Episode 25: Florida 1975 with guest Howard Baum

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today. Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker A: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Hello again, everybody. Welcome to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. I'm your host, Tony Richards, and right off the bat, I want to thank everybody for the great feedback we've received on Our Herb Simmons St. Louis show and also our show from last week, Brian R. Solomon, talking about the Gorilla Monsoon book, that's brand new. I really appreciate all of you reaching out to tell me how much you enjoyed those shows and how much you love the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast show. So thank you so much. That means so much to me. And as I try to tell everybody, you're the reason that myself and folks like Brian and folks like Herb and folks like these people that you see and hear on the podcast, it's the re. You are the reason we do what we do. Because we're writing books, we're doing podcasts, we're writing articles, we're saving photos. We're trying to preserve this time period in pro wrestling history. And thank you so much for supporting us in that and letting us know how much it means to you and how much you really enjoy it. Our Facebook group is growing, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. We just celebrated our one year anniversary of that Facebook group in September and we're averaging 25 to 50 new members a week in the group. And that's pretty good growth for just a year. And I'm not so much concerned with the amount of people we have. I think we're just about to cross 2,000 folks in there. I'm a little bit more concerned that we have quality people who are really interested in the history of the territory era, and not only the era that you grew up in, which we get a lot of people who are extremely excited about that because that's where their childhood memories were, that's where their interest in pro wrestling started. And that will always be a great sentimental favorite area for them, but also the people who are interested in the guys and ladies that came before them. And we get a lot of comments about, oh, I didn't know that or that's so interesting, or please do more on that. So thank you so much for the enthusiastic. I call them pro wrestling history enthusiasts and I really appreciate you being in the Facebook group. This entire show is brought to you by the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, which is me and all the great associates that I have, which are guests on the show. People that are helping me track and document the history of the territory era in the sport and art of professional wrestling. Best we can figure, the territory started in the 1920s. You had Morris Siegel and his brother in Houston booking talent out to various towns, a lot of town promoters around the Gulf coast area. You had the Gold Dust Trio, who were traveling the country, but also Billy Sandow, who was one of the Goldust Trio. He and his brother were setting up shop in an office in Wichita, Kansas, and booking other talent. You had Tom Pax in St. Louis, who became a czar of the business and kind of the leader of the first trust of these booking offices that were controlling the talent in that era. His relationships with the various athletic commissions and others made him such a power player, I think. Al Haft set up shop in the late twenties in Columbus, Ohio. And you had Lou Darrow out in Los Angeles. So these regions of geography were beginning to form in the 1920s. And then what really amplified it and strengthened those demarcations that we now think of as the territories was the formation of the NWA in 1948. And then what put rocket fuel on that was television syndication in the mid-50s, when they started sending out television tapes to television stations and really reinforcing those territory lines and drawing hard lines for the booking offices that were booking the talent and the town promoters that were promoting in those towns that we now think of as the territories. So we're covering the history of all that. And today we're going back to one of the most notable and famous territories of all, the Florida Territory. In 1975. My new analyst and commentator for the territory is now here, the wonderful Howard Baum. And Howard's first wrestling involvement was in the year of 1975. So it's a particular emotional and favorite time period for him. Going from 75 to 76, he was a regular attendee at the convention center in Miami Beach. And the Florida territory was a territory that was based in solid logic for their angles and storylines. It was very sports based, very athletic. The owner of the office in Tampa was Eddie Graham. And so much has been written and said about Eddie over the years. And I feel like, you know, I have an entirely new view of Eddie by going back to his roots in Tennessee. I think he was from Chattanooga, and he worked in Florida early in his career. Met Cowboy Luttrell, he went to Texas. And so much of everything that Eddie did was taught to him by Amarillo's Doc Sarpolos. And a lot of you know that in researching the Dorie Funk Sr. Book that I talk a lot about Sarpolos because Eddie's complicated finishes that he did all came because of Sarpolos influence, because Doc Sarpolos had been booking in Texas for almost 20 years by the time Eddie met him in the 1950s in Amarillo. And Doc had been the booker for both Morris Siegel in Houston and Ed McLemore in Dallas. And he's got so many innovations and inventions in the wrestling business, we don't have time to list them all here. But he taught Eddie Graham when he was there in the 50s. He taught Harley race in the 1960s. He taught Jody Hamilton when he first went out there in 1959. He taught Leo Garibaldi when Garibaldi was out there in 54 and 55 and 56. And of course, one of his most famous students of all time, Dory Funk Sr. Who was also a partner in the territory with Doc Sarpolos. So Florida has been our most requested territory by our viewers and listeners that we haven't gotten to yet. So today is a great day as I'm joined by Howard Baum. And we kick off our look at the Florida territory today by covering the first three quarters of 1975. So let's go to that wonderful conversation with me and Howard Baum right now. Well, hello again, everybody. This is Tony Richards. Welcome back once again to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And today we're in the Time Tunnel and we're zooming back to 1975 and we're going to to championship wrestling from Florida. Time. And my special guest is one of the authorities on championship wrestling from Florida. He grew up with it. He was there during the hot time and hot period. Mr. Howard Baum, welcome to the show, sir. [00:07:59] Speaker A: A tremendous honor. Words will not even do it justice. Tony Richards, I don't know where you came from, but you came out of nowhere to single handedly reinvigorate my flame for professional wrestling. [00:08:14] Speaker B: That's wonderful, man. I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear it. [00:08:17] Speaker A: All of a sudden you're making these inroads and I'm seeing this guy come up on the computer every week and it's like, 1975, this, 1975, that I, on a personal note, happen to be celebrating my 50th anniversary. September, August 13, 1975. I went to my first live show. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Man, that's great. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Before we get things kicked off professionally here, I know that you're a big bourbon man, Mr. Kentucky yourself. Now, I know this is a beginner, an entryway bourbon, but being a big Jimmy Page fan, this was my drink of choice, you know, the famous picture. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:08:55] Speaker A: So hence, I've always been a jack drinker. But maybe you could turn me on to something special. And so I salute you, Tony, the wrestling world and everything that you're doing. And you're doing God's work. And I cannot wait to get into this episode centering on 1975. [00:09:13] Speaker B: And by the time we do, by the time we do our next show, I will have all my bourbon unboxed, so I'll be able to join you. [00:09:21] Speaker A: It's weird, you know, Like, I just have a taste for Jack. I might not. I don't know if I'm a bourbon guy or not. You'll have to like turn me on to some stuff or something. But I've been drinking jack since I was 18 just because the rock stars did it. And I'm like, well, you know. But I salute you in 1975. [00:09:40] Speaker B: Thank you, man. I salute you back. Welcome to the show. I'm so glad that we're going to do this together. And I was mentioning to you today that next year, when we go through 1976, it's going to get hot. And I'm so glad you're along with me on this journey through championship wrestling from Florida. [00:10:00] Speaker A: You know, as, as I've always had a saying that the decades, it's. It's not like 1970 to 1980. The 70s, in a way, are kind of 1967 through 1973. Right. Because you look at the early 70s, the music scene, it's still 1969 influenced in a way, or 70 at the very least, which defeats my point because 70 is an aura. But anyway, in wrestling, 74, 75 was still kind of that ectochrome Kodachrome look to it, where everything had a tinge to it. And then from 75 on, things got funky. Thunderbolt Patterson, Dusty Rhodes. And there was just a funk in the air. And alluding to 1976, you might think that Dusty's apex zenith was 1974 when he turned face or 75 when he was red hot, which we're going to discuss today in great detail. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:01] Speaker A: But 76 was like the bicentennial custom made for Dusty Rhodes, because 76 made it look like Dusty just turned baby face. The American Dream 200 year anniversary bicentennial. Everything's red, white and blue. Here comes Dusty in the hat. And the ruby begonia fur hat and contest and everything. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:22] Speaker A: And so that's when I think Florida, Florida in general was super, super aware of dusty. 76 was the greatest thing that ever happened. But let's talk about. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Let's talk. [00:11:34] Speaker A: I know you're. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Let's talk about you. Let's talk about how your thirst and hunger for wrestling got started. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Okay. Well, in a nutshell, my origin story is that we moved down from New Jersey in 1974. I was eight years old, came down here in Florida, did third grade, never heard of wrestling in fourth grade. 1975, I happen to walked in one day and I see my dad watching this thing and all I see is this big giant blue ring. These guys moving around in a curious way. I'm like, what is this? And he's like, wrestling. The rest was history, folks. I'm like, what is this? It was so bizarre. It was Lucha libre from the Olympic auditorium in California, of all places, broadcast to Miami because of its large Spanish speaking clientele. So we saw. The first wrestling I ever saw was on Canal Venta Tres Venta Trace. Want to get that in there for my Latino friends, Mantos. You know, I'm a regular Manny Fernandez. Everyone knows that. So I'm like, okay, I'm watching it. This is truly bizarre. It's capturing my attention. And I've always been into weird things. I'm like, all right, this is interesting. I'm nine years old. All of a sudden, outbursts. The bloodiest angle of all time, that I had no idea was coming. And I thought this kind of thing happened on TV every week. The magazines refer to it as wrestling's most sickening moment. The night that Louis Tillet tried to pluck an eye out of Sir Oliver Humperdick. And live on tv in live before my naked eyes and steaming color, Louis Toilette takes an object out, sticks it into Oliver Humperdick's eye during a Hollywood Blondes tag match. The juice is proficient and that sealed it right there. Worst day of my mother's life. I was an inveterate fan from that second on and nobody was going to tear me away from that. So that happened either April 11th or 18th of 1975 in a match with the Hollywood Blondes, Dennis Stamp and Louis to thank you. Thank you. Who was the booker? And I left that out. Good. Stick with me. I'm gonna need it. Okay. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Did you get. Did you ever get a chance to tell Humperdink that. That was the first thing you saw. [00:14:02] Speaker A: The beautiful thing is Humperdink has been a thread from that first angle all throughout my wrestling career. He was on that show. He was on the first live show I ever saw in August of that year that we're going to get to. And then all the way throughout life, I worked with him as a photographer, manager, announcer, friend at conventions and everything. So I have a long, long tie with Sir Oliver Humperdick. He's one of those people that was like a thread going through my whole thing and vice versa, you know. Great guy, by the way. You know, one of the. One of the holy trinity of Florida managers and bad guy names and all that, but obviously legend and a truly great guy. And he loved his blues, Chicago Blues. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Only kind of crazy that they did that angle on the second biggest market in the country in 1975, and then Dusty does it in 1988 on TBS and gets fired. [00:14:59] Speaker A: You know, you know, you're right. You're right. And, you know, Humperdinck also did a version of that when Mr. Florida, Paul Jones, got blinded with Humperdinck's cigar. And he also had. He was working the IPAC eye patch thing for a while in 1980. But, I mean, nobody did it like that till that one. And no, okay, I saw that, and it was great. And it was in my mind. And I might have seen a few shows here and there, but I had a life to live. And I'm over my friend Pete Adlerberg's house, not to be confused with Pete Letterberg, and wrestling is on. And I know that I'm not a dyed in the wool fan yet because it's noon on a Saturday, and I'm not planted in front of the TV yet. I'm out actively being in society with my friends. And so he says to his buddy and me, hey, why don't we go to wrestling? I'm like, oh, my God, you can go to this. Because now we're watching Florida and I see the commercial and it's like. And it will be Dusty Rhodes taking on the challenge of. I'm like. So I told my dad, and they're like, listen, you're not going with some guy down the street in a Camaro. We'll go to wrestling. My dad was an old wrestling fan. I'm like, fine, good, we'll go. And so we didn't pick a special night or a match that I came to be famous for later in my career as a fan. We went because it was wrestling. And we didn't pick out a card, no, nothing. That was the card that week we went. That card happened to be. The main event was Rocky Johnson and Jack Briscoe in a one hour Broadway. Could have possibly been Briscoe's last defense on Miami Beach. It was in August of 75. Not quite sure. [00:16:40] Speaker B: We'll find. We'll find out because we're going to go. We'll find out. We'll go through that. [00:16:49] Speaker A: If the guy I'm talking to right now doesn't know, then, folks, we better call it a day. But so we started going long and now and then that was it. I'm hooked. I. I remember the first body slam. We were a very timely family, very punctual, I must say. But we must have come in during the first or second match because I heard a loud slam. I was not prepared for how loud it was. I'm like, oh my God, what am I in for? And then it was on. Then it was the wrestling ecosystem and the fans and the wrestlers and the refs and announcers, promoters and everything else that goes along with Miami Wrestling in 1975. [00:17:27] Speaker B: Wow, that's fantastic. So did you ever talk to your dad much about the wrestling that he watched or that that was his favorite? Like what, what was he. What, what did he like? [00:17:39] Speaker A: Well, my dad was from Jersey. He grew up in Newark, and he went to the. He always talked about the Laurel Gard. I think that was his main arena that he must have gone to. And he was born in 25. So I would imagine that the people he saw were everywhere from 45 to 65, you know, from 1945 to 65, he was following. And the names he always mentioned to me, he like Bruno San Martino, put over Hans Schmidt to me. Because my dad always talked about Hans Schmidt. And when I interviewed Bruno on a radio show a long time ago, I tried to put over superstar Graham. He goes, no, you know, I really enjoyed working Hans Schmidt, Killer Kowalski, those are the guys that he respected. But, yeah, that's a little tangent, but my dad went to Laurel Gardens, Newark and everything. He used to see Mark Lewin. He used to tell me about Gene Stanley. And I think putting the pieces together, what he did was a combination of what was on the Dumont network at the time, because he was talking about names like Gene Stanley, Buddy Rogers, and also guys that were from the Jersey area. [00:18:41] Speaker B: That's what I was thinking is, you know, he got to see. He got to see when WWWF was still part of the NWA and then when they Broke away. He got to see all that, which would have been very cool. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, he was like a blue collar guy and he was very up on the people of that time. And he smartened me up when I started buying the magazines. Because shortly after I became a fan, after my live TV and event experience, I'm like, then I saw a magazine. So I start reading it. I'm like, the Violent Brothers. He's like, no, that's the Valiant Brothers. So I got my big education through the magazines starting at like 9 years old. And then he would add to it, like, you know, I remember when Bruno slammed Haystacks and just different things and like, not too much detail, but the guys that were around at that time, it didn't really go into detail, but that's, you know, I have an idea of who he watched. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Sure. [00:19:36] Speaker A: And it got to come full circle because in 79, Buddy Rogers was actually down here and I was 13. And I'm thinking, wow, my dad saw Buddy Rogers as a kid. I'm seeing Buddy Rogers, a kid with my dad. This is like crazy. He's one of the few. Buddy Rogers is one of the few that we both saw together, I believe. But yeah, you know, 75 in general, if I may say, I've been watching a little iwa on the YouTube. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker A: And I, I was never tremendously into that, but now that I'm so into this vibe of 1975, I am loving it because it's the complete opposite of all this corporate stuff that I know you and I are completely at odds with when it comes to wrestling. Right, folks? What Tony. When I spoke to Tony, our first conversation, he said, let me tell you a little about myself. I hate modern wrestling. I don't watch modern wrestling. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Etc. Same, same, same. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I just love the Kraper. [00:20:45] Speaker A: I, I, My contention is, as you, you've heard me say on another show, and I'm not going to go into this, is that wrestling, professional wrestling literally died. And if you think that sports entertainment is an evolution of professional wrestling, you're fooling yourself. You're gaslighting yourself. And on an episode to come sometime, someplace, I'm going to give the actual date that wrestling died because it died in different places. Because it died in different places. A lot of people say 89, but Memphis had it going. And I guess it's the last place to ever have cable or the Internet, probably. You know, wrestling could still be going. They still think Brute Bernard is on top. I don't know. But let me digress back into the IWA for just a sec. Because this promotion, if you look at any promotion during this time, had that funky, funky, funky look to it. Even the AWA managed to be funky during these days. And the IWA had this junky looking ring, an excited looking fan base. I don't recall seeing any entrance music, any pyro, anything lit up on the apron, if there was an apron. The announcers looked like they were just pulled out of a tuxedo ad for God knows, from Genghis Square Formals or something. Nobody knew what they were doing and that's what made it great. [00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it reminds me of if you would have been around here where I was growing up in the late 70s, the PAFO's ICW. It reminds me of that same kind of vibe. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:22:21] Speaker B: That same kind of vibe where it's just kind of like, hey, we're just doing this every week. You know, we're just putting it together week by week and you know, we're, we're just, just rolling with it, you know. [00:22:35] Speaker A: I had a really good friend at one time and he stopped watching. And I have another friend, David Delahuse, a tremendous artist based out of Memphis. And he says, I hate corporate wrestling. But before it even became corporate wrestling, I had another friend called Raboo. And once it got, once it became the big two to VCW, I mean, even in the late 80s is what I'm saying. NWA and everything before it became the big two, Nitro, WWE. He's like, I'm out. Because what I liked about it was that it was underground, you know, and that's what I liked about it. And the further it got away from that, there was nothing there for me because wrestling methodically took everything I liked about it away. The believability, the individual is thick. Characters that were not just characters, but the people went away, right? And what they replaced it with was not a reasonable facsimile, it was not a substitute, it was a whether there it was a cosplay of epic proportions that the whole world bought into because they weren't ready to say goodbye to professional wrestling. So they pretended nothing was happening and that you got the Miz right. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Well, I think there are examples of what happened to professional wrestling when it converted into sports entertainment all around us with various. I mean, just look at Pizza Hut, for example. Like you, you love your local pizza joint, right? It's tailored to you. When you go in there, they, they know who you are and they have pizzas and things that are only made for that particular town or that particular college town or university. But you go into Pizza Hut in Miami and you go into Pizza Hut in Salt Lake City and you go into Pizza Hut in Los Angeles, they're all the same. And that's what happened to professional wrestling. All the localism and all the regionalism that was just for those people all went away to just be a bland, over the top thing that anybody can get into, but not everybody's going to get into because it's not for them, it's just for everybody. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it, it. [00:24:49] Speaker B: And so there's nothing really to sink yourself into because it's, it's the same. Right. And that, that's why independence can do fairly. Okay. If they're run right is because they're a throwback to what we used to have. [00:25:09] Speaker A: This will draw me a lot of ire, but the independence was never professional wrestling to me, if I might make a confession. But I think that might be a conversation for another day because I'm so busting with. I mean I know it is to a lot of people. There wouldn't be a CAC without people preparing pending during the professional wrestling business. But I am in a highly sports orientated Florida Championship wrestling state of mind. I'd rather keep it to that because we could talk about like all kinds of other stuff all day. I'm happy to talk to you all day, but I've been shopping at the bit to talk Florida with you. And everything you're saying is such a big point with me, but I will say okay, so okay, yes, let's talk about the small town experience that it used to be to go to the Miami Beach Convention center, let's say, or when you went to your main event, your main arena was in Evan. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Evansville, Evansville, Indiana and Paducah, Kentucky. [00:26:09] Speaker A: And what's the name of the arena in Evansville? [00:26:12] Speaker B: What's that now? [00:26:13] Speaker A: What is the name of the building in Evansville? [00:26:15] Speaker B: It's the Soldiers Memorial Coliseum. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Okay, okay. So you know what a personalized and quaint and detailed experience that was. And Brian last from the 605, called it the wrestling ecosystem. And you walk in and it's going to be the same hot dog vendor, the same old people in the front row from every week. And I already know, I already know because I know. But I also know from you nodding that it was the same in your town and it was the same in my town. And people literally had to die to get in the first row of the Miami Beach Convention Center. That place went on from 1961 to 1984. And I'll be darned if 30% of the crowd wasn't the same for the last 10 years, but for the first 20 years was probably 70% the same crowd. When they taped at the Miami Beach Auditorium, which became the home of the Jackie Gleason show. [00:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah. When we would go to the National Guard Armory in Paducah to see the ICW show, we'd be on the fourth row at ringside and there'd be three rows of the same people in front of us. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and by the way, so, you know, everyone's chummy with everyone. And think about J.J. dillon maintained his heat week in and week out. I was a ringside photographer for the entire year of 1983 at the Miami Beach Convention Center. Right, right there inside the guardrail with everybody. And J.J. dillon used to, like, pass notes to me. Not cast notes, but like, say, hey, tell Bruce to shave five minutes. And I would go over to Bruce Owens the ring, and I'm like, oh, my God, this can't be happening. I felt like, you know, Ray Liotta in Goodfell is like, oh, my God, I'm here two weeks and JJ Dylan. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Is whispering like, I'm in, man, I'm in. [00:27:59] Speaker A: Oh, my God, I couldn't believe it. So JJ Dillon managed to maintain his heat as the number one heel manager, but he would have playful banter with all the ringsiders every week. I'm like, how can that be? He's insulting this lady. She's loving it. She's insulting him. He's loving it. And the rest of the building wants to kill him simultaneously. He's like, hey, I see you last week. That's all. And he's like. And it wasn't the same shtick every week. And it wasn't the same. It was generally the same fans every week. But he changed his everything every week in every town. [00:28:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:37] Speaker A: And it was much more of a personal relationship that each wrestler had. You could hear individual taunts from individual, individual fans to individual wrestlers that were ongoing threads from week to week. Like Sal, the guy that got us our front row seats, cigar smoking wannabe mobster is like, hey, Reggie, get a job. And Reggie Parks the referee, not even having to look around, know, is it Sal? We'll look at the referee, Fred Garage and go, this guy, you know, it was its own thing. Well, fast forward. What the hell happened? The circus rolls into town, same show every week. It used to be that from a photography Standpoint, which is a microcosm of the wrestling world. And please stop me if I talk for over two and a half hours straight. [00:29:24] Speaker B: You're good. [00:29:27] Speaker A: Every town had its own photographer. Miami, West Palm, Orlando, maybe some more. And each state and each territory had its own system of photographers like that. And after about 1988, 87, it became one photographer per state. And usually half the time it would be Bill Apter or George Napolitano himself flying down. Because if you caught one WWF show somewhere, you caught all the action for the month. That's it. So now all the photographers who are not either with WWF or WCW magazine, their little territory meant nothing now. Because first of all, your territory is dead. And second of all, you can't shoot NWA because B just shot NWA for that month. Right, by shooting one show. Right, right. So why and how, Besides it being 50 years, did you pick 1975 to explore? [00:30:31] Speaker B: It just so happened that when I decided to go into this in a more focused and devote more energy and allocate more time to it, that it occurred to me it was 50 years ago, but also as I began to study wrestling history several years ago. Wrestling always changes on the fives. So 1945, World War II and television. 1955, the government investigation into the NWA's monopoly practices changed it. 1965, we had to change. 1975, Sam Mushnick retires as the president of NWA, and that changes things. 1985 was a big one. That's when, you know, Crockett bought out TBS from the wwf. And then we had two companies that had, you know, a chance at going national. So on the fives, it seems like it always has a rebirth or a change. And so I just. I just decided that the 90s had been talked about to death, and the 80s have been really talked about to death, and nobody was really talking about the 70s. So I thought, I'm going to talk about the 70s. [00:31:52] Speaker A: And I am one guy that's overjoyed that you did. Because, Tony, I was done. I enjoy keeping my toe in the business, but. And I'm like, you know, I read all the books during the big frenzy of books that came out in 98, you know, oh, wrestling's hot. And I read the pertinent books. And I'm like, okay, it's over for me now. All my people are dead. I've already, you know, how much of this is left. And you came around, man, and totally reinvigorated me not to put down who I also put in the same category, which is My friends, Brian Solomon, all my author friends, the great Bob Smith. But you, man, have lit a fire under me. And it was one of those things kind of like you. I was just so ready to talk about 1975, and then I saw you talking about 1975. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:52] Speaker A: And I'm like, geez Louise. And it was kind of kismet because I didn't even ask or anything. It just kind of came together. But I was enthralled with your coverage in 1975 because, okay, wrestling is a big, long train that started in this country in the early 1900s, and it went all over this country, and people jumped on it at a different time and place. And wherever they jumped on this big, big train, that's their favorite kind of wrestling to them. I believe you and me jumped on at the same time in a slightly different place. And I think our roots are so aligned, and I want to make just a little statement here that I. I know your origin story, and I know that you traveled it to Memphis to see the Ultra classics, the Funk and Lawler. No DQ match and stuff like that and all that. And I would like to say. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Just. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Apropos of nothing, that my two favorite promotions for different, vastly different reasons are Florida 70s and Memphis 80s. And that's not to discount Memphis 79. I mean, Memphis 70s, but give me Florida 79, give me Memphis 80s and I'll. You could put either of those on. And that's my wrestling. That's my wrestling. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Yeah, you bet. Yeah, it. It was. I'm very fortunate to have grown up there and. Or here now. And I, you know, it was. I fell in love with the magazines because I'm looking at the magazines and there are all these people I can't see. You know, I. Because they're not on my local television. Right. And I like, well, you should have just been happy seeing Jackie Fargo and Jerry Lawler and Phil Hickerson and Dennis Condrey and all those guys. But Terry Funk was the world champion, but I wasn't. I wasn't able to go see him, you know, and so when I was able to go see him, by the time I got my driver's license and I had some wheels, I'm like, I'm going to see him every time I can. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:35:02] Speaker B: So, yeah, and we were all so fortunate that we didn't really realize that being able to go to wrestling every single week or maybe even twice a week was such a wonderful thing, but we were able to do that. And. And I don't think that's something that the people today won't be able to ever experience. [00:35:26] Speaker A: And you know, I, I look at these cards and I'm like, how did I ever, how did I ever turn my nose up at this? Like, oh, it's only, you know, the greats of the entire business. But as a kid, who knew it would ever end, right? You know, it's a whole different world when you're a kid, but when you get old enough, you, you realize you want to go every week because now you can drive and why not? [00:35:49] Speaker B: So, yeah, well, going into the history of the territory just a little bit, I just did a, a feature on my sub stack where I went back to 1945 and I documented a card from 1945 and a card from 1955 and 65 and 75 and 85 in Florida. And you could see the progression from Cowboy Luttrell to Eddie Graham when Eddie Graham got involved in the 60s. And then, you know, Eddie saw Jack Briscoe and he made Jack his number one baby face in, in the late 60s and 69, I think, and campaigned for him to get the world title. And so it's interesting, Eddie spent so much time in Amarillo, which is where I really got to know a lot more about Eddie Graham when I was researching my Dorie Funk book. Because, you know, he, he was in his formative time there, but he still, he still worked in Florida in 1955 for Cowboy Luttrell and they developed a relationship. And championship wrestling from Florida in the 60s was a whole lot like Amarillo wrestling. A whole lot. And then as the Jack era came in, 69 to 75 or so, it really got into more technical wrestling. They, they put a lot more of the sport into it. That's when it really became more sports based and sports oriented. And then when Jack got the title and he's in and out of the territory, that's when Dusty turned in 74. And then that third period where Dusty's gonna be the number one babyface, that's when you kind of come in to the picture into that transition. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Right, right, right. And it, it, ah, it was a beautiful thing because, oh, it just changed so much. What you're talking right now is the segue into 1976. And I got to see the tail end of the old ways and the old ways that it was done. And I was looking at the, just to give you an idea of some of the names at the beginning of 1975. And then I'm gonna contrasted not, not the names because the Main events did not shift dramatically from 74. 75. It was Gary Hart's army against Dusty Rhodes. Yeah, all your main events were Mongolian Stomper, Bob Roop did a lot of title matches, Harley Race, Jack Briscoe. Dusty was in and out well in, in 74. [00:38:30] Speaker B: In 74, Watts was the booker and Bill Watts was in there under Eddie's direction doing, doing the booking and making the matches. And he was also the Florida champion. And then in early 75 he left to go back to Oklahoma. And the guy who had been brought into Georgia to be Watts replacement in Georgia was Harley Race. And Harley Race came in to be the Booker in 75. I just wanted to interject that. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So I, I, I want to make note here that as a kid I was not a sports fan in the least. And I came down here and it was like the Dolphins were like, you know, having the year that nobody has ever lived down since. Oh, the perfect season and all that. 74, not a sports guy. I think you are right a little bit. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Okay. I'm really not. And I'm like, you know, I was inundated with it. I came down from New Jersey, didn't really care about Florida, the Dolphins or it was too hot for me. Everything. Best two things about Florida were the Latin girls and the wrestling. And I didn't get to the Latin girls for another 10 years, so. [00:39:35] Speaker B: Well, those could, those could be my top two also. [00:39:38] Speaker A: At least the wrestling was a tremendous upgrade from wwf. Lord only knows the shows I'd be going to at the Elizabeth High School in Union, New Jersey. Right. With, you know, one name. And okay, so I, I want to make the point that I was not a sports guy, but Gordon solely was my Jim McKay because wrestling had everything I needed, sports wise. I always said that wrestling was sports with the boring stuff cut out because they got right to the angles. If you see two guys talking at the desk, I would think to myself, oh, I hope these guys go at it. Sure enough, you know, most notably Ruke and Kern in 76, which we will get into in due time. But that was the kind of thing, it's like Florida was just bubbling with so much excitement. And whenever you saw two guys who had heat at the table with each other, you knew they were going to do it. And for a minute you thought, oh, they had a fight last week, they're not going to do it again. And sure enough they did. I'm like, this is great. So. But when it comes to the live videos that they taped, they employed These NFL kind of film tactics, you know, slowed it down and like, look at the tremendous striations now is, and you know, they slow it down. And Gordon solely's commentary, using the psychological and physiological descriptions that he did, combined with this NFL style slow mo and everything, I might, I might not have like sports, but I like football put into a wrestling strainer. That's for sure. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Yeah, Gordon. [00:41:07] Speaker A: And that, that is what. And by the way, folks, the sports presentation of, of championship wrestling from Florida. Antonio, I will get into this because this is what has made me a wrestling snob. Because if you have an incompetent announcer, he will not be able to get something over that a Gordon solely would get over unblinkingly, unironically. Gordon solely elevated so much. He elevated everything. He elevated jobbers, he elevated old people, he elevated skinny people and fat people. He called himself a star maker. And he was right because when he described stuff, it was so legitimate. And Tony, you posted a judo jacket match between Hiromatsuda and somebody. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember the post. I can't remember who the other. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Right. And I'm like, okay, judo jacket matches are usually awful, but since Tony posted it and I never saw it before, I'm going to check it out. And you should hear Gordon's commentary on this judo jacket match. He made it sound like the finals at the Olympics. The gravitas and the, the understanding that he put into this horrible little gimmick match, you know, I mean, he put over so much and between the way it was shot and presented. That's why when you don't present wrestling that like that to me. And that's why everything WWEF did after 1984 was such a personal affront to me because that's not my wrestling. I want to see athletic guys and knee pads wrestle, suplexes, et cetera. [00:42:55] Speaker B: I, I, I've always thought that if you took Gordon Soley's Championship Wrestling from Florida television show and put it next to ABC Wide World of Sports, it fit right in. It would just seem like another segment of Wide World Sports. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Yeah, because everyone says, everyone says he's like the Walter Cronkite and they, and the, who else do they compare him to? But he always reminded me of like the Jim McKay of wrestling, you know? Yeah, yeah, totally. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it would, it would fit right in those, those great interview segments that he would do where he'd have a guy on each side of him and it'd be almost like it was Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, but it would be Jack Briscoe and Dusty, or it'd be Jack Briscoe and Harley or, you know, and you'd be just like you were watching Howard Cosell and two boxers, you know. [00:43:44] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, Dusty talking to solely was our Cosell Ali, because it was the same exact thing, you know, like. And there were times in life when Sully was not necessarily thrilled with Gordon, but he plastered on that smile and he sold him. And, you know, from listening to some of Bob Roops great podcasts lately, I don't think anyone liked each other that whole entire office. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Yeah. But by the end, I don't think they did. I mean, I think just very sad. [00:44:15] Speaker A: And let me make this point. From listening to you on all these shows, I'm so jazzed and overjoyed that there is a connection between the wrestling that I know and love and Doc Sarpolis, who started the whole thing in Amarillo in Texas and started the whole Funk vein of wrestling. He's the one who turned Dory Funk Senior into Dory Funk Senior. And Dory Funk Senior is the one who started Amarillo, which is where Florida was birthed. Right. And so by. It's very genetic and its very DNA, when Terry Funk would come to Florida, he's coming to an extension of the thing that he. His family created. So it's like he was so at home, and that was the vein of wrestling that he was comfortable in, and I was comfortable watching. [00:45:08] Speaker B: And I mean, yeah, after Dory. After Dory Senior died, Terry was so distraught over it that the first thing he wanted to do was he wanted to get out of town. He was having relationship problems with Vicki, and the first place he wanted to go was Florida. He wanted to. He came to Florida for most of 74 and worked. Worked a lot. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Oh, wow. And I just missed that. But I have to tell my tale of whoa. Oh, maybe save it for. No, it was 75. So I will tell it. I'll tell it quick, since I already told Tony off the air. But my greatest disgrace as a wrestling fan, December 10, 1975, a date that will live and end for me. Couldn't get tickets. We always could get tickets. On this particular day, the fix was in. Everyone knew we couldn't get a good seat. We didn't go. I told my dad to go down to the convention hall, get tickets, which I didn't always do, but I wanted to see a classic Dory Funk Jack Briscoe title match. That was what we did at the time. That was the classic match. At the time. I was a student of the business. I saw this magazine cover from 1974, Dori Funk and Jack Briscoe, greatest match in 40 years. I'm like, hey, they're working, let's go. My dad's like, couldn't get tickets. I'm like, oh, well. Not a particularly great undercard anyway. And it wasn't. And the next day I look at the paper. Terry Funk wins the NWA title from Jack Briscoe. And I lost my only opportunity to see a world title match change. My all time favorite wrestler, Terry Funk, win the belt in my hometown arena. And I missed it and it will be to my everlasting shame. And so that's my, you know, that's my nightmare wrestling fan story. [00:46:54] Speaker B: But who knew? I mean, it was advertised as, you know, Dory Jr. And Jack match. And they were doing, and they were doing a lot of those in those days. So you figured you'd see it again, you know. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm like, to me it was just a great chance to see Dorie Funk and Jack Briscoe. And it wasn't really a tremendous undercard. I know King Curtis and CycloneGra were on it, you know, so tragic. [00:47:24] Speaker B: So what, what was it like being a fan? How did you perceive Eddie in, in those days as you picked up from 75 going forward? He'd been there for almost 15 years at that point. He was the over, he was the overarching baby face in the 60s. A lot of people knew he was, you know, in ownership now and in a promotion end of it, because he was always getting some kind of civic award on television or something, right? And then he was tagging with his son. I mean, what, he worked 70 matches in 1975, which was a fairly light schedule, you know, for that time period. So he, he worked in Miami and he worked in all these different places in Florida from time to time. What was it like? As a fan, how'd you perceive him? But his finisher was illegal because the pile driver was illegal in Tennessee and Kentucky. And so he would always, you know, catch the referee looking the other way and pile drive guys and all, and people would be going nuts, you know, and he, he, he was quite an athlete. [00:48:36] Speaker A: That guy was so smooth. And I saw, I saw him and Roop and I saw him, I saw Orton and Senior Junior and Senior Junior and Roop Senior and Root for that matter, against the Briscoes and any combination and man and, and Graham and Kern, stuff like that. Forget it. Like, you know, if you're, I'd like to set up a Debate sometime with somebody in the Mid Atlantic or I don't know where, but I would put our wrestling from top to bottom with like, any card anywhere. Like, I mean, you look at our. Especially in the early 70s, our jobbers and first three or four matches were like, the old sleepy guard George McCreary, these guys that are from history books and that. Like, who are these people? Like, either we're on their last legs, George McCreary, people like that. You get into the, like, 1980, the. The jobbers. And I will not call them that. I believe in the term jobbers, but not for these guys. The openers and the opening talent that we had in Miami in 1980 were all former world champions. Reggie Parks, Jeff Ports, Gordon Nelson. And from there, they were tutoring the upcoming stars, Barry Windham, Scott McGee, Manny Fernandez, etc. And that what was Florida was all about. You had the absolute best from top to bottom. And I will put us up against any other territory as far as our openers are concerned, you know. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Gordon Nelson was another guy that Funk senior really loved, and he went back and forth between Amarillo and Florida and was a great worker. Just. [00:50:34] Speaker A: I saw him. I see him a lot in the Amarillo. Amarillo Cards. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:39] Speaker A: And I'm very heartened. Like, when I was a young fan, I started to see the old clippings that Jeff Ports, Reggie Parks and Gordon Nelson actually had careers that were great because here they were older and they were just being used to teach the new guys and hanging on. [00:50:56] Speaker B: I know that Mid Atlantic is known for. On their Thanksgiving cards, they're known for the Starcades. But in the 70s, they. They still had a Thanksgiving show. It was their biggest show of the year. And from 1970 to 1976, there was a Funk or a Briscoe in every main event of the Thanksgiving show in Mid Atlantic. So you had the Texas and Florida influence going into mid Atlantic and on. On top, because Junior was a champion and then Briscoe was the champion. But then, you know, Jerry Briscoe was against funk on a Thanksgiving show. And then you had Funk Senior and Funk Jr. Against Jack and Jerry was one Thanksgiving main event that I think broke all the attendance records in Greensboro. [00:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's not a surprise, you. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Know, so, yeah, I have to. [00:51:52] Speaker A: I mean, I just. I don't. This is what turned me into a wrestling snob. And I just kind of feel bad, and I don't want it to even rub it in anyone's face. But if you look at the shows you went to, if you were a mid Atlantic fan, just compare the openers in the 70s versus ours. And I mean, you know, it was just a special territory because there was no room for light. In a working sense. It's like nothing ever gave it away. It's like everything was so tight and, and cool and funky at the same time. It was just right. You did. And let's get back to 1975 for a second. I'm a nine year old kid. Miami Beach Convention Center. It's still the old world, right? And so when you went to get your tickets at the outside ticket bay, it would be this big ticket bay of like 10 things lined up like all the old arenas had. And there'd be like an old lady in there, her name was Millie. You go down there and Tuesday at 10am which is where my dad went down. Half hour trip down to south beach, easy in those days, not a lot of traffic and stuff. And yeah, we usually get second or third row before we got hooked up in the front row. But then when you buy your tickets, they had a placard set up there like an old burlesque thing and it was like this big board and it had the eight by tens of all the wrestlers on it. Harley Race NWA Worlds. I'm like, this is the coolest thing because it showed me that the real world was acknowledging my little thing, you know, like here it is in public. Harley Ray's Abdullah the Butcher. I'm like, this is so cool. You know, on a placard in a respectable public location. [00:53:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So they're, they're actually proud of it, right? I mean, you know, they're proud of this thing that I love. [00:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it was a real thing. It was so legit. Miami beach wrestling Wednesday nights. I don't know what happened, man. It's an ugly scene. We're gonna have to do a special series on the Demise one day and we can give our thoughts on when it died, where it died, etc. But hey, you take the reins man, because you're Mr. History here. [00:54:04] Speaker B: Well, there's one thing I wanted to bring up. Dusty is in and out. For most of 75, he was up in the AWA. He had a tag team with superstar Billy Graham and they had a feud with Buck Winkle and Stevens and a couple other different various people, the Heenans and all the people with Heenan. But he comes back in September and he's going to be back in Florida now. This is going to be his home base. I Mean, he's working in Atlanta, he's working in Crockett territory, he's working in Watts in Oklahoma. But in September he comes back here and there's a tag match I really wish I could have been in West Palm beach for which is Dusty and Cyclone Negro against Harley Race and Larry Hennig and Harley Racing. Larry Henig is one of the best tag teams of the 60s. And now you got Dusty and Cyclone Negro, two of the 70s guys. I bet that. I bet that match tore the house down. [00:55:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:05] Speaker B: You know, and I know you had a relationship with Cyclone later. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, Cyclone at the time, he didn't. He couldn't get to you through his promos or anything. But I mean, as a kid I respected him as a solid worker. He was like this obviously big, tough looking guy when I first started going. He was kind of in the mids by the time and it was him and Omar working Kirby and J.J. dillon for the. Those are my primary memories of him when I went, including my first show. So he wasn't really. He was on top 74, 75 down here. And they just downgraded him to mid card tag right when I came in. So that was my impression of him, that he did resurrect his tough guy image because he was a legit world class tough guy boxer, humongous star down in the Caribbean, which I had no idea of until I read in Ian Douglas's great book on the history of wrestling in the Caribbean. But at the time he was kind of a mid card guy and you know, he just struck me as a tough guy. And what I liked about him was when he would break out his brass knucks gimmick and have those matches because I like blood and I like gimmick matches. [00:56:25] Speaker B: So. [00:56:25] Speaker A: But at the time, other than that, he was primarily working with his brother mid card against the superstars Kirby and Dylan, that kind of thing. [00:56:35] Speaker B: Yeah, Cyclone Negro and Killer Carl Cox in a brass knuckles match. That. That's. [00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. [00:56:43] Speaker B: The other thing I wanted to bring up was Hero Matsuda. He wins his NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship for the second time here in mid part of 75 in June. Hero is a Florida guy. I mean, was with Duke. Kiamuka was a big, huge tag team in the 60s in Florida. And he's one of the trainers, you know, for Florida Championship wrestling. And how did you perceive the world Junior title? As a fan. [00:57:15] Speaker A: I as a kid was not as into the technical wrestling. People are going to hate me for this. But the only thing I could do is tell you when I did get into it. I mean, looking in hindsight, when I see the videos now, 74, 75, Hero, Matsuda against Bob Orton Jr. And all that. Okay, that's obviously great. That's obviously state of the art. And you know, as you know, Danny Hodge, Hero, Hiromatsuda Jr. Title was a big deal at that point. And also when Nelson Royal held it. [00:57:48] Speaker B: Yep. [00:57:48] Speaker A: Well, something happened that I'm sure you're going to be able to tell me, because I don't know, but I kind of know. And the Junior Championship went from Nelson Royal and Hero to Mike Graham and then Les Thornton or vice versa. But I know in my memory, my. My junior champion was Les Thornton because I saw him defend it live the most times. And I was a tremendous fan of his hero. I was a little too young for. And even the Briscoes work I didn't appreciate as a kid because I wasn't really there for them. And I didn't like the baby faces and I thought that scientific stuff was too boring. And I'm sorry. And I'm sorry. But I watch it now. I watch it now and I say, Howard, you legitimately saw this. Now you can appreciate it as a fan for what it was. I was there for the blood in the main events. I was not there for the technical baby faces, but I appreciate them 1000%. Now, I was not into Jack Briscoe then. Now the man is a walking clinic. I love everything he does, and I don't just mean his smoothness, fluidity, technical ability, amateur ability. But when he brawled, it looked great. And his big thing, when he rears back and does that big knee on the guy. And so now Jack Briscoe and Jerry Briscoe. I'm sorry I didn't stomp the bleachers for your hot tags against Rupen Orton. I was not into you guys. Now I see it for what it is. And that was the best ever. [00:59:22] Speaker B: Right? [00:59:22] Speaker A: So I answer your question, guys are gonna have to check Google as far as Junior, but we knew it was a big deal. But, you know, that's my answer. Les Thornton. That's all I saw. Really. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So you were into the heels then? [00:59:39] Speaker A: Oh, I was tremendous. If it wasn't for heels, I wouldn't be because I was. I was a fan of monster movies and Godzilla and everything. And if you think about it, Baby Faces never ever did anything interesting, which is why Dusty was my only baby face I ever liked, because he bled and he was interesting and he was always doing something or something was always being done to him or at least it was exciting. But every other baby face, you know, like I'm a nine year old kid. Jack Briscoe is a little dry to me. Dory Funk is a little dry to me. [01:00:11] Speaker B: So when you were in Miami and you heard about these other matches or did you hear about the other matches in St. Petersburg and Tampa and Orlando, did you know about those being in? [01:00:24] Speaker A: Not when I was young, probably around the time I was 16, like around 1982. And then my friends were a little older and they started driving to Tampa for the big shows and I still wasn't in that loop. I could have and should have, but I didn't. And I. So I didn't go to the Tampa. And in my heart of hearts I have to know that Miami was the number two town. Tampa was obviously the number one town and we were number two. We had seven matches. Fort Hesterly Armory had six or seven. Bayfront had a spectacular. And then we never had a show like that. Once in a blue moon we had Bayfront worthy cards. In my entirety of being a fan. Two of them were at the Hollywood Sportatorium, one of them was at the Miami Beach Convention Center. They were all in 1980 and they were loaded cards where they would bring in stars from other areas. I refer to Hollywood, Star Wars 80, number one and two and I refer to a card that was broadcast in Japan in 1980 from the convention hall which was Dusty and Ernie Ladd Backland and I know Keynon Morocco, Fujinami and Don Diamond, Harley Race and Manny Fernandez. And then it was just a great card from there down. Then it was just a traditional great Florida card. It was like 11 matches. We never got those big loaded shows in Miami, but we were the number two town. [01:01:53] Speaker B: So you know, I think that could be debated because you know Miami is on a Wednesday night and it unless there's a spot show, there's no regular weekly B show on Wednesday night. It's just Miami and Jacksonville on Thursday is just Jacksonville. Unless there's a spot show, there's no regular weekly B show. All the others, Orlando was on Monday night and West Palm was on Monday night. Tampa and Fort Myers was on Tuesday night. Friday night was Fort Lauderdale and Tallahassee. But Wednesday night and Thursday night only had Miami and Jacksonville. And if you look at the cards, I don't know, it could be. I mean the booking office was in Tampa obviously, but you could almost make a case that Miami Was the number one town. [01:02:45] Speaker A: And I thought, you're going to put Jacksonville in front of Miami. [01:02:49] Speaker B: I don't. Not sure about that. [01:02:51] Speaker A: You let me say this meant to look it up financially, but I mean, as a fan, I mean, for the way the cards were booked, because Tampa, believe me, got. I mean. [01:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, they got a lot of title switches. There's no doubt about. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Even if the Japanese came down, they came to Tampa, not Miami. It's like Baba and. I know and whoever. [01:03:14] Speaker B: See, that's a little bit. That's a little bit like Tennessee. Right. [01:03:19] Speaker A: Memphis. And there's no reason for them to go to Tupelo. Right. [01:03:22] Speaker B: Well, Memphis is known as the big, big town, but the ever the office and everything was in Nashville. And Nashville got just great cards on Wednesday nights, too. But everybody still calls it the Memphis territory because that's where the TV show was done. [01:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:03:42] Speaker B: I have to say, but unfortunately, I. I hate to say this, and I wish we had some way we could do something about it, but Nashville has just kind of lost its wrestling identity. But. Yeah, but man, going back to the 40s, I mean, it was the wrestling town. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not as familiar with that, with that whole area and everything. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Well, the Welches didn't buy Memphis until 1957. 1956, I think. 1956. And it really didn't pop until 59 when they put the television on. But they go back to 1940 in Nashville. [01:04:18] Speaker A: That's crazy. [01:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So there's. [01:04:22] Speaker A: There's some reason the same families, you know, over the decades, the Fullers and the Welshes and the Goldens and everything, come from like the dust crop years all the way through, you know, and you think this guy is just buckhouse buck, but like, they've been in the. In the business for 500 years, so. [01:04:42] Speaker B: I kind of feel like that's happened to Miami a little bit. Like, I think people still think of Tampa as this great wrestling town, but yeah, Miami was fantastic. [01:04:52] Speaker A: Oh, it was. No question about it. But I mean, as far as names and cards and where to the public at large, the wrestlers were a bigger deal in Tampa because they live there, they did ads there, you would spot them. And down here it was once a week. And it wasn't as much a part of the culture because when they weren't based here and we're very multiethnic, big melting pot and everything. So it had its place. It has definite place on on Miami Beach. But Miami is a little more diverse. It was still a big tradition here, though. [01:05:26] Speaker B: So did you ever meet Chris Dundee? [01:05:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Classic, classic. If you were going to cast Chris Dundee, of course, the wrestling and boxing promoter, brother of Angelo Dundee, famed trainer of Muhammad Ali. So Miami Beach Convention center was very closely aligned because of Chris Dundee and the Dundees through with fifth Street Gym, which was a few streets over. This is where Muhammad Ali famously trained. He met the Beatles and everything. And you go a few streets down, you're at the Miami Beach Convention Center. Chris Dundee had one of those Paul Bosch style offices. When I gained