Episode 28: Lib Ayoub, It's All About The Belt and Q&A 1 (Audio)

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things. [00:00:06] Speaker A: To talk about and to do today, covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today, interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. Hello again, everybody, and welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. I'm your host as always, Tony Richards, coming to you live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky. Thank you for joining us here. Once again, we are working and striving and endeavoring to be a wrestling history podcast. That is, we don't really talk about anything after 1990. Occasionally things bleed over into the 90s that we reference in context with historical events. And that's going to happen in today's Q and A section that's coming up a little bit later on in the show. But typically we stay within what's known as the Territorial Era. And if you've ever wondered exactly what place in time that is, I've created a model on the Territory era that I'm going to share today. Also in today's Q and A section, which I might as well go ahead and tell you about that. So we are going to do today, for the first time in our show's short history, this is episode number 28. And we've never done a Q and A episode. And today we're going to start out by just doing a section of the show on Q and A. I have five or six questions that listeners of our show have sent in and they're pretty good questions and they'll take me a little bit of time to expand upon. So I've got five or six questions to answer in today's show. And if this continues and people have questions and participate and send those in, we might get to the point where every couple of months we may do a whole Ask Tony Anything Q and A type show. So that's coming up, the Q and A section a little bit later on today on the show. I've got my friend Lib Ayub coming on from Australia. Yep, we're going to have somebody all the way from Australia tonight here at the Richards Ranch in Kentucky. And Lib has a brand new book called It's all about the Belt. And it's all about the championship belts and the championships in the American wrestling association, the AWA, that was created by Vern Gagne and Associates in 1960. They broke away from the National Wrestling alliance at that time and formed their own federation based in the old Minneapolis NWA territory. And it was one of the largest geographical territories in pro wrestling history and very successful right up until the national expansion years of the mid-80s. So it'll be interesting for you to listen in on my conversation with Lib on the show tonight and we're going to go through his book and talk about the five championship belts that were created for the world champion in the awa. And Lib, who is a belt connoisseur himself, that's why he wrote the book, is going to be joining me here on the show to talk about this brand new book. And I also had to thank him because my recent appearance on the Briscoe and Bradshaw show where I did a series on Jim Barnett and a lot of the information that I retrieved about Jim Barnett's World Championship wrestling promotion in Australia was from a book that Lib wrote some time ago, like back in the 90s. And he's going to update that book and I'm very much encouraging him to do so. And I'm going to have him back here on the show to guest with me to talk about wrestling in Australia in the mid-70s, coming up in 2026. So great things to look forward to from Lib. But for now let's go to my conversation with Lib Ayub here at the Richards Ranch from Australia and his book It's all about the Belt. Hey again everybody, welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. And tonight here at the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky in the United States, I'm joined by Libnan Ayoub all the way from Australia. And Libnan has a brand new book. I'll hold it up and show it to you. It's called all about the Belt. It's the history of the world championship title belts of the American Wrestling Association. And Lib has done a fantastic job on this book and I can't wait to talk about it with him. Lib, welcome to the show tonight, man. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on, Tony. [00:05:15] Speaker A: I'm so glad. Now tell me, what part of Australia do you live in? [00:05:19] Speaker B: Sydney. Sydney, Australia. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Oh, nice, nice. Before we get started, I also want to say you also did a book some time ago called 100 Years of Australian Professional Wrestling and that book has been in my library, as I told you, has been in my library for quite some time. Now you said you wrote it in the late 90s, right? [00:05:45] Speaker B: 1998 to be precise. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Yep. And so when I did the series on Jim Barnett for the Briscoe and Bradshaw show with the Boys, that book came in so handy as a resource for Barnett's time course. The book is about 100 years of wrestling in Australia. It's got so much more in it, but the period of 64 to 74 with Barnett and Doyle and all that was just great. It just took me down some great roads. And thank you so much for writing that book. [00:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah, no, thanks. Thanks. Like, yeah, I will be doing an update. Don't know how long, but I will be doing an update of that book. So, yeah, keep an eye out. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Sure. Now, I was telling you, I've been on the road quite a bit lately. It's strategic planning season this time of the year for my clients in my regular job. And so I was traveling this past week to St. Louis. And of course, when you're doing all day meetings with executives and you're talking about futuristic thinking and planning, by the end of the day, after you go out maybe and have a bite to eat together or something, when I get back to my hotel, I'm just exhausted. But I enjoyed just sitting down, decompressing and reading your book. It's all about the belt. And one of the things that's fascinating right off the bat in your book, you talk about your dad and your father was a professional wrestler. As a matter of fact, he was a world champion, right? [00:07:12] Speaker B: That's right, yeah. He won the world title In Lebanon in 1962, a version, one of the thousands of versions of world titles in the history of wrestling. Yeah, he was a great wrestler. And he died when I was 11 and I didn't really get to know him. So the last, you know, 40 years, I've been looking, looking and searching and, you know, finding all, all about him and what a great wrestler he was and what a great person he was as well. [00:07:37] Speaker A: That was the International Wrestling Federation, was that right? [00:07:40] Speaker B: That's right, that's right. [00:07:41] Speaker A: And he. In the picture, he's got the title belt on. In your book, he's. Did he wrestle barefoot? [00:07:48] Speaker B: Yes, he did. He changed the boots. He wrestled for Jim Barnett, football champion wrestling a couple of times in the 70s. But yeah, he had his boots there. But in the early days he wrestled barefoot. And that's the belt that got it all started for me, you know, when I was young. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Looking at that, that picture of your dad wearing the world championship title belt, you explained that that's how your fashion fascination with title belts got started. And then we'll get to it, but later on in the book. I mean, you've got a very deep passion for championship belts. What's your favorite title belt that you've seen? [00:08:28] Speaker B: The one that my dad's worn. And King Kong was another big wrestler my dad worked with in Asia, and he had a lot of belts and trophies, and they were my favorites as well. The. As for the American belts, the. The three major ones were probably my favorite. The NWA World title that Harley Race wore and the previous one that Buddy Rogers and Pat o' Connor wore. And the Inmate belt is such a special belt because of the history of it and how. How it was made. [00:08:58] Speaker A: So the National Wrestling alliance belt, you're talking about the crown Jewel belt, right? [00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:03] Speaker A: The one Harley Race, the one Dory Funk Jr. Wore, and Gene Kinisky and that. That one or the 10? [00:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah, both. The first one for 59 to 73 and then the 73 from. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah, the 10 pounds of gold. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so the 10 pounds of gold. I've come to be very partial to the crown jewel belt. As a matter of fact, I have a great replica of it. I don't have it displayed here yet. It's still in a moving box at my house. And I also have a copy of the 10 pounds of gold, too. But 10 pounds of gold was the world championship that I grew up with, because that was the one when I was a. You know, I just first started liking wrestling when I was 9, 10 years old. And I would get magazines, and of course in the magazines, the 10 pounds of gold belt was the one that the champion would wear. [00:09:57] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's a. Yeah, I love that belt, too. I mean, when Briscoe. When Jack Briscoe came here and defended in 73. Yes, it had the red. The red velvet on it. And. Yeah, that was a beautiful belt. [00:10:11] Speaker A: Now, what prompted you to zero in and focus on the AWA belts? [00:10:17] Speaker B: Well, I met up with a guy called Ken Lassig in Sydney, and he's an engraver, industrial engraver. He's not a belt maker. And we got started talking. I got. I'd like to make a couple of builds, especially because the ones of my dad's in King Kongs, they didn't survive. So I. I wanted to make replicas of it. And so that's how we got into making replica belts. And what I said to myself, okay, I want to make these replica belts, and then I want to do a book about all the belts in the world. Right? But, yeah, yeah, that's not Gonna. That's not gonna happen. I mean, you know the time and you know what I'm talking about. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:10:56] Speaker B: So I said, yk. Well, going to hone on certain belts that I've made because I love making replica belts. It's. It's just a hobby. It's not to sell because the amount of time that I put into making one, and you see in the book, some of my replicas in there, they're. They're top notch. I don't do anything if I. If I can't copy the belt as in the picture or I don't have a good picture, I can't do it. Because then if I do it and it's not good enough, I'll turn around and say, well, oh, geez, you know, he's a better picture. I need to change this again. I don't want to do that. So. So that's how the. Why I wanted to do the belt. But the main thing about this belt was that inmate build that Nick Rockwick will had that was made in the prison. