Episode 26: Mid-Atlantic Wrestling 1975 with Guest John Hitchcock

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today, covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. The cream. Yeah, the cream of the crop. And now here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Well, hello again, everybody. This is Tony Richards coming to you with another pro wrestling Time Tunnel podcast, your home for the history of territory wrestling. We go back into the history of the territory era in professional wrestling history from the 30s and the 40s. You know, it's kind of hard to pin back, pinned down, back where the territory era started, but somewhere back there, maybe Even the late 20s, we hardly ever go back that far. But that's really when the territory geographies were starting to form. The small circuits were starting to be formulated, and transportation was becoming a little more convenient with the automobile coming along and the improved roads and everything. And then the geography started getting bigger and expanding more. And so that all went away. 1990 is usually the cutoff I use, even though there still were a couple that were still kind of barely on life support beyond 1990. But we cover the territory era, and today we have another outstanding territory that we want to talk about, which is, and this is the first time we've talked about this one, and that's Jim Crockett Promotions. Jim Crockett Promotions was the name of the promotional company, and they actually promoted things besides professional wrestling. They promoted Harlem Globetrotters. They had a baseball team that they owned. They also did pro wrestling. They did singers that would come through. They would do Mr. Jim Crockett Senior, who started the company, he would do big band concerts and all kinds of events, circuses, all sorts of events. And he would bring them in to Charlotte at first and then expanded out into Carolinas, both North and South Carolina, and into Virginia. At one point, the company was branded the professional wrestling part of it was branded Eastern States Championship Wrestling. And then in around 1973, and this comes up on today's show, that John Ringley, who was running the company, wanted to rebrand it to Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling. And another thing he did was he talked Mr. Crockett into replacing Johnny Weaver and George Becker as the bookers. It was primarily a tag team territory throughout its entire history. But in 1973, John Ringley hired a new booker, and that was George Scott. George Scott is on the Wrestling observer hall of Fame ballot this year in the non wrestler category. And I will just reveal to you now that in my ballot I'm going to be voting for George Scott. And just to go into that very briefly here, and we're going to talk about it with my guest today. But just very briefly, George Scott was responsible for the transformation. He was executing and implementing John Ringley's vision of transforming Jim Crockett Promotions into Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling and going not away from tag team, but really featuring singles wrestling. And one of the people that he brought in was Don Jardine as the Super Destroyer. He brought in Johnny Valentine, who we're going to talk about a lot on the show today, and really revolutionized and really caused Jim Crockett Promotions to go to an entirely new level in its promotions and for its fans in the 1970s and into the 1980s, where it really blossomed and grew into a nationwide promotion. And so today my guest is John Hitchcock. John started watching Jim Crockett Promotions broadcasts on television in the late 60s, and then he started going to matches at the Greensboro Coliseum. He went to a lot of matches there in the 70s. They formed a little group. We're going to talk about that group. John wrote a book, and I've got the book here, it's called Front Row, Section D. And they started wearing suits and ties. They started holding up signs. They were the first kind of fan group that were a fan of the heels. And they jeered and antagonized the baby faces. And so talking to John about how all that started and really somebody who was in the arena and got to experience the magic, that was Johnny Valentine. It's the 50th anniversary of the plane crash that took Johnny out of professional wrestling. That caused him to be paralyzed from the waist down for the rest of his life. It was also the plane crash that broke Ric Flair's back. And Flair, of course, came back, as we all know, to be one of the greatest world champions of all time. Bob Bruggers, who was on the plane, could have come back to wrestling, but instead, instead of coming back, he went into a career in Real Estate. Mr. Wrestling. Tim woods was on the plane, but the newspaper accounts named him as George Burl Wooden, and they called him a promoter rather than wrestler because he was one of the few. He and Bob Ruggers were the two baby faces on the plane, and they didn't want the wrestling fans to know that heels and babyfaces were on the same plane riding together. Remember, this was in the kayfabe era, and David Crockett, who was a Color commentator on the television broadcast was going to the town that night. Wilmington, North Carolina. Jim Crockett Sr. Was homesick and David went in his place to the town that night, and he was in the plane crash and ended up in the same hospital room with Ric Flair. We're going to talk about the plane crash. We're going to talk about Johnny Valentine, the Mid Atlantic, and then later the United States Heavyweight champion in Mid Atlantic Championship wrestling. What his impact was on the territory and on pro wrestling. And what was the devastating effects of his removal from the main events? And how did Jim Crockett Promotions bounce back after the plane crash? What did they do? What were the steps that they took? And I think you will find it very, very interesting in our show today. So let's get started and let's go to my talk and my conversation with my dear friend John Hitchcock. [00:07:29] Speaker C: And hello again, everybody. Welcome to another pro wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. I'm your host, Tony Richards, and tonight at the Richards Ranch, I'm joined by my special guest, John Hitchcock, all the way from North Carolina. We're going to be talking about Jim Crockett Promotions today. We're going to go flashing back to 1975, which was a very pivotal year in Jim Crockett. We're going to go back and forth and push the Time Tunnel lever back and forth between 75 and 85 a little bit because John was very active. When I read in your book, John, that you went to almost every show in 85, I couldn't resist bringing up some of the 85 stuff. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Well, you know, it's funny, you know, I started thinking about it this morning, and I guess I've been watching wrestling ever since I was a little kid, which is closing in on 60 years of watching wrestling. And, you know, I go Back to like 1966, 67, and excuse me, I got a little cold. But anyway, and it was such a. It was such an interest. You were really interested in the 74, 75 period. And that's such a. That's one of my favorite periods in a way, because all the way in the 60s, the Crockets were nothing but a tag team main event group. It was always, you know, Johnny Weaver and George Becker versus a variety of heels that would come in. It was very similar to New York, where Bruno would be champion, for example, and they'd always bring in a heel to go against him, and they'd have their run and then the new heel would show up. Right, right. But around 1972, 73, everything changed. And they say that's the time when George Scott was part of the Flying Scott brothers came in and he decided to promote wrestling as a single. He had. He wanted to change everything from a tag team. And I mean, every single thing. I mean, you can go through the list from the heels were like the Bolos, which they were really, really important. And it messed me up when I was a kid because they appeared other places as the Assassins, but here they were, the Bolos. And if you think about it, you go, why would they do that? But then in the 50s, late 50s, there was a guy called the Great Bolo in the Mid Atlantic area. And I got this from, you know, fans talking about it, you know, smart fans, pretty smart. And so the Caracas, I guess, decided just to stick with the name the Bolos. But then it went from the Bolos to the Infernos, you know, Rip Hawk, Sweet Hansen, which were. They're the first real funny heel team. Aldo Bognia, Branko Lubitsch, who were not very good, but they had. They had always had, you know, Brute, Bernard Skull Murphy, they had all these heel tag teams and they were fascinating to watch. But then suddenly, around 19, I guess it's 73, 74, suddenly this guy showed up called the Super Destroyer. Mmm. And he was. And then I found out later, he was the spoiler everywhere else. But why he was Super Destroyer here, I don't know, but he was. He was like a guy that when as soon as he showed up, you went, oh, this guy's serious. You know, his interviews were serious. He was no joking, no laughing or anything. He was real serious guy. And he was big as shit. He must have been at least six two or six three, maybe more. And he had this really cool mask that looked like it was made to mold to his face. It didn't look like a sock that was pulled over his face. And he was the. He was the first guy that was. Would step on the second rope, jump up and come down with an elbow. He would walk the ropes. Legend has it, I don't know if this is true, but that's where the Undertaker learned