access to the Miami Beach Convention center as a vendor, I had a gimmick table. When I finally got in there, I would. I would have free reign of the Miami Beach Convention Center. And I go back there and I took a little peep in his office and it was set up. It was small, but it was like that Paul Bosch kind of thing where he had all this stuff all over. He had a little desk. It's like condensed. Paul Bosch had a big office. This looked more like a Starsky and Hutch wrestling promoter. Envisioning of what a boxing promoter's office would look like. Small green painted walls, the oddly placed 8 by 10 and. And boxing flyer. Yeah, that was his office. And I don't know why I didn't take a picture of it at the time, but you know, you don't. We're not thinking like historians back then. Look at all the stuff you would have done. [01:06:57] Speaker B: Oh man. [01:06:58] Speaker A: To bring back till now to talk about. But. So I saw it, but I didn't take a picture of it. But he was one of these classic characters like right out of central casting. If you were going to look for a wrestling promoter, it would be Chris Dundee. He kind of looked like. Who's that TV producer in the 60s. Leonard Schwartz. Leonard. Not Stu Schwartz. Not. I don't even know what. What was his name? Schwartz. [01:07:25] Speaker B: What? Leonard Schwartz. Right in that. [01:07:27] Speaker A: Which maybe he had like kind of wavy, tight brown hair. Look kind of like Robert Loggia. But he was one of those producers and he always remembered me. Reminded me of Chris Dundee or Sheldon. [01:07:39] Speaker B: Leonard. [01:07:40] Speaker A: There you go. Thank you. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Thank you. Sheldon. He used to be an old time gangster movies and then. [01:07:45] Speaker A: Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had that look to him. He had the like brownish, wavy, receding hair and just the same kind of. And he came out and he's a little guy and I dealt with him and before I got in there I begged him and I begged Duke and Duke's sons. Let me in. I'm already published. Let me in. Ringside they blew me off and blew me off. Well, got very lucky because one of the guys who hooked me up with ringside tickets put the word in to Duke and they let me in. And then everybody was cool to me. So I would say hi to Chris Dundee. And then through a long convoluted story, I lost my gimmick table privileges and I was unceremoniously escorted out. Not escorted out, but like, you're not doing this anymore and you're not shooting either. It's a long story for another time. But. But he was a nice man. Not overtly nice, but I mean, a nice. He was just exactly what you would expect. Like, he was walking around, I hope we're gonna do okay. He was like. It was before the show, I had my gimmick table and he was like. I'm like, well, you're bringing Abdullah in. That should help. You know, like, here's me giving duke Kimoka, a 50 year veteran, words of encouragement. He's like, yeah, I hope so. And, you know, I mean, they were. He was just an influential boxing and wrestling promoter. And. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder what happened to all this stuff. [01:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Well, he died before Angelo. And I suppose, you know, he didn't look like he had a lot of stuff. It looked more business related. He didn't have one of those, like, for display offices. He had more like. And I think those guys operated like at a 5th street gym primarily, I would think, because every time you see them, they were really there. [01:09:41] Speaker B: Right. [01:09:41] Speaker A: Not a ton of photos of Chris Dundee. There's like not one photo of his office anywhere in the world. It's crazy. Like there. There isn't even interior photos of the Miami Beach Convention Center. [01:09:51] Speaker B: Right. [01:09:51] Speaker A: Which I could have taken if I had to wear it with all of it. [01:09:54] Speaker B: Who knew, right? I've looked for them before. [01:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Isn't that insane? And now they've redone it so you can never go back. Yeah, now it's modern, so. [01:10:03] Speaker B: So I had a question about Chris Dundee. Now I can't remember what it was, but, yeah, I wonder what happened. I always wonder about that when people have memorabilia and all that, like, their family doesn't care and they just kind of pitch it. [01:10:21] Speaker A: I know, I know. Yeah, I really. My dad actually became close to Angelo because my mom, which is my dad's wife, by happenstance, she was going for cancer treatment at the same time that Angelo Dundee's wife was. So my dad and Angelo got to bond a little, like, way, way later. Like in 97, this would have been so then that was that. And that was that. [01:10:52] Speaker B: You know what kind of amazed me as I was just going in and gathering info for our show today is, you know, he. Eddie kind of turned Dusty and was really going to put. Build the territory around Dusty once Jack won the title. But when I went and just researched Jack being in Florida, he was in Florida quite a bit in 75. I mean, he. Almost every month he had at least, you know, four or five, almost two weeks every month. Which I guess is the nice thing about, you know, getting the world champion out of your territory is, you know, and they probably live there in your territory, so they always want to come back home. You know, I know Jack lived there and also, I mean, he, he wrestled in Florida a lot in 75. [01:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, he, I don't think he had that much time to enjoy himself when he was champion, famously. [01:11:44] Speaker B: No, he was wrestling every week. But, you know, it was kind of wild when I went and looked at the month by month of 75. I mean, he's, he's wrestling six, seven, you know, cards a week in Florida. I mean, six, seven cards a month in Florida and most of 75. [01:12:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And Dusty was in and out. I looked at him too, and he was. There were a few months where he was gone completely, but he was definitely pretty much around at the beginning of the year. And July. August. [01:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, he comes back in September, and I think September is when he's going to be back in Florida for quite a bit. And then Jack's going to take some time off after he loses the title. But in 76, he's going to be back in Florida too. So they're both going to be there. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, what else have you got? I mean, so it was just, to me, it was, it was the era that I remember least of action wise, but the most of environmentally and atmospherically. It's what set the tone for me as a wrestling fan. You know, production, the whole zeitgeist of the wrestling world at that point in time, that's what just solidified it. And then from there I became like I actually knew what I was looking at and remember individual stars and whatnot. Because I've seen people back then that I don't even recall that I saw them. [01:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just gonna hit some of the people that he wrestled in Florida month by month here. Just, just amazing when you go through here. So in January, Mongolian Stomper Dory Funk Jr. Bob Roop Dorie Frank Jr. Two more times. Mongolian Stomper Dory Funk Jr. February, Bob Roop, Dick Murdoch, Mongolian stomper Buddy Colt before the February plane crash. Mongolian Stomper Bob Roop April, Mongolian Stomper Bob Roop, Terry Funk in a Texas death match in St. Petersburg. Bob Roop and Mongolian Stomper, Jack Briscoe and Dick Slater in a tag match Harley race. So this was kind of interesting to me because I'm pretty sure that Jack started voicing that he was ready to get out of the title somewhere around in this time in April, because he said in his book that, and I've talked to Jerry about this, that he kept saying it and they just kept ignoring him, you know, just kept saying, you know, just he'll keep it, you know, he'll keep going. He's just, you know, having a, you know, a moment of being tired of the road or whatever. But it's starting in April through that summer, there's a lot of matches with Harley. And so it's almost like I think Harley still thinks that when Jack gives up the title, he's going to get it because there are no Terry Funk matches. Right. So they're not. That whole title switch in December really was a surprise because nobody imagined that Terry would ever win it from Jack Briscoe because they hadn't had any matches. Yeah, all the matches, all the matches were with Harley for the most part. And I think Harley thinks he's going to get the title, which is why he's in Florida anyway booking, because Barnett and Eddie have told him, hey, we're going to get you the title. Way back when he did the favor about getting it, he was the mailman between Dory Jr. And Jack. You know, there are a couple of months getting the title from one guy to the next. And so he was in Georgia for Barnett, then he comes to Florida for Eddie and he's just biden his time till he gets the title back. Except he's not going to get the title back. [01:15:30] Speaker A: Mm, interesting. [01:15:33] Speaker B: So here at the end of August in 75, Jack is defending a lot against Rocky Johnson. Was Rocky Johnson a big baby face in Florida? Was he really? [01:15:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me tell you, Rocky Johnson is kind of underrated by history. I know he's celebrated as the first black tag team champion and all this, but a lot of people didn't get to see how good Rocky Johnson truly was. Not a truly nice guy in real life, every time I've been around him, I must add, but from an action standpoint, especially in the 70s, he was what they were saying Mil Mascaris was Supposed to be. He was flying all over the place. He was extremely athletic, ridiculously athletic and everything. He did look good and he was believable, and he looked like a mountain of a man. And he was a great baby face. [01:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:27] Speaker A: Maybe not the most incredible talker in the world. He had a semi strange Canadian accent. But, you know, as a baby face back then, you didn't have to be. Unless you were Dusty Rhodes. You didn't have to be Mr. Charisma. Even Dusty Rhodes was way more the soul man than Rocky Johnson was. He was a tremendous baby face. [01:16:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know. He was really over in Georgia and he, you know, when Jarrett split from Goulas, I mean, that was the first kind of program we got, was Lawler and Rocky Johnson, and he was presented. [01:17:03] Speaker A: As a boxer up there because of his boxing experience. And they made. They almost made it look like Rocky Johnson was not a wrestler. Like, he's fresh from sparring with Joe Frazier and he's going to be a wrestler. I mean, you know. [01:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Because they knew Lawler could take those incredible big bumps every time he hit him, you know. [01:17:21] Speaker A: Oh, Memphis, by the way, is Memphis not the most fun territory that you've ever been around? [01:17:29] Speaker B: Fortunately, yeah. Really fortunate to grow up here. You know, just. I'm sure as you feel like you. When you grew up in Miami, you know, same time period, same, you know, same kind of connection to the territory. [01:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah. But I mean, you know what? I. I visited Memphis. I went up there a couple times. 