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker B: The owner, Kanye in Japan is friends of mine. And once I looked at the belt and because from a distance, you don't really understand how much engraving is on there, what the detail is, but once I saw the detail of it, I go, wow, this built something special. Because hand engraving is an art form. It's like, you know, the old professional wrestling. It's an art form if you, you, you know, you really, really got to be good at it to do it. And that's how it started. So then I made a replica of the Police Gazette, built the snakeskin bill and the 86 and the 89 belt, the two later ones. My good friend Dave Milliken was worked with Reggie Parks, and he knew all about those two belts. So that's where I got my information from, that. [00:12:26] Speaker A: So you've made replicas of all six of the belts, right? [00:12:32] Speaker B: I haven't made the one. The other one that I liked was the. The WWF built. The Bob Backman built. Yeah, I haven't yet to make a copy of that because I had. I just don't have the right things to do it. The right photos and to do it properly. The guys have done it, but it's just not exactly how I want to do it. But I've done the NWA 10 pounds of gold belt. I've done the Pat O', Connor, Buddy Rogers, earlier one. Yeah. And then that's my next book that I'd like to do. I want to do my version of Those belts. Because you need to see. For me to do a belt book, you need to see if you don't have the original and you don't have a good replica of it, to me, I can't do it. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Because once you see a good replica, you can see, wow. That's how the belt looked, even though it's not the original. But my idea is wow, because I'm a belt guy. So that was my thing about doing it. [00:13:32] Speaker A: You know what's amazing to me, Lib, is when you. When you get a good replica belt, I'm always amazed at how heavy it is. You know, it's got some weight to it. There was a. There was a fellow when I was at the St. Louis hall of Fame this spring for this year, there was a fellow there who had a replica of the NWA Missouri title. And gosh, that thing was amazingly heavy. I mean, it had some weight. So, you know, it causes you to think, well, no wonder it. You know, you knocked a guy out with it. If you hit him with the belt, you know, it was. It was a sturdy, sturdy instrument. [00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but making a belt now, like. Like acid etching a belt like the Missouri built, it's. The plates are thicker, Right. The original bill is nowhere near that in. In weight wise. No way. Like, the. The inmate built maybe weighed not even three kilos, you know what I mean? The ones that you make now with the acid etching and all that. Yeah, that's like maybe 5, 6, 7, 8 kilos. So it's very heavy. But the old belts, no, they were made light so they can carry it around and so forth. [00:14:47] Speaker A: So when the AWA broke away from the National Wrestling alliance in 1960, and Verne decided to take the Minneapolis office off on a different path and go down a separate road from the National Wrestling Alliance. The first world title belt that he had created was the snakeskin belt, I think is what you call it in the book. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to call it something so you can relate to what I'm talking about. Well, he didn't actually create the snakeskin belt. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:19] Speaker B: The Omaha promotion, Joe Dusick in Omaha, when there's. When Carpentier beat fans for disqualification, there was a. And. And then the National Wrestling says, no, no, no, no, no. And then. And then they branched off. The world titles branched off from that. So he bought Carpetier to Omaha and Verde beat him for the title. That was the first time that snake skin belt was used. So the AWA wasn't even formed yet in 1960. That was 1958. [00:15:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:52] Speaker B: So when he. So when Ver did open up his. His new promotion, he started using that snake skin belt. [00:16:01] Speaker A: It's a very. I don't know if people can. Can see it, but it's. It's. It's this belt right here. And. And there we go. It's. It's this one. And it's the belt itself, the belt part, not the plates, but the belt part is very shiny. And it looks. Is it a gold color? It's. It's. [00:16:24] Speaker B: Yes, it's gold. It's a gold snakeskin. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And so. So what do you think of that belt, Lib? [00:16:32] Speaker B: I think all belts are great because, you know, the person that made it, the time, how they made it, you know what I mean? Like, that built some really, really simple belt. It's just like, you know, jewels, some leaves on it, stuck on the letters were cut out with rods, you know, like, to make it. It was all. I mean, it's. It was. It's a unique belt. Then they put a bit of, you know, a bit of wool rib, and then they stuck this, you know, snake skin on, you know, on it, which is, you know, different. You know what I mean? [00:17:05] Speaker A: The attention to detail that you. I mean, I. As a historian, my. My depth is probably more in the NWA than anywhere else, but I was amazed when I first started reading about the snakeskin belt. I was amazed that you had a photo of Verne's US Title belt and you actually correctly said it was the US TV title belt, which is. I'm like, okay, man, Lib is on it. He's got this down to, you know, perfect degree. And my friend George Shire, our mutual friend, was so happy that you made the designation that Verne was the first AWA champion and it wasn't Pat o'. Connor. [00:17:50] Speaker B: That's right. Well, I mean, as with the belts, like, they didn't really like, starting your own promotion up, you know, it wasn't his. You know, he started it up, but he kept on wrestling because that was his main thing. But the belt's a belt. It's just a prop to them, to us. Now we go, wow, why don't you do this with them? Why don't you save them? Why don't you polish it? You know, but back then, it's just like, you know, you dump it on the floor and. Okay, well, okay, this. Today. Okay. Next week we'll use an Omaha, and next week we won't use the Minneapolis. [00:18:19] Speaker A: It was. [00:18:19] Speaker B: It was just a tool, you know. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Yeah, a Lot of. I've heard a lot of wrestlers say it was a pain to lug those things around in your bag, you know, getting through airports or whatever. Here's a. Here's a photo right here of the NWA US TV title belt. I love that belt. I think. I mean, vern Gagne in 1959 and 60 was on fire here in the United States. He was a superstar on television. And before we went on the air, we talked about Fred Kohler and Jim Barnett. I mean, their primary star was Vern Gagne. And definitely. Yeah, and so definitely, like. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah, in the 50s. In the 50s when he won that TV title. Yeah, he. He was the biggest star. [00:19:05] Speaker A: And. [00:19:05] Speaker B: And I think jealousy from Lou Fez, the nwa, you know, their ego. They didn't want another, you know, another champion, you know, with Vern, can we trust him? Can we do this? So verb basically said, well, you don't want to give me a title? I crammed my own title. And that's what he did. And that's what he did. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And the National Wrestling alliance was actually at that time because in 1955, they had gone through the whole Monopoly investigation, and they were more than willing to allow there to be another federation out there just to show that they weren't being monopolistic. So it worked out for everybody. You can tell in your book that. I mean, I didn't really realize it until I got on into the book where you go into making some of your replicas, that you were also a belt replica maker. But you can tell, you go into amazing detail about how they did the belt and how they made the rods for it and all that. So it's just awesome. I mean, for a belt mark like myself, it's. It's very interesting. [00:20:19] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like I said, I'm. I'm a belt mark. I love belts. I've got a. I've got a. I've got a collection of wrestling belts. And it's like I said, the main thing is to get the. The size. The size right. The exact look like in the picture. That. That was my main. The detail. It's all in the detail. If you got the detail right, your belt's got to look amazing. And. And unfortunately, with belt makers, they're not me, I'm not selling it. So I can put 100 hours into it and get what I want to get. If they put 100 hours into it, they won't get the money for it. So they just do. They look at a photo, do it as quick as they can sell it. And that's it. But that's not. That's not what I like them to do because all they need to do is spend another couple of hours on the artwork. And they've got a great belt, but they don't. They just want to churn it out. And that's, to me, that sad as a. As a belt, as a belt mark. [00:21:21] Speaker A: And so that. That original snakeskin world title belt was used from 60 to 65. And then to me, the most fascinating belt in the whole book is the Police Gazette belt, which was used from 1966 to 1975 and earlier this year and a couple of podcasts, because we're covering 1975 on my podcast, we're going back 50 years ago to the Territory era. And we. In July of 75, that Police Gazette belt was stolen, and it was stolen at a ballpark in Davenport, Iowa. Not to give away too much about the book, but can you relate some of that story to more our listeners? And. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Well, I, I couldn't relate to it. My good friend, AWA historian Joyce Puste, she was there. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we've had that discussion. [00:22:14] Speaker B: That's right. She gave the account of it. I go, brilliant. And then I said, well, if this belt was stolen and there was police, there got to be reports. So I dug around, dug around and I got the reports. And to me, that was gold. That was gold because it shows you what Vern was saying, what the police were saying, what the. The. Some of the people that were caught up in it that were tried to. Were arrested, but they weren't arrested. I mean, those papers, if you got time to sit down and read all those transcripts, I love them. I thought that were great. [00:22:50] Speaker A: Oh, that's fantastic. And not only do you have all the police reports from the incident about the belt being stolen, you actually transcribed the television interviews that were done between Marty o' Neill and Vern Gagne and Marty o' Neill and Nick Bonkwinkel, which I also enjoyed reading. [00:23:10] Speaker B: And thanks again. Joyce Poustain, she had these cassettes and I said, would you have this? And she's dated everything. I go, oh, that is fantastic. Because it just pieces. Every part goes together so well. And especially when the belt was stolen, Verde went on TV saying, you know, oh, yeah, we're trying to get the belt back. And he said something about the belt goes back to John l. Sullivan in 1880. So Kay Fab. But it was great what he was saying. And then Nick would come and say, well, I don't have a belt. But it is going to be my bill. I mean, look, that's the whole. I love that whole business about, you know, the interviews and. And talking about the belt, and they were still talking about it, so it meant