how to do it was from Super Destroyer. Who was Ron. Was it Ron Jardine, I think. [00:11:32] Speaker C: Al Jardine? [00:11:33] Speaker A: Don Jardine. [00:11:34] Speaker C: Don Jardine, yeah. [00:11:36] Speaker A: But he. He came in and he was before everybody as single. And of course, he had to go against the perennial baby face, Johnny Weaver. That was what they were building for as the main event kind of thing. And Weaver's big thing was to just try to rip his mask off, but it was kind of impossible. But because his mask was so, you know, well, you know, like, you know what I mean? When you see a Mass, it's like, really well designed. It's not like, really. So. So anyway, he comes in and you're like, this is interesting. Even as a. Even as you're not. You know, by then, I guess I was a. Maybe a teenager. I was like, this is interesting because Weaver's match with this guy, you can tell he's physically just too much, too much. Too big of a guy. Anyway, so then they suddenly do this really weird. They do this thing where they bring in this guy called the Avenger. His name was. His real name was Reggie Parks, I think that's right. But he comes in, he says that he got beat up by this guy. Humiliated, whatever, and he was coming for revenge. And I'm like. I'm like, okay, well, now they got a good guy to go after him. But you could tell that Parks is the Avengers. Mass was kind of cheesy, you know what I mean? So anyway, they. That was. That was the start of, like, the Baby Face heel, big singles feud, you know, in the Mid Atlantic. [00:13:08] Speaker C: From what I understand. From what I understand, Mr. Crockett didn't really want to go away from the tag teams. But John Ringley said he was getting bored with everything. And he said, if I'm getting bored with everything, I can't imagine what the fans are feeling. And he told Mr. Crockett, he goes, you know, we went from tag teams to six mans. He goes, what are we going to do next week? Eight mans. And then after that, 10 mans. And. And so he. He convinced him to bring in George Scott, I think. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Well, you know, Scott became kind of a. He was a legendary guy. I've said this before, but the first tag team ever saw on TV with a Flying Scott brothers, and they were the Flying Scott brothers. They did monkey flip side of the corner and flying head scissors and drop kicks and everything. I mean, they were really, really. They were really athletic and really could go all over the place. [00:14:01] Speaker C: I. You know, George. George. George is up for the hall of Fame. He's on the ballot again this year, and I'm going to vote for him because, I mean, this whole transition that we're talking about right now, and it wasn't even called Mid Atlantic before. I mean, they. They changed the name of the territory and everything is part of that transition, right. [00:14:23] Speaker A: That I'm not too sure of. Always remember it being Mid Atlantic Championship. [00:14:26] Speaker C: Wrestling, But, yeah, I think John Ringley. I think John Ringley changed the brand to Mid Atlantic and they, you know, they brought in the Mid Atlantic Singles Championship and, And all of that in 73 or 74. I can't remember which one. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Well, I'm telling you, when the Super Destroyer came in, it was, it was, it was not subtle. It was like, oh, here's this really badass guy. And just to wrap that up, they finally had the big main event match with the Avenger versus Super Destroyer. Loser lose the mask. And yeah, I wrote about that in my book. But the superior wins. And the Avenger had masked in the middle of the ring and he did. And of course that's when I almost got in a fight because I started yelling, he's ugly. Put the mask back on. Anyway, and there were fans that want to beat me up and shit. So, yeah, I'm kind of. We were pretty. I'm a big guy. But still we, we learned to. Because his fans were. Back then, I mean, I would say, you know, 3, 4, 7, thought everything was totally legit. And, and you know, if you think about Greensboro, you know, we had, you know, ACC football, we had. The religion was ACC basketball. We may have had some, you know, hockey, you know, we may have had some, you know, some double A or triple A baseball, but really everything was big. Suddenly became wrestling. Was it in this whole, this whole area and whole Triad area with Salem and Greensboro and High Point and. Anyway, but suddenly here comes Johnny Valentine and, you know, I'm gonna say something stupid, but it's almost impossible to describe this guy unless you were there. But I guess you want me to try to describe. [00:16:23] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, I do, because I want people to. I want people to know what a big deal Johnny Valentine really was. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Well, you know, it's funny is as. As a wrestling fanatic, you know, we were very fortunate. We got cable television as a test market. 1969. So we could get Florida, you know, and we could get Mid Atlantic. And within a few years, we were getting world class. We were getting WWF out of dc. I mean, we were seeing everything. And then for some stupid reason, I still don't understand why they took Florida off and they put on Georgia. And Georgia was great. You have a superstation, everything. But Florida was something else. But anyway, we were. We. I started watching, you know, anything with a ring, right? And Johnny Valentine showed up. I don't know if it was in Florida or is in Georgia, but he showed up. He lasted like a month. He went in the ring, he totally just pole wax guys and just beat the shit out of Everybody broke somebody's leg and got. Got suspended for a million years and told to leave their territory. So I knew this guy and his reputation that he was. He was like a big time, you know, main event wrestler. I mean big time and a big time heel, you know. We found out later all the history of him in Texas and all that. But when he, when he came in here, I mean the best way. How's the best? He was about probably six one, six two. He probably weighed about 240. He looked like he was chiseled out of marble. But he wasn't like a bodybuilder. He was just like this thick guy, you know what I mean? I mean really thick guy, tan, nice hair, that kind of went back. But there's no way to describe the ferocity of him in the ring. And there's, it's almost impossible. The worst, the hardest thing to describe is he had a theory. The most amazing charisma of any wrestler that ever lived. He would walk out and he would take his time. He was never in a hurry to do shit. And he would just walk out and, and everybody turned and looked at this guy and he would look and he would just take his time and he walk up the steps, one step at a time. He get in the ring, he had this dark, long robe. He'd open it up, it'd be red inside and he'd take it off. And then he would basically just beat the shit out of people. And you're saying, oh come on, this is all a work. The famous line, right? I may not be able to make these fans think this stuff real, but by God though, they'll think I'm real. That's what Johnny Valentine said and by God, it was true. There was no nothing like it. There's no, I've seen, like I said, almost 60 years. There's never been anybody like this guy. [00:19:26] Speaker C: I wish we had more of his television interviews. [00:19:29] Speaker A: He had a low voice, a little lower voice, and he never yelled or screamed or anything. He was just matter of fact. And his big angle when he came in is he had a thousand silver dollars in a fishbowl. And he would say, if you can beat me in 10 minutes, you get the thousand silver dollars. And they would mark guys out there and he would, nobody, nobody got that money. Suddenly, number one, Paul Jones, you know who had been in a tags forever with. [00:20:07] Speaker C: Oh, Nelson Royal. Nelson. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Nelson Royal. And before that he, he was tagging with Nelson Royal was tagging with. Oh God, cowboy guy. Anyway, it doesn't really matter But Paul Jones took him almost to the limit. And what Johnny Valentine did, which is really smart, is he would jump out of the ring and he'd run his hands through the silver dollars. And it was a way for him to basically stall a little bit in the match. And Paul Jones would yell and scream and holler, shit, you know, get him in the ring. Get him in the ring. And then that kind of set up, you know, Valentine wrestling him in main events. But they weren't main events yet. They still had the. The tag teams were still on top, but that was beginning to just to fall apart. But Johnny Valentine had a stare, a confidence. I mean, it was unbelievable. [00:21:02] Speaker C: So talk about when Wahoo got there. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Well, it's funny. You're lucky, because I got to talk to Wahoo, you know, and just in a. Just. I went to the small independent show and I had a bunch of my Mid Atlantic wrestling posters. I wanted to get Wahoo to sign them. And then I asked Wahoo, I said, well, look, man, you know, you signed some posters for me. If you want one, you can have one. Because he said he had nothing as far as memorabilia. And. And I was like, well, just pick one out. I thought he'd take the one where he was going against Jack Briscoe for the world title, and instead he took. He took one of the Johnny Valentine ones, which kind of broke my heart. But I felt like, well, yes, Wahoo, do something nice for him. [00:21:47] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Anyway, and while you said, I'll take this Valentine, everybody talks about him. So I just asked why. I said, look, you know, we're just talking. It's no bullshit here. Tell me what the hell was going on with you and Johnny Valentine, because you guys were just beating the tar out of each other every single night. And he said, well, let me tell you, he said, you know, I started in football with the jets, and I left the jets to go to the expansion Dolphins. He said, it was the dumbest thing I ever did because when I left the jets the next year, Namath wins the super bowl, and I could have made a lot more money staying. But while I was down in Florida, I got up with Eddie Graham and they trained me and do that off season, and I realized I was making more money. So he decided he'd just go ahead and get out. So then he go. He said, then I went to Texas to have, you know, get away from Florida, and he was from Oklahoma, right? So Texas made sense. And he was well known as the football player and everything. And he said his first main Event was with Johnny Valentine. And he just looked at me and he said. He said, I got in the ring with the guy and he beaten the shit out of me. He kicked the shit. He said. He said, I've never had anybody do that. And he said he realized very early that if you didn't fight back, he would just eat you up. I mean, he would just, you know, you weren't going to mess up his. His. His character. He was just going to eat you up. And he said he learned that in those matches that if you didn't fight back, you were in trouble. You're going to really take. You're really going to get hurt, because back then, they were such a closed society kind of thing. And I think Valentine just had this thing about football players thinking they could become wrestlers. He was going to prove to him that, you know, he was. That he was. He was. He was legitimate and he wanted to be a wrestler, you know. And he said every night. I said, well, in Mid Atlantic, he said, man, I was there, I watched. I said, I saw this stuff while I said, jesus Christ, man. I mean, you guys, every night was just be. One night. They were fighting in the ring and Johnny Valentine threw this damn punch. He threw this arm like a pendulum and hit him with a forearm right across the chest. And you could hear it echo into the upper deck. He hit so hard. I mean, it was not like a slap. It was more like it just sounded like two pieces of wood hitting each other. And you could hear it all the way up in the upper deck. These guys were killing each other. And he did it once, and blood and sweat flew off of Wahoo. And it went four and five rows deep into the crowd. This is blood and sweat flying out. They're not on the floor. [00:24:45] Speaker C: Mm. [00:24:47] Speaker A: So I'm laying this insane shit on Wahoo right about my memories. And he just said, all I can tell you is every time I got in the ring with John Valentine, it was on. And he was going to. He was going to get over his character, was that he was the toughest guy in the world. And. And you. You had to brace yourself for. You had to be ready for it. But it was a main event. It was main event money, so you had to deal with it. He said, john, one day I got so tired, you know, and if you look back, they started doing little tag matches and shit to kind of give Wahoo a break, you know what I mean? [00:25:28] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:25:30] Speaker A: But anyway, he. [00:25:33] Speaker C: They actually put him and Paul Jones together for a little while there. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Well, you know, one of the last things Valentine was tagging with was flair. Mm. You know, but anyway, he said one night he got so fucking mad about getting beat up because he said he was getting beat up. He said he decided, screw it. He said, screw everything. He said, I'm gonna try to chop this. I'm hit him. I'm gonna try to knock his fucking head off. That's exactly what he said. He said, I hauled back and I threw a chop on him and I physically tried to knock his head off. I hit him so hard. And he said he staggered back like three steps. His eyes rolled back in his head, and suddenly he kind of came to. He was holding the top rope, and then suddenly he refocused and he said it. It looked. He said he. His eyes were on fire. Then he proceeded to hit me harder than he's ever hit anybody. And he said, I looked at his arms and he had chili bumps running up and down his arm. He said, I'm not gonna say that it was sexual because I don't believe that. He said, but he loved the contact. He loved to get hit, and he. He loved to administer and he loved to take it. And that's just the way the guy was. He was built out of stone. [00:26:55] Speaker C: And which probably made it. Which probably. Which probably. Which probably made Wahoo one of his favorite guys to work with then. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Well, they sure did. Main event. [00:27:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Oh, in Houston. They're led yet In Houston. They are too. [00:27:16] Speaker A: So, John. Yeah. I also always wonder, if it wasn't have been for the plane crash, would Valentine have possibly gotten a run at, you know, at the world title? But I don't think the more I think about it, you know, if you're the world champion, you've got to be able to sell to make the other tag out look good. [00:27:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:44] Speaker A: And I don't think that really was any anywhere shape or form. Valentine's strengths. [00:27:50] Speaker C: Well, about. About a month. About a month after the plane crash. The plane crash was on October 4th and November. Fourth or fifth was when the committee met to talk about the next champion. And that's when Terry. Terry Guy. And it was between Terry and Harley. But I'm with you, I think. And I'm not saying they would have gone with John, but he would have been in the discussion. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just makes you wonder. I mean, because he. He always was a draw. You had to be patient with it, but you always be the draw. And then the famous thing was that you turn him heel, he. He kills everybody, but he gains this fear and respect from the fans. And when he turns face against somebody who's another bad guy, people would cheer him because they want him to beat people up. And he, well, he was turn and he would have been, he would have been a good guy. I think he probably would have gone up against the Anderson brothers, you know, Oli and Gene. [00:28:52] Speaker C: Well, he was known everywhere because he worked everywhere. So it's, it's, you know, he was a known commodity on that world title level. So I don't know, I think he would have been in the discussion. I don't think they would have gone with him because I don't think, I don't think they could have imagined. [00:29:08] Speaker A: 50Th anniversary of the plane crash. [00:29:10] Speaker C: Yes. [00:29:11] Speaker A: I mean that's crazy to even think about. [00:29:13] Speaker C: But I mean I think they, I think they would have thought that he would not have been as effective putting guys over like the champion had to do. [00:29:24] Speaker A: That's what I, that's kind of the more you think about it. But there was, there was. Johnny Valentine is a single character, a singular heel character that, I mean everybody, I mean in Luther's book Hooker, he just said if Johnny Valentine knew any wrestling holes whatsoever, he would be unstoppable. You couldn't top him. But he didn't, he did what he did and that was it. But I tell you, get old timers with like me together with some other old guys, you suddenly hit that, that subject of, of Johnny Valentine and I mean, and they all become 14 year old kids and they're just like. There was nothing like him. There was nothing like him. I was upper deck when he came out once and I stood up to give him a standing ovation and he saw me and he took his time walking through the aisle and he looked at me the whole way and I got scared and I'm in the upper deck and I tried to look away and he wouldn't break his look. He has, he has, he was just trained on me and he watched me and after a while I just quit looking at him and suddenly got out my chair and I turned around to walk away and I said to myself, well, it's not like he could hit you when you're in the upper deck and he's on the floor. So I looked at him and I went, I was what? You got me his vision, his, his attention. I mean it was, is unbelievable. [00:30:54] Speaker C: I mean he's just one of those guys that, I mean he had an aura, right? I mean he just had the, he's like he's sending vibes out or something. [00:31:03] Speaker A: You know, he. He just. I mean, like I said, there was. He earned your respect in the ring. I mean, he really did. And. And even though you were afraid of him, whenever he went up against somebody, you were kind of afraid that he was going to kill, beat the shit out of him, which he was, but you still respected him. You know, even the, Even the fans, all the, you know, real fans, you know, baby face fans and everything. So, yeah, it's. It's one of those things that I feel really inadequate in trying to explain it. I've talked a lot of older guys. We talk, we go. You just had to be there to experience it because, you know, nobody hit people harder than Wahoo and Johnny Valentine. And you can go through the record. It's. Trust me, it's not even close. It sounded like nothing else. The only person I can think of that, well, Harley Race comes to mind. I mean, Race was tough. He was tough and he's the. He's the guy that, you know, came up here from Florida as Handsome Harley Race and lost the