaker C: Yes. [01:21:48] Speaker A: But Don Carson had been with him, I believe, previous. But somehow or another, J.J. dillon ends up being his manager in Texas and Carson, he. What happens to him? I know at some point he gets in law enforcement or something, doesn't he? [01:22:07] Speaker C: Yeah. I believe Don at some point had stepped away from wrestling and he was working in the Chattanooga area in a town called Cleveland, which is about 20 miles east of Chattanooga. [01:22:23] Speaker A: I think that's his hometown. [01:22:25] Speaker C: Yes, I, I have, I have, I have an article somewhere where he said he was born in a town called Udaw, which is halfway between Cleveland and Chattanooga. But, you know, it's right, like right on the. The county border, so somewhere over in that area. And so Cleveland would. Was probably what he considered home. And he was working for the police department over there. And, and I don't know, the, the appeal, you know, what got him back. I. I don't know. He comes working again and maybe August and September slowly building up and. And then I ran, I think around in October, he and Fargo team up and they take on Hickerson and Condrey. And Carson's a great. Carson's one of my favorites too. He. That skin, he's skinny guy, you know, that rattly croaky voice. And the glove with that, he would. And it wasn't just a glove, like went right here. I mean, you know, sometimes that glove went right down to the elbow almost. [01:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it looked like one of those you use with a bird or something. [01:23:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I've never thought of that. You're right. And he, you know, he would load that thing and use it. Called it peanut butter. You know, he'd refer to it as peanut butter and in some territories and he would Conk you out. Don had had a interesting career before this section and before the rest of his career, which really kicks off at this point. He's a very important part of west coast wrestling in the late 60s and 70s because he was a tag team partner, Freddy Blassie. And then when the promotion decided to turn Freddy Blassie into a fan favorite, who was the guy that, that he worked against? He was Don Carson. So you've got to have a foe that can, you know, turn you into something that the fans want. And that guy was Don Carson. And he worked out there for, for quite a while, but most of his career he, he was centered in the South Gulf Coast. He was a huge, huge star down there before this and of course here in Tennessee. And one of the things that just popped in my head in 68, maybe Don Carson had a brother in Tennessee named Ron, and that guy was Dick Murdoch. [01:24:44] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [01:24:46] Speaker C: Yeah. They think for a little while, I think they teamed in the Gulf coast too. And so Don works around the south for a few years and disappears. And then he shows up here again and works for a few months for Nick and Roy and then moves on to work for Ron Fuller in Knoxville. And at that point, his career, he's back and forth with a few forays. He went into Georgia at some point with the Stomper, but Robert Fuller was booking then, and I think he ended up in the Southwest promotion and I think he retired out in San Antonio. [01:25:22] Speaker A: Somewhere in the late 60s. He and Dick Dunn were a big time team. [01:25:26] Speaker C: Yes. [01:25:26] Speaker A: Dick Dunn under a mask as the Red Shadow. [01:25:29] Speaker C: Shadow. Yes. Good call. I forgot about that. Yes, they were a huge draw. [01:25:33] Speaker A: And Don Carson was just an amazing interview. I mean, just such good stick man, which is why he had a good career as a manager as well. [01:25:44] Speaker C: He was a good, I mean, he could put your words out there. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Good. [01:25:48] Speaker C: But he had that distinctive voice that also grabbed you. You know, a lot of people have that ability to talk and to bring you in, but he had that added mixture of that voice that would, that would grab you, that you just had to pay attention to him. [01:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah. You made mention in your thing that you sent me about some of the things you want to talk about. But there's a team in here called the Pittsburgh Steelers. And it's spelled like you steal something. Pittsburgh Steelers. Like they were thieves or something. [01:26:25] Speaker C: You know, everybody has a guilty pleasure, you know, when you look at some of this stuff. And this is one of mine. I, I don't know anything about these guys, but I Remember them being billed and maybe even seeing them on television, because I think they were black and gold like the Pittsburgh Steelers football team, NFL team. And I don't know, I don't know who came up with it, but they were, they were a heel team called the Pittsburgh Steelers S T E A L E R S. And they were around for a few months. And that's just one of those. I don't know who came up with the idea, but, you know, a year or two earlier we had the mass Godfathers, which was apparent takeoff on the movie the Godfather. And so here we have, I guess, some other attempt to put a team in there, and they never really got a push. But Nick Google is always had these tag teams, the Crimson Terrors, masks, suits, everywhere. Yes, he did. And there's no telling who was a Pittsburgh Steeler during this time. It wasn't Franco Harris and Terry Bradshaw, though. [01:27:27] Speaker A: I can't, I mean, I can't imagine how we've been able to uncover the identities of some of these people as much as we have, you know, you know, intern number 32, you know, but yeah, he, he would book these teams in all these towns and they were different people under masks and body suits, and he must have had 50 combinations of those things. [01:27:52] Speaker C: Oh, he had to. Yes. [01:27:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Mongolian stomper loses a loser leave town match with Bob Armstrong. And then so Mongolian stompers off to. To Texas and then Armstrong and Lawler kind of team up there for a while. [01:28:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:28:12] Speaker A: And. And then there's a heel turn where Jerry Lawler turns on Bob Armstrong and they, they had been in a program with Dr. Ken Ramey and the interns. Right. And. And Lawler Lawler turned on Armstrong and Lawler goes back with Sam Bass is what I'm trying to get to. [01:28:32] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think part of it was maybe there was some competition or some idea about an NWA title match in the background. And maybe the two of the top contenders for it were Lawler and Armstrong. And I may be, I may be imagining that. [01:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:48] Speaker C: But that might have been what caused the friction. And, but, you know, you do that and you, you. They move seamlessly. Interestingly enough, to putting the interns in another feud that's with Eddie Marlin and Bill Dundee. But then you've got the Lawler Armstrong feud, which was another big feud. And one of the first matches that Jerry Jarrett promoted on his own in Memphis was Lawler Armstrong. So it had some pull. [01:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A lot of, A lot of energy to a callback right. To this, this time. Period for. Yeah, yeah, 18 months. But. But right in there. So now, when. Let me ask you, because I don't remember, but Jerry Lawler and Bill Dundee teamed for a little while or in certain towns or whatever. Were they both baby faces? That was before the term, I suppose. [01:29:43] Speaker C: Dundee Dundee remained a heel until, I believe, around October in Memphis. And from what I remember, it was one of those deals where the interns are putting the beat down on Eddie Marlin on television. And so you've got probably Lance Russell pleading with somebody to come out and help. Come out and help. And somebody had to convince Bill Dundee to go in there just to break everything up. Right, right. Not, you know, not to just. Just get them to stop. And. And of course, the interns didn't like that and begin wailing on Dundee. And. And so that brings Dundee into the. Into the. Into the feud with Marlon against the interns, but in turn flips Dundee to be a fan favorite also. [01:30:34] Speaker A: There's the beginning of some careers here that people will be familiar with, I think. Think Tommy Rich's rookie year was in 75. But then also a guy who was trained by Herb Welch over in his barn on his farm, Dr. D. David Schultz, is. Is making his appearances here in 75. [01:30:54] Speaker C: Yeah, you get. You begin to see him here, and he. He begins to really come into his own sum in 76 that we'll see. You know, and there are some shows over in Blythe, I think Blytheville or maybe Jonesboro, I can't remember which, where you'll see somebody called Rhode Island Red. In Rhode Island Red is David Schultz. And so the early days here, and like you said, somebody training him who knows what they're doing and who not only knows what they're doing, knows what to do in the territory. Right. Herb Welch, who, you know, you date back to the 30s at this point, 40 years of experience in the ring, and