something. The belt at that time, you know, meant something. [00:23:55] Speaker A: You. Another just very nice touch. And my. My eyes just immediately just were so excited when I turned. And you actually have a picture of the ballpark. It's. It's not on that day, but you went and took a picture of the ballpark, which looks exactly the way it did in 1975 on the day and night that the belt was stolen. And you actually have a. From this angle, you can see the gate that the thief took when they. When they left the ballpark with the belt. Yeah. [00:24:29] Speaker B: And like I said, thanks, Joyce Bustein, because she was there and she described exactly. That's where the thief rang out. And you know what I mean? And look, the same thing is the person that stole the belt, I mean, you know, when you're 20 and you do silly things, you do silly things, and I try to contact his family, you know, to. To see this guy. Okay, he did something wrong when he was young, but he was a father, and. But no one got back to me because I wanted to, you know, to say, you know, okay, he did something wrong, but he was a good dad. You know what I mean? [00:25:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:04] Speaker B: And unfortunately, you know, the. The person, you know, he passed away. He drowned, you know, at the age of 44, which was very sad. [00:25:11] Speaker A: So. [00:25:11] Speaker B: And I put a little obituary in there because, you know, it's nice. You know, he's part of. He's part of the history. [00:25:18] Speaker A: Well, you know what I was thinking, and I wish I would have had this back in July, because when I saw that we were coming up on that thing in history in 1975, I'm like, I want to write something about that in my newsletter. And I asked George and I asked Joyce both, I said, hey, do you know anything about the AWA title being stolen in 1975? She goes, I was there. I said, you were? And she said, yeah. And so now, though, with your book, if you want to know what the AWA World Championship meant to fans in 1975, there's two pages of newspaper headlines about the belt being stolen. And Lib has those in the. In the. In the book. And it just shows you how important this championship was in the AWA cities. [00:26:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Well, I tried to pick, you know, every different city, you know, in America and North America, so they're all different ones there. I was hoping there was one from Australia or, you know, or England about it, but I couldn't find it. I was disappointed. Yeah. [00:26:30] Speaker A: And Vern didn't, he didn't travel out of the United States. He went to Japan a few times, but he was not the, and it's not, I'm not trying to lessen his title or title reign or anything, but he didn't travel worldwide like the NWA champion did. But in the United States, the title was still, especially in the Midwestern towns and the northern towns, the AWA geography, it was a big deal. So then after the title, the, the Police Gazette belt gets stolen. Then they replace it with this belt that a lot of people are going to be familiar with because it's a huge belt and it was on the COVID of all kinds of wrestling magazines. And I mean, this around the belly of a wrestler is just humongous. It's the, what's called the inmate belt, which is the large. It's almost like a large stop sign, octagon shape. Right. Library. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a big belt. [00:27:34] Speaker A: And it was used from 76 to 86. So give us a few things about the, about the inmate belt. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Well, as everyone knows, was made into prison. And I, I just try to set some, some of the facts straight in, in the book, a lot of people said there was two belts, one with a tan suede leather on the top, one with a black. But that wasn't the case. It would. It came out with a black, just one piece of black leather, which I couldn't believe. Again, Joyce Poustain showed me some photos that she took, and I'm going, joyce, what year was this photo? It's, it's just one piece of leather. And she goes, have you dated them? She goes, yes, I have. So she gave me all the dates, and that's what got me thinking. Okay, the belt came out with one piece of leather, didn't have Velcro. It had snaps on the side. Because in one of the photos in my book, you can see the snap on the side. So from there it became. They put the suede extra piece on, and then after that they change it to black. And then that's how the built evolved, which was, to me, that was so fascinating for, for a built guy. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:46] Speaker B: To know that information that no one knows about. [00:28:50] Speaker A: I love the quote. I love the quote by Al Dirusha in the, in the book. It just reflects Wrestling promoters in general, you know, because the quote was, I was surprised Verne wasn't having Reggie Parks make a new belt, but Wally Carbo knew some guy in prison who could make one. [00:29:10] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:12] Speaker A: Because Reggie, who worked in the Carolinas quite a bit and some other territories right now, in 1975, he had just worked a couple of years under a mask as the Avenger, but he. He was becoming the primary belt maker for all the territories. Right. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. That's definitely right. And he made. There's a picture of the American title that he made for the. For Fritz Von Erich in Texas. And that was basically the same version of the Police Gazette belt. Very, very similar. But, yeah, no, Richie, now, he's. He was a great belt maker, great wrestler. [00:29:52] Speaker A: I'm sorry if I missed it in the book, but have you made your own version of that American replica of the American championship? [00:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's in the book. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I must have missed it because I was wondering about that, because I seen that you said it was a. That one belt was a pattern after it. And I've been fascinated with that title because I saw the later one, which looked like a lot of other belts. The World TV championship in Crockett and the American Championship in Texas, they were kind of the same design with different colors and, of course, different letters engraved on it. But I was interested in the original one for sure. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I forgot what page it was on. It's. I'm just trying to find it. I've read the book, like, 5,000 times. [00:30:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I've. I looked through it in depth before we came on. I just didn't mark anything. You know, the book is such a beautiful book. I hate to mark it up. I almost need two copies. I need one to make a bunch of notes in. So what. What prompted the change away from the. The inmate belt to the next version in 86. [00:31:15] Speaker B: So that it's on page 175. Sorry. [00:31:18] Speaker A: That's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it. [00:31:21] Speaker B: Really. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Gotcha. Yep. No, that's all right. Yep, there it is. I remember seeing it now. Yeah, yeah, it's got the. Yeah. I remember thinking at the time when I saw the picture of the American title, I remember thinking, it looks like the North American title from Leroy McGurk, Oklahoma Territory. [00:31:45] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. That's the other similar one that he made as well, which is very similar about the North American one. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So the. The. The inmate belt. So what brought it to a conclusion. What, what caused the change to the next title Built. [00:32:03] Speaker B: Stan Hansen was the probably main reason. But, yeah, like we all know, he stole the belt and then returned the belt. They said. They said it was in pieces, but it wasn't returned in pieces. The belt was. The belt was just damaged from before. All the jewels were gone in the belt. I explained how many jewels were left over, what it started with and what it ended with. But besides, you know, a heavy weight, you know, bending the plates a bit. Other than that, it was like that probably for the last year of its life. And then when Stan took the belt, Vern ordered another belt, and they gave that belt to Nick as a. As a thank you for his services to the AWA promotion. [00:32:49] Speaker A: So the inmate belt, Nick has it or had it then? [00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Nick had it. And then as in, in the book, as well, it. It shows you from when the belt finished, what Nick did with it, he took it around to fan shows and displayed it everywhere for many years. Tried to sell it, auction it. Didn't work. Then finally in Japan, the. The Kanye, the guy that owns it now, has the belt, but he didn't auction it in America. He auctioned it in Japan because he. He says it himself that he loved a Japanese person having the bill because they would cherish it more than the American, because Japanese, they. They look at Nick Bockle as a God. America, they look at me as a great wrestler. Yeah, it's a. It's a big difference. They got a lot more respect for the wrestlers, the Japanese. I'm not saying that's a bad, bad thing. The Americans don't or the Australians don't, but they have a lot more respect. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Well, they just have a lot more respect for cultural items. They're very much that way with music as well. I mean, you would walk up to the average person in America who claims to be a music lover, and you talk to them about jazz music from the 1940, 40s and 50s, and they're lost. They don't even know what you're talking about. You walk up to a music connoisseur from Japan, they've got all the vinyl records of the jazz era. You know, I mean, they probably have the trombone that was used in a session or a trumpet that was used in a session. So overall, as a people, you're very right. They're. So. They value cultural, especially popular cultural items. Very, very. With a reverence that is not necessary in the United States. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah, now, I didn't know that about the music, but I Knew reading and talking about the wrestling part. Yeah, it was like you said, exactly the same. A lot of respect. [00:34:56] Speaker A: So the new belt, it doesn't last but a couple of years. Right? I mean, Nick. It was presented to Nick, who was the champion in 86, and then in 89, they. They switch it again. So what happened there, Lib? [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah, they again with Jerry Lawler took the belt because he didn't get paid for a Show in. In 88. And then fern had to make another build up. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Was that the Super Clash show? [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Super. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Super Clash 3, where he. He. It was a unification match. Right. With Carrie Von Erich. [00:35:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:42] Speaker A: And Lawler was the AWA champion. And then he claims he didn't get paid for it, so he took the title belt with him. [00:35:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And then he used that built for his USWA unified world title promotion. And then. And then in 80, and then because of that, another build had to be made. So Jerry had that belt, he kept it with him, and then Verd basically forgot about it and then had to get another new bullet makeup. The 89 built, which. Which is in the book. And that is still survived that one. That's with the Garnier family. I think at the moment. [00:36:31] Speaker A: You'Re. You know, one of the things I really pay attention to when I read a. Well, any book, but because I'm interested in how did. How did this author come up with all of this information? And so I'm always interested in the note section. I'm also interested in the acknowledgment section about who are the people that that helped. And I was actually kind of excited this year because my name finally ended up in an acknowledgment section of a wrestling book that I helped out with. But your acknowledgement section in this book is just phenomenal because you don't just. You know, most of the time when you read the acknowledgments of a wrestling book or any book, it's just a list of names, Right. It's just a paragraph full of. I'd like to thank these people who were instrumental in helping me with this book. And then there's name after name after name after name. Well, in your book, you actually list the name of the person and you put photos of them and in a lot of cases, some of their contributions that they made to the book. How did you decide to do that? [00:37:38] Speaker B: Well, without these people, Tony, I've got no book. And any book that I do. Right. Honestly, 80, you need help with it. There's always someone that knows more than you. And, and without these people, this book cannot be possible. So I, I wanted to make sure that I highlight these people that helped me with the book, with the photo. And a lot of them are collect, got collections. I asked them if you want to put a photo of yourself in there and a write up of yourself, because people like to know, yeah. You know, who these people are and what they do. And we all love collections, people's collections and what they do. That's what we love about. That's what I love about the history of wrestling. [00:38:24] Speaker A: I, I've always wondered, where does Chris Swisher keep all these photos? And there's a great photo in your book of Chris with his files. I love that. I love that. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I said to Chris, when I know you don't have a bill of one of the. But show me the picture of Nick Bockwick or hold it up for me. So everyone that's taken a photo like, David Milligan's got the belt, George Shire's got the belt. Chris has got the photo, Joyce has got the, the bill. Actually, the built that Joyce is holding, I, I made that for her. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Because she helped, she helped me so much, you know, I said, okay, I'll. I'll do something, you know, because she wanted a really good replica. So. [00:39:06] Speaker A: And, and you talk about, you talk. We, we mentioned Reggie Parks, who made a lot of belts in the territory days in the 70s, and you talk about him with a lot of reverence in a book. But another guy who was, who's a belt maker also that you talk about with a high regard is Dave Milliken. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, Dave. I mean, he's a legend. The one after Reggie Parks. Yeah, he's the second. The second one after Reggie and his knowledge of wrestling belts, especially with the 86 and 89 belt. Well, that was. I couldn't have done those chapters without him. I could have done it, but not as good. Yeah, that's what I've done. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Well, Liv, let me just ask you here in just a few minutes that we have remaining. I mean, when you wrote this book all about the belt, which is the history of all the world championships of the American Wrestling Association. What, what's your hope for anybody that buys this book and puts it in their, their wrestling library? What, what is in your heart for people when they pick up this book. [00:40:11] Speaker B: But to learn about the history of, of the belts, the association, how belts are made and what belts were back then to the wrestlers that's that, that would be my main, my main thing. Because look, as you, I don't know if you know, but doing a belt, doing a book, any book, you don't make money, right? Only if you're, you know, Bryce Courtney or something like that. I mean, this took me like, I think four years, right? And because this is my first built book and I don't do things half, half cocked. I do it 100, I'm gonna do it all in. So my next book, it won't take so long because this is the, the ground, the groundbreaking one, you know, to see people. Oh, who's lamenta you? Why do I have to buy his book? And so if my name gets out there and people know that I've done a book, I'm. I'm happy about that. Whether I saw 1 or 50 or 100, I don't really care. That's not the point. The point of these, I've got the information to get the book out for history. And if it, and if it helps one person or helps a belt maker make his belt better, I've done my job. [00:41:21] Speaker A: You know, that's, that's, that's totally in alignment with the whole pro wrestling time tunnel, which is my platform. With my newsletters that I write and the podcasts that I do and all the things I do, it only focuses on the territory era, and it's primarily there to educate and help younger fans and more modern fans understand the history of the territory era. And you fit right in with that, with this book, because your mission for writing the book is exactly the same as mine, that there would be some record out there of these very instrumental title belts from the AWA that people will have for years to come. [00:42:13] Speaker B: That's exactly right. I'm glad that's what you're doing. There's not many of us, really. There's a lot of historians now because, you know, you can go to newspaper.com and you can research, you know, Memphis from 1920 to 1950, and you can write a book on it. I mean, it's that easy. When I did my book in 98, I spent five years at the library newspapers, and I missed half the stuff because you. I didn't know what I was looking for. You just random. [00:42:42] Speaker A: Random. [00:42:43] Speaker B: But now with the, you know, with the advent of the Internet and online newspapers, I can redo my 100 years wrestling book. Especially the early years. [00:42:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:42:54] Speaker B: There's so much information there. But yeah, like I said, I, I respect what you do. I respect people that talk about the History for what it is. And to get the accuracy right. 100 accuracy. If it's not right. Right. Then why even say it, you know. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, even with accessing all the newspaper that's available, you still have to do digging to get to the bottom of the real story. If, if you want to have an accurate telling of what happened. And you know, in writing the Dory Funk Senior book, there's maybe five video clips of him that even survive. So there's, there's not a lot of that. And with Jim Barnett, I mean there's, he wasn't a performer on screen, so there's no real video like that out there except for the documentary that you made. And so, you know, I was telling somebody the other day, if you have watched the Territory era on video, you've seen less than 20% of the territory era. Because, you know, we got video. Let's say, let's just for all intents and purposes, we got a lot of our video Starting in 1980. Well, in 1980, a lot of territories were going out of business. It was the end. And so going back to the mid-30s and the early 40s when the territories actually started forming geographically all the way to 1985 or 86 or 88, you know, that's the major part of the Territory era. So that means on video we've got maybe five years. And for a lot of people, they think that they've seen the Territory era when actually they've only saw, you know, just such a small part of it. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Yeah, look, it's, it's difficult, you know, when you're trying to tell people about history, you know, a 20, 30 year span, say like World Championship Wrestling in, you know, in 14 years, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of years, you know, and that territory that had 600 wrestlers. 600 wrestlers in that territory. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:15] Speaker B: You know, that's another book that I want to do as well. It'll be a bio, it'll be a bio of WCW wrestlers. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Well, this, this year, and I'll, I'll get this in real quick because the Wrestling observer hall of Fame, I'm advocating and pushing for Roy Welch to be elected in the non wrestler category. And the problem, the reason he hasn't been elected is because we have a lot of modern voters that there is no way they can truly understand the impact that Roy Welch had. Because his impact is from the 1930s to the mid-1970s. And he affected the wrestling business in ways that are hard to Understand? And there are only a few of us still around that were alive back then, and even I was alive at the end of his dynasty. But this guy had four generations of family in the wrestling business and he's the father of Southern wrestling in the United States and should be in the hall of fame. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately you're 100, I want to say. Unfortunately, you're 100 right in what you said. Look, if, if someone hasn't heard of someone, they don't care. It is simple as that. And that's the sad part. Like, like what you're saying is, I agree, the. These people like Roy Welsh & Co, that did so much for wrestling and no one knows about it today, they shouldn't be inducted. You know, which is, which is, it's a no brainer for me, you know, because I'm, I'm, I'm probably younger than you. I, I didn't really grow up with the, the wrestling business, but I understand it now. I didn't when I was young. I go, you know, winning and losing. What's that? You know what I mean? [00:47:11] Speaker A: Like. Right. [00:47:11] Speaker B: But you know, and then, and then you get these things where you get books where they do the top 100 wrestlers. It's impossible to mix Hulk Hogan with Jim Londos. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:23] Speaker B: It's impossible to mix, you know, Kurt Angle with Dara Singh or my dad or George Gordienko or, you know, because to me, George Gordienko and, and George Penchief and John De Silva and my father, these guys were shooters. You know what I mean? [00:47:43] Speaker A: Billy Joy. Billy. Billy Joyce. [00:47:46] Speaker B: That's right, Billy Joyce, Luther Lindsay, you know, less Thorn. And I know some of these guys, what they, what they could do and what they have done, you know, and, and you can't you try to explain it to people what, what that is back then, you know, and they don't really don't understand, you know, and that's. [00:48:06] Speaker A: And that for me, Liv is a driving force for. To do these things. To do these things because it's up to you and me and, and people like us like Tim Horn and Steven Johnson and Brian R. Solomon and Greg Klein and all these people and a lot of people I have on this show, it's our, it's our accountability to tell these stories. [00:48:28] Speaker B: No, no, no, you're right. I mean, look, I love what you're doing and I'm happy to come on again and talk about any other wrestling thing. I know a lot about Asia wrestling. [00:48:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:40] Speaker B: India, Pakistan. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Good. [00:48:42] Speaker B: New Zealand, Australia. So if you want to talk about that. [00:48:44] Speaker A: We. We definitely should. And we should talk about Australia. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Australia. Yeah, it was. It was huge. [00:48:51] Speaker A: And we need to. And, and I realize that from 75 on, we're. We're talking about the slow decline, but I still would like to discuss it and talk about it sometime. [00:49:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Watch my documentary, over the top rope.com and you'll get so much information. I'd love to hear your feedback too. [00:49:11] Speaker A: I'm gonna. I'm gonna give it to you because I'm gonna watch that as soon as we get finished with this show, so. [00:49:16] Speaker B: All right. Thanks very much and I appreciate everyone, and if you get a chance to have a look at my book and support me, I appreciate it. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Thank you. That's. That's what we're here for. That's what we're doing. Libnan Ayub is the author. It's all about the Belt. The World Heavyweight Championship Title Belts of the American Wrestling Association, 1960-1990. Lib, I appreciate the labor of love that you put into this. Where can people get the book? [00:49:44] Speaker B: You can get it from Amazon.com or you can, if you want a signed copy, you can go to my website, over the top rope.com click on the book and you can purchase it there. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Lib, I appreciate you. I'm glad that we've become friends and I will make sure and promote the book. Okay? [00:50:03] Speaker B: Definitely. Thanks, Tony. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Libnan Abube, everybody. [00:50:08] Speaker B: That was good, Tony. [00:50:10] Speaker A: Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my good friend Lib Ayub, who has written this fantastic new book. I'm holding it up for those of you watching on video. It's all about the belt. The World Heavyweight title belts of the American Wrestling Association, 1960-1990. And this is a fantastic book. Color photos on the inside of all. An amazing detail of all the AWA championship belts. And of course, as you heard in the conversation, Lib discussed each of them and their particular interesting characteristics, how they were, how they were developed in the history and all of that, including that amazing story about the belt being stolen in Davenport, Iowa, that just amazes me. So be sure and get that book if you're a. If you're a title belt mark like I am and. Or a collector of belts, you need this book because Lib, he goes into detail about how the quality belts are made and why and the inlets and all that stuff. It's. It's fantastic. So get that book. And I'm so appreciative and I can't wait for Lib to come back and join us, talk about Australian wrestling coming up in a show next year. Okay. Let's talk about questions and answers. So on this edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, we're going to have our first segment covering Q and A. And I've got a few questions here that have been sent in. We'll start with Steve Genarelli's question about. I'm interested to know about the Tony Richards origin story and how he became obsessed with pro wrestling. Okay. So I'm really not just obsessed with pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is part of a larger scope here. I'm really obsessed with storytelling and entertainment. Those are the things overall, like, when I was growing up as a kid, I loved music. I loved records. One of the favorite, my most favorite things to do was play my grandmother's records. I stayed at my grandmother's house a lot of time when I was a kid growing up because my mom had to go get a job and work. And a lot of times in the late 60s, early 70s, women weren't necessarily doing that. They weren't necessarily going out and getting a job. A lot of times you had stay at home moms back in that era. My mom couldn't do that. Our family couldn't afford for her to do that. My dad was a farmer and a horse trainer and, you know, didn't make a whole lot of money. My family owned a store here in the town that I grew up in, and my dad worked for my grandfather as an employee. And so to, to survive and to bring money in the household, my mom went to get a job at a paper manufacturer. They manufactured business forms at a town about 15 miles up the road. And so she was gone quite a bit when I was a kid growing up. And I stayed at my grandmother's house on my dad's side, my dad's mother, and she had a record collection. And one of the things I do to entertain myself was listening to those records, those albums, and I have all of those albums in my music collection still today. And so. But she also had a television. And so I liked watching tv. I liked watching stories on television. I like watching shows of that era that were telling stories. And I loved the. I loved country music because country music had songs that told great stories. I also then grew up to love rock music or whatever. But in 1972, I found wrestling, and wrestling was like my comic book that was coming to life. Like it was real human beings on television doing these very physical and amazing things. And it was pretty much a good Versus evil story that was playing out on television every single week. And this wrestling promotion that I discovered in 1972 on television, one of them was Gulas Welch. The other one was Phil Golden's All Star Wrestling. We just got a brand new UHF station. It was our first UHF station in our area. All the other stations were VHF. VHF is channels 2 through 13. UHF stations were channels above channel 13. So we got a channel, channel 29, which was WDXR television out of Paducah, Kentucky. And they taped the wrestling matches there in the studio in Paducah. And in, I think it was 1973, they brought a wrestling show to my elementary school in Salem, Kentucky, that I went to. And I got to see wrestling live. And Mob Bass, who I now know is was Mae Weston, was there with her sons, Don Bass, Roy Bass and Ron Bass, the Bass brothers, and they were the heels. Saul Weingrof and the Von Brauners tag team were heels in the territory. The bad guys and the Bass brothers were heels. Those were the top two heel teams. And the Bass brothers and Ma Bass came to my elementary school to. I can't remember even who the baby faces were that they were wrestling, but Ma Bass had the crowd just, I mean, worked up to a fever pitch. She took a gimmick that I now know was originally Vern Bottom's gimmick in Oklahoma, where she carried a brick in her purse. And whenever she had an opportunity, when the referee got distracted, she'd whack that baby face in the head with that purse with a brick in it. And that would just drive people insane. They wanted to get a hold of Ma so bad. And all of that emotion, I'm just taking it in. It was also the first time I ever saw blood in a wrestling match was there in Salem, Kentucky, in my little elementary school. And those. Those emotions and those images are still so vivid to me today that I just loved it. I mean, I just thought it was fantastic. I mean, you know, wrestling has its roots in carnivals and sideshows, and this was like the most fantastic carnival show come to life right in front of my very eyes. I thought it was amazing on television, but when I saw a live event, I was 10, you know, 10 years old, and all of that going on, like, wow, this is amazing. And then the fact that it wasn't something that happened all the time, you know, I found a neighbor who lived down the road from us, right here where my. My home is now, on our family ranch. There's a neighbor that lived just down the road who went to Evansville, Indiana every Wednesday night to the wrestling matches. And once or twice a month I'd get in the car with them and catch a ride with them and. And go to Evansville to watch the wrestling matches all through the 70s. Then in high school, once I got my driver's license, my best two best friends in high school, we went to see ICW matches and I still went to go see Jarrett matches and Goulas matches. And my friends and I, we would go to the Paducah National Guard Armory and we'd watch the ICW matches where Randy Savage was just kind of starting out. He was about four years in the business and he and Bob Roop were having great matches. He and Ronnie Garvin were having great matches. They had an amazing crew of workers. Randy Savage, Lanny Poffo, Ronnie Garvin, Rip Rogers, Doug Vines and Jeff Sword and Pez Whatley. I mean, they had some good, good workers on their roster. And so we saw some of the most amazing matches with 250, 300 people and in these armories and these small buildings around Kentucky when they were running from like 1979 to 1984 or so, 85, whenever they shut down. So that whole period of time and this summer when I was in Waterloo, Iowa at the Trago Steve hall of Fame, I got to approach Bob Roop and have a conversation with him and get to know him and I got to tell him how much I really appreciated his work back then. I know the ICW Poffo experience was not a highlight in his career and not necessarily some great memories for him, but I wanted him to know that for me it was extremely important. Bob Group and Bob Orton Jr. For the ICW TV title is one of the greatest matches I've ever seen live and one of the greatest programs I've ever seen for that period of time where they were going at it before, you know, Bob left to go to Mid south and then it wasn't long ago Orton Jr. Followed and went to but for the at that time, those were some pretty fantastic matches. And that all fueled my passion for pro wrestling. It all started with that spark in 72 on television when I saw it the first time, then in 73, first live event, then more live events, then more live events. And I think that's the progression for most people is you see it on tv, you go to a show, you get excited about the live show and you keep going and you keep watching and keep going and keep watching. And so that's kind of the Tony Richards origin story. And then, you know, for the last 20 years or so, I kept saying to myself, you know, when I get ready to go into semi retirement and I start winding down my active career, I'm going to pick up this wrestling historian thing and I'm going to write some books. And I had a list of books I wanted to write if nobody had written them by the time I got to that spot. And I'm going to start being active in some hall of Fame events and maybe have a podcast. And all the things that you see with the pro Wrestling Time Tunnel were things that I thought of 15, 20 years ago. I just didn't have time to invest in doing