US belt to Johnny in Greensboro. And it went about 58 minutes and nobody left their seat. Nobody. They were glued to their seat, watching every second. And they would start out where they would kill each other. They go to working holds for about 10 or 15 minutes and it would look like Harley was being choked out, you know, with a headlock. And then he would put his hand up in the air and one thing, no, no, no. And they go back and forth, they breaking. And they got to it. And the fans began, you know, just. It was incredible. And then they would just go to the main. They go for the last 10 or 15 minutes and they would be nothing but just, you know, suplex and big, big elbows and stuff. And. And then they announced, you know, there's only two minutes left to go. And Valentine wins. And when he wins, the crowd exploded in a baby face pop. And Valentine couldn't believe when he was walking to the ring that he got cheered. But he was our guy, right? You know what I mean? And Ray was billed out of Florida Handsome Harley Race wearing a Hawaiian shirt. So they. You want everybody to boo him, but you really couldn't, even though you weren't really sure who he was, but you knew he was great. And. And they had a rematch less than a couple of weeks, like a few weeks later, and they went another 50 some minutes and Johnny kept the belt. And as you know, the US Belt back then was a touring belt. You know, it was A big deal. The US Belt was a big deal. It wasn't just entrenched in one territory. It would travel. And so that was a big deal. And that's also when you knew that Crocketts were becoming a real power player in the nwa Because a belt like that turned hands. And it turned hands to one of our guys that was kind of working out of the Mid Atlantic. [00:34:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Another thing that should be mentioned is the. Is after that plane crash, they had a tournament in Greensboro and. And the winner was. Was going to get the US built. And the Coliseum was sold out. I think back then it probably ceded close to 15,000. And people could. People couldn't get in. And. And that was. That was a hell of a night. That's. That might be the best night of wrestling I ever saw. But, you know, I don't know if you want to hear all about that. [00:34:53] Speaker C: But, yeah, that was on November 9th, and it drew 15,076 people. And Terry. Terry Funk beat Paul Jones in the main event for the title. [00:35:06] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Well, they did something really interesting because they had Harley race in the first match beat. Oh, God, Tiger Conway Jr. And when he did what he. The first time we ever saw it, he did the headbutt off the top rope onto Tiger Conway and he landed like head to head. And it sounded like two bowling balls hitting each other. And they carry Tiger out on a stretcher. So they were establishing that Harley wrestling was the real shit. He's the real deal. We knew that's what we saw wrestle, you know, Johnny Valentine, so. And Wahoo beat superstar Billy Graham in the first match. I think that's right. And what they did is Graham big finish was he put the full nelson on him and Wahoo ran up the turnbuckle and then fell back on him and pinned him while he was being. While he had the. [00:36:08] Speaker C: Full nelson on. [00:36:09] Speaker A: The full nelson on. And that's when we began to realize superstar Billy Graham really was the shits in the ring. He wasn't all that good. This is a sidebar. You know, Mid Atlantic actually got Pedro Morales after the big run in New York with Bruno. And everybody saw the. The press, everybody saw the magazines, and so he showed up in the middle of the card in Greensboro and he was wearing a sombrero. And I was there, of course, for that. And he got into the ring and when they announced him, everybody got up because, like, man, this is the guy. Shea Stadium, you know, all that shit, right? So. And within five minutes, the fans knew he wasn't any Good. It just, it was just like, you know, they're used to certain things. You know, the Greensboro fans were, were used to really hard hitting, stiff stuff and he didn't sell stuff very well. And, and, and he didn't stay a month. He, I think they were going to try to use him to bring in, you know, some more, you know, Mexican, Spanish type audience, you know what I mean? And, and he just, he just didn't, he wrestled in that, you know, candy ass WWE shit and the mid Atlantic was, was blood and guts and you know, I mean, really hard hitting stuff, he just didn't fit and he was gone. The fans didn't buy him at all. [00:37:38] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Same thing happened to Greg Valentine the first time they brought Greg in and you know, they advertise Greg as Johnny's brother, but we kind of figured that wasn't kosher. And the first time Greg got in the ring, he took a chop or. Yeah, I think Wahoo probably was. Took a chop and he staggered back and like covered up. And you hear the man go, the whole coliseum goes. It's like he's just not as tough as his old man. Then later it changed when he started tagging with Flair and his interviews were pretty good. So anyway, well, I was gonna ramble. [00:38:18] Speaker C: That's all right, John. I was gonna ask you what was the impact on you as a fan and as the, and on the other fans when you found out about the plane crash and you found out Johnny Valentine was on the plane? [00:38:33] Speaker A: Well, we just figured he'd kick out. You know, if a wing fell on him, he would kick out. You know, I mean he was just so tough and, and then you hear the details that he for some reason to sit in the front seat of the plane and when the plane was crashing, he braced himself and then everybody in the back seats came crashing in on him and broke his back. Flair was injured pretty bad too. We were smart enough to figure out that Tim Wooden was probably Tim woods, but we always kind of show in. [00:39:10] Speaker C: The newspaper, in the newspaper accounts he was George Burl Wooden. And they listed him as a, it listed him as a promoter because he was the only, he was the only baby face on the plane. [00:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah, well, except for David Crockett, who's the biggest home homer announcer in the history of mankind. [00:39:31] Speaker C: Yeah, but he, I mean the only wrestler, you know was. I don't know, I don't know if Bob Brogers was. Was he a baby face or heel? [00:39:40] Speaker A: Yeah, he was a baby face, but he was just a, you know, lower middle of the car type guy, really athlet athletic, could do, could do a lot of that. You know, the high flying stuff. I still maintain and I may be the only person that remembers this. He did make appearance about a month after the plane crash on tv. Nobody else remembers this but me and said he was going to try to, you know, get back in shape and get back in the ring also. I'm one of the few people in the world that remembers that. I remember at the US Tournament, Johnny Valentine made an appearance in a wheelchair, said he was gonna fight, come back and try to back into the ring. Nobody remembers that. So I must, you know, I must have been drinking me diopsies or something. But, but I tell you one thing, that, that, that plane crash, we were just like, you know, I mean we were, we were devastated because you didn't know, you know, the news that you got was just, you know, photographs and the newspaper results, you know, not a lot of history behind. Likely you get it now, but we just kind of figured he'd come back and he, you know, he, he, I guess he ended up be able to walk with walkers due to pure in, you know, guts. And then eventually he was in a wheelchair. But I always wondered about what would happen with the future. We already discussed that. [00:41:08] Speaker C: But yeah, what did people think about. What did people think about Flair being out of action? I mean, it was, I mean he was in his, what, second year in the Mid Atlantic at that point. [00:41:19] Speaker A: First he, yeah, I mean he, I think he came in around 73. He was hagging with Rip Hawk because Sweet Hansen had a, had a heart attack or something. Some kind of health issues, you know. Flair stood out immediately because most of the wrestlers were older guys. And here's this young guy and he's got that yelling and screaming, you know, I'm the best, baby, blah, blah, blah, Woo. He would do that even then. And we began to warm up to him. But, and I heard he got badly hurt and for some reason he didn't sit in the front seat. Johnny did. And normally he would sit in the front. That's just weird things about history. But you know, they brought in, you know, Blackjack Mulligan. They got him out of New York to come in to go up against Wahoo. And then soon after that, Blackjack tagged with Flair. And then they did a turn and had that famous, you know, you know, robe angle. [00:42:22] Speaker C: Yeah, that's, that's why the Black Jacks tag team championship run in New York was so short. Was Blackjack opted out to go back To Charlotte. [00:42:33] Speaker A: Well, you know, the thing about Blackjack Mulligan that's terrific is Blackjack Mulligan wrestled as a big man. He didn't try to do all this high flying shit. He wrestled as a big guy and he had great charisma. He had great cowboy interviews. He was pretty, he was kind of funny, but he had great facials. When he would get angry, you know, eyes get open and bug out and. But he, you know, he was, he was rare. It's now it's almost impossible to see somebody wrestle like a big guy. But Blackjack, did he wrestle like a big guy? [00:43:10] Speaker C: Do you have any memories? [00:43:12] Speaker