Episode 32: WWWF Oct-Dec 1975 with Steve Gennerelli

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today, covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker B: And now here's your host, Tony Richards. Well, hello again, everybody. Welcome to another Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Coming to you live from the Richards ranch in Western Kentucky. I'm your host, Tony Richards, and greetings and salutations. Welcome back to another show. Today's going to be another wonderful program. Steve Giannarelli will be my guest today. And we'll be wrapping up the year of 1975 in the worldwide Wrestling Federation. So we're excited because we're on wrap up 75. And coming up soon, here we are in the middle of November. We're going to be into 76 as we go into 2026. Couple of things I want to talk about. I have been fortunate enough to have been invited on a couple of podcasts recently. I was just on the cup of Joe wrestling show with Joey Harris, just a fantastic young man and had a great conversation with him. And we talked about a number of things. We talked about my Wrestling observer hall of Fame votes, the people that I was advocating for in the in the hall of Fame, and a whole lot of stuff. And coming up, we're going to have the big Thanksgiving show here on our Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. And I'll be talking about the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, the guys that we were voting for in the hall of Fame. And the Wrestling observer hall of Fame has been announced. And next week on the podcast, I'm going to give you some comments about some of those people. Also, I am going to be on the Wifia Wfia podcast with Chris DeMarco. He's going to have another Hollywood Squares. I think we're going to be talking with Steve Kern. He's going to be on the show. And so in just a couple of days after you watch or listen to this podcast that should be available, and we've just recorded the brand new series for Briscoe and Bradshaw. I was on with John Layfield, Bradshaw and Jerry Briscoe, stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. And we're doing a series on Roy Welch. And Roy is the guy that I was really advocating for the Wrestling observer hall of Fame this year. So I'm doing his life and his career about the whole Welch family and so our first episode should be out by the time you hear and see this. And we're going to be Talking about the 1920s, the 1930s and the 1940s in that first episode of the biggest, largest and most powerful family in the territory era of professional wrestling. That's stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. Roy Welch show number one should be available. All right, now let's talk about what I'm working on. So I'm working on Dory Funk Senior, a book about his life called King of the Texas Death Matches. I'm also working on a Jim Barnett book, the wizard of Professional Wrestling. And those are scheduled to come out in 26 and 27 respectively. And also I just released my latest series on the 31 Great Territory era television wrestling announcers. And I had released these on social media every day in the month of October. And now I'm writing full length articles on our substack channel, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel substack. And I'm profiling each one of these 31 television wrestling announcers. And I moved Bob Cottle up to number three because he just recently passed away. And Bob was the host of Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling going back into the 50s. And just a prince of a fella and a great guy, nice even keel on the air. Didn't necessarily root openly for the baby faces or the heels. He just called the action. Worked with David Crockett on that show for years. And my condolences and my prayers for peace and comfort go out to the Cottle family. You know, Bob recently lost his longtime wife not long ago. And I was just thinking, I bet Bob doesn't hang around too much longer. But he lived to be 95 years old. Our good friends over at the Mid Atlantic Gateway website would go and visit him on his birthday and post great pictures of Bob and let us know how Bob was doing. And we all followed Bob from afar. But I wrote in my latest profile on Bob that if Gordon solely is the dean of professional wrestling announcers, Bob Cottle would have at least been a department chair of some kind of wrestling subject because the man was very, very good at what he did and very, very good in the Mid Atlantic territory. So, Bob, thank you so much for all your contributions. Thank you so much for providing me with such great announcing and commentary and entertainment over the years. And we just love you, Bob, and you've gone on to a better place that we will all join you at the, at that wonderful place one of these days. So Bob Cottle, 95, passed away just a Couple of days ago. Rest in peace, Bob. All right, let's get to our show today. Great conversation here at the Richards Ranch with Steve Giannarelli. And we're talking about the Worldwide Wrestling Federation 1975. Let's go to that conversation now. Hey everybody, welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. And we are covering the WWW F 1975. It's our fourth show on this federation this year. And back as always, to help me here at the Richards Ranch look at this amazing territory in pro wrestling is our special guest, Steve Giannarelli. Steve, welcome back to the program. [00:06:45] Speaker A: Tony. It's great to be here and thank you for including me. And you know, you know, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about is mid-70s WWF. We rarely get a chance to talk about it. Most people seem to prefer to talk about the better known 80s with Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and the crew. But this period in the mid-70s is probably my sweet spot or what makes me really the happiest. So I'm happy to talk about it with you. [00:07:15] Speaker B: I'm happy to be over here in this little corner of the world we have where we're talking about this stuff. And I think it's one of the things that makes the Time Tunnel unique is that we cover this particular era. And what's amazing to me, and this is what I really love about being involved in the history of pro wrestling is I like to go back to the beginnings of things and I like to see the roots of things taking shape that will eventually become what we know is going to happen. And we have some of that. This time period, this last three months of 75 is an amazing time. And as people who follow me very much know, breaking down the Territory era, this particular period starts another evolution in Pro Wrestling in 1975. Every five years we get a seismic shift in pro wrestling and we get one here in 75. And we'll talk about a whole lot of those things in these months of October, November, December of 75. So the other thing too is we're going to get into next year. We're going to get into 1976. And that's where you really come in from a fan standpoint. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Those are the first shows I really watched were the. It was like April of 76. But these shows that we're talking about today read up everything that I could get my hands on to learn about. You know, I consider myself an expert on Second Reign Bruno. And I've read up on First Reign Bruno. But this is, you know, a very interesting time for the Worldwide Wrestling Federation, which was, you know, probably the number one destination for wrestlers, because that's what the biggest payoffs were made in New York. The best paydays. I mean, there were Paul Bosch's, there were Vern Ganias, lots of great promoters that paid, but seemed like nowhere could they get paid as well as in New York City. [00:09:14] Speaker B: So In October of 1975, we'll set the scene for this a little bit. The Black Jacks are the WWWF Tag Team Champions, the World Tag Team Champions. And at the television taping on October 2nd, they have a tag team match with Gorilla, Monsoon and Haystack Calhoun, which the. That side of the ring must have good. They have all four of these guys to counterbalance the ring here because that's a lot of weight on one side with Gorilla and Haystack. But I wanted to include this because Gorilla is very active at this particular time in 75 in the WWF. And I know Brian Solomon's book just came out on Guerrilla Monsoon, and he was. He's always been a fascinating character to me. So I wanted to mention the. That Gorilla is very, very involved here in the ring. [00:10:09] Speaker A: That's a very unique tag team with him and a Stack Calhoun. I mean, in this time frame, they, they team up a few times together. But I, you know, in both of their long careers, I think this probably was the only time that they had ever done that. And, you know, as Brian's book has said, you know, Gorilla at this point was more of a. More of a focal point in the office, like running the TV shows, booking kind of the angles that would happen on TV with the. Especially with the tag teams and you know, the other major talents. It seemed like Bruno and Mr. McMahon, Vince's father, I think, kind of worked out his own programs. I think Bruno did his own programs and oftentimes, as we've said before, he was kind of like his own scout. He would go to Australia and go to Japan and see guys like Bobby Duncan and then invite them in. Toruchinaco is another one. And so, yeah, to see Monsoon and Calhoun together in one ring, as the old cliche goes, let's hope they reinforce that ring because any of the four participants could fall right through. [00:11:24] Speaker B: One of the things that I noticed about this time period, and we'll. We'll come up on a couple other very large wrestlers, is that Vince McMahon Sr. Liked big guys. I mean, he really liked the specialty match big guys. On the next night in North Attborough. It's Haystack and Gorilla defeating Baron Mikhail Secluna and Waldo Von Eric. Two falls to one. So it wasn't just a one time thing. I mean, they put these guys together in a couple of different cards. On October 3rd in Albany, New York, Ivan Putzky, who is working just underneath Bruno as a baby face during this time period. You know, one of the guys that usually occupies this position that isn't really seen here in this time period is getting arrest is Chief Jay Strongbow. And I don't know if you know this or not, Steve, but Chief J. Strongbow was sent to Georgia. And so Strongbow is in Georgia right now. And they did a little bit of a WWWF invasion ang in Georgia Championship Wrestling in 75. And so Chief J. Strongbow and Tony Guerrero and some of those guys were sent down to Georgia. So Ivan Putzky is getting an elevation here and he beats Blackjack Mulligan in Albany, in Philadelphia on the 4th. Yeah, go ahead. [00:12:50] Speaker A: No, I was just gonna, I was just gonna interject, you know, in Brian Solomon's award winning book. It hasn't won any awards yet, but. [00:12:57] Speaker B: He will, I'm sure it's gone to, it's going to. [00:13:01] Speaker A: He, he did mention that, and it was just mentioned briefly in the book that, you know, Monsoon, you know, he, he, he was kind of, you know, a very important guy behind the scenes. He did a lot of the booking and stuff and. But he did mention that there were, you know, occasionally there would be a wrestler that he didn't really particularly care for. And he did say in the book that actually Putsky was one of those wrestlers. And I think it was a case of Putsky was extremely over with the audience, but he did seem to put forth very little effort in his matches. I mean, he was the kind of a guy, he could grab a, grab a headlock on you and hold it and, or hold you on the mat for five or six minutes. And I noticed, I think this match with Mulligan went like, may, like 20 minutes or so. I know he had another match with the Arion that went well over 20 minutes and that must have been a grueling match to watch because, you know, he was much better in smaller doses. I mean, you know, and seeing him do the polish hammer on someone and get the win, that kept him strong, that kept him over, but he really wasn't that good at making his opponents look too good, so. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you brought that up because coming up in a little bit here on the show, I'M going to relate a story about that involving Bugsy McGraw in Philadelphia. On the fourth, Ivan Putzky beat Waldo Von Erich and Bobo Brazil was in the main event. He defeated Spiros Arion. So you got these heels that have been in programs with Bruno all year, like Waldo and Spiros, and they're getting beat at the top of the card by these baby faces. Bobo is kind of a visiting baby face, but he's trying to get over Putzky and some of these other baby faces just underneath Bruno. [00:14:55] Speaker A: Well, with Bobo, for the fans, the younger fans that may not know, he was kind of like a legendary figure from the 60s, in the 60s WWF, he had been a main eventer pretty much everywhere. I know in the 70s. I think Bobo more focused on the Detroit promotion is his longtime rival with the chic. But he would come into the WWF periodically. This time he. I think he lasts until maybe early 77, but I'm sure he's going back to Detroit periodically too. But he was always a box office in the Northeast, especially in Baltimore, Washington, D.C. urban areas, and really appealing to the fans in those areas. But. But everybody loved Bobo Brazil and he was such a magnificent athlete, huge athlete. And it's a shame that people are of our generation or the younger generation is not even knowing who he is or don't remember him, but he was a very important figure in the history of wrestling. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Yeah, he had been in Detroit, he had been in Georgia. He'd been in the Tennessee territory. He'd been in a lot of. He traveled. He was kind of. He was a little bit like Andre. He moved around from territory to territory and he'd work at the top of the card and he'd just be there for a couple of weeks and then move on to somewhere else. I'd love to see Bobo's booking book. You know, if anybody ever had that, you know, that would be phenomenal to see all the things that he wrote down for his schedule. [00:16:32] Speaker A: I remember one of the very first wrestling magazines I ever got. I'm trying to think. I think it must have been Ring Wrestling, because I remember it was really well written. But they had a long article that was all it was, was describing the match between him and Jack Briscoe for the NWA title. And it was like a long article, like three or four pages, but it described the whole match, everything that happened. And it was. It was a scientific match, obviously, and two baby faces. But you, from reading that article, I really thought that, you know, Bobo was going to win the title and he was just held in such high regard. And because he could be, he could hang in there with anybody. You know, there's footage on YouTube of him in a battle royal against Andre, where they're the last two in. So whether it's Andre, Jack Briscoe tag teaming with Bruno, he's just very well regarded and extremely respected. [00:17:32] Speaker B: On the fourth in Boston, Bruno Sammartino, who is of course the WWWF champion, defeated George the Animal Steel. And so George Steele, also one of those wrestlers who worked a lot in Detroit, is been in here in 75. And I think this is wrapping up their program for the year. But in Boston, San Martino goes over the Animal. It's also on October 4th. And this is going to play into all the events that are going to happen in these three months in 75. October 4th is the date of the plane crash in North Carolina, in Wilmington, North Carolina. That takes Johnny Valentine out of the business. It puts Ric Flair on the shelf for three months. David Crockett was involved. And so this plane crash in North Carolina is going to have reverberations throughout several territories. And so it's going to play into a lot of what we talk about today because it's going to involve Blackjack Mulligan. And on the 6th in Landover, Maryland, the Black Jacks beat Bruno Sammartino and Bobo Brazil. So you were just talking about Bobo. Now here's two of the biggest baby faces of the 1970s on one side of the ring and the Black Jacks, who are the champions on the other side. And since they defeated them, I'm assuming someone did the job here. Do you know who that was, Steve? [00:19:03] Speaker A: I would have to imagine it was probably like a Count out type thing. [00:19:10] Speaker B: On the 7th in Philadelphia at a television taping, I bring this one up for this particular note. The Black Jacks, the champions, are against Tom Staton and a young wrestler named Randy Poffo. That's at the television taping in Philadelphia on October 7th. And so here, I think this is probably the first appearance of Randy Savage in the WWWF back then. [00:19:37] Speaker A: And you know, Tony and I were talking before the show. I mean, this blew my mind. I mean, people had told me before, oh, yeah, he had worked with WWF a long time, and I had never really seen any proof of that, but I did see it in Tony's notes. I saw it on the wwe, Graham Cawthorn's website there, Richard Land's website. And so he was there. Luelle Bano put the boots to him as well. And you know, Just to think the incredible journey that Randy Savage took to go from a minor league baseball player to, you know, being the son of a longtime active wrestler brother of Lanny. And they go through this long, long route. But 10 years later, they arrive back in New York and Randy becomes this humongous star. And, you know, he's working with Bruno Sammartino in some shows in 86. And of course, Lanny's along for the ride too. And, you know, just incredible. I mean, to think that Randy Savage, very early in his career is in New York doing jobs just like anybody else had to do on their way up. [00:20:49] Speaker B: So it's very well to give even more background. In 1975, Angelo Poffo and Lanny Poffo had been the NWA World Tag Team Champions in the Sheiks territory in Detroit. They had also worked the Bruiser territory in the wwa. And right now at this particular time, they are in Amarillo, Texas, working in West Texas. And Randy is out there as well, working as Jim Pride. And, and I just got to think for most of 75, Randy is thinking, well, my dad and my brother are working and they're this over. I mean, they were over, they, they were working the top of the cards and now they're working heel and Amarillo and Randy's doing jobs on television and around the territory is Jim Pride. He's probably thinking, when am I ever going to get a shot at something? Little, little knowing to him of what his career would be. So it's also a thing to me of a mindset of if you're really into something and you're really dedicated, things come to you. If you're patient and you, you know, I mean, they've got so many interesting things that happen throughout the 70s and the 80s before he gets back there 10 years later. But it's, he's one of my favorite characters of all wrestling. So I, I that stuck out to me that he was here doing this TV match. [00:22:18] Speaker A: That's great information, Tony, and thanks for filling me in on that. I really appreciate that. [00:22:23] Speaker B: Well, I feel like this piece of information probably gonna make it on some other podcasts, so I want to bring that up. On 8 October, Hamburg, Pennsylvania, television taping the Black Jacks beat Gorilla and ivan Putzky, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Bruno, another one of his 75 opponents in the main event in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, defeated Waldo von Erich for the title. I always like to mention the girls in Baltimore, Maryland on the 11th, Joyce Grable, who's working the territory as a single, is tagged up here with Vicki Williams. They beat Kitty Adams and Donna Christian Ello, another 1970s female wrestler, two falls to one. And in the main event, Bobo Brazil, Dominic Denucci and Pat Barrett defeated Albano and the Black Jacks three falls to one fall. In a three out of five falls match, Bruno Sammartino defeated Waldo Von Eric for the WWF title. So they were really fond, every now and then, like every month or so in one of these critical towns, they'd throw in that three out of five falls tag team match, which I always thought was very interesting. And, and it changed things up a little. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that was. That would soon become like a big deal, like in some of their bigger buildings, like msg, the Spectrum, probably Landover, and they, they like to feature Andre in a lot of those matches. And as we got into, you know, the 80s with the Samoans and, and a lot of the 80s stars, that match, it seemed like it was on every MSG card, like Andre and a couple of baby faces against the Samoans and another heel and, but, but here, like you say, they're doing it here in the mid-70s. I mean, the three out of five matches, so unique because that's one match you would never see on TV. I mean, you would barely see a two out of three falls match on TV, even in those days. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Madison Square Garden on October 13th in New York City. And I think this is kind of must be the first part of the effects of this plane crash in North Carolina, because George Scott, the booker, or Jim Crockett Jr. Or somebody is on the phone to New York and they're asking if they can have Blackjack Mulligan, because we know blackjack leaves, which is why their tag team championship run doesn't last any longer than it does. And here we see the appearance of Louis Sirdan, who tags with Tony Parisi to beat Spiros Arion and Waldo Van Erich. And for those of you who don't know, Louis Cerdan and I didn't know, I'll be honest with you, I had to look it up because I'm like, Louis Sirdan, like, who is. Who is that? You know, and so I had to do a little research and I find out it's Canadian Gino Brito. [00:25:21] Speaker A: That's right. And there was kind of like a Italian connection with guys like Bruno Denucci, Dino Bravo, Sir Dan Parisi. They had this all Italian group and they were, they were big in New York, but they were big in, like Montreal as well. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of WWF fans, John McAdam being one. I have another friend that grew up in Scranton, Penn, went to a lot of the shows and they swear to me that Parisi and Sir Dan were probably the worst tag team of the 70s, or maybe even the 80s too. I, I always like to say the worst WWF team was either the Strongbows with Jewel Strongbow or the Moondogs in the early 80s. But Parisi and Sir Dan had few supporters or fans, I would say. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Also on this Madison Square Garden card. Another program that Bruno was involved in in 1975 was the return of Ivan Koloff. And in this match it was declared a no contest because both guys were bleeding excessively. So always a rough and tough match with Bruno and Ivan. Of course, Ivan being a former champion also added heat to the match, I'm sure. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that was one of those matches where they had a pull apart at the end. They were both, like I said, both leading and then all the good guys from the back came and separated them and it was like a three match series that they had at the guard and that ended with a cage match. But, but you know, you know, again, I wasn't around in 75 to really witness this, but I mean just knowing that, that Koloff had the gravitas of coming off the title win over Bruno in 71, I'm sure the fans were in a panic state thinking, okay, he's going to beat Bruno again. I mean people were worried like that and before you know it, we haven't mentioned him yet. But Billy Graham is going to be coming in soon as part of that title away from the Carolinas. So we'll have to talk a lot about Billy Graham when he arrives. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Gorilla Monsoon, Ivan Putzky and Haystack Calhoun defeated Bugsy McGraw and the Black Jacks on that same Madison Square Garden card. And so I've got Ian Douglas's book about Bugsy McGraw. I'm going to hold it up for our video watchers. But the Brute, the autobiography of Bugs and McGraw. And the Brute was his identity in Canada and some other territories before he just went to the crazy wacko Bugsy McGraw and he wasn't that crazy wacko guy here in 75 in the WWW. If he was a very rough and tough, serious heel type guy. And I wanted to relate and this is some interesting stuff here about how he got there in Ian Douglas book. Ian's going to be on the show coming up here soon. I've just got to work out some dates with him. But it says when I was in Japan with Gorilla Monsoon. He kept prodding me to come to New York. The only things that held me back from making a move were Gorilla's demeanor, which I took to be condescending and rude, and also the fact that I'd been having such tremendous success in Vancouver now, since the money as a main eventer for Shire wasn't what I envisioned it to be, there was nothing holding me back from seeing if pastures in New York would be greener. By the way, Bugsy's in San Francisco territory when this is taking place, he says. I called Monsoon and I said, hey, Gorilla, I'd like to come to New York if there's any room for me there. What's wrong? Gorilla asked sarcastically. Are you starving? No, not really. I'm just looking to make a move. So Gorilla went to Vince McMahon Sr. Who called up Roy Shire to hash things out with him, and the next time Roy saw me in the locker room, he seemed annoyed by my abrupt departure. He said, yeah, New York probably is a better fit for you. Roy uttered sarcastically. Guys don't have to work very hard to get over with fans there. You'll fit right in. Shire's comments couldn't sour my attitude toward him any further because my opinion of him was already in the toilet. He was a rude, belligerent, annoying prick, and despite his payoffs generally being decent, the way he would toss paychecks to his wrestlers and act like he couldn't care less about us really rubbed me the wrong way. I was so frustrated and irritated with Shire and so livid about working on top of the territory and not making any more money that usually came with main event positions that I told Lonnie, main man, I'm so pissed at Shire. I'm just going to beat the crap out of him. Said, you got to do it in San Jose. That's the next night he'll be in the dressing room with us. You're right. I'm going to slap him right upside his head. The thing is, if I do this, you need to hold the other guys back in case they try to help him. You got it, Lonnie said. I can handle those guys. Usually, Shire would come to the shows in San Jose because it was a major city, but to my great disappointment, he didn't show up that night. Well, it's probably for the best, Lonnie said after we realized Shire wouldn't be there if you kicked his ass, the NWA would probably blackball you for sure. There's no way McMahon would bring you to New York if You did that. Lonnie was right. Looking back, I think it was a blessing because beating up a promoter probably would have been the surest way to put my wrestling career on a permanent hiatus. I wanted to share, too. Anyway, they're going to bring him in here. He's. He. They're told that he's told that they're going to bring him in, in a program with Bruno, and he's going to be on top working with Bruno. And then one night, Gorilla comes to him. And also he was supposed to. The Mongolian Stomper, who has a great year in 75, was supposed to come in and work with Bruno as well. But the Stomper no showed, or something came up, or for whatever reason, he canceled. And I always wondered why the Mongolian Stomper, who was on top in all these territories, never really worked in the Northeast. He never really worked in the wwwf. And here it says he was supposed to. But the reason he didn't come is the reason why Bugsy got to go. And when he gets there, first thing McMahon wants to do is tell him, you can't use the brute, we're gonna have to change your name. And he's like, well, I'm gonna be on top. I'm gonna be working with Bruno, I'm gonna be making a lot of money. So what the heck, you know, he goes, okay. And then immediately McMahon Sr. Who often did, named him after an Irish guy. So he names him. We're going to call you McGraw. You're going to be McGraw, you're going to be Bugsy McGraw. And so that's how he kind of changed his name. But there was a, there was a part, if I can find it, where to your point earlier, about. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Putzky. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Putzky, but I'll find it while we, while we move on. I was just thinking Here on the 15th, October 15th, in Bangor, Maine, Dominic Denucci and Pat Barrett defeated Lou Albano and Baron, Mikhail Secluna. And of course, the promoter in Bangor in Maine is Vince McMahon Jr. And I'm sure he's got to be on the phone with somebody going, this is the match you guys send me to promote in Banger. Like, I've got Denucci and Barrett on top, but they got to work with lou and Baron McKell. Secluder. [00:33:06] Speaker A: That sounds almost like, like somebody didn't show up or they had a fill in as possible. [00:33:15] Speaker B: I just. So he says, a month or two after my match with Bruno, this is McGraw again. The champ sought me out inside the Philadelphia Civil center and said, you're not going to have to leave the territory now. He just got there. Bugsy did. And so outside the Philadelphia Civic center, he says, you got to get out of here. This was a huge surprise to me because I'd only been there three months. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Why? [00:33:36] Speaker B: I just got here. I asked Vince if I could work a long program with you, and he doesn't want to do it. So you need to leave and come back later and work a program with me. I think I can send you to Charlotte to work for Jim Crockett. The money in New York was pretty good, but it wasn't at all at the level I thought it would be. Frankly, I thought I was worth a whole lot more than I'd been getting. If that's what you want me to do, Bruno, I'll do it. I don't know. I know if I work a program with you, I'll make plenty of money. I knew it was a good idea for me to be on Bruno's good side because the champ took care of the people he liked. Dominic Denucci seemed to wrestle for the WWW F forever, and he lived in Pittsburgh near Bruno, as opposed to living closer to New York. Bruno loved Dominic and was able to use his influence in the company to keep him employed. Denucci's job security was as stable as could be with Bruno looking out for him. So he would primarily be used to groom people on the undercard to prepare them to wrestle against Bruno. So Bruno went off to Vince and told him I wanted to leave and advised him to send me to Charlotte. According to Bruno's later report, Vince's response was, no, he can't leave. He just got here. Then make him some money. Bruno said at the time, the performers were essentially working on a salary, even if it was in an unofficial sense. No matter how many times you worked or what the shows drew, the checks averaged out to about the same every week. For me, I made about $800 a week. The week after Bruno spoke to Vince, my PayCheck increased to $1,300 a week and stayed there for the rest of my time in the wwf. When Bruno held Vince's feet to the fire, Vince decided he would rather increase my weekly pay by more than 50% than let me go off to Charlotte. I was always grateful to Bruno for that gesture. There aren't many guys in the business who would look out for their fellow performers like that. [00:35:30] Speaker A: So that's a great story, and that's a story I've never heard, and I really appreciate you sharing that and again, not to talk about Brian's book all day, but it's interesting that when he was talking about the eventual sale of the WWF from the older Vins to younger Vince, and. And there was that brief, brief period where there was, like, a little percentage that the elder Vince really didn't know what to do with. This is before he knew that Vince Jr. Wanted the whole thing, but before that, he wanted to sell a portion to Buddy Rogers. And I think part of that was, I think by the end of Bruno's reign, I think Mr. McMahon was completely fed up with Bruno and how demanding he was. I mean, again, he did it for the boys, he did it for himself. He did it for the betterment of the promotion, I think. But Mr. McMahon just saw it as, well, I'm the boss, and this guy's, like, making me do what I don't want to do. And that's why he ended up getting Backlin, who was a pliable young guy who wouldn't make any demands, he wouldn't make any noise. And. But your story is tremendous, and I really appreciate hearing that, because I've never heard that before. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Well, the other story, I won't go through reading the book, but the other story was about Putzky, was that he was in at a television taping or one of the towns that Monsoon was running. And Monsoon comes in the locker room, he goes, it's you and Putzky tonight. And Bugsy McGraw goes, oh, my God, I gotta work with Ivan Putzky. He goes, he doesn't sell for anybody. And I'm gonna look terrible because I need somebody that's going to sell for me because I'm not that great a worker or whatever, and I need somebody to sell my heel moves. And Putzky doesn't sell anything, so I want to work with somebody else. And Monsoon goes, all right, I'll take care of it. And so McGraw thinks gorilla is going to go book another match, right? He goes away, and he comes back in a few minutes. He goes, I took care of it. He goes, what? How did you take care of it? Who am I working with? He goes, it's you and Putzky tonight. He goes, I thought you were going to take care of it. He said, I did. I went and told Putzky, if he didn't sell for you, you were going to kick him in the nuts. [00:37:47] Speaker A: And wrestling. [00:37:49] Speaker B: And so McGraw said, It was the best match I had. Like, Putzky went out there and, like, sewed like crazy for me because he was afraid I was going to kick him in the, in the family jewels, you know, so, you know, you know, it's funny. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Gorilla Monsoon didn't care for Pussky, I guess just because of his work ethic or what have you. But from what I've Learned, I guess Mr. McMahon and even Vince too, they really liked Putsky because he was box office. He could go to like towns like my town, Binghamton and pretty much sell out the place or draw a nice house. And when his young son there, Scott Putsky was a up and coming college football player, they would even send him home to Texas on the weekends so he could see the Friday Night Lights games and see his son play football. So it's funny how you know McMahon, the both McMahon's thought of him in one way and Monsoon thought about him in a different way. [00:38:45] Speaker B: On October 25th in Boston, superstar Billy Graham and Spiros Arion defeated Bruno Sammartino and Dominic Denucci. Two falls to one haystack Calhoun, Tony Parisi and Louis Sirdan defeated Baron McHale, Secluda and the Black Jacks. And here's another big guy and he's only here in this one instance. In Boston, Man Mountain Mike defeated Pat Barrett. So I've just. McMahon likes the big, big, big dudes, you know, to come in. [00:39:15] Speaker A: It's funny, John McCadam and I have been reviewing the mid-80s and the Saturday night main event as that became a popular thing on NBC. And those early, early shows of that they're featuring Andre teaming with Hogan and they're going against Stud and Bundy. And you know, and I know like yourself, you're a big Mid Atlantic guy and, and you're used to more like this good wrestling like Ric Flair against a good challenger like a Ricky Steamboat or a Great Valentine. And WWF I guess eventually won the war over Jim Crockett Promotions. But it just seemed like the general public who maybe didn't know anything about what's good wrestling or bad wrestling, they just like the fact that you're seeing these giant people that you would never see anywhere else go against each other in these matches. They didn't understand the refinement or the, the, you know, the benefit of seeing like a Ric Flair against a Greg Valentine or Ricky Steamboat. You know, they weren't, they weren't, they didn't have like that high quality or didn't appreciate the high quality wrestling, I guess. [00:40:21] Speaker B: Well again, you know, I think it's. You bring up a fantastic point, Steve. I think what we, we sometimes forget is that the territories were Tailored to the people who live there. But when you are going to take it across the country where you have to have a product that appeals to a little section of every demographic and psychographic, the way to do that is what they did was to take these larger than life personalities that are also larger than life in stature and in body and put them in a ring and let them play a demolition derby with each other. And that's, you know, that's what people came to know as wrestling as the product across America. No, to somebody that grew up in the Tennessee territory or the Carolinas or Georgia, it wasn't the wrestling we were used to. We were look used to arm drags, hammer locks, headlocks, takedowns. And even Jerry Briscoe told me that when they got to the WWF in 1984, after they made their deal with Vince to sell Georgia, that guerrilla monsoon pulled him aside and said, you guys sell too much. Like you're flying all over the ring for these guys. Don't do that. We want you to just go over them. You're the baby faces, just run over them, you know, just be dominant, you know, we don't, we don't do all that selling up here, you know. And so it was just a, it's just a different approach, you know, and, and as history proved for the masses, it was the right approach. [00:42:06] Speaker A: And to your point, that brief run that superstar Billy Graham made in the Carolinas after the terrible plane crash, I've heard people tell me who are fans of that area have said that, well, superstar Billy Graham really didn't get over in the Carolinas, but I think it was because of the opposite of what you just said. Rather than try to have a good match, a give and take matches because when that was what they were used to, he, he was working the WWF style of I'm going to pound you into the ground, I'm going to make myself look good, I'm not going to make my opponent look good. And that didn't work in the Carolinas. That's why he didn't get over. [00:42:43] Speaker B: Well, it didn't happen. It didn't get over in St. Louis, you know, because Vince McMahon Sr. Sent Billy Graham to St. Louis to work before he was going to put the title on him. And he had a main event match with Harley Race and the fans almost like ran him out of the building like right this, this isn't. No, this isn't St. Louis wrestling. [00:43:03] Speaker A: So yeah, Billy, Billy was in a cheap heat and stuff like pulling a rope out of his trunks and choking his opponent. I mean, St. Louis, they were used to wrestling as a sport. Even the bad guys had technical skills and they weren't just like guys pulling out ropes or pulling out weapons. [00:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And Mushnik was not a cheap heat kind of. That wasn't his, wasn't his philosophy and that's another reason. And he didn't like gimmicks, you know, And Superstar was a over the top, colorful, made for television type gimmick and got cheap heat in a lot of cases. And honestly, Sam didn't book Dusty Rhodes in St. Louis for that reason because Dusty was a seven or eight minute brawling type, you know, a lot of outside the ring type stuff. And it just didn't go over with Sam and it didn't fit. St. Louis on October 28th in Philadelphia at the TV taping. It's kind of notable because there's a tag team match here where we see the debut of Kevin Sullivan in the www F teamed up with Haystack Calhoun defeating Pete Reeves and Baron Secluna who are obviously there to put the those guys over. But Haystack and Kevin teaming together as Sullivan early in his career after having a little run in Florida and some other territories, shows up here in New York. And he often. I've heard and seen and shoot interviews. Kevin fondly talks about this time being from the Northeast, going up to the wwe. [00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean he, I mean he did talk on one of his shoot interviews about being a fan at Boston Garden and seeing like Spiro Sarion came out. And I think he was there the night that the Sheikh had far had annihilated Spiros Arion, who at the time was like Bruno's number two baby face underneath him. And, and I remember Kevin Sullivan from this time frame because I became a fan in 76 and he was wrestling there. And like at the MSG shows, he would oftentimes wrestle in the prelim matches. Like he would wrestle maybe a scientific match with Manny Soto or Pete Sanchez. And he was in that mix and he'd oftentimes, I know he wrestled Brody at MSG and put him over. So he was a very valuable guy. I'm sure you probably heard too that there was one day, apparently they were all there together maybe at a TV taping and Mr. McMahon was there with his big book, his big ledger with the schedule in it, and he asked him, can I, can I look at this? I'd like to see what this is about. And, and then Mr. McMahon let him look at the ledger and Told him, this is how we plan things. This is how we book the promotion months in advance. And. And he knew, you know, who would be wrestling at MSG in six months or maybe a year from now. I mean, that's how organized it was in those days. [00:45:59] Speaker B: On October 29th in Hamburg, Pennsylvania, it's a television taping. And Bruno works twice. So he works for the television taping, defeating Baron Mikhail Secluda for the WWW title. And then in a dark match, he works again, beating Spiros Arion for the WWWF title. So Bruno works twice here, once to draw the house for the TV taping that doesn't make television. And then the other working for the camera, defeating the longtime veteran Baron McHale. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah, Baron McKell was a guy he really enjoyed working with. Baron was another guy that lived in Pittsburgh and they were friends going back a long, long way. And. And he was, you know, he stayed in the WWF until I think the. Maybe 83 sometimes, and then. And then retired. And thanks to Davy o', Hannon, who you were recently on a show with, Davey Ohanan, got him a job delivering, driving the truck for New York Times, delivering newspapers to certain places and got him a pension or got him some pay, which really helped. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah, Davey's going to be on the show coming up here pretty soon. He and I have been talking, and so he's going to be on the Time Tunnel show. And I really want to dive into this time period here that we're talking about November. Let's get to the month of November. Philadelphia. Haystack Calhoun, Lewis, Sir Dan and Tony Parisi beat Freddie Blassi, Lou Albano and Blackjack Mulligan. And when you were on the hall of Fame show here on the Time Tunnel, this is what I'm talking about. So we were talking about the grand wizard. And I was telling you, in my youth, in 1975, I was 12, and I was buying every wrestling magazine I could get my hands on at our local drugstore. [00:47:50] Speaker A: As did I. [00:47:51] Speaker B: And there's, you know, the three wise men, managers, Freddie Blassie, Lou Albano. Freddie Blassie always seemed like to me, a guy who could defend himself. He could always get in the ring. And Here he is, November 1, 1975, in the ring. Lou Albano's in the ring, and they're teaming with Blackjack Mulligan, who's not in the ring, the grand wizard, because I always looked at. And he's the only guy not in the Wrestling observer hall of Fame, which is crazy. I hope he really gets in this year, who is somebody that Steve was advocating for on our show. And this is the reason why, because I always thought Lou and Freddy could fight. And the grand wizard was just an evil, evil guy who was manipulating these champions. You know, he always usually had the champion or somebody who was contending for the championship. And he was a master manipulator, which always made me seem. Always got more heat with me because it just didn't seem like he could get in the ring, if that makes sense. [00:48:50] Speaker A: No, it does make sense. And. And I think this match may be the last time he got into a ring until he wrestled Albano a couple of times in 1985. But. But there is a. There is a moment and, you know, hopefully you and I are doing this together. Maybe in 1977, there is a moment. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Where. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Blassie and Albano, during a TV taping, they came to the ring and they issued an open challenge to Dusty. Froze and Dusty Rhodes came out and. And, you know, annihilated Albano and annihilated Blassie. But Blassie couldn't really take bumps, so he just kind of had to fall out of the ring. But, yeah, those were the days. Great heel managers, you had to love them. [00:49:35] Speaker B: I just. I just saw on my ex feed there's a fellow on there who collects wrestling magazines, and he had a wrestling magazine from the 60s with Freddie Blassie on the COVID with this supermodel of that time that he was dating. And I just. People forget what a big deal Freddie Blassie was. I mean, he was just a big, big deal in the 1960s. He. And then, you know, like you say, it's a little Sad that by 85 he's just kind of struggling to get out of the ring. And that he was even in the ring is a little bit sad to me. [00:50:11] Speaker A: He was just a beloved, beloved figure, though. [00:50:13] Speaker B: I mean, absolutely. [00:50:15] Speaker A: Vince. Vince thought of him as like a father figure. And. And he was well cared for in those last, you know, 15, 20 years of his life. Stayed on the payroll. They took care of him. He participated in a lot of events. I know he was. He would dress up as Santa Claus like a toys for tots, and he'd visit the veterans and stuff. So he was a very wonderful guy. I mean, tried to do some charitable acts and things. And he was much more than just the irascible heel that we remember him for being. [00:50:48] Speaker B: He worked in the mailroom, didn't he? In later years? [00:50:51] Speaker A: That too. That too, yeah. [00:50:53] Speaker B: In Maine, we get a couple of main events. In Portland, Ivan Putsky defeated Bugsy McGraw. And in Bangor, they get a better match this month. Ivan Putzky and Spiros Arion on top. Also interesting here in November, they are running in Queens, New York, at the old Sunnyside Garden, which was a big arena that ran a lot of historic matches in the 50s and the 60s. Baron Mikhail Secluna and the Black Jacks defeated Haystack Calhoun, Francisco Flores and Dominic denucci by two falls to one. And Davey o' Hannon was on this card, too. Mark Tendler defeated Davey Ohannon by disqualification. Which is one of the things I'm going to ask Davey Ohannon when I get him on the program. Like, what was it like to go to a historic place? Like, for somebody who grew up in that northeast area, the Sunnyside Garden was a. Was a cathedral, you know? [00:51:49] Speaker A: Oh, it was. Yeah, I think. And I think it was coming to a close, too. I think it was only open for maybe another three or four years after this. [00:51:58] Speaker B: Now, this is interesting. So on November 7th, Blackjack Mulligan debuts in Jim Crockett Promotions in Richmond, Virginia, in a tag match with Steve strong to beat Mr. Wrestling, Tim woods and Johnny Weaver. Then on the 8th, the WWWF runs a show in Charlottesville, Virginia, which is right in the northern edge of the Jim Crockett territory, which I thought was interesting. And guess who's on top? The Blackjacks are on top. So Blackjack works in Virginia with Lanza against Monsoon and Denucci. And then on the 9th, November 9th, they have this huge tournament in Greensboro because Johnny Valentine was in the plane crash. He was the NWA US Champion. So the US Championship is vacant. This is one of the reasons why right here that I voted for George Scott for the observer hall of Fame this year because he lost his two top heels in Jim Crockett Promotions in October. In November, he's booking a US Title tournament in Greensboro, where Blackjack Mulligan beat Ken Patera in the quarterfinals. Then Blackjack Mulligan loses to Dusty Rhodes in the semifinals. And then in the finals, Terry Funk goes over Paul Jones for the US Title in Greensboro. What a way to recover. I mean, you lose your heels in October, and then in November, you've got all these names in Greensboro in a tournament you had no idea that you were going to have to book. [00:53:40] Speaker A: And he books the guy who would win the NWA title in a month. I mean, that shows you that he was right on top of things. And it just. I was going to say something else about it. But it popped out of my head. I'm sorry. [00:53:54] Speaker B: Well, I was just going to say that Blackjack goes back just a little bit here in Landover, Maryland on the 10th. He goes back. So he's, he's in the WWF. He goes to Jim Crockett, he comes back to the wwf, he's in the Greensboro tournament. Then he comes back on the 10th to be in the main event against Bruno Sammartino for the WWF title. So it's almost like Vince Senior is going, yeah, you can go on down to Crockett and help them out. But before you go, we go get some mileage out of you here with Bruno. [00:54:28] Speaker A: No, that makes sense. And again, fans may forget they're thinking about the 80s when these promotions were at each other's throats. We're still in the era of cooperation where I'm sure Vince McMahon and Jim Crockett Sr. Were talking on the phone quite frequently and helping each other and talking about, hey, can I use this talent? Or what do you think about that talent? And there was a given and a take. I remember what I was going to tell you was you were extolling the virtue of George Scott and John McCabe and I were talking about. We just did a review of the Wrestling Classic, which was their first pay per View in 1985, and George Scott's booking that. And it's, it's a really interesting format because you had a lot of these great workers in the wwf like your Dynamite kids and Davey Boy Smith and Ricky Steamboat and, and all these high caliber workers. But George Scott came up with such creative and unique finishes to these matches, especially in the first round when you had all these guys you had to eliminate quickly. But he did such a great job in booking that I can see why you're really supporting him to make the hall of Fame finally. I remember when he passed away, he lived here in Tampa, where I live, and they did a feature on the local news about him. They interviewed his wife and talked about him. And he was a very successful businessman besides wrestling. He owned a bunch of apartments here on some different businesses and was really well respected in the Tampa community. But what he did for wrestling is really under undervalued. I mean, he accomplished a lot for so many different promotions. And I think that you being such. [00:56:20] Speaker B: A. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Really enthusiastic supporter of him getting in the hall of Fame, I hope that makes a difference. [00:56:27] Speaker B: I don't know that he'll get in this year, but at least I wanted to start the ball rolling and I got such a nice note from his son. Yeah. Thanking me for bringing his name up and keeping him out there. And I would give lots of money, I won't say how much, but I would give lots of money for George Scott's finished book. You know, if there were a book, if there was a book out there where George kept up with the finishes that he booked, I would give a lot of money for that book. Just to see all those creative finishes that he booked over those periods. And the thing about it is somebody like me and you, we're stopping down to take a look at this particular year in depth. Most people aren't going to do that. Right. They're going to keep their recency bias of George Scott's last years, which was not good. But if you go back and you really analyze and look at what he did, he's hall of fame worthy, especially in the non wrestler category for, for his booking. [00:57:29] Speaker A: I just love what he did for the expansion era wwf. I mean, you know, we talk about. Jim Barnett brought a lot to the table for Vince and, and Pat Patterson was there. He became the booker later. He did a great job. But George Scott to me is somebody who deserves a lot more credit because you have the best talent in the world for like a two, two year period. He's booking it from 84 to 86 and he had a lot of moving parts. You had like one of the biggest rosters of all time at that time. But he kept it interesting, he kept it engaging and people didn't lose interest. [00:58:06] Speaker B: Well, you know, we stopped down and talked a lot about that in my Jim Barnett series on Briscoe and Bradshaw. And just to recount that just for a minute, if you think about the team that Vince McMahon put together in 1983 and 84 to do the national expansion. He got George Scott, who was a master talent manager who had all of these relationships and he was a very creative booker. He got Jim Barnett to help him with his television relationships and expanding his television network. He got Jerry Briscoe who knew, who knew every. I mean, if you were going to penetrate the south, you needed somebody that knew all the building managers there who had been in those buildings for years and knew how to contact and get shows booked because they weren't excited