them and putting the energy and time into what I wanted it to be, because I wanted to be good. And so that's kind of how I've morphed into what you're exposed to today is something I've thought about for a really long time. Just didn't have the time that I could afford to invest in it to do it. But now that I've cut my client list down and I'm only working with just a few select clients here for the next three to five years, I have time that I can invest in things that I'm passionate about, and wrestling is one of those things. And for the next ever, how long my life lasts, I'm going to be investing time into preserving history, building the pro wrestling time tunnel as a place where fans can come and learn about the territory era. And that's my singular focus. So, you know, that's kind of the Tony Richards origin story. Okay, let's get to Steve's second question, which was, what were the peak years of the territory era? And I know you kind of limited it from 1960 to 1990, but really that's kind of in the heart of when the peak was. So you almost have to broaden that scale out just a little bit. Now, for me, I just worked on a model not long ago, and this goes back to my consulting career, where I think to understand things, you need a framework by which to be able to have it make sense to you. And that gives you a module that you then have some boundaries around, and it forms a paradigm to help you with your thinking. So I just sat down and scribbled out a model here just the other night. Here I got tons of these yellow legal pads laying around, because I grab them for notes and for scribbling, and it's easier for me to scribble and strike through than it is backspace and erase. And so I like scribbling and making notes and sometimes doodling, because I have these, I call them brain dumps, where I've got all this stuff flying through my mind and I have to get some of it down on paper or else, like, it's gone. And it's like, yeah, what was that thing I was thinking about the other day that was so good I can't remember. It's like, gone. So I learned a long time ago to carry these yellow pads around like an attorney would or an accountant or my journal. You know, I carry my journal book around and I have to have something to write stuff down on or, you know, and I've gotten to the habit of just hitting record on my phone and, and talking. If I'm driving somewhere, I'll just hit that record button and spew it all out and then go back and listen to it later and it'll spark the thought. But if I don't do that, four other things could happen and other people could call me and I'll get my mind going in a different direction and I can't remember where it was. Okay, So, I mean, if. If you go back to when wrestling started being a circuit, right, A formalized circuit where people went from town to town. I mean, you can go all the way back to the 1800s, where it was in carnivals and vaudeville shows and where wrestlers were getting paid for paying audiences. And so even those, you know, mix of legit contests where they'd actually take on people from the crowd and have stage performances, and you'd have carnival owners booking wrestlers for regular shows at fairs or traveling circuits. I mean, I almost have to cut some of that out just because we're still just starting to mine the information in those years of professional wrestling. So in my sort of way of thinking about the business, it always is starts on a five. So if I start like in 1925, I think. I think the concept of wrestling territory solidified. Then around 1925, I mean, you had four people really pulling the strings of wrestling talent in the United States. You had Lou Darrow on the west Coast. You had Morris Siegel in Houston. You had Tom Pax in St. Louis, you had Jack Curley in New York. And then, you know, you had. Within that, you had Tootsmont and Billy Sandow. And some of those people, they were starting to set up offices. They were starting to manipulate and work talent around to different places. I was just studying this for my Dorie Funk book I'm writing. You know, I really think like the first recognized Circuit was around 1928, and it had the top 12 to 15 cities in America sort of included in there. And it was when Tom Pax and Siegel and these guys put the first trust together where they began working with the National Wrestling association, which was made up of athletic commissions and those kinds of things. So I think you almost have to say the formation period, which was kind of the first. So this. This framework that I've got written down here that helps me think about the Territory era. The first stage of the territory era would be what I call formation. And formation would be from either 1925 or 1928 to 1945, because in those years, the circuits were starting to get formed. These major talent brokers, the Pacs, the Seagulls, the Darrows, the Curleys, they were managing wrestling talent and sending them around to a regular circuit of major cities. Now, what happened in 1941 was we got in World War II, and when Japan attacked Pearl harbor in December of 1941, well, that took the wind out of the sails on almost all professional sports in the United States, including wrestling. And so there still was pro wrestling from 1941 to 1945, but it was very sparse, and it was in very specific areas. So there's a section there from 41 to 45, like Amarillo was dark those years. Amarillo had no wrestling in it from 1941 to 1945, because Dutch mantel, the original Dutch Mantel, who was the promoter in Amarillo, and he was promoting a small circuit of towns in round West Texas. He was promoting Lubbock, and he was promoting. Well, he was sending talent. He wasn't promoting. Sled Allen was promoting in Lubbock, but Dutch Mantel was sending his guys that he was training in Amarillo at his school. He was sending them to Pampa, he was sending them to Lubbock. He was sending them around to, you know, a handful of towns. And then he died in 1941. And there were no. There was no wrestling in Amarillo until 1946, when Dorie Denton came in and started establishing a new booking office in Amarillo. And he started piecing together that old territory of Mantell's of a handful of towns. And then he started expanding upon it, which caused a lot of political problems in the National Wrestling Alliance. And that takes us, you know, at the end of World War II, in 1945, it's only three years later, in 1948, when the National Wrestling alliance was formed. And so that's stage two. I call that investigation and unification. Now, the unification part of it was when the National Wrestling alliance was formed, because that put a lot of the talent back in the hands of people that were not those other trust guys, right? And Mushnik had an issue in St. Louis. He was getting beat in St. Louis. He was not making any progress against Tom Pax. Tom Pax was in partnership with Lou Thes. They held the National Wrestling association world title. Sam Mushnick had been an employee of Tom Pax and had been his public relations and sports information guy. And he felt like he got cheated on a boxing match payoff that he had booked and promoted in St. Louis. And he felt like Pax did not pay him fairly for that. And he thought he could go out and do wrestling on his own. And he went out and started promoting in St. Louis against Packed. And he got his clock cleaned and he continued to get his. He ran a couple of shows in the early 40s. Then he quit, went into World War II, enlisted in the armed services. Came back after World War II in 1945, started promoting again and again started getting his butt handed to him by Tom Pax and Luthez. They were the big gorilla. And I tell people all the time, I don't comment a lot about current wrestling, but a lot of times when there are people who. They want a fight between promotions, they want a wrestling war in their lifetime as a fan. And so they. They get into tribalism between the WWE and the AEW or the NWA or the TNA or whoever the Alphabet soup is that you want to throw into the mix. And they want to see a fight between these people when that is not what's best for business. What's best for business is when people figure out how to strategically approach the marketplace with a product that people want to see on a mass appeal basis. The trick is to get a niche and expand upon it. And you do that not by directly attacking your competitor. That's like going into a quicksand bog. Because when you directly attack a competitor that's bigger than you, they just sit on everything you do. They can control it because they have a larger audience, they have larger. Everything is bigger. So you have to be able to carve out of the available marketplace enough people to watch your product, to carve out your own space. Now, you know, in the wrestling war of the 90s, a very unique situation happened where WWF was at its weakest, and all of a sudden WCW became at its strongest and the two sides flipped in the marketplace. And it only happened for A couple of years. Then it flipped back the way it was before because the traditional leader came to their senses and started tapping in to make their product better. And then the leader was re established as a leader again. When you're attacking the leader, you are using resources, you're using up valuable things on your side for very little return. So the trick is to carve out a place in the marketplace. And that's what Mushnik did in two different ways. In one way, he went out, and I'm probably going on more here than you really wanted as far as getting your question answered. But he went out and he got a different kind of performer that drew people to his promotion. Pax had Lou Thes. Well, Mushnik, through the help of Jack Pfeffer, got Buddy Rogers. And Buddy Rogers had gotten over in Texas, and he had gotten over in Los Angeles as this brand new hottest thing in wrestling. And when Mushnick started bringing Buddy Rogers into St. Louis is when he started really making some inroads into the marketplace. Nowadays we think of Sam Mushnick as always being the dominant wrestling promoter in St. Louis, and he wasn't. He was very minuscule and was having a hard time getting established. But Buddy Rogers coming in to his territory and doing the high spots that he was doing for the time was revolutionary. And people flocked to buy a ticket to see Buddy Rogers. He began to have a product that people wanted to see versus the product that people had a habit of seeing, which was PAX product. The second thing that happened was the National Wrestling alliance got formed in 1948 in Waterloo. He was one of the six promoters that went there, and they were looking to establish a co op in order to have a cooperative group of promoters who could share talent and not have to deal with the big booking offices. And so what's interesting is the National Wrestling lines actually turned into the thing that they were fighting against, because they were fighting against Pax and Siegel and Darrow and the people who were controlling the talent. And they wanted a credible world champion in just their territories in the Midwest, just in Kansas City, just in Iowa, in their smaller towns in Des Moines and Davenport, Iowa and places. Pinky George wanted a world champion he could count on on a regular basis in his