you're being trained by Herb Welch. [01:31:36] Speaker A: And I did the. I've been doing a whole lot of Welch family research, and when I was delving into that, David said that Herb would shoot with him. Yeah, that's how he broke him in. And for those of you who don't know, shoot means real. He would put real holds on him and he would really hurt him, and he would really put the. Put the. Whatever hooks were there were on him. And then after a certain time when he figured David was going to stick with it, he goes, okay, forget everything we've done so far, because if you do. If you do any of that Nobody's going to want to work with you. So let me teach you how to be a pro wrestler then. [01:32:17] Speaker C: And you know, David Schultz we consider to be one of the no nonsense tough guys. Oh my gosh, can you imagine that? You know, you had to go through that with a guy like Herb Welch. I mean, how tough does that make her? [01:32:30] Speaker A: Welch? I got to meet David this last May in St. Louis at the St. Louis hall of Fame. And I didn't really know what to expect because you never know where the lines are between character Personas and real people. And I walked away from talking to David Schultz for about 10 minutes. There's not a lot of difference between David Schultz on television or at the matches and David Schultz in real life. [01:32:58] Speaker C: I can just see what you get. [01:32:59] Speaker A: That's it, man. That's it. And I think those are the best ones. [01:33:03] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:33:04] Speaker A: A guy who held the United States Junior Heavyweight Championship, which was a title just under the world Junior title in the southern territories in Georgia and Alabama, things like that. Bill Ash, he is making his debut working around here too. [01:33:21] Speaker C: And Bill, Bill and David Schultz, former team in 76, pretty good tag team too. And Bill bounced around mostly southern territories. I think he worked maybe the West Coast a little bit. A lot of people in the business. No, Bill Ash as the guy that you called for your boots or some of your ring attire because he ran that business for years. He and. And maybe his father or grandfather, I can't recall which ran, and the name escapes me right now, but we'll. We'll figure that out later. But. But Bill did that too. And you see him here. And I did. One of the things I saw is you. We were talking about the Pittsburgh Steelers a minute ago. One of the other mass tag teams that you see a lot of in the fall is a team called the Golden Hawks. You know, who in the world I don't know. I did see in one town that Bill Ash was billed as an ex Golden Hawk. So Bill probably worked under a mask a good deal this year during his, you know, initial foray into the business. He could have been a Pittsburgh Steeler too, who knows? But according to this, in some towns he was a. Worked under Damascus, a Golden Hawk. [01:34:32] Speaker A: So we also, not only do we get all these hundreds of performers that are around the Tennessee territory with all the towns that they run, but we also get, you know, the NWA champion comes in from time to time, and also we get other big draws. So we got the chic here in 75 against Lawler for a couple of cards one. November 3rd in Memphis and November 14th in Huntsville. And it was probably about as you would imagine, the 8 to 10 minute chic match. [01:35:04] Speaker C: You know, you hope, you hope you got that much right. [01:35:07] Speaker A: Well, and a lot of it takes place before the bell and after the bell. [01:35:11] Speaker C: That's right, that's right. Yeah, I found it. You know, seeing Memphis always got some of those guys that nobody else got, you know, like the Chic or, or at times when they were running a program with Lawler to build him up for a world title match, you know, Bobo Brazil would come in or Jack Briscoe or, or one of the Funks in the Chic was one of those guys. But it really surprised me, the November 14th card in Huntsville, because you didn't, you didn't think about that often about Huntsville being a town where the Sheik would, would be at, at this point in his career. You know, you, you, you go a few years into the future in the Chic. A lot of folks don't want to use him. A lot of folks didn't want to use him anyway. But at this point, he still had some pull, he still had some, some drawing ability about him here. And I'm sure that the folks in Hustle, like, man, the Sheik's coming to town. [01:36:05] Speaker A: Well, not only that, but you would think it would be in Louisville or one of the nights, the next night, you know what I mean? But it's, it's the next week and it's the Friday night town. [01:36:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:36:18] Speaker A: In Huntsville. So it's, it's like 10 days later. So that's, that's funny that he would come in just for that shot in Huntsville. [01:36:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it is. And I'll have to go back and look at some more of those cards at that point. I didn't see him there, but I may have missed one or two. Who knows? [01:36:37] Speaker A: And then Lawler and Armstrong, they're going strong over the Southern title. Lots of, lots of back and forth on that. And again, that's why I voted for Bob because he, he carried the Southern title and helped bring Lawler back into the territory. And they drew really good, good money. You got a mention of Murfreesboro card here with Lawler and George Goulas being tag team partners. Seems really odd to me. Versus bounty hunters in Murphy's, which. Just outside, just outside Nashville. [01:37:11] Speaker C: Right. That's one of those trivia questions. Did Nick, Did George Goulis and Jerry Lawler ever tag team? Well, they were scheduled to in Murfreesboro. 11, 13, 75. [01:37:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, Murfreesboro, that's just kind of a suburb of Nashville, just. Just outside. And then November 19, Lawler and Jackie Fargo as a team against Hickerson and Condri. [01:37:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And. [01:37:40] Speaker A: I don't. [01:37:41] Speaker C: You know, you don't see Lawler and Fargo teaming a whole lot, and I. I found that to be interesting. Fargo, Fargo was very. Still very active at this point in. In the territory, particularly on the eastern side. And he usually worked against Phil Hickerson and Dennis Condre. He and Hickerson and Condre against Fargo and somebody for months on end was a huge draw. And. And particularly he and Hickerson at this point, which makes sense when you think about it, because Fargo is really good on the mic. He could bring you in. And Hickerson was pretty good on the mic, too. So those two mouthpieces going after one another. [01:38:22] Speaker A: We also got Andre the Giant in the territory, and we got an Andre the Giant versus the Sheikh match. [01:38:31] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:38:33] Speaker A: November 10th, which I guess that's why the Chic is in town that week. [01:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:38:38] Speaker A: Tight with that Nutsville card up there. [01:38:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that would be that week. And that's one of those matches. Where did they hold that match, that match? I know they had a couple. Maybe in Toronto. [01:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that. That actually was the beginning of the Sheik's decline. [01:38:54] Speaker C: Yes. [01:38:54] Speaker A: When he wouldn't put Andre over in Toronto in 74. [01:39:00] Speaker C: That would be an interesting study to see how many times they worked against each other and where and who. Who would have thought that Memphis would have been one of those places? [01:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I wouldn't have. Until you sent this. I wouldn't have thought about it at all. [01:39:14] Speaker C: I just stumbled across it. I thought, what? [01:39:16] Speaker A: What? [01:39:16] Speaker C: That's on this show? [01:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's in Birmingham. The Next night on November 11, Birmingham, Alabama, Jackie Fargo and Andre against Hickerson and Condrey. Yeah. And then on the 12th, it's Andre and Jackie Fargo against Hickerson and Condre. And then again in Knoxville, Chattanooga was the 13th, and the Chattanooga on the 13th. Yeah. So he worked all the bigger towns that week with Jackie. I would. I would love to have those TV interviews. [01:39:47] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. And I believe. I believe somebody in maybe the Chattanooga wrestling Facebook group may have some pictures of Fargo and Andre together from. From around this time frame, which would be, you know, maybe the closest thing we have, as opposed to actually having the video. Video of it. But yeah, he finished up the week by working in Knox. Well, I think he worked about a royal there. But at this point, you could probably only get him for a week in the territory if you got him that much. And I think they probably made pretty good use of him. You know, Memphis, Birmingham, Nashville, Chattanooga, those are probably your four largest draws at that point. [01:40:35] Speaker A: I can just hear Fargo now. I've