A: I don't know how that gets over with, with people nowadays. But, but everything he did really meant a lot. [00:43:19] Speaker C: Do you remember anything about what Bob Cottle said or how long was it before any thing was said on television? [00:43:27] Speaker A: Well, they kind of had to, but he, you know, they just said they, they, they kind of soft pedaled it as far as attention wise, because what could they do? You know, they had to change the page and they're making money, right. So they have to go ahead and go to the next thing. [00:43:45] Speaker C: So a week after the plane, after the week after the plane crash, there's a card in Greensboro on the 11th of October. Was that card already booked or did they have to hurry something in because they had Briscoe and Funk Jr. In the main event for the title? [00:44:01] Speaker A: Well, I think that was part of the. Sometimes the Crockets would do so, would do really smart things where they would say, okay, we're gonna have a Florida invasion. And they would bring out, they would bring in Dory and Terry, Jack. Jack and Jerry Briscoe. They bring in a bunch of the Florida guys and. And we were starting to get it on cable, right. So we knew who they were and everybody knew Jack Briscoe was right. So they would plug something like that in. They actually had a match. They had a card once in Greensboro where they had a Japanese invasion and they had a giant baba, tiger mask, original Tiger mask, Jumbo Saruta. They had those guys come in. [00:44:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, every Thanksgiving card from 1970 to 1976 has a Briscoe or a Funk on it. [00:44:58] Speaker A: Well, I think, I think those two, Dory Funk Jr. And Jack Briscoe, they set a bar and the only people that ever got to that bar were Steamboat Flair. As far as the quality of, overall quality of matches. [00:45:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I've often said that, I've often said that it was really unfair Terry to get the title because he had to come after Funk Jr. Had it for four years and then Jack had it for three years and they had been wrestling each other for six years. And then Terry had to come and be the champion after that. And it was a bar, like you say, that hardly anybody could reach. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Well, the thing about, the thing about Terry is I always thought that was why that US Tournament thing was so important. He wins the US Belt and then they say, okay, let's see if this guy's mature enough to buy, defend a title and make the dates and if he's a draw, right. And then, and then after a period of time he, about a month later they go, well he's, he's showing, he's, he can do it. Because Terry had a reputation to being kind of crazy and, and he loses the belt to Paul Jones in Greensboro. And then soon after that, I'd be interested to know exactly how much time. But then Terry had his run for about a year. [00:46:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it was only about a month. It was only about a month after he lost it to Paul Jones that he won the title in Florida. [00:46:20] Speaker A: See, that's what I, that's the way I kind of remember this. I don't have anything written down this off top of my head, but I can tell you this much. When, when Paul Jones won the title, they were going to run with him as a single and the first batch back, he went up against Angelo Mosca senior and you know, Angela Moscow senior was a, was a scary looking guy, a big scary looking guy, but he wasn't, he wasn't much in putting somebody, making somebody look good, you know what I mean? I mean, you know, he was just a big ex Canadian football player dude and his son was the worst. But anyway, that was, that was when you knew something was up because they had, they were the main event. Paul Jones versus Mosca Sr. And, and after the tag match they only had 8,000 people. The Coliseum seven, 8,000. This is from 14, 15,000. Right. And people half the Coliseum and I'm not bullshitting, half the Coliseum started leaving before the main event because they just didn't buy Paul Jones as a, as a champion, a singles champion. They bought him as a tag champion and they bought him as a manager. But it was like he was going to lose that belt real quick after that. I don't remember. I know they gave it to, didn't they give it, I think they gave it to Dino Bravo once but he didn't last but about a month. And then they gave it to, I think going to either Wahoo or Blackjack or somebody like that. [00:47:53] Speaker C: Yeah. I want to ask you about a little bit more about this tournament and just kind of go through the last. Well go from the quarterfinals to the semifinals to the finals. But in the quarterfinals of the U.S. title tournament on Nov. 9, Terry Funk be Rufus R. Jones. And then over. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Rufus was over like crazy with everybody. They love that guy. The fans, they love that guy. Okay. [00:48:27] Speaker C: Dusty beat Blackjack Mulligan. And then Harley, Harley Race beat Wahoo. I bet that. I bet that was a match. [00:48:38] Speaker A: What I remember about that match is what. Harley beats Wahoo. They spill out on the floor after the match. Wahoo grabs a chair and chairs Harley in the head with a couple of brutal chair shots. And then Harley bleeds and he comes out for his match against Paul Jones. And he's got his head all taped up from the savage beating of Wahoo McDaniel put on him. So that's how they kind of set up the story that Paul could beat Harley because Harley was already being seen as one of the top five, six guys in the promotion. Yeah. And in the NBA. Nwa. Excuse me. [00:49:18] Speaker C: So Harley comes out doing the spirit of 76 thing. Paul Jones beat Johnny Weaver and then. And then Terry Funk beat Dusty in the semis. And then Terry beat Paul Jones in the. Or Paul Jones be Harley, as you said. And then Terry beat. Terry beat Paul Jones, which set up their match on Thanksgiving. I mean, Terry basically held it for like, three weeks until Thanksgiving. And I guess, like you say, it was to make three weeks worth of title defenses. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, you want to, you know, want to see? There was a. There was a card once where. Oh, man, they had fun. Senior and junior in a tag match and against, I think, the Briscoes. I can't remember. [00:50:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that was Thanksgiving. That was Thanksgiving 72, I think. [00:50:21] Speaker A: And that. And that was really interesting because Funks, their father was. Was really good and a tremendous heel. But it was. I told this to the Funk brothers once when Cornett was having Smoky Mountain. I went for a thing and got a couple of autographs on some old posters and. And I told him. I said how much I admired watching their father. And they turned and looked at me and goes, you remember when our dad was wrestling? I said, yeah. And he goes, what do you remember? They stopped everything they wanted. They wanted to hear my story. I said, well, you know, you guys always in Florida did the thing with the younger brother, the world champion, and the, you know, productive father. And you would have Terry go up against, like, Jack Briscoe. And then Jack Briscoe would win. And then the old man would say, okay, I'm. You're going to have to fight me and if you can beat me, you can get a match. And then he beat the old man. Then he finally had a big run with the, with the champ, right? But when he came to Mid Atlantic, Dory Funk Senior for some reason act like some maniac, some crazy maniac who was running around going. And it was the weirdest thing because they were already so well established, but they decided to do that. And it was going to be in a tag match. And it was like. It was like a total reverse because Dory Funk Senior was the crazy guy and Junior was trying to reel him in. I told them that and they looked at each other and I said, it really confused me. And they looked at each other and went, it would confuse me too if I saw that. They started laughing. They were like, well, thanks for telling us story about our dad. [00:51:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Because I think this is just stuff that rambles around in my head. But you know, everybody talks about what a genius Eddie Graham was, but I think Dorie Funk Jr. And his booking may have been just as good, if not better, but there's none of it for us to see. You know, it's all. It's all gone. But I think, I think Funk Senior, I heard that, that Eddie Graham kind of cut his teeth down in Florida under Dorie Funk Jr. Actually, he actually. [00:52:24] Speaker C: Cut his teeth in amarillo in the 50s. He was. He was actually NWA World Tag Team Champion with Funk Senior. And they were. They were both under a booker from Texas named Doc Sarpolis. And Sarpolis kind of was the first booker to ever put false finishes in a match. And. And Eddie stayed there for gosh, five, six years, I think. And they, they actually did the first lights out match in Wichita Falls, Texas. And Eddie fell in love with that match because, I mean, Florida had, you know, dozens of them. And well, they. [00:53:06] Speaker A: All this knowledge comes from somebody, right? You try to figure it out. And that's woman out. When. As soon as I saw that Eddie Graham was. Was in Texas and learning underneath Senior under the, you know, that whole thing that I figured Senior must have. He must have picked a lot up from him. That's just all. This is just all stuff that I've been rambling around in my head. [00:53:25] Speaker C: Oh yeah, he picked up a lot from. He picked. I mean, Sarpolis trained Funk Senior and he trained Eddie Graham, he trained Leo, but Garibaldi, he trained Jody Hamilton. He taught all Those guys to book. And then. And then Funk Senior, he. He took over the territory after Sarpolis had a heart attack, and he just kept mentoring these dudes, you know. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Well, that. That totally makes sense. I appreciate you telling me that. I. You know, there's just so much that, you know, I. When I'm telling you stuff, this is stuff either I got from great sources or it's just stuff I experienced firsthand and saw. And. But that U.S. tournament thing, I mean, they. The thing that really kind of bothered me at the time was it was supposed to have a couple of. They had supposed to have a couple of other people that were supposed to show up, and they didn't. And how was his name? I can't. Anyway, I can't imagine one. [00:54:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I can't imagine it being a stronger card than it was. I mean, goodness gracious. [00:54:31] Speaker A: Well, I think Red Bastine was supposed to be there, and I think. What was the other guy's name? The guy, man, he. He was west coast guy. [00:54:43] Speaker C: Tag Race Ray Stevens. [00:54:46] Speaker A: Ray Stevens was supposed to be there and he didn't show. And I was thinking, well, that explains why Johnny Weaver's in it. That explains why, you know, Gene Anderson or something's in it. I mean. But anyway, and it was interesting to see that. That crowd reaction when Paul Jones got the belt, because it was just like Pete. The fans just didn't buy it. And. But, you know, it's funny, you know, we start talking about this stuff and. And it just. It all comes flowing back. I have one of those weird memories that I can remember everything. [00:55:20] Speaker C: Well, I want to ask you about this match on Thanksgiving between Blackjack Mulligan and Mr. Wrestling. That only went like seven minutes, but that seems like that would be like a clash of styles. But how'd they. How they. How'd they work that match? Do you remember? [00:55:37] Speaker A: I don't remember that match, but it sure sounds like they were trying to put blackjack over as a killer heel. Yeah, well, you know that. One of the funny things about me, I was telling you about the cable thing, and we got to see everything, is they did that famous match with Greg Valentine breaking Wahoo's leg, Remember? And he wore the shirt. I broke Wahoo's leg and all that. Well, the next week on Floor On. I guess it was on Georgia. Wahoo runs out with a cowboy hat on, and he's tagging with Dusty to go beat up to get another feud. And so you're watching it as a teenager. You're going, well, that tells me one or two things. One, it tells me either, you know, either. Let me see it. It means they can't tell that. They can't tell. They don't know that we can see this stuff. Or Wahoo's a really, really fast healer from a broken leg. And. And you. And you see stuff like that happen all over the place because they didn't know that we could see it. But you can't under. You can't understate what a big deal Blackjack Mulligan was. And it was the classic. He comes in as a heel, has the big feud, taking the spot of Valentine against again with Wahoo as the face. And then. And then it. Then Flair catches on with Blackjack for a while, and then Flair breaks up with Blackjack. And then they had their big run. And I think probably after that, that's when Greg came in and they did the, you know, the. The blondes. You know, the blonde bomber guys. [00:57:16] Speaker C: Right, right. Let's look. [00:57:19] Speaker A: I was there that night where they had Oli and Gene Anderson versus Greg and. And Rick in the main event. And everybody in that Coliseum went to see the Andersons beat the shit out of Valentine and Flair. They wanted them to shut those young punks up. They really. I mean, you could see it. It was in the air. They were going to kill him. And when they. They grabbed Gene and ran him into that post on the floor, into his shoulder, and they got the win, nobody could believe it. And that was really a kind of a changing of the guard kind of thing. But Gene was going in for. I guess Gene was going in for legitimate surgery, and they had to run that angle to get him out of the, you know, the main event. [00:58:01] Speaker C: So let's fast Forward up to 85. Let's go to 40 years ago. And what was it like with the transition from 84 to 85? Because it seems like, you know, 84 was not quite Mid Atlantic type standards, but in. In 85, it seemed like the momentum was really picking up. What was that like as a. [00:58:24] Speaker A: Well, you know, you think about 83 with Starcade, and, And that was. That was just something. Because everybody knew that Flair was going to win the belt. If you want to see the world championship change hands, this is your chance. And I know that was kind of, what, November, December kind of period, and. But they had an annex next to the Coliseum. It's not there anymore, but they had such a turnout for that, for that map for Starcade. They opened up the annex and put in some TVs. They charged like five bucks. A hit. And they sold that out, too. So that's why it had. I think they said the attendance on it was like 18,000 something, because they could, they could have sold tickets in a bar all day. I mean, it was crazy, the turnout on that. And, and it was. It was a great, great wrestling night. That. Matter of fact, that was the first night that Tony Schiavone started working for Crockett. That's when he first become an announcer with 83. But, you know, then they, they did the 184, the one where it was player versus dusty. And then Joe Frazier stopped it on a cut. [00:59:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:38] Speaker A: That was kind of a. The air coming out of the tires a little bit because that really was a stupid booking decision. And, and then around 85, and that's about the time that Tully Blanchard shows up. [00:59:56] Speaker C: And yeah, he and Wahoo were a heel team there at the end of 84. [01:00:02] Speaker A: Well, I was in Charlotte for the match where they had a tournament and totally gets eliminated. But he takes the chair to Manny Fernandez and hurts his leg. And the main event was Manny versus Wahoo. And Wahoo's in the ring and Manny's yelling at Wahoo, go for the leg, because he's hurt. And Wahoo didn't want to do it because he was always a face. And then he finally did. He just turned. He went ahead and went after the hurt leg and got the win. And the fans started booing Wahoo. And that's when they did that Wahoo turn for a short period because that was in the Charlotte Coliseum. They probably put in about 8,000 for that. That was, that was when things started to change. And it was funny because I'm going to tell this story when I next time I see Totally and Arn, this is when we all started moving down to the front row, right? And we all start wearing coats and ties, sunglasses. And we had the posters cheering for the heels. And the fans began to pick up on it and they began to really hate us. But one day we're sitting on the front row and these two guys, these two young guys run down. They go. They go, let me ask you a question, man. I said, okay. He says, yeah, yeah, sure. He says, there's something I just don't understand. I said, what is it? He goes, well, I can understand, you know, you cheering for Anderson, because Arn Anderson, he's like the enforcer. He's tough. He's a really bad guy. I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, Arn's really tough. And he goes, and only Anderson, he's the rock, man. He's part of the Minnesota Greg and crew. I mean he's, he's a legend. He's a legendary tough man. I said, yeah, yeah, you're right. He goes, and Ric Flair, Ric Flair, man, he's the champ. He's the champ. He's got the belt. He's the greatest, he's the best. I said, yeah, he is. He goes, but that Tony Branch. That Tony Branch is a. Some bitch. That guy's the guy who did it. He's the asshole who did that. Tony Branch. It is the one that did it. And how do you argue with the fact he can't pronounce the guy's name? I just went, you know what? I think you're right. I think it's that Tony Branch it. And they walked away. See, I told you it was Tony Branches, the bad apple. Blah blah, blah blah blah. But there's nobody that was a better heel. Tully Blanchard, they hated him and we loved him. God, he was a great heel. [01:02:27] Speaker C: When Crockett, When Crockett got on tbs, that was kind of my first exposure because I grew up in the Tennessee territory. And that was kind of my first exposure to Crockett at all. That was in 85, in April when they got on television and I. And I was already trading tapes. But I started trading for every old mid Atlantic tape I could find. And I didn't. When I first saw Paul Jones on tbs, I didn't get it, you know. And I thought this is. I don't understand this guy. But man, I didn't know the context, you know what I mean? I mean I didn't agree too. [01:03:06] Speaker A: I mean he was in there in the. In the late late 60s, early 70s. It was, he was. It was Tex McKenzie and Nelson Royal. And when Tex McKenzie left, that's when Paul Jones got in there. And then soon Paul start his big run was with Steamboat. That was a big, big. That was in 77, 76, 77. But no Paul Jones. You watch it now and it's really funny because he acts like an 8 year old kid, does his interviews as a manager, you know, that kind of stuff. And you kind of think it's pretty funny. At least I find it funny that a grown man would act like that. But that was kind of his character. But he was talented guy. [01:03:49] Speaker