towns. And he wasn't getting that with Lou Thes and the National Wrestling association, because Lou Thes hated going to small towns. Even when he, you know, went over to the National Wrestling alliance and became the champion there, and working with Muchnik, he still hated going to small towns. He called Them, the tank towns. I don't want to go to the tank towns. And that was what was happening, is the tank towns got together and formed their own little alliance, the National Wrestling Alliance. And that gave Sam Mushnick, then with Pinky George and with the other people that he got into partnership with that gave him talent that he could pull from on a regular basis to help him draw money in St. Louis. And then the third thing that happened was television. And so when he got television, that put rocket fuel on everything. And he had a big television star in Buddy Rogers. And so that helped him move forward. So I call that unification and investigation. So in 1954 and 55, the National Wrestling alliance came under investigation by the United States government about being at a monopoly of controlling the business of wrestling. Think about this. It started in Waterloo with six little promoters who just wanted to share talent. And by 1953 and 54, they were controlling wrestling in the known world at the time, which was mainly North America. They were controlling it. They were deciding where talent was going, whether they were working with talent or not working with talent. The whole issue of blackballing guys and all that came to the forefront. They were getting sued by, you know, Anton Leone and all these different people bob out their business practices about controlling wrestling. And so the investigation part of it really kind of hurt the business, hurt the territories, because even though in the 1955 convention they voted unanimously to continue the National Wrestling alliance, even in the face of the scrutiny and all of that, they had all this confidence in Mushnik that he was going to navigate through it. And he did. However, it took so much out of him. He was never the same again after that. And so that is the. From 1945 until 1960 is really the unification and investigation segment. Then we get to stage three from 1960 to 1975. And so that is stage three. Three, yeah, stage three, which is separation and consolidation. You had some people drop out of the alliance. You had others really consolidate around it. And really what you had there in the 1960s was you had a change of power. The power started gravitating away from St. Louis and started gravitating toward Texas and Florida. And the two powers in that equation were Doc Sarpolos and Dorie Funk in Texas and Eddie Graham in Florida. So when you Notice all the NWA world title changes happened in either St. Louis or Toronto because of the relationship between Tunney and Mushnik, that's where all the title changes occurred until you get to the mid-60s, and from the mid-60s on, you started seeing the title change in Tampa, Florida. You started seeing the title change in Kansas City, you saw the title change in Houston, Texas. You saw the title change in Miami, Florida. And the title changes in St. Louis didn't happen anymore because the power structure of the whole organization from 1960, 1975 shifted. And so those are the peak years of the territory era, in my opinion. Is that 10 or 15 years between 1960 and 1975. I think that's when the territory system, the National Wrestling alliance at one point had over 40 members in it. And remember, that's not promotions, that's booking offices, 40 booking offices. There were countless promoters, countless towns that were getting their talent from these 40 to 45 booking offices. And in my opinion, that is the peak, probably from 1960 to 1970 really is the peak of the territory system, because from 1975 to 1985, the foundation is cracking. And I call that the fragmentation phase. From 1975 to 1985, the Territory System started fragmenting and you had enormous amount of booking offices go out of business, you had LA go out of business, you had San Francisco go out of business, you had Detroit go out of business, you had the Gulf coast region go out of business or get sold off, all of these places. Fritz pulling out and really focusing just on Dallas and the immediate Dallas area. You had Bosch then going to Mid south for his talent, you had Joe Blanchard, you know, doing his thing. All these major offices and territories begin to fragment. And so by 1985, and that's why I always say, if you see territory wrestling on videotape from 1980 to 1985, you see just the little fragment of what the territory system used to be. Because from 1985 to 1990, you have disintegration. That's the final phase. 5. So from 75 to 85, fragmentation. From 85 to 90, disintegration. So that by the time the early 90s come around, you have no territories really remaining that what you would call really real territories. So I hope that answers your question. I think 1960 to 1970 is really the peak of when the territory era and territory system was at its strongest. And I can expound on that if people have follow up questions about it or other questions that you want me to answer. Spent quite a bit of time on that. Jamie Ward, this is a guy I really, really respect, he does a bunch of podcasts over with Wrestlecopia and Ray Russell. They do a couple of different ones. I couldn't possibly name all the different podcast shows. That Jamie's on, but he does a fantastic job and I'm really honored that he would take the time to ask me a question. He wants to know what World Change match. World Title Change Match WWWF AWA NWA Would you have wanted to be live in person for? All right, so this is a little complicated as well. So I think if I were just to tell you the first thing that comes to my mind is I would want to be ringside in 1961 in Comiskey park in Chicago for the Buddy Rogers Pat o' Connor title change. I've watched that match I don't know how many times. I think it is a fantastic professional wrestling match that stands the test of time. I think it. I think it's a great wrestling match in the past. I think it would be a great wrestling match now, and I think it would be a great wrestling match in the future. And if you haven't taken the time to go to YouTube and watch that match, it's the title change where O' Connor loses to Buddy Rogers in Comiskey park, which held the attendance record for years and gross revenue record for years. I think if I were just answering that off top of my head, that'd be the one that I'd like to be at now. There's some other honorable mentions that I'll throw out there that would be very close to. To that. I would have liked to have been in the ringside for the superstar Graham Bruno title change. Because these couple that I'm going to mention now are title changes that nobody suspected. So let me do the other one first. So 1969 in Tampa, Dori Funk Jr beats Gene Kaniski at the Gasparilla Festival. I'd love to have been there. I would have loved to been there for that match. Then the other two are the superstar Graham Bruno Sammontino match where the crowd went silent. I would have loved to been ringside for that one just because I would like to. We can watch it on videotape and we can see how quiet and how much heat is building and white heat was building in the crowd. When they realize what has happened that superstar Graham. And then they're walking away going, ah, they're going to go on television and reverse that. Like that isn't going to hold. Like I want to be there to feel the vibe of that. I would love to be able to remember what that was like being there when that happened. And the other one was Miami, where Terry Funk defeated Jack Briscoe when all the advertising and everything was out that it was going to be a Dory Funk Jr. And Jack Briscoe match. And then when you are sitting in the arena they announced that Dori Funk Jr's plane is late is not going to make it. We're coming up on the 50th anniversary of that match here just in a few weeks and Howard Baum and I are going to be talking about it in depth and it's always Howard's big, big wrestling omission was not going to that Miami card. And I would have loved to been there with Howard at ringside for that match. And one that another title change that was completely unexpected. Even the smartest people back in the day that thought they were in the know didn't know. And to see Terry win that title on that night completely unexpected and unadvertised would have been pretty awesome. So those are my kind of four picks so definitely would have liked to been at Comiskey park and then the Funk junior win in Tampa, the Superstar Graham win and the the Terry Funk win in Miami. The Dory Funk book and the relationship between Funk and Sarpolis buying Dory Detonate. Well I talked about that just about bit ago when I was talking about the territories. Thank you so much for that question Lee Florida so the book I'm writing Dori Funk Senior the King of the Texas Death Matches and this kind of plays into the history of wrestling in San Antonio question I'm going to tackle here in a second which I I won't do as good a job as Greg Klein would have done but I'll take a stab at it. So really Funk Senior was not part of the buying out of Dorie Denton. Doc Sarpolos went in there and Dory Denton was having relationship problems within the National Wrestling alliance and his business was starting to fail. He was starting not to have crowds at his. He had done a great job of building that territory up to 18 towns and 18 towns in a territory is a very large geographical territory. And you talk to any wrestler who's ever traveled the west Texas circuit and they will tell you oh my Lord, you know, miles upon you meet yourself on the highway sometimes going and coming. It's so big to go from Albuquerque to El Paso to Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo to Hereford to Abilene to San Angelo. I mean sometimes up to to Colorado Springs and Colorado and then over to Idaho into some towns and down to New Mexico to Clovis and he built it into 18 towns but, but he wasn't drawing there in 55 and he. He was having some financial issues. Now, there are some speculations. I go into all this in the book, but there's some speculation within the National Wrestling alliance that Cal Eaton actually gave Doc Sarpolos $75,000, which is what he paid for the Amarillo booking office. And he had a partner named W.T. bartlett. W.T. bartlett was a judge in Waco, Texas, who was also the wrestling promoter for Waco. And he had a partner. Now, get this, a judge and an attorney in the same town are wrestling partner promoter partners together. So you got an attorney coming in, arguing cases, and the judge who's hearing the case is his partner in business. So think different era. But. So Sarpolos and Bartlett, they bought the territory, they bought the booking office. And as was often done in those days, so Funk Senior was on his way out of West Texas to go find greener pastures because he was kind of tired of the deton thing. He could see the territory wasn't drawing. He was somewhat frustrated because he wasn't being listened to about things that they should do to get the territory back on its feet or whatever. Denton was a very