about the WWF coming to the. They wanted championship wrestling from Florida and Georgia, Championship Wrestling and Jim Crockett Promotions. But Jerry Briscoe goes in and says, trust me, this is going to bring people through the doors. And I mean, Vince just did a masterful job of putting a team together to accomplish what he did. [00:59:15] Speaker A: He even had. He even had Red Bastine doing the Jerry Briscoe role on the west coast and said Red Bastine was familiar with the West Coast. [00:59:22] Speaker B: Absolutely. And he would hire guys later on that would take it to even another level, but he just did a great job. November 15th in Baltimore. Arnold Scholin. I gotta ask Davey O' Hannah about this. He worked this match with Arnold Scholin where Skolin went over. Gorilla Monsoon beat Baron, Mikhail Secluna. Ivan Koloff beat Pat Barrett. And in the main event was semi main event. Spiros Arion defeated Bobo Brazil by count out. And then Bruno Sammartino again defeated one of the Black Jacks. This time it's Lanza for the WWWF title. And it's like McMahon knows the black Jacks are going to be over with this really short run. How do I get the most out of them? So I'm going to put them in main events and Bruno's going to go over on them, which doesn't take a lot of steam off of them, really, because when you've got a heel tag team and they're really popular, when you put them in singles matches, they can lose because fans don't believe that they're as powerful and effective without the other partner, if that makes sense. [01:00:32] Speaker A: That's true. Very true. [01:00:34] Speaker B: Madison Square Garden, November 17th. Kevin Sullivan and Pete Sanchez go to a 20 minute draw. That was probably a really good match. Billy Robinson, who has been in the AWA and was a career AWA guy, is here and he beats Johnny Rods. Dominic Danucci defeats Spiros Ariane by disqualification. Ivan Putzky defeated Bugsy McGraw. So Ivan was afraid Bugsy was going to nail him in the, in the gotchas, you know, they had a good match, I'm sure. Ernie Ladd is here. He defeated Haystack Calhoun. And the Black Jacks beat Tony Parisi and Louis Sir Dan as that match ended without a winner. And then Bruno and Ivan Koloff. Bruno wins by DQ with a special referee, Gorilla Monsoon. And I can really see, looking at this card, something you've said before, Steve, about Madison Square Garden, where you never really knew who was going to be on the show. [01:01:29] Speaker A: Right, right. It was very interesting and I wanted to add a little factoid here, something that's completely off the beaten path. One thing that interests me is, you know, as we got into the 80s, you know, Vince Jr. Really got into the marketing of wrestling and, you know, selling products, selling items. You know, when I, when I went to my first few shows, the only thing you could buy were the 8 by 10 glossies. And you could buy a small Norman Kaitzer program or sometimes a bigger Norman Kaiser magazine because he made nice magazines for the wwf, awa, NWA and wwa. But I just wanted to say that in this time frame, in 75, the WWF program was a very, very, maybe like for five or six pages and very little information, just some photos and stuff. It really wasn't. I think by the time that Backlin became champion, they had a Norman Kaiser magazine. It was glossy and had lots of pictures and articles and things. It was really nice. But I wanted to add this, that there was actually a gentleman who I. I was in contact with a number of years ago. He since passed away. I don't know if you. If his name would mean anything to you, Tony. Do you know the name Bill Kunkel? Does that mean, name mean anything to you? [01:02:57] Speaker B: Not off the top of my head, no. [01:02:59] Speaker A: He, he back in, in this time frame that we're talking about. Like when Bruno was wrestling Coal off of the Garden, he would appear on wrestling radio shows in New York. And he had a partner named Arnie Katz. And they put together this fanzine, a professionally printed fanzine called Arena Report. And I had a couple of issues that he sent me back in the 90s, I guess, or the late 80s. And he had pictures of Bruno and Koloff and nice articles that were not insulting your intelligence. They weren't like after, you know, goofy stories. They were, you know, trying to cover wrestling in a serious way. And it was really professionally printed. And apparently they sold this out in front of the Garden. And I mean, this is a topic I've never really discussed, but it just shows you how there was a. A lot of fans were heavily engaged in wrestling in those days. I mean, this was really before the observer became a national thing. I think Dave Meltzer had started it even in the 70s. It's more of a regional, you know, California newsletter. But this guy was going into trouble printing out almost a professional newsletter and selling it out in the street of Madison Square Garden. So I don't think he did for a long period of time. But the issues that I had gotten, I don't have them anymore. Oh man, were very high quality. And I just wanted to. To let the people know, listening, that there were die hard fans in those days too. Yeah. [01:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. I wish you still had those. So we get to November 18th, and this is the television taping in Philadelphia. At the arena, superstar Billy Graham beat El Toro Maldonado. Which I don't know a lot of Spanish, but I think that's the bull. El Toro would be. Anyway, Crusher Blackwell. So here's another big guy, Crusher. Jerry Blackwell and Pat Barrett go to a time limit draw. I cannot imagine that, but I hope it was 10 minutes. But, but there's, I notice here with Jerry Blackwell, he's just kind of getting started in his career. He's from a small town in Georgia. He's worked around the Georgia territory and now he gets a break to come into the wwf. And it just never seems like they can figure out exactly what to do with him. He's just another big guy who bounces around the ring with the smaller guys. Blackjack. [01:05:27] Speaker A: Well, I did want to add that he, he stayed here for a brief time, then went away, but by the time I was watching, he came back again in 77, 78. He did come back and I think he may have had. He may have had Blasius, his manager then. And he had, I believe he has one match of the Spectrum against Baclin for the title, which I believe is. There's footage of. Yeah, but, but, but you're right. I mean, this guy could drop kick at 400 pounds. He can move well, you know, he did become eventually a big star in wrestling in the NWA and other parts. But, but, you know, I remember him well. I mean, I think anybody that saw him in the WWF was impressed by him. [01:06:12] Speaker B: I was always amazed at his agility, you know, the way he could move for his beat, being as big. And when he had a. He had a promotion in Georgia for a little while. And when I was a television exec, ran a wrestling block of television shows in 1987, 88, 89. And we ran his show. It was one of the shows that came in that we ran on this seven or eight hour Saturday night block of nonstop wrestling shows. Tony Parisi and Gino Brito, which is called Louis Sirdan, here they go over the Blackjacks to win the WWWF World tag team titles. Now, to go back and add something to a point you mentioned earlier about the era of cooperation when these promotions were talking to each other, they had just had the NWA convention in 19. In October of 75. Yes, August. They had the convention in August of 75, which is the convention where Mushnik retired as president of the nwa. Jack Briscoe no showed the convention. He was so tired of them telling him they were going to get the title off of him. He just said, I'm not going. I'm going to take a break and I'm not going to show up at the convention. So they finally figured out, hey, we're going to have to get somebody else for the champion because Briscoe's serious. He didn't even come to the convention. So. So Crockett Senior is passed away by this point. So it would have been Junior. And I don't know if Junior was running the company yet in Jim Crockett Promotions by this time, but somebody there was talking to Vince Sr. Can you imagine, 10 years after this 1986 Magnum TA goes down in a car accident and they call the WWF for somebody. Can you imagine that? I can't imagine that would. Would ever happen. [01:08:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that was a different time. And, and they were bitter rivals and the world had changed so much. And it's, it's funny, it's good that you mentioned that fact because it, it just tells you how the wrestling world went from that wonderful time of cooperation to winner takes all. Whoever can win, wins. And that's it. [01:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, and there's only like two or three or four of us left. So you would think we'd be like, we got to work together more than ever. But it wasn't that way. It was a standoff. We're not, we're not going to work together. So Blackjack is going to be going to the Carolinas to work on top to try to fill the void left by Ric Flair and Johnny Valentine from the plane crash. So they take the titles and they put them on Geno Brito, Louis Cernan and Tony Parisi. I don't remember a lot about their run. I'm interested to see exactly as we progress here to 76, how long it lasts. At the TV taping in Hamburg the next night, we get two enhancement matches with Ernie Ladd going over and superstar Billy Graham and a couple other big guys. Ivan Putzky. In the TV taping the month before, Ivan Koloff had a two on one handicap match that he won. And now Ivan Putzky wins a two on one handicap match at this TV taping. And guess what? The dark match this night is. Ivan Koloff and Ivan Putzky. Two Ivans going at it. New Haven connect. [01:09:41] Speaker A: I got to, I get, I got to see them wrestle each other a couple of times. You know, from the late 70s to the early 80s, I saw them wrestle in Bampton a couple of times. I mean, it was definitely, you know, a natural match. These, you know, it was the Cold War era. The guy representing the poor Victimized Poland. Yeah, it might as well be. It might as well be Ukraine against the Russian Ivan Koloff. And, and those, those matches were always box office and those matches were always pretty solid. I mean, Putsky was not a great worker, but, you know, I think Koloff could have a good match with a broomstick. [01:10:20] Speaker B: I think Koloff was a great worker and I can imagine the propaganda for that match was just amazing. New Haven, Connecticut. Bruno Sammartino beat Blackjack Lanza in the main event for the WWF title in Pittsburgh. Again they go back to Mulligan. Bruno Sammartino defeats Blackjack Mulligan for the WWW title again. Trying to get as much