Episode 30: Vancouver 1975 plus Q & A Mailbag 2

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today. [00:00:08] Speaker A: Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors, and other media. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream. Yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. Well, hello again, everybody. Greetings and salutations. Welcome to another pro wrestling Time Tunnel Wrestling history podcast. I'm your host, Tony Richards, coming to you live and direct from the Richards ranch in Western Kentucky. And I'm so glad that you decided to join me again this week for another time spent going in the Time Tunnel back into pro wrestling history. We cover the territory era, which I loosely define as around the late 20s, all the way up to 1990. And as I explained on our show, I think week before last, there are segmentations of that entire time period that are so important to remember and keep in place for understanding the territory era. Hey, I want to tell you about the audio version of our show. We started out pretty much totally video, but we've branched out. We have an audio version of this show now available on all the major platforms where you get podcasts. And we now have four or five of our previous shows of our archives that are now available. And we're working to get more of our previous episodes up and distributed. Our producers are working hard on that. You also can get our audio feed on podcasts from Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict, Pocket Cast, and a host of others. And you can still see all our shows on our substack channel, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, or go there and search for me, Tony Richardson substack. And the video version of our show is on our YouTube channel, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And you can go there and see not only the entire video version of our show, but you can pick up some quick clips and some of the highlights of most of our shows that are up there. We post at least four or five clips of every show and we put those in a special playlist for you there at the YouTube channel. I want to talk a little bit about a couple of podcasts I had the honor of being asked to be a guest on. I was on the WFIA podcast show and they do a concept called the Hollywood Squares, and this was the third version of this. I think I was on one other one. I missed one of the versions of the Hollywood Squares, but I was fortunate enough to be asked back for version number three. That came out, I think on October 30th on Benny the Players Entertainment Network on their YouTube channel, where Benny is one of the hosts of that show along with Chris DeMarco and it is affiliated with the WFIA, which they are reviving into a vibrant organization. My friend Brian Ferguson is the president of that organization and I would invite you to go check out the WFIA and see if that's a good fit for you as a wrestling fan. Davey o' Hannon was on the show with us. Brittany Brown, who I had not met before, was glad to meet her. Also Craig Peters from the London publishing magazines Pro Wrestling Illustrated and all the assorted family of those magazines. Craig was on the show as well as the guys that are here on our show, Wes Maidment and Terry Sullivan. And it was a literally stacked show because we had the Brady Bunch windows and we were all in there and we talked about some exciting wrestling history topics. So go check that out. The WFIA podcast show with Hollywood Squares version or episode number three of that. I was also invited on the Mount Rushmore show. Eric and Nate do that podcast and of course for Halloween they were doing the Mount Rushmore of the Scariest Wrestlers of All Time and they put their own Mount Rushmore of people to come on the show to talk about those four Mount Rushmore scary wrestlers. Barbara Goodish was on to talk about Bruiser Brody. Brian R. Solomon, who's been on our show here and is a very good friend of mine, he came to talk about the chic Evan Ginsburg who's been on our show, was there to talk about Ox Baker and they invited me to come on and talk about Abdullah the Butcher. So check that out. Mount Rushmore of Scariest Wrestler Show. Eric and Nate, two great guys and I enjoyed being on that show. Now just a couple other podcasts to mention here. Steve Giannarelli, who's our WWWF guy here on the show and was recently on our hall of Fame show and is going to be on a couple of our shows coming up before the year is over. He was on the Alt Jake podcast and that was a really good show. I did some work here one day and brought it up on the big television here in the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel studio at the Richards Ranch and got to see that show on the big screen and listen to it and it was great. And I also did the same thing with Howard Baum who was on the Outdated Wrestling Hour, Bob Smith, and they did a lot of great thing Howard's favorite things which if you know Howard, you've listened to him before. You've caught him here on our show. You know, that would be interesting to find out what Howard's favorite things are. But that was on Bob Smith's outdated Wrestling Hour. Both guys really put me over on both shows and I want to tell them, which I told them personally, but I also want to tell them here on the show how much I appreciate all the kind words and I'm just trying to live up to all that stuff that you guys say about me and put me over. But I appreciate it. There's some new articles that I've written that are out the Evolution of Wrestling is a series that I typically publish just for our premium subscribers to our substack or to my substack. But since it's hall of Fame season for the Wrestling Observer, I wanted the Evolution of Wrestling series to be focused on the people that I was voting for. And I picked three people in order of priority who I really want to see get into the hall of Fame. I am also voting for some other people, but they have some great advocates already pushing for them. So I picked a couple people that maybe didn't have an advocate. One of those is Roy Welch. And I wrote an article called Roy Welch, a True Pioneer and Wise Architect, the Father of Southern Wrestling. We have everything about Southern wrestling that we have today we can trace back to a large contributor, not all, but a lot of Roy Welch's grit and determination in the Great Depression to establish