got somebody with me. Pally. [01:40:39] Speaker C: Yes. [01:40:40] Speaker A: You're going to find out when I bring my partner. Pally. Also, you made mention of this referee who is a heel referee in the territory, and that was something that you didn't really see all that often back in these days. No, they really were. And I was talking to. I guess it was me and you and McCann the other day when we were talking about how the. The referee was really involved in the matches in the 30s and, and the 40s, and then that they got away from that where they didn't want to put any heat on the referee. But then here in 75, we actually have a heel referee. [01:41:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And I, I don't remember a great deal about how that that came about other than he was caught and he was forced into tag matches. You know, it was a promotion pay, you know, getting, getting payback on him for being a bad referee and sticking him in there. But Tennessee's notorious about putting heat, a little bit of heat on the referee at times. Those poor guys like Bobby Sloan and, and Paul Morton and. And Tommy Marlin, you know, we're to blame for a lot of what shouldn't have happened or did happen in, in this guy Paul Maxwell was, was, did this heel referee gimmick for maybe a month or so. [01:42:04] Speaker A: He works some matches, then talk about the, the Chattanooga television angle where Jackie Fargo, they can't find him. [01:42:13] Speaker C: Yeah. So this is a tip, you know, I wish, you know, when something like this would happen. For me, having watched it all these years, but not yet understanding how it's all put together, something like this would happen. And I would go, wow, these guys get run off the road a lot, you know. You know, why does this keep happening to these people? [01:42:34] Speaker A: You know, we came. Supposed to be here, but we can't find him. And we've called the police and they're out looking for them. [01:42:42] Speaker C: Exactly. So this is a typical, I would say a typical angle, a typical big angle for the promotion. And it happened on 11-22-75, Chattanooga TV. So I'm sure that Harry Thornton or whoever was announcing that TV show that day said, hey, we got a treat today. Jackie Fargo's gonna be here. He's gonna either gonna come out and be, you know, be in the ring or gonna Talk to us about something and then you build it a little bit, right? Nobody's seen Fargo. Where is he? Where is he? You know, and you might even have the heels. Be a little bit smug about it. Well, yeah, Fargo, he's not going to show up. You know, he's a chicken and all this. Well, finally, at some point in the show, here into the studio staggers Jackie Fargo, battered, bloody, you know, clothes ripped apart. And he gets on the mic and like you said, P, let me tell you what happened, you know, and he. He talks about being run off the road between Nashville and Chattanooga on his way, you know, on his way to the TV show that day. And they ran him off the road. Not only did they run him off the road, they got out of their car and they beat him up, you know, three on one, the Bounty hunters and Jim Kentucky, and left him laying, you know, here. And that's why he's late. He couldn't get here on time. He finally got out and found his way to the TV studio. And, and of course, the flip on this is the show that they really. What they were really selling was November 23 or 20. Yeah, the 23rd, which was the next night, which was the house show in Chattanooga, where Jackie says, I've got just enough time to call a partner that I know I can count on. I'm calling the nut house in. [01:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:20] Speaker C: And so. So the next night, the show was probably somebody like Jackie Fargo and Jerry Barber against the bounty, you know. [01:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:29] Speaker C: And so, or, or, or. Or Jackie wrestling somebody else. And so Nick Lewis comes out, we're going to rework the card, and they shuffle some matches around, and you end up with the bounty hunters, managed by Jim Kent, taking on Jackie and Rough House Fargo. [01:44:43] Speaker A: Now. [01:44:45] Speaker C: The newspaper claim was the attendance was over 6,000, which is a full house in Chattanooga. That auditorium at that point probably held just over 6,000. Whether or not that claim was true, who knows? You know, that's. That's promoter count maybe going in there, but I could see where it would pop the crowd at this point. And the attendance probably did go up. [01:45:09] Speaker A: I, I think Jimmy Kent, having seen him when I grew up in the territory like you did, is one of the least remembered, best managers that that was out there. I mean, the guy could get in the ring, he could take bumps, he could talk. He, He. He was a very, very good manager. You think so? [01:45:32] Speaker C: I do. I think he was too. He. You know, we talked a little bit about the interns earlier, and Ken Raimi was a great manager. And the fact that he was sinister, I mean, he just gave this aura off that he was very sinister, very thin. But, you know, you don't. You don't make a copy of every manager. You know, there are different qualities about it. [01:45:54] Speaker A: And Ken Ramey had been a referee. [01:45:57] Speaker C: Yes. [01:45:58] Speaker A: Interned. [01:46:00] Speaker C: And Jim Kent was a little on the small side. [01:46:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:04] Speaker C: And for a manager, to me, I think that makes a lot more sense, that here's the smaller guy who's going to poke you in the ribs when you're in the corner or rake your eyes when the referee's not looking. And get away with it just because he's a smaller guy. And he'd get away with it because he's got these two guys by his side. [01:46:22] Speaker A: Right. [01:46:22] Speaker C: You know, and that's one of those things. And one of the things I remember about Jim Kent was he would all often run into the ring during a match and do something, then run out because he was so quick. He could do that and get in and out so quick. [01:46:33] Speaker A: His timing was very good. And the Novaks were probably six, four, six, five maybe. And Jimmy Kent was maybe five, five or five, six. [01:46:43] Speaker C: Yes. [01:46:44] Speaker A: I mean, they were a good foot taller than. Than him. [01:46:47] Speaker C: And a good gimmick to the bounty hunters. Good gimmick, kind of desperados. And. And Kent was just, you know, following along with them. [01:46:54] Speaker A: I wish that had worked out better for my good friend Jim Lancaster, who was with them for a while, but it didn't. He. I talked to him about it. He said, I don't know, he said, nick just decided he was going to make me a manager. [01:47:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:47:09] Speaker A: And I think Jim was more comfortable maybe being in the ring. But Jimmy Kent and the bounty hunters is really what you think about. [01:47:19] Speaker C: Yeah. And what's interesting about Jim Lancaster being there is at the same time, Jim Kent was around during some of that time. [01:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:47:27] Speaker C: Which, you know, for me, I was like, you know, just as a fan, not knowing what was going on, going well, why is Jim Kent not their manager anymore? You know, maybe I missed. Maybe I missed that on the show one week. I don't know. [01:47:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And they were, you know, he used them in a lot of the sea towns like Bowling Green and some. Some of those, you know, so they didn't really have a. A lot of chance. [01:47:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:47:51] Speaker A: But speaking of managers, one of the most infamous Tennessee managers of all time is back here. Saul Weingroth, gentleman. Saul. [01:48:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:48:01] Speaker A: Gosh. We should do a show with one of his sons sometime. [01:48:05] Speaker C: Yes. [01:48:06] Speaker A: One of them. On Talk about Saul but speaking of his sons, George Weingroth is going to make his debut. And another guy that I know people are pretty familiar with, Pistol Pez Wley. [01:48:19] Speaker C: Yes. [01:48:20] Speaker A: Who. And both of these guys had been college wrestlers in Chattanooga, right? [01:48:24] Speaker C: That's right. And I think the return of Saul was probably because of George Wine Groff coming into the business and, and Nick and Roy giving George a break here because, you know, there had been a. Saul had left the promotion in the early 70s, supposedly over, according to Jerry Jarrett, the way Jerry booked him and booked his team and he didn't like it, so he left. And as you full well know, they worked a lot of Kentucky at the time in the 70s, and, and Saul bounced around a little bit too, around here, but he, he comes back in 75 and Mitsu Arakawa was the guy that he managed. Well, Mitsu never got a chance, you know, he, he wasn't, he wasn't going to get much of a push. So that's what makes me think that maybe Saul coming back was come as a favor or to, to be there when George came in. And George didn't work a great deal at this point here, but he did work some. And of course, George is. When you look at the