83, 84, 85, maybe a total of six or seven times. And I had more fun in those trips than I ever had doing anything in Florida wrestling. Because there was just something about the colorfulness of the characters up there, not just on TV and in the buildings, which was spectacular and way more fun than a Florida show, especially in the 80s. But all those guys behind the scenes, I got to hang out with them, and they were all exactly what you would hope and want. And I just thought that Memphis was such a fun, joyous, colorful territory, and Florida might have been great, but it didn't have that. [01:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. Well, man, listen, I appreciate you being on with me tonight. This is the first of a complete series that we'll be doing on Florida, and we'll come back and do the last couple of months of the year and an episode coming up in a few weeks, and then we'll be getting into 1976. So this is going to be great, man. [01:18:52] Speaker A: Hey, this is going to be an awkward edit, but I Want to plug this poster that I have? I don't know, like, if you have a producer or anything, but if they could put a picture of this poster up. [01:19:01] Speaker B: Sure. [01:19:01] Speaker A: And then the graphic and I'll tell you what the information is for the graphic, and I'll also say it out loud. I only got the idea to do it today, but I have, like, I did this limited edition series of Florida posters for Barry's convention, and I have, like, half of them left. [01:19:14] Speaker B: Okay. [01:19:14] Speaker A: So I figured I'd try, if that's okay. [01:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah, we'll do. All right. [01:19:18] Speaker A: All right. I'll give it a little spiel. And so we can just wrap it up and ask me if I have anything to plug and then we can do a goodbye spiel. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah. All right. So as we. Yeah. So as we're coming up toward the end of the program, Howard, do you have anything you want to plug or say? [01:19:33] Speaker A: Well, funny that you mention it. As the sun goes down on another beautiful South Florida evening, I put together something very lovingly a little while ago. It's called the Hard Way Art promo poster. And it really has its roots and its heart in Florida wrestling. These are all photos that I took, and they are a limited edition 16 by 20, signed, sealed, and delivered for $35. These are on heavy stock. There's about 50 left out of the original hundred. And they will come to you for $35. Signed, sealed, and delivered. You will love it. Each individual photo is a treasure in itself, and it is done in the inimitable Hard Way art style, which I'm sure you will love and see more of in the future. Because this is my 50th anniversary, I'm reinvigorating the Hard Way Art brand website to come. Please hit me up for right now if you should. So enjoy. You should be seeing the poster at the moment. [01:20:37] Speaker B: Yep, producer Dom is on it. He's got it up. [01:20:40] Speaker A: Okay, cool. You can PayPal [email protected] or. And. Or I would be equally thrilled if you would come friend me, Howard Baum. Or check out my Hard Way art page on Facebook. About to become a real life website near you. [01:21:01] Speaker B: Right on. Right. And we'll put that up all in the pro wrestling time tunnel Facebook group, too, so. [01:21:08] Speaker A: Man, I love you guys. I appreciate it. I can't believe I'm part of this. This wondrous channel that you've established, man. [01:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you're. You're. You're on our team, man. You're part of the family. And we're going to be talking about Florida's championship wrestling coming up. So get your limited edition poster. How many got left? [01:21:28] Speaker A: About 50. [01:21:29] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, well, those. Those are going out the door, so check it out. And get one of those posters from Howard. And you will appreciate that in the years to come. Thank you, Howard. I'll see you back here in a few weeks. Okay, man. [01:21:45] Speaker A: I appreciate you guys. [01:21:46] Speaker B: All right. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Thank you all so much. [01:21:48] Speaker B: Well, that was our first Florida territory show here at the Pro Wrestling time tunnel from 1975. A great conversation with Howard Baum. And Howard and I are going to be back in a few weeks to talk about the end of 1975, which is going to include that great world title match and title change in Miami that Howard unfortunately missed. As you heard on today's show, we're still going to talk about it. The video footage is out there. There's a lot that's been said about it. And we will cover all that in Our next Florida 1975 show coming up in a few weeks. I want to remind you that I'm working on a couple of books. The Dorie Funk Senior book, Dori Funk Senior, the King of the Texas Death Matches. I've got just a few more interviews I want to do, but I've already started writing and I had planned to begin writing on October. So as you hear this, that writing process will already be underway. I'm still shooting for a release on July 1, 2026, and the Jim Barnett the Wizard of Professional Wrestling book is now slated for 2027. And even though if you heard my coverage of his life and career on Briscoe and Bradshaw, I still have a lot of things that I'm learning. I'm being contacted by people who are telling me some great things and providing some great background that I think are worthy of being in the book. So it might be a little bit before I conclude the research part of that and start writing, but I think we'll have that book out in 2027. Let me tell you about my social media channels again. I talked about the Pro Wrestling Time Penal Facebook group. You can follow me on x at Tony Richards 4. We got great conversations going on there on the X platform. And on substack, it's Tony Richards 4 Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, and I publish a wrestling history newsletter every single day that's available for subscribers for free. It's called the Daily Chronicle and you can find that on Substack. And I cover things on that date in history and pro wrestling, particularly going back 40 years to 1985, 50 years to 1955, 60 years to 1965, 70 years to 1945. And every now and then we go back to 1935 if there's a significant event to talk about. My premium subscribers get a lot of analysis on the history of territory wrestling in a series that I call the Evolution of Pro Wrestling. And I just published a piece on the 1975 NWA Convention where Sam Mushnick officially retired as president, Fritz Von Erich got elected, and also where they were finally convinced that Jack Briscoe wanted out of the NWA World title because he no showed the convention. And I have all the details about that and all the backstory and everything in that particular article. An analysis of wrestling in both North America and Japan in the month of July 1985, and also a history of the national holiday in Mexico. The national holiday for Lucha libre. Pro wrestling has a national holiday. Did you know that? We just celebrated it on September 21st. And I published an article that came out that day for my premium subs, all about the history of that going back to Salvador Luderoth and when he established Lucha in Mexico. That's all just in September that came out on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel substack. You can go there and check all that out. Coming up here on the show, we got some great stuff on the way. George Shire is going to be coming back soon and we did a show paying tribute to the Great Red Bastine and that I think you're really going to enjoy the first appearance for John Hitchcock, longtime Crockett and Greensboro fan and supporter and historian. And we're going to be talking about the Jim Crockett Promotions in the Carolinas in 1975. And we're also going to be talking about the devastating plane crash that occurred in October just a few days from now in history 50 years ago. So that's going to be exciting to have John on the show. I've got the Vancouver territory coming up on an episode. We're going to have an observer hall of Fame show and a whole lot more coming up here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. As I said before, let me say it again, I can never say it too much, but thank you so much for watching and listening. This is Tony Richards from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky reminding you that if you'll be a better neighbor, you'll have better neighbors. So long from the Bluegrass State. Bye bye everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Pro. [01:26:38] Speaker A: Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode of next week. Interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.