a wrestling territory. George Scott, who I think is often discounted because of the couple of. [00:07:28] Speaker C: A. [00:07:28] Speaker A: Couple of stints in his career that were not as successful. But every booker, every wrestler, everybody in any kind of art form or sports goes through a slump. And you could have a great baseball player over here that is playing for the Detroit Tigers and he's having an MVP season and he gets traded to the Colorado Rockies and he has a terrible season. So everybody, no matter what your level of performance, everyone goes through either a bad fit or a slump. And George had a couple of those. Unfortunately, they happened when a lot of people were keeping up with wrestling because of video and all of those kinds of things. And his greatest run is not as documented on video and people don't know as much about it. And I've been focusing on it here. You can listen to the show that I did with John Hitchcock on Mid Atlantic 1975, and you can hear about the masterful job that he did when the plane crash went down and he lost his two big heels in the his two lead heels, Johnny Valentine and Ric Flair and how they recovered from that and never missed a beat. Never missed a beat. George Scott and master Booker of Transition because he was also Vince McMahon's booker in the national expansion in the first WrestleMania. Might have booked the second WrestleMania too, I don't remember. But George was a very integral part of that. Does not often get credit for that rise of the WWF there in 83, 84 and 85. But those are some wonderful awesome years for George and I'd like to see him get in the hall of Fame. Both of those in the non wrestler category. And then Sputnik Monroe because he was such a big deal in the home terror, my home territory that I grew up on, the Tennessee territory. He was such a big deal here and even though I wasn't around for his run in the late 50s and early 60s with Billy Wicks, I'd heard about it and everyone talked about it and how they sold out Russwood park and all of that, plus all the great stuff that he did to battle segregation. So that article is called Sputnik Monroe Pro Wrestling's Barrier Buster. So those are some great articles and I've made those go out to all our subscribers and if you're a subscriber to the Substack, you can get those and read those. And once the hall of Fame season's over, those Evolution of Wrestling articles will go back to just our premium subscribers. But I wanted to make those available for hall of Fame season. And then also another feature that I did through October was wrestling show commentators and announcers. And on all my social media channels I did one a day in October. So 31 territory era television announcers and commentators. And each one of those is going to get a feature article and biography that is going to go out to our subscribers from now to the end of the year. And my first feature on that came out yesterday on Tuesday, Larry Matazik at Wrestling at the Chase. And so that one went out and we'll have more on all other the other 30 of those we're working on a special Thanksgiving spectacular show that I'm really working on. I'm trying to get all my guests lined up for that I think you're really going to enjoy. And I'm finishing up this deep research for the special series on stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. So many balls in the air, juggling so many things. And I'm just having a ball, just having a ball. And I do it because I get such great feedback. I mean when Steve Giannarelli goes on a show or Howard Baum goes on a show or Brian Solomon says something. I mean, that's just like, I feel like when they say those things about me, it is just energizing to me to do more work and to put out more great content. And I feel like I can throw lightning bolts, you know, at times. So I appreciate all of that. And in addition to working on the two biography books that I'm working on, Dorie Funk Senior, the King of the Texas Death Matches and also Jim Barnett, the Wizard of Professional Wrestling, I'm working on both of those books right now. Hopefully the Dory Funk book will be out next year in 2026 and the Barnett book will be out in 2027. That's the project workflow timeline that I have right now. And we're on schedule for right now. So today we're going to take another trip in the Time Tunnel and we're going to go to a territory that is not talked about very often, not talked about by very many people. But I wanted to talk about it because I have a historian on today, Steve Verrier, who wrote an entire book about wrestling in the Pacific Northwest and also was a fan of back in the 1975 timeframe of the Vancouver territory that was owned by Gene Kinisky and a couple others. And so that's a great conversation that we had at the Richards Ranch. Let's join that conversation now. And I'll be back at the end of the show to do a Q and A session. Got some questions to answer and do our wrap up at the end of the show. But let's go to that conversation with Steve Verrier right now. Well, hello again, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. This is your host, Tony Richards. Welcome back to another installment where we're going back to the year 1975 and we're taking our tour of the territories. And tonight I have a specialist and a historian who knows very, very much about the Vancouver and Pacific Northwest. [00:13:14] Speaker C: Steve Verrier is here to join me on the show. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Steve, welcome back, my friend. [00:13:19] Speaker B: Thank you, Tony. Glad to be back, man. [00:13:21] Speaker C: I'm just always so glad to have. [00:13:23] Speaker A: You here at the Richards Ranch. And we could talk about old wrestling. [00:13:26] Speaker C: Especially in the territory days. [00:13:28] Speaker A: And you are someone that I really. [00:13:33] Speaker C: Really respect because of the work that you've done. You just finished the book with Richard Vichyk on Wilbur Snyder. We had John to talk about that book not long ago. [00:13:43] Speaker A: You also, I remember thinking a couple. [00:13:47] Speaker C: Of years ago, thinking, you know, not many people talk about Gene Kinisky and his NWA World title run. [00:13:54] Speaker A: And then lo and behold, I find out you've had a book. So I got that book and read that and I just finished your book. [00:14:02] Speaker C: On the history of professional wrestling in the Pacific Northwest. And before we went on the air, I got to tell you how much I enjoyed that book. And so I think you're the right person to talk about this subject tonight. [00:14:13] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate that and I'm eager to go. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Good. So the Vancouver territory, it was also called All Star Wrestling in the time period that we're talking about. [00:14:23] Speaker C: In 75, right? [00:14:25] Speaker B: That's right. The, the name All Star Wrestling really got underway when Rod Fenton became the promoter in Vancouver in the. The mid-50s or so. And he is a key guy because not only was he the promoter of All Star Wrestling prior to the era we're going to be talking about today, but he was also the guy who got Gene Kinisky into the wrestling business in, in Tucson, Arizona in the early 1950s. So just an important fellow and, and All Star Wrestling really, I think we could say, got on the map under Fenton's leadership. [00:15:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I first discovered Rod Fenton when I was researching for the Dory Funk senior book because he worked in West Texas, had a relationship with Dory Denton and also Doc Sarpolis. And then, as you say, he. He bought the Tucson office from Jim Londos, right? [00:15:26] Speaker B: I believe that's true, yes. And, you know, he did very well there, you know, promoting in Tucson and other towns are on that circuit and was very successful. Of course, a lot of promotions kind of run their course after a number of years or at least run into trouble. But I think Fenton also had some family concerns that took him back to Canada. He was actually from the Edmonton area, as Kinisky was. And yeah, he took over that promotion and I would say you. Well, he put it on the map. It was, I think, a great place to work during that time. [00:16:12] Speaker C: You know, those. In those days in the 30s and 40s when he was working the West Texas small circuit there, Amarillo, Lubbock, the junior heavyweight titles were very, very important and he was always a top contender for the junior heavyweight title. And he booked Dorie Sr. Quite a bit up in the Pacific Northwest early, early on in his career in the late 40s. So he's a very significant figure that not a lot is ever talked about with Rod Fenton and not a lot's talked a lot about the Vancouver territory, but it was a really hot territory, really started climbing to prominent. When did Kuniski Buy into the territory. 62, 67. [00:16:58] Speaker B: No, it was later on that he bought in. It was actually his NWA championship run. [00:17:04] Speaker C: Had to do something with that extra cash he was getting, I guess, you know. [00:17:08] Speaker B: Well, yeah, yeah, I'm sure the travel schedule was a big inducement. You know, he did want to settle down and like a lot of wrestlers, he had some offspring who were very good at sports as well. And I think he wanted his sons to settle down and to excel to the extent they could. So Kisky bought into the territory in, yeah, around the midpoint of his title run in the late 60s when his sons were, I think, showing promise and you know, the family was really ready to settle down. [00:17:48] Speaker C: And like a lot of promotions, they were family businesses. I mean, we were just mentioning the Funks and the Grams and you know, the Crocketts and, you know, so there were a lot of family businesses in professional wrestling, you know, the, the guys who were champions for the. And I, I'm a huge NWA world title enthusiast. I, I love reading about the title and the champions and you know, you hear a lot about Lou Thes, who was the champion perennially almost through the 50s and early 60s. And you hear a lot about the guys in the 70s, the Briscoes, the Funk Juniors, the Funk, Terry Funk, Harley race. [00:18:33] Speaker A: But the guys in the 60s, I. [00:18:34] Speaker C: Think sometimes get shortchanged. You don't hear as much about Pat o', Connor, not even that much about Buddy Rogers. You hear about Rogers overall career, but not so much when he was the champion. And the guy who really gets shortchanged, I think is Gene, who was huge in St. Louis and all across the whole NWA footprint. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Right, yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker B: And he, he was a champion for three solid years. You could consider him the top wrestler in the world for that run. He had an amazing run with the NWA title. And I, I think you have to put Thes in a class of his own as far as those old time champions go. But yeah, Kaniski I think should be, you know, remembered in, in great regard. He was, I think, one of the best. [00:19:27] Speaker C: He had a long and very close relationship with the Funks. He worked with Doc Sarpolos, who was the promoter and owner of the territory there, and his junior partner, which was Dory Funk Jr. Until 1967 when Sarpolis passed away. But there was a period there in 1961 and 62 where they actually recognized Kiniskey as their world champion while Sarpolis was president of the National Wrestling alliance, which I always think is a very fascinated scenario. [00:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah, that Is true. And I, I think part of that just had to do with frustrations over trying to book the NWA World Heavyweight champion at the time. I mean, you know, a wrestler as popular as a Buddy Rogers, you know, certainly was in, in huge demand, could not wrestle everywhere. And what's the solution? Well, we, we see in this case it is to recognize Kinisky as the guy and well, that's understandable, you know. [00:20:33] Speaker C: And then what I think is interesting, what I think's interesting about that is that he ends up being the NWA champion and he, he, he passed that world title, that West Texas world title, he passed that to Dory Jr. Then when he became the champion of the NWA, he passed that championship to Dory Jr. So it's just a kind of an interesting thing in wrestling history. [00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And Dory Jr. To my knowledge has always spoken very, very positively of, of Gene Kinsky, considers him a, a bit of a mentor, you know, helping him during his earlier years. And I never did have a chance to talk to Dory. I'll just say there was kind of a gatekeeper in the middle there who made that conversation difficult. But have a couple of occasions to talk to Terry Funk and he certainly made much of the fact that Kiniski was just loved by the Funk family and, and later on down the line the Funks tried to help Gene's elder son Kelly Kiniske break into the wrestling business and really we could even say make much of his college years in, in West Texas. Yeah, the families were very close. [00:21:51] Speaker C: That, that West Texas style of wrestling which was in, in wrestler vernacular, snug and, and very tight and included some live rounds was just perfect for a Kaniski style. I mean he was a very rough and tough customer in the ring. You were remind me some of Ole Anderson. You were not going to go in the ring and not defend yourself and not participate. He was going to force you to wrestle. And so I enjoy that kind of style. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I think Kinisky was right at home when he was wrestling in Amarillo. [00:22:31] Speaker C: So the Vancouver office. So Kinisky buys into it in the late 60s. And so what other towns were involved in the territory around the Vancouver booking office then? [00:22:47] Speaker B: Well, in terms of size, the big one would be Seattle. I mean All Star Wrestling did make regular trips down there and usually did well, but the, the regular stops on the circuit were places like Chilliwack, which is probably about a 90 minute drive off the coast from Vancouver. Prince George up in the north was a regular stop. Of course Victoria and other Points in Vancouver Island. I also Kelowna Kamloops in the interior of British Columbia. But, but, but also the promotion did a lot of spot shows in many, many, many towns. And it's interesting just to get my chronology straight, you know, I, I did look over certain things prior to, to this talk we're having. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker B: And it's interesting to note that, you know, during the era we are talking about today, you know, there was not usually a lot of shuffling of cards. You know, as All Star Wrestling did travel that circuit, you know, things would be mixed up a little bit. But you know, for the most part, you know, these guys were on a traveling show we could say. And you know, the same, you know, during the era we're Talking about today, 1975, of course there were a lot of new names in, but for the most part it was like a recurring soap opera with pretty much the same characters and things being mixed gradually and slightly. But I think All Star Wrestling did well in all of its towns during that era. The promotion was still very, very strong. Kinisky was at the helm, although he was often on the road during that era. But I, to, to me a town that really stands out is Prince George way up in the north of British Columbia. Attendance at shows there was were, you know, not great, probably a thousand, which in a sense is very good. But you know, they had some great stuff. I know that there was an NWA title match between Jack Briscoe and Kiniski in that small city of Prince George up in northern British Columbia in 75. I mean to me that's a town that stands out mainly because, you know, it was not an easy place for the wrestlers to get to. And the promotion generally was pretty tight financially. Did not like to throw money around, a pretty major undertaking for the wrestlers to get up there pretty regularly and really put on a Vancouver caliber wrestling show. So to me that's a place that certainly stood out. [00:25:54] Speaker C: And, and Vancouver's big night was Monday night, right? I mean they were, they were, they were Monday night in, in I think Exhibition Gardens. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Was that often the Exhibition Gardens? Probably more often the Agridome, which still held good crowds and they usually drew I think three to 4,000 people there during that era. Yeah, those were the, the main venues in Vancouver and both did well and really had some historic shows. [00:26:29] Speaker C: Then Tuesday night they'd go to Burnaby. How far is that? [00:26:33] Speaker B: Well, Burnaby is part of greater British Columbia and it is, it's not far, it's maybe a 45 minute drive from Central Vancouver. Probably no more than that and probably a little less than that, maybe half an hour. And yeah, the, the TV studio there now, I mean I was there for an interview a few years ago. It's now just a regular TV studio for one of the British Columbia stations. And you know, I remember when I was there, I was wishing I'd been there, you know, a few decades earlier and actually talked to the guy who interviewed me about the fact that, you know, that had been the home of All Star Wrestling's TV show for many, many years. And you know, I grew up in Ontario, watch weeks old editions of All Star Wrestling on Saturday nights. But you know, I, I remember wrestler after wrestler selling next Monday night's show. I mean, they would emphasize Monday night, Monday night. And I think you could talk to many, many, many, many Canadians of my vintage who would tell you, oh yeah, Vancouver wrestling was on Monday night. They'd know that from coast to coast. [00:27:53] Speaker C: And, and so was that show live in the studio or was it recorded or how did that work, do you remember? Well, I mean did they broadcast it live or was it a taping? [00:28:08] Speaker B: I, I, well they, they taped it in a sense because their main market was, was nationwide in Canada. [00:28:17] Speaker C: Sure. [00:28:17] Speaker B: I don't, I'm not aware that it ran live in British Columbia. [00:28:23] Speaker C: So they went to Burnaby, they, they went to the studio, they did the show, they taped it, then they took that tape and bicycled it around the towns. Or was there one main television station that served all of British Columbia? [00:28:36] Speaker B: Well, no, there was to my network. To my knowledge at that time there was not a province wide network. I mean there are such things now. In that case, yeah, I think the term bicycling applies. And again, the tapes went all across Canada. So obviously the main concern is to draw a good crowd to the Agridome or the Gardens. But I'm not aware that the show was broadcast live. [00:29:12] Speaker C: They also ran Port Angeles, Washington. How far, how far would that have been for the guys to go? [00:29:20] Speaker B: Well, it's right in the northern tip of the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. So it's a ferry ride from Vancouver rather from Victoria. I would think that, I mean there also are ferries from the Seattle area. So you know, I don't know exactly how I would think that trips to Port Angeles would be combined with trips, you know, spot shows or, you know, regular cards on Vancouver Island. Victoria was a regular stop for All Star Wrestling. [00:30:01] Speaker C: And yeah, yeah, Port Angeles, I think they just ran that every now and then. The regular Wednesday night town you mentioned was Chilliwack. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker C: And that was at Evergreen Hall. And then I think was, was Victoria on Thursday night or Friday night? [00:30:28] Speaker B: I'm thinking Thursday, but I'm not sure that was, you know, absolutely consistent. [00:30:35] Speaker C: I think, I think at best of my recollection, I believe it was Thursday night. Just, I can't remember if I read that in your book or if I saw that somewhere, but I think it was Thursday night. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, when, when I was younger, I did not get to any of the shows in British Columbia. It is about 2,500 miles from where I grew up. But, you know, in later years, when All Star Wrestling was not quite what it had been, I, you know, I did spend time in British Columbia and I have lived there a bit over the course of my lifetime. And by the time I got there, though, you know, I, I don't think there was any pattern to when the shows were taking place. [00:31:18] Speaker C: And then they started using as the major title the Pacific Coast Heavyweight championship sometime around 1970, maybe some, something like that. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I, I don't remember the. [00:31:34] Speaker C: Exact year, but they, they had to use the British Empire Heavyweight Championship. But then they changed, I think maybe. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that was a little confusing because, you know, there was such a title recognized in the Toronto territory, also in the Vancouver territory. And I don't think there was always agreement between the two. I mean, you know, you could have two British Empire champions, but, you know, the Pacific coast title became a pretty significant title, often dominated by Kiniski, as actually was the case in 75. He held it a couple of times that year. But yeah, 1970 may well be the year in which that title was named such. [00:32:28] Speaker C: So they, they kicked off 75 in January. There was a card on January 20, Guy Mitchell, who, a lot of us who grew up with the Tennessee territory did not know it at the time, but he worked as an assassin under a mask down here in the south, but he worked as himself in Vancouver and he beat Kinisky for the Pacific Coast Heavyweight Championship. And he was working, I believe, as a baby face at the time. [00:32:59] Speaker B: He was, yeah, he came into the territory a couple of years earlier as Mr. X under a mask. I mean, he had played masked characters before, particularly the Strangler and the Assassin. And you know, he came in as Mr. X and you know, he, he did well as a heel and, oh, you know, after about a year, you know, in that role, yeah, he, he turned and it, it was a, you know, one of those baby face turns that, that people, you know, still comment on. I, I do go to the All Star wrestling in the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s Facebook page. I think that's what it's called and I think I've seen reference to that. I remember that very. He appeared on TV one week without his mask. He lost the mask in a match, I think to Kaniski. And he delivered a very good interview. He got people on his side and, you know, he was really one of the mainstays of the Vancouver promotion during that mid-70s era. And yeah, you know, along with Kaniski, he was one of those dominant wrestlers in 1975 in, in Vancouver and you know, for my money, certainly an underrated guy overall. I mean, he had a very, very good career. [00:34:31] Speaker C: Guy Mitchell was a very big guy too. He would have matched up well with Kinisky with a similar kind of style. I mean he was a. And when he was working as a heel, I mean he was a rough and tough character, you know. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:34:45] Speaker B: And you know, their matches were pretty straightforward. They were entertaining. There was nothing silly about them. I mean, they were great for the time sometimes. And yeah, those two guys were mainstays in 1975. [00:35:01] Speaker C: Often Kinisky was tagged up with Massa Saito, another big rough and tough kind of customer. What are your memories of Saito working in Vancouver? [00:35:12] Speaker B: Well, I do remember him. That's probably when I became introduced to him. And yeah, I remember him as one of those very rugged, serious wrestlers. I mean, he already was, I would say, probably a decade or so into his career. You know, often younger Japanese wrestlers at that time would go overseas, get a little experience and come back at a higher level. But Saito, you know, it was off to a very good start in his career already and he fit right in in Vancouver. Yeah, I remember him well. I remember him a lot better from years that I spent in Japan when he was, you know, one of the key guys. But yeah, he, he was a big part of the picture in 75 and it was clear that he was, you know, one of the most capable wrestlers certainly in the territory and probably in the world already. [00:36:14] Speaker C: So I've asked you about this guy before, but didn't Guy Mitchell team up? So Kaninsky teamed up with Saito and he had matches with Mitchell and great Malumba. Right. Wasn't great Malumba partners with, yeah, Mitchell. [00:36:27] Speaker B: And Malumba at one point in 75, not too late into the year, actually won the tag team titles from Kaniski and Saito and Malumba, you know, he is not that well remembered I don't know a great deal about him. I believe he was from Guyana. [00:36:51] Speaker C: Just a huge impressive specimen though. I mean just a big, he was. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah, he was a strong man. He, he did well. I think he had some seasoning in Europe before he ever showed up in North America. And you know, for at least part of 1975 he was in the very top mix in Vancouver. Not just as a tag team guy, but he had some main events against guys like Kinisky. And yeah, the audience seemed to love him and I'd say he was memorable. [00:37:24] Speaker A: I mean I, it's, it's seems hard. [00:37:27] Speaker C: To imagine you and I remember this time, but for a lot of fans it seems hard to imagine that there was a time where guys who were built like Malumba were the exception rather than the rule. I mean after the Road warriors we got a long line of big muscle up heavy guys, you know, and Malumba was that at a time when we didn't have that. So when he would come out of. [00:37:57] Speaker A: The locker room and walk to the. [00:37:58] Speaker C: Ring, I think fans were just kind of in awe of how big he was. Regardless of his acumen in the ring, he just looked impressive. [00:38:08] Speaker B: Yeah, he did. And you know, by 75, I mean he was, he was not a young guy, I don't know his age at that time, but he was, you know, well into middle age, shall we say. I mean, but yeah, he was just an awesome looking fellow. I mean. [00:38:30] Speaker C: I think I, I think I saw might have been on a Facebook group for British Wrestler reunion that he used to go to that reunion every year right up until the year that he passed away. And he was, based on the comments in the Facebook group, he was very well thought of. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Yeah, interesting. You mentioned the, the British wrestlers reunion. Much of that was organized by another mainstay of all star wrestling in 75, but more 74 probably. And that is Wayne Bridges. Yeah, Bridges owned a bar maybe an hour outside of London and every year at his bar there would be a, a reunion of British wrestlers and others. And I, I never made it there. But. [00:39:28] Speaker C: You know, don't you wish you would have though? [00:39:30] Speaker A: I mean. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Well, maybe, maybe one of these days. [00:39:35] Speaker C: I, you know, it's still going on but like the, the Gulf Coast Wrestlers reunion that used to happen in Mobile. [00:39:43] Speaker A: I, I hate that I never got. [00:39:45] Speaker C: A chance to go to that and I wasn't really focusing on wrestling that much when it was really going strong. But I always wish now that I would have back then been able to attend that because there so Many of my guys that I really admired would go to that every year, and most of them are gone now. [00:40:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I kind of hated when I miss the Cauliflower Alley Club reunion. I haven't gone recently, in fact, since before COVID this year. I was, I was back in the United States by that time, but I had been away and, you know, was pretty busy. It wasn't the time, but I'm already looking forward to next year. But as for the. The British reunion, I thought about going there when I was working on a book on George Gordienko, who was a huge star in, in Great Britain and, and much of the world, in fact. And you know, I did talk to Wayne Bridges not long before he passed away, and we talked a bit about his experience in All Star Wrestling also. But he is somebody that maybe the British fans remember well. But he's largely forgotten, probably even among fans of All Star Wrestling in Vancouver. He was, he was a very good wrestler. [00:41:13] Speaker C: And I apologize for not mentioning the Gordy Inko book. I haven't had a chance to get that one. It's. It's on my list of things to read. I've got a stack here, but. But you know, it's fascinating. I've often heard that he was someone that thes really respected and would have chosen to drop a title, one of the titles to him at one point. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I did a piece for Slam Wrestling kind of in conjunction with the Gordienko biography. And it is well established, as far as I'm concerned, that Fez wanted to drop the NWA world title in 1956 to Gordian or Frank Tunney, but he held Gordienko in, in great regard. You know, I've talked to Luthes Widow Charlie about, you know, about that relationship with Gordienko, and it was just a huge respect for Gordienko, not just as a wrestler, but, but certainly as a wrestler. [00:42:27] Speaker C: So, Steve, what was the complication of why that didn't happen? [00:42:34] Speaker B: Well. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Did they not think Gordyenko would draw well as the champion? [00:42:40] Speaker B: I. I think that's part of it. And at that time, a big. Is that Gordienko was in effect blacklisted from wrestling in the United States because. [00:42:52] Speaker C: They, they dropped it to Whipper Billy Watson instead. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:55] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, there was concern that you, you have to have an NWA champion who can wrestle everywhere, especially in the United States. And that was very iffy as far as Gordienko was concerned. I mean, I, there were, I think were feelers sent out perhaps to the State Department to See whether there was any possibility that Gordianko would be allowed to wrestle in the States. But I think it was a business decision. I mean, certainly Tani liked Watson. Watson was, you know, the number one wrestler ever in Toronto, I think we could say. And so Fez understood that. But, you know, wrestling wise, he. He almost certainly would have preferred to drop the title to Gordienko. [00:43:38] Speaker C: So not to, not to ruin my anticipation of reading your book or anything, but was he blacklisted because of the whole communist scare in the United States at the time, or was there some other reason? [00:43:51] Speaker B: Yes, and he did. You know, there. There was some connection, I'll just say. During his student days at the University of Minnesota, you know, there's no indication that he, you know, was a hardcore anti American or radical sort of. Yeah, but, you know, during the McCarthy era, it didn't take much to get you excluded. [00:44:17] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. In April, another big superstar that is, I mean, a huge specimen of a man, Don Leo Jonathan defeated Guy Mitchell to capture the Pacific Coast Heavyweight Championship. And Jonathan, he was just a massive baby face, right? [00:44:38] Speaker B: He was. And, you know, I would put him right up there with Kinisky on a list of, you know, wrestlers who really kind of embodied what wrestling in the Northwest was about during that era. They were both international