headstrong, emotional kind of guy, and he, you know, believed that he knew best. And, you know, that is what got him into some of his relation problems with Sam Minaker in El Paso and with Mike London in Albuquerque and some other things. There were always grievance committee hearings about Dorie Denton and, you know, encroaching on people's territories and such. I talk about it on the book. But anyway, as was often done in those days, Roy Welch and Nick Gulas, for example, when they went into Chattanooga, Tennessee, they made Harry Thornton, who was the media personality in town on television and on radio. They wanted him to host their live wrestling show in Chattanooga, and they made him a partner in the town. You know, so why wouldn't you. You want a guy who has a vested interest to make sure your stuff gets promoted and your stuff gets talked about and tickets get sold because they're going to directly benefit from it. That was sort of the idea back in those days when you take your top star and you would sell them points in the office. You'd either make them work it out of their. Their pay to pay for the points, or you sometimes just give them the points, you know. Sarpolis sold Dorie Funk Senior some points in the West Texas booking office. And as time went on, Dory accumulated more and more points. So that by the time Doc Sarpolos passes away in 1967, Funk Senior almost has 50% of the points in the office. And then Dorie Junior and Terry bought the other 50% of the booking office from Doc Sarpolos widow. So that was kind of the thought about that was Dorie Funk Sr. Was the top star. He was the top baby face. He had some amazing matches in the early, late 40s, early 50s with some of the biggest heels, the biggest, Frankie Hill Murdoch, which was Dick Murdoch's father and had a great program with him and had a great program with Dirty Dick Reigns and other big time heels. So he was really over as the top baby face in that west Texas area. So Sarpolos wanted him to stay there and continue to be a star. And he'd give him time off and tell him to go to, to North Bay, Alaska and take the family and go on vacation, go fishing, go hunt and come back in three months. You know, we need you to take a break, get you out of the territory. We need to get some other people over or you need a break or whatever. And so that's kind of how that all worked was back in those days, very often Jerry Jarrett, you know, broke away from Nick Gulas and he gave Jerry Lawler points in the office. I mean that's, that's kind of what you did. You wanted to secure your top star and make sure that they're around and send them out every now and then to other places. But they always come back home and draw money for you. Okay, History of Wrestling in San Antonio. Richard Becerra. Is that how you say your name? Richard? I hope so. Richard Becerra or Bechera. I'll try to do my best here. So you go back to. And this is a little bit fresh for me because I've just started writing the Beginnings of the Funk Senior book. And in the beginning of the book I talk a little bit about how people were migrating across the country. They were working in, they were working on cattle ranches. So they were cowboys and cattle people, ranchers. They were working on the railroads. So they were railroad workers. And after oil was discovered in Texas, you had all these people that were migrating to work in the oil fields and be roughnecks. And those were the pretty much the primary professions. And when things would get boring on the ranch, out on the railroad, you know, get tired of hammering railroad ties all day, let's entertain ourselves and let's have a fight. Let's see who the toughest person in the oil camp is, you know, this week or whatever. And also guys who were shooters were coming through, you know, Texas the first wrestling match in Amarillo ended up with a guy losing his life because one of the shooters was famous for his full nelson and some of those kinds of holes, and the guy's spine got severed and he died. Not to give away all the great things in my book coming up, but I mean, this is the kind of matches that were going on in Texas. This very rough, snug, tough, hard way type wrestling. And so in San Antonio, man, that goes all the way back into the 1800s like we were talking about before. Talking about in the early 1900s, there were traveling carnivals, county fairs under torchlights, you know, wrestling in tents and things of that nature, you know. And then they began to have makeshift rings and you'd hear mariachi bands playing, you'd smell barbecue cooking. And, you know, what was going to happen was we were going to take our money, we're going to lay down some money because we're going to bet on a couple of, of guys, one guy or the other guy, and then the sport starts kind of getting a foothold, right? They began to partner with boxing promoters. That's kind of Morris and Julia Siegel kind of did. In the Gulf Athletic Club office in Houston. They, they partnered a lot with boxing promoters and put on boxing matches. And they expanded their operations from Houston into San Antonio and some other Texas towns because they could provide talent. Now the, the town promoters in the 30s and the 40s, Ed Brown and Mary Living Good were the promoters in San Antonio and they started booking weekly cards, I think sometime There in the 30s and 40s is when the Municipal auditorium was built. And so they were able to put weekly cards in there and they were able to capitalize on San Antonio growing in its population. And also it was so close to the Mexican border. You know, they had so many Spanish speaking fans. And so, you know, they, they mixed in lucha libre influences back in those days with American and Mexican wrestlers and brought in some luchadors for high spots that were high spots back in those days. Gorgeous George became a star, as Greg Klein has covered on his podcast, the Greg Klein's Old School Wrestling Talk. A lot of Texas history over there, if you want to, and he will, especially if he's not satisfied with my answers here, he'll go into it on his show. But by the 50s, you know, that's when television came in, in the mid to late 50s, and television started airing matches from Houston and Texas wrestling from Dallas. And so wrestling stars became local heroes because Texas had its own kind of brand of wrestling that was being broadcast on the networks nationwide. And so, as I've talked about, when you get into the 50s and 60s, the territories and the geographical lines are forming. You know, San Antonio was one of the first towns. As Morris Segal started his band in his office, San Antonio was one of the first towns that he integrated. And again, not promoting there, but having local promoters. So in the territory era, from 66 to 78, San Antonio was under the booking office in Dallas. Fritz Von Erich took over for Ed McLemore in the Texas Dallas, Texas booking office. And they took the San Antonio town and put it under their booking office away from Siegel's Houston office. And Houston was not booking talent anymore. So when Morris Siegel passed away and Paul Bloch took over, they were not booking talent out of Houston to other towns and town promoters anymore. That all went to town Dallas, where Fritz Von Erich was the owner. And so San Antonio became the Wednesday night town. And somewhere in there, I'm not sure what year it was, that Joe Blanchard was a partner with Ed Brown and Mary Living Good. And they. They were the San Antonio promoters. Now, remember, town promoters were not NWA members. Town promoters were not. Paul Bosh was not an NWA member when he was the Houston promoter. He was the Houston promoter. Fritz Von Erich, who actually became president of the National Wrestling alliance, was because his office was an NWA member because he had the booking office. And West Texas, the Amarillo office, was an NWA member because they booked talent around all the 18 towns around West Texas. So you have these town promoters that people know and they love, and they sometimes think that they were NWA members when they kind of were affiliates because their talent was coming from an NWA office. But they themselves were not voting members of the National Wrestling Alliance. So I'm not sure exactly when it happened. I think 78, when Joe Blanchard bought out Mary, Ed and Mary, and he broke away from the Dallas booking office and launched Southwest Championship Wrestling. And then he began to think he was going to be a booking office. And he was for a while. And Paul did switch. The Houston territory or Houston town did get their talent from Joe Blanchard for a while there in 78. But Paul and Tully Blanchard, Joe's son, could not get along at all. Paul said Tully was the world's greatest heel and not just in television or in the ring. So they couldn't get along. And he broke away from them, partnered up with Bill Watts office in Tulsa and got his office from, or got his wrestlers from Bill Watts office there for a while, until Bill Watts sold his company to Crockett and they forgot to tell Paul and that kind of hit the fan. So that's a little bit of as best as I can do just a cursory bit on it without doing a whole lot more research, but trying to get to your question as quick as possible here on the show. And I, I could do better with my answer, but it would take me a little bit to dive in a little bit more into the, the deep dive into San Antonio. And it's really not on my list of priorities right now. However, if somebody asks, I will definitely do it, but I've got so many other projects that are a little bit more important than I am knee deep in. But that's, that's kind of the best that I can do on San Antonio. So thank you so much everybody for all of the questions this week in our first Q and A section. I hope I did a good job for you. And remember, if you want to send in a question, you can post it on my x at Tony Richards 4, where I have a thread going of questions. You can post it in our Facebook Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel group or you can post it in substack at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel substack page. Thanks everybody for listening and watching again this week. Again, I hope you like the interview and guest with Lib Ayub and his book on the awa. Next week here we're going to Indianapolis, Indiana. So on episode 29 of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast, I am going to have Dave Dynasty here and we're going through the year of 1975 in the world Wrestling association owned by Dick the Bruiser and Wilbur Snyder. And man, it it's going to be a great show. I mean, Dave is a great guest. I think you're going to really enjoy our conversation. And that's all coming up here next week on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. I want to thank you once again for everything that you do for me as far as watching and viewing, sending in questions, posting the show, sharing it, telling other people about it. It's fantastic. And listen, I'll see you back here again next week on the Next Episode. I'm Tony Richards reminding you if you'll be a better neighbor, you'll have better neighbors. So long from the Bluegrass State, thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. [01:43:31] Speaker B: Don't you dare miss it.