mileage out of these guys as the tag team is disintegrating. Providence, Rhode island on the 22nd. Bruno Sammartino defeated Blackjack Mulligan again. White Plains, New York on the 26th, Bruno Sammartino over Blackjack Mulligan for the WWE WWWF title again at the arena in Philadelphia on November 29th. Ernie Ladd defeats Ivan Putzky. It's kind of a rare occasion where typically in house shows or at TV tapings, the heel usually dominates but doesn't go over. So it's kind of interesting to me that they would beat, put ski here at the end of November with Ernie Ladd. [01:11:32] Speaker A: Ernie Ladd, I mean, for, for the fans that don't know, he had been a huge, of course, huge, But a huge NFL AFL star in football in the late 60s and he was an all pro for the San Diego Chargers and I believe the Kansas City Chiefs. And I mean, this is only a few years removed from that. I know in those days, baseball, MLB was a lot bigger than the NFL was in this period we're talking about. But anytime that wrestling could associate itself with a real sport or real athletes as they would call them, Ernie Ladd had a great, you know, great, great respect from the general audience of fans because they knew he was a big, you know, legitimate sports star. [01:12:16] Speaker B: And now it's almost the other way around where real sports wants to associate with wrestling. [01:12:22] Speaker A: That's true, that's true in country music and other things. [01:12:25] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Yeah, they, you know, wrestling's on ESPN now. It's crazy. Boston, Massachusetts, at the end of November, Bruno Sammartino defeated superstar Billy Graham by count out. I think this might have been their first WWF title match. So previews of coming attractions there. [01:12:45] Speaker A: Right. [01:12:45] Speaker B: And this is also as Mulligan does the job for Dominic Denucci on this Boston, I believe this is his last. He might appear in one more show, but this is his last match really in the WWW if before he goes back to Crockett. And he in 76 and 77, Blackjack Mulligan, he went to Crockett before he went to the WWF and couldn't really get over. So it's kind of amazing that he goes there. The plane crash happened, he comes back to Crockett and has one of the most legendary runs in Jim Crockett history lore when he and Flair have their big, big series together. [01:13:26] Speaker A: I'm glad that you mentioned that because he had been in wrestling since 69 or 70. I mean, when he debuted, he was Big Bob Wyndham. And you know, he had been, you know, cannon fodder for Bruno. And also I think he wrestled in the AWA at times. And it's really cool to think that here in late 1975, he's finally kind of getting that big, big push and he's emerging from being like a well known, well regarded tag team guy to being a huge single star. You know, just out of the blue, it just occurred for him, which, by. [01:14:02] Speaker B: The way, did you see that post that I made in the Facebook group of the program where he got stabbed? [01:14:08] Speaker A: I missed that somehow. [01:14:09] Speaker B: Blackjack Mulligan gets stabbed by the fan. And they had put pig fat or something on the blade and the cop that was standing there by him basically said, this guy's toast. Like he's, he can't survive this. But amazingly he did. Which. Which adds even more to the story about his great run after this because he almost died the first big run he had in the wwe. [01:14:36] Speaker A: That's right. [01:14:37] Speaker B: Stabbing. Sunnyside Gardens kicks off the December month in New York. At Queens, Kevin Sullivan defeated Manuel Soto. Ivan Putzky defeated Bugsy McGraw by count out. And it's also the next day on December 5th, where Terry Funk wins a 15 man battle royal. So you talk about these promotions cooperating, working and talking together. So Terry funk gets a 15 man battle royal in St. Louis. And guess who goes over and wins the main event of the 15 man battle royal is the guy who's gonna win the NWA championship in just a few days. December 6th and Altoona, Pennsylvania, Bruno Sammartino defeated Blackjack Lanza. And then on the 8th of December in Landover, there's a $10,000 battle royal. And the elimination determines the card. Blackjack Mulligan is in the Battle Royal, but he doesn't appear in a match, only in the Battle Royal. And the Battle Royal is won by our battle boy. Bugsy McGraw, which means he's going to get the main event shot at Bruno Sammartino on this night. [01:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, Bugsy McGraw didn't really get over that well in his run. So to. To put him in this kind of a situation where he wins the Battle Royal, it's probably a lot better than if they just, you know, marketed him as wrestling Bruno in a month at your city, because he wasn't really a big draw there. But for fans in attendance watching the battle royale to see him win, which is kind of like a fluky thing because he's not one of the favorites, to see him wrestle Bruno, that's kind of a unique situation. [01:16:21] Speaker B: And you know, Steve, it's been said of me, and I'll say it laughing and jokingly because I'm not ashamed of it, but it's been said of me that I am a serious wrestling fan, that I don't go for the crazy wackiness all that much, but I'm really more into the seriousness of wrestling history or whatever. And for that reason, I guess I don't care for the second version of Bugsy McGraw, the Three Stooges version with the. With the airplane pilot thing and the goggles, and I don't. I don't. I just don't care for it at all. [01:16:58] Speaker A: You know who I think he was trying to channel there? And I might be wrong. You remember in the 70s, there was this guy that was selling a ton of records. Ray Stevens. The singer Ray Stevens. [01:17:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. The guitar Xan, Ray Steven. [01:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He would have, like, all these gimmicks and all these Personas and do all this stick. And I think Bugsy kind of stole his act but put it into wrestling. [01:17:19] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's a good. I never thought of that. Yeah. Ray Stevens, the streak. So, on the 9th in Philadelphia, at the television taping, it's superstar Billy Graham and Bugsy McGraw and a tag team versus the new champions, Tony Parisi and Louis Sir Dan. And it goes to a time limit draw. And the next day, December 10th, Terry Funk beats Jack Briscoe in Miami for the NWA world title. So there's all these moving parts. And the previous month, also the AWA world title changed hands, too. I meant to mention that. So there's a lot of moving parts here. This. These three months of 1975. [01:18:02] Speaker A: I was surprised in that match where Gagne finally lost the belt to Bakwinkle, that that match only drew about 6,000 fans. That blew me away. [01:18:11] Speaker B: I think people had just gotten tired at that point and had just said, it's like the Miami match only drew like 5,000 people to the Miami Convention center because people had seen so many Jack Briscoe, Dori Funk Jr. Matches by this point, and they thought, well, it's going to be just another Jack Briscoe, Dory Funk Jr. Classic. And I've seen three of them. Nothing's going to happen. Well, amazingly, you know, Dory doesn't show up. Terry is named as his substitute, and Terry wins the title. And that's Howard Baum's most embarrassing moment as a wrestling fan, is not being at that match in Miami where Terry wins the. Wins the title. But there again, people just thought kind of like. And Vern and Nick had had so many great matches in Chicago. As a matter of fact, the match they had in January got so much heat that people got shot at Chicago. The fan opened up a round gun and shot like nine people. And so I think people just thought, you know, he isn't. Vern is never going to lose the title. So I'm not. I'm not going to go. But there you go. Then you get a title change, which I think is one of the great things that pro wrestling used to do, is that it used to bring fans to the point of thinking it's never going to happen. And then it happens, right? Madison Square Garden. The December card is chocked full, of course, as usual. Ivan Putzky defeated Blackjack Lanza. Superstar Billy Graham defeated Dominic Denucci, Ernie ladd and Bugsy McGraw as a tag team, defeated Kevin Sullivan and Haystack Calhoun. And in the main event, Bruno Sammartino defeated Ivan Koloff for the WWW F title. Baltimore. As we're winding down the year, Spiros Arion gets another WWW F. And they just got so many great people to work with Bruno during this time period. I mean, it's almost like they could take the deck of cards and shuffle them up and just pick a card and throw that main event out there. And it was just fantastic. I hope Spiros Arion gets in this year in the Wrestling observer hall of Fame. I voted for him. And when you go back and you slow down and get in depth in this these years that so many people overlook, he is such a star. Boston, Massachusetts. Bobby Duncomb and the Valiants come back. Here we go with another. You know, you never know who's going to show up. Bobby Duncan and the Valiants, who have been here most of the first part of the year. And now Bobby Duncan's in Georgia and The Valiants are in Indianapolis and they come back for this match with Gorilla Monsoon, Larry Zabisco and the often gone now chief Jay Strongbow back for a double disqualification. And in the main event in Boston, it's Bruno Sammartino defeating Lou Albano in a steel cage match. [01:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be the ultimate Christmas card for the fans to see their hero annihilate the most hated heel of the promotion. And, and I remember Ring Wrestling covered this match and I think a young John Arezzi was there in attendance. He took the photos, but they show the picture of Albano just lying bloody on his back, flat on his back, drenched in blood. And, and you know, for young, impressionable people like me buying the magazine, you know, I was, you know, at 12 years old or whatever, you know, seeing him bloody like that, you know, Bruno annihilated him in the cage match. It made me believe, it made me believe in wrestling. So the, the role that the magazines played in, in those days, you can never underestimate how important it was. [01:22:05] Speaker B: And they got, they got the most hated heel guy, Lou Albano in a cage. He can't go anywhere. I mean, Bruno's got him all, you know, to himself. At the Spectrum in Philadelphia on the 27th, one of the last cards of the year, we got Bruno Sammartino defeating Ernie Ladd in the main event by count out for the WWWF title. And I was just thinking about that the other day. We don't have countouts in wrestling. That used to be a great finish to a match. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we don't, we don't book those anymore. Ivan Putzky defeated Spiros Arion and superstar Billy Graham and Ivan Koloff as a tag team, taking on the champions, Louis Sir Don and Tony Parisi, which is a time limit draw due to the curfew in Philadelphia, which you saw often in the northeastern cities where there was a curfew and matches would get to a point where they'd have to call them off because they had to empty out the building and everybody had to get home. [01:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah, and that was a nice way. You didn't have to waste a finish. You could just say curfew, that's it. [01:23:11] Speaker B: I'd known about a lot of those in New York, but I think I didn't know as many in Philadelphia and Boston. So. [01:23:18] Speaker A: Sure. [01:23:19] Speaker B: Nassau Coliseum, which is on the outside of New York City. In Uniondale, New York, Bruno Sammartino defeated Ernie Ladd by referee stoppage. So there's another different kind of finish to get out of that with, with Ernie Ladd and then the last show of the year, they're back at the Sunnyside Gardens in Queens and the main event is Ivan Putzky and Spiros Arion, which ended as a double disqualification. So that's, that's the third or the fourth quarter of 1975. Steve, what are your thoughts? [01:23:50] Speaker A: Well, you made a great point earlier. You were talking about all this talent. Like you said, you could just pull out a deck of cards and put any of those great challengers out there. But, you know, as we get to 76, you still have Billy Graham and Koloff and Ladd as top challengers, but then you're going to add Stan Hansen and Bruiser Brody and Ken Patera and before you know it, Stan Stasiak and Baron Von Raschki and Nikolai Volkov, they're all, all coming in. So to me, this is my first year as a fan. 1976, Tony and I, hopefully, you know, barring that one of us passes away soon. Oh, no, we're reviewing this soon with you and we'll be able to relive all these great moments. But it was a great, great year. 75 sounds like it was a tremendous year, But I think 76 will be even better. [01:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned that earlier. I hope we're doing it in 77 and unless something happens. We will be. Unless they come take me away or something. Something. But I'm planning on being here, Steve, so. [01:24:49] Speaker A: Well, me too, me too. I'll try to do my part. [01:24:52] Speaker B: And, and you know, I hadn't really thought about it. Even though you've mentioned it a couple of times, it didn't really dawn on me. But I imagine this is a lot of fun for you because you get with me and we do the mid-70s and then you're on the show with McAdam and you guys are doing the mid-80s. And so you get this nice spectrum view of what was going on with the company over this 10 year period. [01:25:15] Speaker A: You know, it's, it's remarkable. I mean, to me, to me this period is, is my happy, happy time. But, but I was a very happy fan in the mid-80s too, because the company was thriving, all the old garden was still there. You know, Bruno Albano, Blassie, Vince. I mean, all those people. And I enjoyed a lot of the new talent like Piper Savage and Steamboat and others. So, you know, as time would evolve and the roster would get to be all newcomers, my interest would not be as good. But we'll get to that someday. [01:25:54] Speaker B: So I want to mention, and I'm sure most of the people who are watching and listening to this podcast are aware of the Stick to Wrestling podcast with John McAdam. When does your show. That's a show that comes out every week that you guys do together. When does that show come out? What day of the week you. [01:26:09] Speaker A: That comes out on Friday. And for people that are interested, just go to McAdam pod.com you'll be able to access all the episodes. I think there's probably well over 400 episodes. I'm in a lot of the recent ones, but they all seem to be quite good. I know. I also occasionally do the Bob Smith Outdated Wrestling Hour and Bob and myself and Brian Solomon are going to be doing a non wrestling show coming up that should be really interesting on Bob Smith Outdated Entertainment Hour, which will be fun. But, but, but I enjoy these shows with Tony a lot and I, I really appreciate Tony having me on those group shows. Like we did the hall of Fame together and we might do a group show in the future. So I really enjoy being just one of many participants in the pro wrestling time tunnel. [01:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Bob had a birthday the other day and I sent him a little direct message on Facebook. I said, hey Bob, I just want to tell you happy birthday. And he responds back. He goes, I know, I know I'm gonna get you on the show someday. I'm gonna get you on the show. And I'm like, really? I wasn't really trying to advocate to get on your show. I just wanted to happy birthday. But then when I heard you on his show, you were advocating for me and so was Howard Baum. So I can imagine he probably thinks I'm paying you guys to promote me. [01:27:29] Speaker A: But it's just that we appreciate what you bring to this. I mean, we all have fun with wrestling podcasts, but I think you brought a new element to it. It wasn't there before. You, you've, you have such knowledge and you really, you know, talk about things in a certain in depth manner that is really appreciated. And you're, you're definitely, you definitely can hold your own with the Brian Solomons and all these other experts. So, so it's good to be a part of your show for sure. Tony. [01:27:59] Speaker B: Well, it's nice. You know, I was doing a Tennessee show with Tim Deals yesterday and that's going to be out. It may be out before this, I'm not sure. But we had Kevin McCann on who just wrote the Rowdy Red Roberts book. And Kevin, this is, he's, he's got a degree in history from a major university and he's written a lot of history books about different people. This is his first wrestling book. And so we were talking, I said, well, here at the Time Tunnel, we just got a little family. And so, Kevin, you just got indoctrinated into the family. So I'm very happy and proud of the people like yourself who team up with me to do these shows. And we're looking for. We're really looking forward to 1976, that's for sure. [01:28:45] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:28:46] Speaker B: All right, thanks everybody for listening and for Steve Giannarelli, I'm Tony Richards and thank you for joining us again for the Time Tunnel. What a great show. What a great conversation. What a great guy. Steve Giannarelli joining us here at the Richards ranch for another look into the Worldwide Wrestling Federation. And we have now completed four great shows about 1975 is a great year for Bruno Sammartino as the champion and just a great bunch of hot heels for him to work with. Spirio Arian, Ivan Koloff, Waldo Von Erich even they got heat on Captain Louis there for a while and drew some good crowds at the various buildings. But great year in 75. I appreciate Steve being a part of our show so much and coming on here and helping me with that www F because I didn't grow up with that. And I am just learning a little bit about the history of the WWWF back then. I followed it, of course, in the magazines and was aware of what was going on, but I wasn't really, really studying it, not like I do now. And Steve is just a great help because he was a fan and he was growing up watching the programs and going to the shows in the territory. And it's really going to pick up here in 1976 with a couple of our special analysts, Steve Giannarelli and Howard Baum in Florida when they started going in 1976 to the matches and watching them, being very, very involved. So should be a lot of fun. I want to tell you about my social media channels. You can follow me on X. We have some great pro wrestling conversations on X. Formerly Twitter. I'm at Tony Richards 4. We have our Facebook group, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Facebook Group. Search for Tony Richards or Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. We'd love to have you there. It's a Facebook group for serious wrestling fans of wrestling history and we have a lot of great posts in that group. You can also come over to my Substack Channel where I do all my research and write. I post all my research and all my writing. And that features a newsletter called the Daily Chronicle. And you can subscribe to the Chronicle for free. And that is coming to you every single morning at 5am Central, 6am Eastern and 4am Pacific Time, or 4am Mountain and 3am Pacific Time. The Daily Chronicle comes out every day. It's the only daily newsletter that I know of that's dedicated solely to wrestling history of the territory era. You can also become a premium subscriber there at the Substack channel because I write, I write pieces that only go out to our paid and premium subscribers. And I'd love for you to come over and contribute to what we do financially. $5 a month or $50 a year. We just picked up a few more paid premium subscribers in the last week. And I love you. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for contributing to my work in wrestling history. Really means a lot and it, it helps compensate me just a little bit for the amount I pay out for research and the things that I do to learn about wrestling history and to do these podcasts and these shows. And you guys are helping making it happen because you're part of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel community. And we really appreciate our premium subscribers. Okay, that's it for this week. And we will be back next week with our big Thanksgiving spectacular. We'll be talking about the Wrestling observer hall of Fame. We'll be looking at shows in the awa. We'll be looking at shows in Atlanta. We'll be looking at shows in Amarillo. We'll be looking at shows in Kansas City, and we'll be looking at shows in Florida and a lot of places as Thanksgiving used to be the biggest holiday of the year for professional wrestling, even back to 1975. And that's what we'll be talking about next week in our biggest Thanksgiving spectacular here at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Thank you so much for listening and watching. I'm your host, Tony Richards, reminding you if you want a better neighbor, you just be a better neighbor. Thanks, everybody from the Richards ranch and so long from the Bluegrass State. [01:33:18] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro. [01:33:19] Speaker B: Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [01:33:22] Speaker A: Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. [01:33:34] Speaker B: Don't you dare miss it.