days of the icw, he's probably considered a legend in those days because he worked so much there. [01:49:38] Speaker A: And he was a tag team champion with Lanny Poffo. [01:49:41] Speaker C: Yeah, good tag team. [01:49:43] Speaker A: And Pez. Pez was there too. [01:49:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:46] Speaker A: And Pez turned heel and became partners with Rip Rogers. They became a modern version of the Hollywood Blonde, which is kind of funny. [01:49:55] Speaker C: On the surface, as you said, Pez was a local boy. He was from Chattanooga, so he got some good press here. But he did work, you know, other cities in the territory. Pez was a. An amateur wrestling star at Notre Dame High School in Chattanooga and then went on to the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, where George Weingaroff also went. And I believe George was a amateur wrestling star at the Tennessee School for the Blind in Nashville. [01:50:23] Speaker A: And I'd always heard. I don't remember the specifics on it. I always heard Pez Whatley had married a lady from Paducah, Kentucky and was. Was kind of making his home there. Yeah, I don't know exactly what year that was, but by the time that he was wrestling in icw, that was part of the appeal in Paducah for Pez was that he was married to a local lady. Yeah, the midget girls are in, in November as well. And you know, this is some of the Carnival aspects of pro wrestling, you know, having something for everybody. And the, the midgets would be very much a comedic act a lot of times. And especially if you're going to use the, the midget girls or women. [01:51:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they came through and they, they, you know, they would usually be a battle royal, you know, or some type of a. You stick them all in the ring at one time and watch them or maybe do a tag match with them. [01:51:26] Speaker A: We got some interesting athletic commission business that we want to talk about. And the first one has to do with what we briefly mentioned earlier about the Jerry Lawler versus the dj. [01:51:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So I have studied the Tennessee Athletic Commission meeting minutes from 1955 and up until 1980. And you're talking about some dry reading, boys. I tell you, it really, it really is. But one of the things, and I'm, I could talk about what my beliefs about this particular commission and not, not the current one, but the commission that was in place in 55 to 1980 and, and how useful they weren't. But one of the things that they were concerned over was a show that took place on September 7th. Now, it wasn't a wrestling show, okay. It was an event that took place at Lakeland Amusement park in Memphis on September 7th, so early September. And the deal is Jerry Lawler is going to appear at Lakeland and, and he's going to work a match against WMPS DJ Ron Jordan. And so Ron Jordan, I guess for that time would have been a shock jock type guy. He was very egotistical on air, very blunt, very bold on air. And so you can imagine sticking him and Lawler together and, and those two bannering one, you know, with one another and at some point going, well, you know, you don't know anything. Well, that's just me, the thing, the ring, you know, so this was a way to drum up business for Lakeland Amusement park is what it was. [01:53:16] Speaker A: Right. [01:53:16] Speaker C: So the Tennessee Athletic Commission comes in and goes, does Ron Jordan have a license? Who's promoting this? How much tax money are we going to make out of this? You know, as if it were, as if it were an event being held at the Mid South Coliseum. And this just to me shows how out of touch the commission was. Although the gentleman who reported it was Guy called Coffee, who was a Tennessee athletic commissioner at the time. And Guy Coffee in a few years began to work for Jerry Jarrett. [01:53:42] Speaker A: Yeah, he ran the Mid South Coliseum, didn't he? [01:53:46] Speaker C: Yes, he did. For years. He ran, he ran Ellis Auditorium. [01:53:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right, yeah. [01:53:51] Speaker C: He ran Ellis Auditorium, and of course, they lost the business, you know, through a renovation, promotion, had to move to Mid South Coliseum and never left the Coliseum until many years later. But Guy Coffee was an athletic commissioner at that time. And, and he's the one that said, hey, what do we do with the show? Right. And, you know, you're going nothing. [01:54:16] Speaker A: Lawler here, you know, in this ad for this city council guy, and we also got him here in this promotional thing when he's not been in the territory for six months. But what kind of money was Lawler making on just doing these things like this? [01:54:35] Speaker C: You know, I don't know. You know, was he doing it for publicity to get his name back out or was, you know, I can't imagine if Lakeland Amusement park was going to, you know, set up something like this that Jerry Lawler and Ron Jordan weren't paid. Something. [01:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I can't imagine the Gulas Welch office not knowing about it or being involved somehow. But their names are never mentioned, so. [01:55:02] Speaker C: Right. [01:55:03] Speaker A: Which may. Which may be connected to your beliefs about the athletic commission. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. [01:55:09] Speaker C: Or. Or, you know, I guess Lawler could have done it on his own maybe. But, you know, you know, you're risking. You're already walking on thin water or thin ice by just being away for several months. Are you going to risk that again? You know. [01:55:28] Speaker A: Now, another interesting piece of business in this same meeting, and I find this just amazingly fascinating. [01:55:36] Speaker C: This is great. [01:55:37] Speaker A: Is that John Ringley? For those of you who don't know, John Ringley was married to Francis Crockett. She was one of Jim Crockett Senior's children. She was his only daughter. And John Ringley actually ran Jim Crockett Promotions office after Jim Crockett Sr. Passed away. And then there were some relationship improprieties that happened reportedly, and he lost his job running the business and he and Francis got a divorce. And then John Ringley, I believe, goes to work in Oklahoma for a little while. But here in this November 14, 1975 Commission meeting, he's got a booking license application up for review. So I'll let you take it from there. [01:56:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:56:28] Speaker A: So. And Ringley was very involved in music booking as well. [01:56:32] Speaker C: Yes, yes. You know, and when you think about, you know, when you look into this and you look into his association with Jim Crockett Senior, as you said, they weren't just promoting wrestling. The Harlem Globetrotters would come to the Carolinas and it would be Ringley or Crockett who booked them through. Through the, through the Carolinas or music acts. John Ringley did a lot of that too. So John Ringley wasn't necessarily, you know, a wrestling promoter whiz, he was a promoting whiz. [01:57:12] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:57:12] Speaker C: All kinds of. [01:57:14] Speaker A: All kind of entertainment. [01:57:15] Speaker C: Yes. And so here you have him applying for a license to promote in Tennessee. Well, you know, are Nick and Roy going to hire him? Well, probably not, because as, as you say, there's, there's things under, you know, going on under, under the surface here. And we talk about the split in 77 with Jerry Jarrett and Nick Gois, but there's some other things going on too. And one of those other things is Camelot Concerts. Camelot Concerts was owned by Danny Davis. And when we say Danny Davis and we're talking about professional wrestling, we're not talking nightmare Danny Davis and we're not talking the referee Danny Davis, we're talking about the musician. Danny Davis played the trunk, played the. [01:58:02] Speaker A: Trump, played the trumpet. [01:58:04] Speaker C: Yes. A huge touring act of the 1970s, Danny Davis. And so he had a, a company that did some booking, my understanding, and it was called Camelot Concerts. And so Camelot Concerts at this same meeting are looking for promoters licenses. Okay. And so you. A booking license for John Ringley promoter's licenses for Camelot Concerts run by Danny Davis, who's in the association with Buddy Lee. Yes, Buddy Lee Attractions, one of the huge talent booking talent companies in Nashville, maybe the biggest at that time. And for many years they were, I think they only went out of business a few years ago, even after Buddy had passed. But when you look at Buddy Lee, he was married to Lillian Ellison, who was the Fabulous Moolah. Buddy worked in the ring in the 50s in the Carolinas and I'm pretty sure did some promoting in the Carolinas. Carolinas. There's some towns over there, yeah. He was married to Rita Cortez and settling in Nashville and worked with Hank Williams Senior's widow Audrey, and promoting Hank Williams Junior's career early on. And out of that grew bloody Lee Attractions. And so Buddy Lee Attractions and Camelot Concerts with Danny Davis are going to get together in 1976 and