C: I mean, I mean I didn't, I just didn't. I just didn't know about all that history that he had in. In Charlotte and in Mid Atlantic. And then I didn't know he threw the title off the bridge in Tampa and all that stuff, you know. But after I found all that out, I'm like, oh, I've got a complete different appreciation for the guy, you know. [01:04:10] Speaker A: Well, I ended up meeting him at the. At the Wrestle Fest, the great. The Gathering thing in Charlotte. He was waiting for a cab. It was waiting for somebody to drive to the airport and. And I walked up and I went, number one, Paul Jones. And he goes, hey, how you doing? I said, you mind if I ask you a question? He said, yeah, yeah, I'm waiting for my cab. Go ahead. And I said, well, you know, I'm John. I'm one of the guys in the front row, Greensboro. And he went, oh, man, I love you guys. You guys are funny as shit. I said, thanks. And I said, what was. Let me ask you. I said, what was the deal when you were down in Florida and when you, you know, you won the Florida title, you won the TV title, which was the Paul. You named it the Paul Jones TV Trophy. He won every title. And then he did this interview that was priceless, where Jack and Jerry Briscoe were in the ring. And Paul Jones runs up to Solely, and he's got, you know, Gordon, I've been so successful here. I've won all the belts, blah, blah, blah. And Jack doesn't have any belts. And I've decided I'm going to give him the Paul Jones TV trophy because there's no way he can beat me because I'm vastly superior to him. And I'm just going to give him the. I'm gonna give him the brat. I'm gonna give him the tv. Paul Jones TV trophy. And solely scores going, well, I don't think that's a good idea. You know, that Indian temper. No, no, he'll love it. And he puts his arm around Solely, and he goes, he'll love it, Gordon, Come on, I got all the women. This will help Jackie out. And he puts. He runs to the ring and he stops the match. And he gives Jack Briscoe the tv. The Paul Jones TV trophy. And he smashes it in the ring. And Paul Jones is on his hands and knees trying to put the thing back together and crying. And. And. And it was. It was great. And I asked Paul about that. He said, I can't. First off, I can't believe you remember all that. And I said, I remember everything. But he said. He said, that was. John. He said, that was the only time I came into a territory and let me book my own stuff. I had total freedom. To book whatever I wanted to and they let me do it. And he said that was some of the best time of my life in wrestling was going to Florida and be able to book that stuff. And then in play play off a Jack Briscoe. [01:06:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:06:18] Speaker A: So he was a lot smarter than, you know. [01:06:21] Speaker C: Well, I think that's something going back to what we were talking about while ago. I think that's something Eddie learned from Sarpolis and Funk Senior, because they did that. I mean, I read that in Jody Hamilton's book that, you know, they would let you run with your ideas, they'd kind of craft the finish around it, you know, and talk into finish. But they, they let you pretty much have a lot of input into what you were doing. [01:06:45] Speaker A: Mm. But I tell you in 85 Mid Atlantic to get back on the subject. Yeah. When, when, when totally showed up with Baby Doll, I was always kind of surprised that the, the women in the crowd were fascinated by Baby Doll and her fashion. They started trying to copy it. It was weird. It was like Madonna or something. You know, they really liked her, even though, you know, she was played the heel. And, and when it all kind of came together with, with the Horsemen, you know, it. You've never saw anything like it. [01:07:29] Speaker C: I mean, were you that, were you there the night in Charlotte when she knocked out Magnum with the quarters? [01:07:34] Speaker A: No, no. But we, you know, I, I get criticized because some people think I'm lying about this, but we decided we had enough people. We had about four, about 14 fans. And we were sitting in the orange seats, which is the first big high rise up. And we decided we were going to stir it up and first time ever, like be a heel organization, like fan group. And that's when we spelt out Horsemen in block letters on poster boards. And it was interesting because the match was Flair and Tully with J.J. dillon, who's way he's a tremendous, tremendous manager. He deserves a lot of credit for being so terrific at what he did against rock and roll. And, and it was when they came out, when the bad guy, when you know, Flair and Tully, J.J. cames out, came out, we flipped the signs and spelled out Horseman. JJ saw it on the floor and he jumped up and got in the ring and grabbed Tully and went, look at that. And totally looked at it and went, oh my God, that's right. And Flair was at the other turnbuckle yelling at somebody and they ran over and got Flair and said, you got to see this. And they grabbed him and showed him and Flair went, you know, woo. And started dancing and pointing to us and clapping to us. And we're. We're chanting like horsemen. Horsemen. And then we decided to flip the signs and on the backside said Romper Room for Rock, Ricky and Robert, you know, rock and roll. And when we did that, Tully sat on the second turnbuckle and started laughing. And JJ was laughing. They were all laughing. Flair was laughing. And Flair didn't break character very often. And so we flipped it back over, and here comes, you know, Ricky and Robert, Shama Lamba Lamb, Rock and Rolls King. And they came out to the ring, they're jumping up and down, and Tully, JJ and Flair looked at them, and they put their hands up for a second. They went. And they pointed and said, look at that. And we had the signs that said Horseman, and we flipped it and spelled Romper Room. And they, And Ricky and Rob are just frozen and in, you know, in space, you know, they know, what the hell is that all about? Because they've been doing this interview, talking about rock and roll and everything. And the Horseman said, the difference is we like the girls in the big sweaters and you like the girls in the T shirts and the training bras. Your Romper Room. And we're the Horsemen, you know, you like the little girls. You can hear Flair saying that junk now, that stuff now. Anyway, and that. That crowd went crazy and. And we realized, I mean, we're buying drinks and throwing them on us. You know what I mean? I mean, one guy had a spit cup and threw it on us. [01:10:35] Speaker C: They couldn't get to the. They couldn't get to the wrestlers. They could get to you guys, though. [01:10:40] Speaker A: Oh, God. And. And when, you know, think about it, when you have Ric Flair and totally Blanchard pointing you out, clapping for you, you don't think the heat's on us. So we suddenly. We didn't really plan this very well because we suddenly went, wait a minute, totally is the US Belt. And then Flair's got the world belt, and Ricky and Robert have got the world tag team titles. And this is for the tag team titles. I have a sneaky suspicion that. That Tully and Flair are not going to win. So we're going to have to run. I mean, I swear to God, I'm not kidding. We're thinking that we got. We're gonna get killed because these people want a piece of us. There were intermissions during that match. This one lady walked up and she says, I'd like to talk to you for a second. And we were, yes, ma'. Am. She goes well, I've written a prayer for you. I'm gonna pray for your souls because you people are obviously have a problem. And she got down on her knees and prayed for us that night. I'm not kidding. You think I'm joking? I'm not. [01:11:36] Speaker C: No, I know. I've been to plenty of wrestling matches in the 70s and 80s I had. And I. I don't doubt it a bit, lady. [01:11:43] Speaker A: This one lady, she said, what do you mean? T shirts and training bras for the, for the, for the freaking Rock and Roll Express. And we went, yeah, they. You got to be big girl in the sweater. And she pulled her top off, up and said, these big enough for you? And we're like, well, if that's a hope chest, keep hoping, baby. If that's a. If that's a. If that's a pancake, you better flip it. And the heat just kept building. So we knew we were in trouble, right, because there was no way. And you know, they changed the finish. They had, they had Ric Flair put a. They had now, they had totally put a chair into first and the second and third rope. And Flair grabbed Ricky Morton, who was wearing that tape on his nose. We had tape on our nose going, broken nose, broken nose. And this week we left nothing to the imagination on this night. And then Flair grabs Ricky Morton face first into the chair. Bam. And pins him. And then we explode and we go, we won. We're the champs. We got all the belts, you know. And then Dr. Tom Miller, who was a tremendous, tremendous ring announcer, he goes, ladies and gentlemen, the winner, Ric Flair and Tully Blanchard. But this was a non title match. So they changed the finish, changed the steps to get us out of there last because you think I'm joking. I. We had decided we might have to fight our way out. And we had some pretty big guys. [01:13:06] Speaker C: But I know you guys, you guys showed up at the TBS studio a few times. How many times did you guys go down there? Oh, that wasn't you. That wasn't you. [01:13:17] Speaker A: Some other guys that were a lot smarter than we were because they may have been the first guys to actually do it, but we did not go to that. But when, when that night ended, Jim Crockett Jr. Went down from the press box into locker room and