debut the UWA, based in Nashville. The Universal Wrestling Association, I believe, maybe Alliance, I don't know. [01:59:38] Speaker A: And a bunch of those, a bunch of those television tapes just in the last year or so have surfaced and. [01:59:44] Speaker C: Been found some good stuff. And you'll see a lot of Gulas talent or what we associate as ghoulish talent on those shows, including some folks we've talked about today. Saul Wein Groff, Ken Ramey, the interns and some guys that we haven't talked about, like Lorenzo Parenti. [02:00:04] Speaker A: We'll cover what happens with that coming up next year here on our shows. But I just gotta say, if you haven't gone on YouTube and seen Saul Weingroff and Big Tussie, oh, you know, you need to go watch that there. [02:00:19] Speaker C: There'S the, I've got some information about Big Tussie too. And I know some folks that some of that information's been out there. It's a, interesting, interesting story behind the scenes or behind in her about her life. But yes, the, the next big thing was going to be Big Tussie Jackson and, and Saul Weingroth was right there with her. [02:00:42] Speaker A: So, so that's the seeds of that UWA are being planted here in the Tennessee Athletic Commission meeting in November. So as boring and dry reading as it is, Tim, I really appreciate you doing the reading because it comes up with these really interesting little nuggets like this. Yeah. [02:01:02] Speaker C: And you know, you, you think about this. They didn't act on these, the commission did not act on granting any of these licenses in this meeting. So they have a meeting in December where there are no written minutes. It was an audio, there was an audio version of the meeting and who knows if that even exists. So we don't know what happens. But I guess I'll give a spoiler away here. John Ringling's not in the picture in January. [02:01:33] Speaker A: Right. [02:01:34] Speaker C: But you have to wonder, someone with his ability and talent, what would have happened if he had been the force behind the UWA? How different would 1976 had been in the state of Tennessee? [02:01:49] Speaker A: And I'll just save this for our next show in 76. But I know the reason why he's not involved. [02:01:59] Speaker C: Okay. [02:02:00] Speaker A: So we'll, we'll save that and keep that. So it will use that as a don't miss next week's program. [02:02:07] Speaker C: There you go. [02:02:08] Speaker A: So going into December of 75, the Lawler and Dundee deal gets a little bit more serious, I guess because Dundee is more on the baby face side. Lawler has turned heel. [02:02:19] Speaker C: Yes. [02:02:20] Speaker A: And so we're getting a little bit more previews of coming attractions. That feud's gonna last for the next 10, 12 years. [02:02:28] Speaker C: Yes. [02:02:28] Speaker A: Forever throughout Tennessee. Yeah, go ahead. You want to say something about that? [02:02:33] Speaker C: Well, um, you know, Law, Jerry Lawler is one of my favorites. I, I, he's so talented in so many ways that engage you as a fan. I love Jerry Lawler as a baby face. But, man, 1970s bad guy Jerry Lawler was the absolute best. [02:02:55] Speaker A: I. I'll always think of him that way because that's how I first saw him. [02:03:00] Speaker C: Him. Yes, yes. He'd get on there and, you know, look out in that crowd and call him a bunch of rednecks, and you're going, oh, you're no different than us. What are you? Who do you think you are, buddy? Yeah, you know, just that ability just to get under your skin so easy and so quickly. [02:03:15] Speaker A: And again, you know, his interactions with Lance Russell are iconic, but his interactions that no one has ever seen with Harry Thornton and with some of the other announcers throughout the territory were just as iconic as his ones with Lance. And, yeah, that's how talented Lawler was. [02:03:36] Speaker C: I'm just tremendous. The kids today would say, riz, right? Charisma. [02:03:40] Speaker A: Yep. [02:03:41] Speaker C: He oozed it. Oozed it. [02:03:43] Speaker A: Now you got a version of the TV Guide. Now, back in these days, we would get TV Guides that were customized for our area with our channels and with our shows. And it was a local schedule printed in a very nice little 8x10 magazine. But you guys got one with Harry Thornton on the COVID Yeah, this came. [02:04:03] Speaker C: Through the Chattan News Free Press newspaper. So this was the. The Sunday version. And. And it was on there. And so Harry Thornton in 1975 is dressed up as Santa Claus. And, you know, for. For what you want to say about Harry, and you and I have said this before, was he on the level of a Gordon Sully or a Lance Russell or a Les Thatcher or Jim Ross or. Or whoever you rank up there as being so good? No, he wasn't. But he was what was needed at the time in Chattanooga. He was a broadcasting legend, had been around since the 40s with maybe a. A little bit of gap when he was in the military. But he came back and he was on radio for years. He was on television for years. He and became the. The host of the TV wrestling show in the mid-60s or in the 60s, and stayed with it until the end. He was also the host of a daily talk show Monday through Friday in the morning called the Morning show on the CBS affiliate that drew double the ratings of whatever was on the NBC and ABC affiliate. It was localized, so that was part of the appeal. But I have to think part of the appeal was Harry. Just so many people had grown up with Harry that they tuned in to Harry. And Harry wasn't shy about being bombastic, controversial if he wanted to. You just. Sometimes you just tuned in to see what was going to happen. [02:05:38] Speaker A: And I think that just shows the promotional smarts of Nick and Roy, that when television came around in all of these major markets, they were in. Their television host was very tied into the community. And in a lot of cases, especially in Harry's had a piece of the town. I mean, they gave him a percentage of ownership in just that particular town to help draw fans and sell tickets, which to me is just business genius. [02:06:06] Speaker C: Yes. And so in 1975, who are you going to ask to be Santa Claus? Well, you know, you put it on Harry Thornton. [02:06:13] Speaker A: Uncle Harry. [02:06:16] Speaker C: Oh, real gruff Harry. You know, I mean, he was. He was gruff sounding and maybe a little bit gruff in real life, but he was this, you know, just speaks to his popularity in the city of Chattanooga at that time that they would do something like this. [02:06:31] Speaker A: And speaking about wrestling being a family business, his son debuts also. I didn't, I didn't really know too much about Butch, but I just saw a picture of him doing some ring announcing or something the other day. [02:06:45] Speaker C: Butch didn't. He worked off and on for a few years. He didn't get the push that, that George got. You know, he worked a little bit over, over time, but prior to his getting in the ring, he had done some ring announcing. Some of those clips and videos that you see from the mid-70s from the arenas. There's a few of those that happen from Chattanooga where Butch is the announcer. He's actually calling the action. And he worked, I think I said he worked as a referee some and he did work in the Gulf coast area and I think also in the Central States area for a little bit. You may see him there is Terry Thornton. [02:07:25] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [02:07:26] Speaker C: But he is Harry Thornton Jr. And he was called Butch. [02:07:29] Speaker B: Wow. [02:07:30] Speaker A: Roy Welch is sort of infamous for being one of the promoters back in the 30s and 40s that introduced the Bears. Wrestling bears. And we've got a wrestling bear at this time. The original bear was Ginger and then we got a couple of generations of Ginger. But now we've got Gentleman Ben and. And wasn't there a television show named Gentle Ben or something? [02:07:58] Speaker C: Yes. [02:08:00] Speaker A: I don't know if that was a tie in or not, but yeah, it. [02:08:03] Speaker C: Probably was some callback to it at least. But Nick Adams was the, the trainer at the time and he would bring the, the bear to town. And I was fascinated that Memphis even brought the bear in at this time. You know, I would think, you know what, what. I just couldn't imagine the Memphis promote or the city of Memphis being drawn to a wrestling Bear. [02:08:28] Speaker A: But it's not really. Not really the culture of Memphis either, you know? Yeah, that's more of a. To me, that's more of a smaller town thing. [02:08:37] Speaker C: Yeah. You would bring it maybe to Bowling. [02:08:39] Speaker A: Green or Paducah or Affair, you know, or something like that. [02:08:44] Speaker C: Yeah. But they. They brought him in again, and that's one of those things we talked earlier about. Kind of a special attraction type deal. You know, you brought Andre in for the week. You brought the midget girls in for a week. Week. And. And I guess maybe Gentleman Ben came in for a little bit of time near the end of the year. [02:09:00] Speaker A: A couple more things to mention. One is, and this guy's worked almost every territory in the United States in 1975. I can't believe the amount of times I've said the name Professor Toro Tanaka, but he even works here in the Tennessee territory a few shots. [02:09:17] Speaker C: Yeah. One of my favorites. And I don't know why. I. I just enjoyed him. He was so compact. [02:09:25] Speaker A: I just admire him for his hustle, man. I mean, I'm telling you, he worked every territory in 75. [02:09:32] Speaker B: Even. [02:09:33] Speaker A: Even. Even just if it was one or two shots. I mean, he. He got around when he worked mostly in Florida and Georgia and a little bit in the WWW F. But when he wasn't working, he was working. You know, he got. He. He went to a territory and worked a few weeks. [02:09:51] Speaker C: He did. And. And I sometimes think some of these guys kind of slip under our radar about their accomplishments. You look back in the late 60s when he worked in the Northeast in the WWWF, he and Bruno San Martino drew some enormous houses up there. And, you know, and he parlayed that into a solid, solid career everywhere he went. And like you said, he went everywhere. He did text in the headline. Most everywhere he went, he was champions. [02:10:27] Speaker A: In Georgia with Mr. Fuji. [02:10:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:10:31] Speaker A: And back when, you know, you were programmed for Japanese to be automatic heels, I mean, he. He had an evil way about him where you and the nickname professor, you're like, oh, what's this guy up to? [02:10:44] Speaker C: A little tricky. Yeah. One of my favorite Toro Tanaka storylines happened in Knoxville a few years past this, probably 78 or so, and Ron Wright is feuding with Kevin Sullivan. And so Ron Wright is sending these guys in after Kevin Sullivan to put him out. Got a bounty on his head type deal. And Kevin counters by bringing Toro Tanaka in as his tag partner. And so suddenly, Toro Tanaka, who you've known as a heel forever, is smiling and standing next to Kevin Sullivan and, you know, saying, you know, I'm here to be your partner and this, that, and the other. And so this goes on for several weeks until the night when Toro Tanaka turns on Kevin Sullivan and gets handed the money by Ron Wright for. For playing him, you know, and you're going, oh, how come I not see that? You know, this is a great, great angle. [02:11:42] Speaker A: A couple other things. The family members for Roy Welch are in here for a couple of shots. Lester Welch, who was a very popular. One of the Welch brothers, actually, and one of the more popular. He's the youngest brother, comes in and. And was probably the most authentic cowboy of the Welch. Yeah. [02:12:07] Speaker C: Yes. [02:12:08] Speaker A: He loved horses and loved doing that kind of stuff. What was Lester doing in here? [02:12:13] Speaker C: I think he mostly worked as a special referee. And I. I wonder, too, maybe he did some of the booking for a short time. I mean, because that's one of the things he's known as in. The. Known for. In the business, as for his booking. And also Jackie and Roy Lee, his sons come in. [02:12:31] Speaker A: I know they were in the strip mining business by this time. Yeah. After he sold his interest in Georgia. [02:12:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:12:41] Speaker A: And Florida and all, and got out, he got into strip mining up in East Tennessee. [02:12:46] Speaker C: Yeah. And I believe. I believe this kind of led to him being a little more involved with Ron Fuller in Knoxville, because Roy, especially Roy Lee, ends up working some in Knoxville within the next few years. [02:13:03] Speaker A: And just a little trivia question for you. Roy Lee is named for his grandparents, Right. Roy. And then Bonnie Lee was wife. [02:13:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:13:15] Speaker A: So he got the first name of Roy in the middle name, or it might have been her last name. I'm not sure. But it was. Bonnie Lee was Roy's wife's name. So he's. His name got to be Roy Lee Welch. [02:13:27] Speaker C: I did not know that. [02:13:29] Speaker A: Dave Brown gets attacked. [02:13:32] Speaker C: Now, this happened earlier in the year. We kind of probably glossed over it. [02:13:36] Speaker A: Well, I never knew it happened, so I'm glad you brought it up. [02:13:40] Speaker C: So Dave Brown, of course, was one of the wrestling announcers in Memphis at this point on WHBQ channel 13 in Memphis. And he was also the weatherman on. On TV for. For Channel 13. And in March of that year, this guy walks in off the street, says, can I see Dave Brown? And go. They take him back to. To. To Dave. And this guy takes a swing at Dave and I think may have glanced him or something, but Dave went down to the ground, you know, to. To. To get out of the way. And. [02:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:14:13] Speaker C: And they get this guy contained in some way, and they. They call the police and get him out of there and. Or he leaves, I, I can't recall which, but he goes away. And then about a month later, the guy shows up again, hey, can I see Dave Brown? And they're like, yeah, you can see Dave. He's in this room right over here. And so they lead him to a room and lock him in it and then call the authorities. And so Dave, you know, there's all sorts of stories when something like this happens. What's going on here? You know, did the, did the guy get mad because it rained right. On the day that he didn't need it? Or, you know, Dave was too nice to the so and so wrestler on tv, you know, or, or something else nefarious going on. Right. Well, something like that gets blown out of the, out of proportion because people said, well, yeah, I remember watching that on tv. And you know, and none of that happened. Yeah, yeah. You know, and Dave, prior to his, his retirement, I think, talked about this. And there could be a clip out there about this where Dave actually talks about it. And come to find out it didn't happen on air. It happened in the newsroom. And this gentleman had some issues, just had some, some mental issues and for whatever reason wanted to take it out on poor Dave Brown. And so when it happened the first time, they were kind of prepared for it the second time and contained him and ended up him getting, hopefully this man getting some help and it never happened again. But. [02:15:47] Speaker A: And you and I both know from working at broadcast facilities that this kind of stuff happens very frequently where somebody who's on the air and especially if they've are a big personality, they get letters, they get calls, they get cakes and pies. And I myself got a threatening note left under the windshield wiper of my car one time of police got called and the lady got arrested for leaving me a note. And it's kind of a crazy business. Very much like wrestling business. [02:16:25] Speaker C: Yes, yes. There's some parallels there for sure. [02:16:27] Speaker A: You got Dave in both, so. [02:16:29] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [02:16:30] Speaker A: And then there's another item you mentioned here about a wrestler who's not the famous wrestler we're more familiar with. Arthur Williams, who wrestled under the name Rufus Jones is shot and killed. [02:16:45] Speaker C: Yeah. He was particularly known in West Tennessee, probably in Arkansas, in Mississippi. And he worked some for Nick and Roy. Never a major star, I can imagine. He probably. If there were some independent shows there, he probably worked those too. When you go back and see some of the results through the years, you may see a Rufus Jones prior, you know, Obviously, to this and that. That doesn't necessarily mean it's Carrie Lloyd who was Rufus R. Jones. Now, Rufus R. Jones was in the territory, I think, in 74, and that was Carrie Lloyd. That was Rufus R. Freight Train Jones. But there was also a Rufus Jones whose name, as you said, was Arthur Williams. And he and a companion were shot and killed in April of that year. The gentleman who did that was. Was captured and convicted of that crime later on. Um, but don't know that it was necessarily anything pro wrestling related other than the fact that he did work in the business. [02:17:50] Speaker A: So then two other athletic commissions before business before we wrap up the show. One is this dispute, and I'm interested to hear this about Bill. Bill Warren, who was a promoter for Goules and Welch, because Bill Warren actually promoted Perduca. Right. And. But the dispute in the athletic commission involves a town in Tennessee, which is Jackson. So what. What happened between Bill Warren and the Gulas Welch office? [02:18:21] Speaker C: That's a good question. I don't know how. How clear it is about what go. What really went on, other than that there was some issue, it seems to me maybe that either Warren wanted to run on his own or Gulas Welch wanted someone else to run Jackson. It's to me, one or the other. Warren had been there in Jackson several years at this point and had kind of revived the business in Jackson to some degree. Even had a live TV show at this time in Jackson. [02:19:00] Speaker A: It's about to get a new building, too. [02:19:03] Speaker C: Yeah, about to go in that Coliseum. And so October 2nd appears they have this show with a. With a singing group or a musical group. Ferris Lanier Jr. And the Jacksonians. Okay. And so you're having a concert