said, okay, what's this Horseman shit all about? And they said. And he just went, well, Arn said the interview a couple of weeks ago, they're like the horse with the apocalypse. And those fans grabbed it, ran with it, and he said, well, I don't Know where it started? He said, but now, from now on, you are the Horseman. Because this shit's over. It's over. [01:13:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:59] Speaker A: So I take clean and I do not have any Horseman vitamins. And they didn't give me any Horseman T shirts or jacketsman hat. [01:14:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:08] Speaker A: But we help push along in our own weak way. I'm sure you talked to JJ about it. He goes, you guys got guts. Because nobody ever did anything heel like that. No fans ever did that before you started all that shit that night. And. And then J and Tully was talking about. He goes, he said, I. There's never been a time where suddenly the heel fans just stood up in a group and cheered for the bad guys. And then we. We realized we had to work our way down. And we met a lovely lady named Marie Brown, and she taught us how to get the front row seats. So we got the front row seats. And then that's why it was section D, because that's where we always were. And we just. [01:14:54] Speaker C: There's a great story about her in your book that I really appreciated. You could tell you had. So you say you could tell you had a lot of love and admiration for that lady. [01:15:06] Speaker A: Well, you know, she's the one that was probably a generation before me, and she's the one that told me the story that they used to have wrestling in Greensboro on top of the YMCA in downtown Greensboro. And there was a. There was a tag team called Bobby and George Becker. And Bobby Becker was the. Was the original guy whose name was Becker, and he ended up getting cancer, and he died in the ring. He took a slam and never got up. And then George Becker then grabs Weaver and then. There you go. But she was wonderful. She was really, really. She went out of her way to be kind to us, even though she knew we were, you know, we're there, we're just stirring it up. [01:15:47] Speaker C: So is there any way to. I mean, you know, my original question for you was gonna be, you know, is. Is who's the biggest heel in Jim Crockett Promotions history? And because we spent a lot of time talking about John Valentine. I know you're a big Brute Bernard fan. You know, you. You really have a lot of appreciation for telly. Do you almost have to break it out by decade? [01:16:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in the 70s, I would have to say, is Johnny Valentine. In the 80s, it probably was, you know, Ric Flair, I guess. I mean, Tully's not far behind. I heard a story that there was a couple of guys that were playing a video Game. And Tully said, hey, you want to play for a dollar? And he got beat their ass and took their money and talked shit to them and left. I mean, you know, I mean the. [01:16:41] Speaker C: Only reason I would question, the only reason I question Flair is that he, he, he, I mean he's kind of a in between guy, isn't he? I mean he's in the Carolinas at least. I mean. [01:16:55] Speaker A: Well, I mean I was. [01:16:57] Speaker C: You talking about Pure Heel, I think, I think it's Tully. Because there is no way you guys are the only guys that liked him. I mean, and I think there were other people that liked Rick, but, but nobody liked Tully, I don't think. [01:17:14] Speaker A: Well, I put Tully in my top 10 greatest wrestlers of all time and, and I, I just, there's something, there's something about him. You know, he went to what, West Texas State and he was a quarterback and he had a cockiness about him. It's really tough. [01:17:34] Speaker C: I did so much research on Texas and so much research on West Texas and you know, his dad, his dad was a big heel in West Texas under a mask as Zorro and Joe, Joe Blanchard. And you could just see a whole lot of that was passed on to Tully. You know. [01:17:56] Speaker A: I don't know. I tell you, Tully Blanchard there was, you know, it's such a shame that, you know, when he came, when he went to, when, when totally and Arn left and went to wwe, it kind of killed the whole four course horse horseman thing completely. And they never could recapture that. Right. But look, let me run. I gotta go. [01:18:15] Speaker C: I appreciate you, John. Thanks for your time today. [01:18:18] Speaker A: Okay, have fun. Appreciate it. Thanks. [01:18:20] Speaker C: Thank you. [01:18:22] Speaker B: Well, that was our first show talking about Jim Crockett and the Mid Atlantic territory and what a show it was. I mean, John Hitchcock was there in the 1970s at the time when Johnny Valentine and Wahoo McDaniel were tearing each other up. One guy we didn't talk about today was Sonny King. There were so many things that we, we didn't talk about in today's show that I want to get to in future episodes. John has so much to share and if you thought today was something, just hang on because he texted me after the show and said, oh, we didn't talk about this. And I said, yeah, and we didn't talk about this. And so we've got a lot of things to talk about in future shows. Let me know what you thought about today and I'm sure you enjoyed my show. And John, who was so much a part of the Four Horsemen formation in late 1985 and our conversation about Tully Blanchard, who I think was probably the biggest heel of at least the first part of the 1980s. So I hope you enjoyed that show today. Let me tell you about following me on social media. We have a Facebook group, it's the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group, rapidly growing. I'd love for you to come over and be a part of it that we do five, six posts a day about pro wrestling history, typically around things that happened on that day in pro wrestling history. But our members contribute a lot of posts as well. Hey, come to our YouTube channel. That's probably our fastest growing social media channel, is our YouTube channel. Because we've got all of our programs that we've done here in the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast on there. Plus we've got a lot of short clips on the channel as well. You can follow me on X, which is our biggest social media channel. Almost 20,000 people. Follow me at Tony Richards 4 and then at Substack. I publish a wrestling history newsletter every single day that's available for free. It's called the Daily Chronicle. I'm getting a lot of comments about some of the articles I've been posting recently. I just did the life and career of Buddy Lee. And I got a lot of great feedback on that. Buddy Lee was in the pro wrestling business. He was a performer. He ended up married to the fabulous Moolah. And she was Moolah the slave girl back then in the 1950s. And she was a second in Buddy's corner during his matches with people like Antonina Rocca. And then Buddy started promoting and he started a promotion company there in Columbia, South Carolina, where they were based. And he promoted South Carolina. He posted, promoted some on the west coast. And then he started doing concerts and booking music acts. And he totally shifted into Buddy Lee Attractions, where he was booking out music stars. And he built possibly the largest country music talent agency in the history of Nashville. And he also funded and was behind the outlaw promotion the UWA in 1976 with Lou Thes. And so it was a pretty. He had a pretty interesting life. And that was in the Daily Chronicle just a few days ago. So I publish articles in there. And so also I have a premium subscription for just $5 a month or $50 a year if you want to save 10 bucks. And you get my premium content with some of my pro wrestling research and articles that I publish. And that's just $5 a month. Coming up here on the show, we've got some other great stuff The Wrestling observer hall of Fame show is coming up. Brian Solomon is going to be here, Steve generally is going to be here, and Greg, Claire Klein, all people who have been on the show before. But they're all advocating for particular people for the Wrestling observer hall of Fame and I want to give them the opportunity to talk about that. Plus, I'm going to talk about the a couple of people that I'm really passionate about getting into the observer hall of Fame this year. One of them is Roy Welch, the father of Southern professional wrestling. And he should be in every hall of Fame there is, in my opinion. And I will talk about why on our hall of Fame show coming up. And I'm going to advocate for George Scott, who was the booker in Jim Crockett. We talked about a lot of that, how he bounced back as the book of the territory, booked the US Title tournament in the the Greensboro Coliseum and so and he was major league responsible for the WWF in 1984. He was the booker that attracted all the talent that came in and all the matches and angles that led up and he booked the first WrestleMania card. And so George Scott, and then there's a couple other people I definitely want to make comment on. So that's in our hall of Fame show and that's coming up here probably next week. So thank you so much for watching and listening. As always. I hope you enjoyed today's show on Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling 1975 and John Hitchcock along with me. Stay tuned. This is Tony Richards here at the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky reminding you that if you'll be a better neighbor, you'll have better neighbors. So long from the Bluegrass State. Bye bye everybody. [01:24:07] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.