before a wrestling show. Well, that happened to be the last wrestling show in Jackson until February of 76 because of this dispute. And so there's not a whole lot out there. There's a newspaper article that just says there's. There's something going on about Warren wanting maybe to get a new sponsor, which would seem to indicate maybe he wants to run on his own. And, you know, there were some guys out there in West Tennessee where he could have formed a group or promoted on his own. You had guys like Lavon Stone and. And some of those guys that had worked for Phil golden nearby earlier in the 70s who could have. Who could have run some shows there. So I don't know if that was the case or if it just got to be the case where Goodison Welch just said, we want somebody else in there. And then some that somebody else in 76, when they come back is Jerry Jarrett. Jerry is the one that comes in and ends up promoting the first shows in Jackson in 76. [02:20:21] Speaker A: And that's about the same time frame that they stopped running Paducah. They used to run the St. Mary's High School gymnasium in Paducah. And Bill Warren, who's prominently in the newspaper ads. [02:20:34] Speaker C: Oh, okay. [02:20:35] Speaker A: Yeah, they. They've got his pictures in there. The promoter, Bill Warren presents, you know, and, And. And. But it's a ghoul as well, because Jerry's on many of those shows. It's. They used to run ads with Jerry and his horse. Stallion. Stallion. And so that. That solves a little bit of a mystery to me because I always wondered, do you have any idea where Bill Warren was from? [02:21:00] Speaker C: I think he was from the Memphis area. I want to say he was a businessman in Memphis. [02:21:04] Speaker A: Okay. [02:21:05] Speaker C: There was. You know, when you. When you delve into this and you look through stuff online, Bill Warren, William Warren, there's a lot of those guys. Yeah, yeah, there could be a lot. And sifting through and sorting through and figuring out which one. One's, which is. Can be very difficult. [02:21:22] Speaker A: I found a Bill Warren because I was going to track down him or his family because I was going to try to talk with them, you know, about these shows that they ran in Paducah. And I found a Bill Warren in Metropolis, Illinois, who was in real estate. And I thought maybe that was him, but probably not now that his. His scope is bigger than I thought, because I thought he was just the Paducah promoter, but. [02:21:44] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I thought he was. I. I thought he ran Jackson, but I thought he might have run some of the other cities in. In West Tennessee. So I. It's news to me up in Paducah. [02:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll send you some of those ads. Yeah, but he. He took over for Colonel Langston, I guess, in Jackson. Yeah. [02:22:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:22:02] Speaker A: The other thing I wanted to end the show on is just how much money these guys were making. [02:22:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:22:08] Speaker A: So let's talk about 1975. How much money was the Tennessee Athletic Commission reporting that the Goulas Welch promotion was. And not just them, but all of wrestling. Yes, but they were the major. You know, a large percentage of this is going to be them. [02:22:26] Speaker C: So the Tennessee Athletic Commission, the records do. In. Some of those records do have. I guess you could call them ledger sheets, which shows how much money they took in each month, and it's broken down by category. And so the Athletic commission covered boxing, wrestling, and at Times auto racing, you know, and when you look at those three, which one do you think is going to bring in the most money? It's going to be progressing. Yeah, boxing, you know, a pro boxing card in. In Tennessee. It didn't happen very often. John Tate in. In Knoxville in 1980, because John, you know, ended up living in Knoxville. They had a card there, but the commission was on its way out at that point, and auto racing was just something that still couldn't figure out how they calculated that money in there. But most of your money that the Tennessee Athletic Commission took in was through taxes. Now, they also took in money through licenses. So your promoter, your booker, what they called booker, more like a booking agent, not a creative booking. [02:23:38] Speaker A: Right. [02:23:39] Speaker C: In each wrestler, each referee. [02:23:41] Speaker A: Talent management, essentially. [02:23:43] Speaker C: Yeah, talent management. That's a good way to put it. You know, everybody had to have a license that was involved in this. And now licenses. Licenses weren't much. You know, 15 maybe at the most, maybe 25. I can't recall. Now you're booking and promoting licenses were a little bit more. So when you look at the figures that are brought in, and we're talking fiscal year, which was July 1, 1974, until June 30, 1975, that money that was brought in through. Through. Into the commission through boxing, wrestling, auto racing licenses, taxes was 73, $555. Okay, now let's remove the live show tax from that. It's a live show tax is 63, 220. So $10,000 of this was licenses and some of these other things that they. How they brought in money. So your live show tax was 63, 220, and that is 4% of. Of a house show. Okay. Of the house show business. So if you ran a show and made $10,000, you had to pay 4% of that money to the athletic commission. You were talking, you and I were talking earlier about somebody showing up, wanting to want their tax money. [02:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:25:16] Speaker C: At a show. And, and that's, you know, that's. That. That's what this was. Now, you know, a lot of these shows, if you didn't draw much, you didn't have to pay much, but you. You weren't making much anyway. But if you drew a good crowd, that was a drop in a bucket, what you took home. Of course, comparatively speaking. So if you take this 4%, you look at $63,220 and you kind of extrapolate that on out, it comes out to $1.58 million. On wrestling shows, mostly wrestling shows, there might have been a boxing show or two in there? Probably not. [02:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:25:51] Speaker C: So most of that money is based on pro wrestling, because pro wrestling ran almost every night, multiple shows every night in the state and weekly. So this added up pretty quick. Now, one of the great things I love about research is called the inflation calculator. And so if I stick that $1.58 million into an inflation calculator and say, this was the money. What money? This was what the money was worth on June 30th or. Or. Yeah, June 30th, 1975. What is it worth now? And it comes out to being $9.574 million. [02:26:37] Speaker A: Almost $10 million. [02:26:38] Speaker C: Almost $10 million in today's money. [02:26:40] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [02:26:41] Speaker C: And so you can imagine if you know what you can do with 10 million today and what you could do with 1 million then. [02:26:47] Speaker A: And just a reminder, this is only in Tennessee. [02:26:50] Speaker C: Yes, that's. That's a key point because you had Kentucky, which did have a commission as well as you said, as you and I talked about. [02:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:26:57] Speaker C: You probably ran. You ran Evansville. So you had Indiana, some shows in Indiana. You had Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama. 75. They ran a show or two in North Carolina. At the very tip of North Carolina. [02:27:09] Speaker A: Kentucky and Alabama would have been the bigger ones because they ran bigger towns in both of those states. But can you imagine what the total gross revenue of the booking office in Nashville was if Tennessee was a million and a half? [02:27:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [02:27:27] Speaker A: I mean, it probably. I mean, I would venture to guess. I Bet it's with 3, 4 million dollars. [02:27:34] Speaker C: Absolutely. And then you think about that. Knoxville at this point is kind of removed from that number. But, you know, Ron was still. Ron Fuller was still building his territory then. So it was. [02:27:45] Speaker A: They were getting. They were sending guys over there. Yeah, they were getting a 10 or 12% booking fee, probably. [02:27:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's more money coming in. And at some point, you know, Ron would build that business. He. He hadn't built it to the level that it would become, and it would be even more money coming in. Now, if you. If you prefer to look at things. Calendar year, okay, you look at January to December, the. The total money, if you. If you do the 4% on what was brought in for January through December, 75, that's $1.65 million. And if you, you know, run the figures to say, what's that worth today? That's 9.656 million. [02:28:29] Speaker A: Wow. [02:28:30] Speaker C: So unreal. The amount of money that they brought. Brought in. [02:28:34] Speaker A: And Jerry Jarrett is working his way into Half of this business. [02:28:38] Speaker C: That's right. [02:28:39] Speaker A: I mean, he is slowly but surely buying out Roy. I think he. I think he had 10% when he went to Georgia. When he came back from Georgia, he got another 10 or 15%. I think he got to 25%. [02:28:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:28:54] Speaker A: And then he was working on buying out the rest of Roy, because at this point, Roy's health is really starting. Starting to fail. [02:29:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:29:01] Speaker A: And those are things we're going to talk about coming up next year, because next year is going to be the year that advances toward the split. But, I mean, no wonder Jerry, you know, was able to buy those cars and the houses and things and the farms. He's always getting a little bit bigger farm. During this time, they were making lots of money. [02:29:24] Speaker C: They were. And you know, you think about out of that, out of that huge bucket of money, you are paying for the talent, you are paying for your venues and ticket takers and all these other things. But even when you look at that, at that time, you still had to have a lot of money in your pocket. At the end of the day, what. [02:29:47] Speaker A: They were not paying for was television. Right. They were sending their television show around and people were glad to get it. It was another hour programming. [02:29:56] Speaker C: You didn't have to worry about filling that hour. [02:29:58] Speaker A: And I think at this point, in 75, they were on 18 television stations. [02:30:03] Speaker C: Wow. [02:30:04] Speaker A: They were sending their tape to 18 different television stations that covered a multitude of markets. There were probably 25 regular towns that they ran that had a decent population around the territory, and probably eight of those or nine of those were in Tennessee. So you can imagine how much this actually is. If it's 1.6 million for 75 in Tennessee alone. Yeah. You. You had to get close to double that, at least. [02:30:35] Speaker C: And one other thing. These are on shows that were reported, correct? So, no. [02:30:42] Speaker A: No wrestling promoter in the history of times ever over reported their taxes. [02:30:47] Speaker C: Well, you know, and what's going to get reported is Memphis, Nashville. You know, though, you know, you're going to have an inspector show up at those shows because we know you're having it this week. [02:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:30:57] Speaker C: But you might have a show in, you know, Cowan, Tennessee. You know, a little bit off the beaten path between, you know, a little bit toward middle Tennessee. You might have a show there. And if the inspector don't show up, what are you going to do? You're going to pocket that money, I'm sure probably. Right. You come to some of those small towns, you. You fill those buildings up, and hopefully. [02:31:20] Speaker A: Nobody has a distant cousin at the athletic commission, that they went to the wrestling show last night. [02:31:27] Speaker C: That's right. [02:31:27] Speaker A: They check their records and find out, like, oh, we didn't get a report from that Hickman, Kentucky show, you know. [02:31:35] Speaker C: And I don't know how much of that went on, but it had to because the athletic commission never had enough inspectors. You couldn't cover all those things. And, you know, particularly in east Tennessee, for shows they never had enough inspectors, you could always get somebody to be in the big cities to work those inspector gigs because it can be a little bit of a political payoff for you. Hey, do me a favor, you know, you make $15 for going to the show. [02:32:01] Speaker A: Well, Tim, I've had an absolute ball going through 75 with you, sir, and it's just so many great memories for me, and I can't wait to go into 76 next year. And I really want you to know how much you mean to me and how much I love working with you. And I want to give you happy holidays for this season, and I can't wait to. Hopefully next year we'll do 76, and Tim and I may even be playing a little trip. We can tell you more about next year. So. [02:32:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. [02:32:35] Speaker A: All right, Tim Deals, everybody. Tim. Thank you, man. [02:32:38] Speaker C: Yes, sir. Tony. [02:32:39] Speaker A: Wow, what a show about Tennessee wrestling history today goes along perfectly what I've been talking about on stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. First of all, we visited with the author and historian Kevin McCann, who's just come out with the Rowdy Red Roberts record book. Say that three times fast. That's a nice Christmas limerick for you, Rowdy. Rowdy Red Roberts record book. Say that. I can't even say it one time, but a lot of great information. I'm so grateful and thankful to Kevin for writing this book about someone who has long been since forgotten by most wrestling historians, who was a really. A really key heel in the Tennessee territory for Roy Welch and helping building it. And he put his body and all the wrestling undertaker on the line every single week. And all these towns around here for Roy Welch and Lester and Herb and all the baby faces. Rowdy Red Roberts, what a great character. And then Tim Deals and I covered the last three months of Tennessee, 1975, and the beginnings of the Jerry Lawler Bill Dundee feud that would last for the next 30 years. All got started in the last part of 1975 when Lawlor came back in the territory. Dundee had turned baby face. Lawler had been baby face, came back, turned heel on Dundee, and we're off and running for a program that's going to last for decades and decades to come. Let me tell you about my and I'm so thankful to Tim, who's been such a great resource. Kevin and Tim both have provided such great information for the Briscoe and Bradshaw show and I'm definitely going to credit them when we get to the last episode. Okay, let me tell you about my social media channels and we'll get on out of here today. You can hook up with me at Facebook, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group. Send me a little invitation or a little application for membership there and it's easy to do and fill out and agree to our rules and I'll put you in. We were growing by leaps and bounds, 20, 25 members every single week. And we want the next member to be you. Come in, be friends with us at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. We got a ton of great esports experts. We have a lot of great posts and it's a, it's a good group for people who want to take pro wrestling history seriously. We don't put up with a lot of Gaga in there. On YouTube you can get all our videos, plus clips of our show, clips of other shows that I've been on and guested on, plus wrestling matches from the past and a whole lot more at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel YouTube channel and probably my biggest platform where people follow me. The wrestling stuff the most is on X, formerly Twitter. It's Tony Richards 4. It's Tony Richards 4. And of course with the symbol and you can follow me and I post every day on X. Most of the time I post birthdays and I post rip salutes and photos and clips of our show and a lot of other answer questions and a lot of other great stuff. And of course the substack channel, Tony Richards 4@substack pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, the daily Chronicle Pro Wrestling History newsletter. Every single day, 31 great announcers from the television era in the territories of pro wrestling. That series comes out at least one time a week. And then also I give you the special series the Evolution of Pro Wrestling for those who want to be premium subscribers and you want to contribute to the work that I do to put this podcast on, to all the history work I do that goes into shows like Briscoe and Bradshaw and WFIA and all of the shows that I participate in, all the books that I'm writing, all of that stuff. Thank you so much for those who become premium subscribers and you support me financially. I appreciate you more than you can know next week here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, we're going to the deep, deep, deep in the heart of Texas. Greg Klein is going to be here and we're going to talk about the Dallas office loop, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Corpus and the city of Houston, Texas for the last three months of 1975. And also in part two of next week's show, Dan Black, a very good friend of mine who grew up in Amarillo and is doing wonderful, great things through his organization that we will talk about on next week's show. Dan will be here and we will do Amarillo the last half of the year and we're leading up to Terry Funk's NWA World championship win and we will document what went on in the Amarillo territory to get to that on next week's show. So I hope you will join us. And remember, we got a big Christmas super show coming and a lot of other great things. Just keep watching, keep listening and thank you for all your support. This is Tony Richards reminding you, if you want better neighbors, be a better. Say that again. If you want better neighbors, be a better neighbor. So long everybody from the Bluegrass State. Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. [02:38:21] Speaker C: Don't you dare miss it.