superstars. Yeah, Jonathan was still traveling a fair bit in the mid-70s. He was wrestling in Montreal, IN. In the eastern US and eastern Canada as well. But, you know, every time he was able to work in Vancouver, yeah, I think there was a big reaction to him. And, you know, he's one of those guys who settled in British Columbia. That became his home. He ran a business outside of wrestling in Vancouver. And I think he's just one of the most respected figures in the history of wrestling in the Northwest, for sure. And he was a great athlete to boot. You know, you probably couldn't find a more credible champion than Don Leo Jonathan at that time. [00:45:47] Speaker C: So he only held the belt for just a couple of weeks and he loses it to Siegfried Steinke. [00:45:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:56] Speaker C: Was one of the tag champions in Amarillo in west Texas in 74. And then he worked in San Francisco territory for a little while, and then he comes in here to Vancouver in the spring of 75. He gets a win over Don Leo Jonathan, and he gets an NWA World championship match with Jack Briscoe. [00:46:20] Speaker A: And in those days, you didn't have. [00:46:22] Speaker C: To win the title if you just. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Got a match with the champion. [00:46:26] Speaker C: Your credibility got raised. And so I, I'm. I guess they did that to to raise Steinky's profile in the territory and have him as a drawing heel, huh? [00:46:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it, it wasn't unusual in that era for the NWA champion to wrestle the regional champion. [00:46:48] Speaker C: But yeah, often to a draw or. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Often to a draw or at least, yeah, you know, some wrestlers were very good at making the local guys seem like the guy who should hold that belt. And Briscoe was a very good champion. Yeah, Siegfried Stanke was another mainstay of that 1975 era, if we want to call it that. I remember him well. He was a stereotypical German character to a degree, but he, I think had a funny side. I mean, you know, if you think of the, the Von Erich types or, you know, Baron von Raschke or you know, other German hills, often they, they go more for that fearsome look. Steinky, you know, he, he had a, you know, soft spoken side and I, I, I remember him delivering lines that were probably more funny than scary. He talked about his Eisen Griff claw. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Hold. [00:47:52] Speaker B: And he, yeah, he was a good face of the promotion at that time. I remember him well. He held, yeah, both major titles and he did have that world championship opportunity. And to me what really stands about, stands out about him is that in real life later on he became a tennis coach at a small college in Texas. Um, I, you know, can imagine how he held the tennis ball as he tossed it up to serve. Maybe he went through those very quickly with his grip. But yeah, he was a very memorable guy and very successful. [00:48:35] Speaker A: In 75, how often did Briscoe come through? [00:48:39] Speaker C: Did he come through more than once a year or a couple times? [00:48:43] Speaker A: I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure Kaniski had. [00:48:46] Speaker C: Quite a bit of sway with the alliance. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Oh, definitely, yes. I'm just looking at 75 here. And in 75 he came through the territory at least five times. Yeah, he wrestled. Thank you. He wrestled Dale Lewis, who had a big year in 75. [00:49:06] Speaker C: We haven't talked about the professor yet. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it might have been the peak of his career. You know, during his run in Vancouver he wrestled Briscoe, wrestled Kiniski three times over the course of the year. Once in Vancouver, once in Prince George, as I mentioned, once in Victoria and Don Leo Jonathan also had a match against, against Jack Briscoe. So I, I think five times is more than usual. You know, often the champion would come through the territory, well, two or three times usually, I think, you know, on the same excursion, hitting two or three of the towns, but often while they. [00:49:51] Speaker C: Were in Canada, they would go to Stampede, and then they might do a Montreal and then they might do British Columbia and then make another swing back down south again. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well, anything that helps with the travel. [00:50:06] Speaker A: Yeah, oh, of course. [00:50:08] Speaker B: But, you know, Briscoe was a great champion. And I think actually there. I think I'm forgetting one title match. I recall a very unlikely meeting. I don't remember watching it, but I remember it coming up, you know, through my investigations. And I. I think there was a title match between Briscoe and a wrestler named Igor Volkov actually on TV in British Columbia, which, you know, was an absolute rarity. You know, to see the world champion on television just almost never happened. Igor Volkov had wrestled previously in Stampede Wrestling under another name. I think his name was Danny Babich. I. I think the gentleman was actually Croatian, but he wrestled as well. You know, people just assumed as a Russian and, you know, he had some success over the course of his career. More of it probably in the later era when All Star Wrestling was a shell of what it had been. But as I recall, yeah, there was that unlikely TV title match between Jack Briscoe and Igor Volkov on All Star. [00:51:34] Speaker C: Wrestling in 75, but, man, Briscoe and three Kaniski matches, and then a match with Stanky and a match with Don Leo Jonathan. I wish I had all of them on my TV tonight. I mean, I. I mean, those all would have been great, great matches. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned tv. Vancouver was no different from a lot of other territories. I mean, promoters were cost conscious. They did not tend to keep their old tapes. They recorded over them. So there's not a lot of footage of All Star Wrestling. But, you know, I, I hope it turns up sometime. I hope somebody saved something, but. [00:52:15] Speaker C: Well, you never know. Every time we give up on stuff, things turn up. We talked about the professor, Dale Lewis. He wrestled in Georgia, Florida, Tennessee mostly. Then he wrestled some for Don Owen, of course, in Portland and in. [00:52:32] Speaker A: In Vancouver. What do. What do you remember. [00:52:34] Speaker C: Remember about Professor Lewis? [00:52:38] Speaker B: Well, he was very proficient. I mean, he had a good amateur background. I. I don't remember to what heights he rose in amateur wrestling, but he, you know, that was his selling point. But, you know, what I remember even more is that, you know, he played a pretty good, arrogant, intellectual type character. Nothing particularly silly. I mean, he was believable, and I think people bought into that character. And again, he's one of those guys I remember like that from that era. So that tells me he was pretty good. [00:53:14] Speaker C: August. [00:53:15] Speaker A: And I'm Sure. [00:53:16] Speaker C: This pattern repeated itself over the years where January, February, something like that. Kaniski loses the title, it gets passed around a couple of guys, then about August he gets it back. So he defeated Steinky to get the title back and it puts him back in the top spot again. And now we get the Don Leo Jonathan feud with Gene Kiniski, which I'm sure that's what fans had been waiting for. [00:53:45] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I don't remember the sequence from watching, but yeah, I do know Kiniski won the title from Steinke and he held it at least through the end of that year. You know, I, I don't remember. You know, there were times in Kaniski's career in Vancouver where the fans really got behind him and he, you know, played a, you know, a decent, fair minded kind of guy. I, I don't remember, you know, how the dynamics worked in his match with Steinke, but you know, as far as his feud with Don Leo is concerned, yeah, anytime those two were in the territory for any length, I mean they would have multiple meeting meetings and. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Both. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Of them were, you know, in their mid-40s by that point in 75. [00:54:38] Speaker C: But you know, they always kind of imagined. Of course I didn't get to see the Vancouver wrestling or anything like that, but just in thinking about it, I always kind of imagined Kanisky being kind of a Ric Flair type of heel that no matter how evil he was, fans were just not gonna totally boo him like they were, they were gonna like him like, like they did flair in Carolinas. He, he, you know, he was dastardly heel, but they still really thought so much of him, you know, and I always kind of felt like Kiniski was kind of that hometown. Even though most of his career was, was built in Arizona, in Vancouver, he just kind of sort of made his, made his home, you know. [00:55:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, as far as Kaniski is concerned, I think maybe his number one goal in wrestling beyond providing for his family was to make sure fans got more than their money's worth. I think people realized he made a great effort to put on a great show and I think he had a lot of respect for things other than his wrestling ability. Of course he was a great wrestler, but people I think recognized that, okay, if we're going to see Kinisky, we're going to be entertained. And I think for that reason people were never going to turn against him entirely. [00:56:05] Speaker C: How much cross promotion was there? I noticed in your Pacific Northwest book that I just finished, there was often cooperation With Don Owen in Portland with a lot of promotions. Did the Vancouver promotion do that also? [00:56:23] Speaker B: It did, yeah. I mean Don Owen was a co owner of the Vancouver territory. He wasn't always up there obviously since he had his. He had plenty to do in Oregon. [00:56:36] Speaker A: But did they co promote Seattle often? [00:56:44] Speaker B: You could say that because there were wrestlers coming from both directions. Definitely. As far as Vancouver was concerned. [00:56:55] Speaker A: You. [00:56:56] Speaker B: Know, a lot of guys who were based in Portland would come up. I'm thinking guys like Jimmy Snuka in 75. I mean he was not what you'd call a superstar yet though he was certainly one in the making. And you know, he got over big in, in British Columbia and there were others, I know Tony Bourne was, you know. [00:57:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I see some of these. [00:57:21] Speaker A: I see some of these wrestlers making. [00:57:23] Speaker C: Appearances and they're typically wrestlers you would associate with Don Owen, like Jimmy Snooker, like Dutch Savage, those, those guys. And so that's. [00:57:34] Speaker A: And then, you know, I think Roddy. [00:57:36] Speaker C: Piper is going to show up there in 76 maybe. But so I was just curious what the relationship was. I didn't realize Owen had points in the office. [00:57:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he, he did. And you know, I think as far as the wrestlers from Oregon were concerned, I think if they didn't have a, if they didn't have to work a particular night in Oregon and you know, there was an opportunity on a Monday for them to get extra work, sometimes they would do that. I mean they, they didn't often. Well, Snuka did, you know, stick around for a while and he was participating on the TV shows and he did make the rounds. Others just, you know, came up here and there. But by, you know, a little bit later on the, there were more guys coming up. I mean, wrestlers like Buddy Rose for example, Rick Martel, you mentioned Piper, but in 75, Ed Francis Sons, I think. Yes. [00:58:43] Speaker A: Made appearances. [00:58:44] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. The, you know, there, there seemed to be good opportunity there when they did not have other commitments, we could say. [00:58:55] Speaker A: So overall. [00:58:58] Speaker C: Just thinking about Gene Kaniski as a, as a promoter, we don't really think of him as that. We don't think of him as a territory owner or a promoter. But I mean, and obviously in the next couple of years it's going to go through a transition as it gets sold to Altomco and he becomes the bane of a lot of wrestling fans ire for what happened to the territory after that. [00:59:24] Speaker A: But, but how, how do you size. [00:59:27] Speaker C: Him up as a territory owner or promoter? How, how, how would you characterize Kaninsky in that light? [00:59:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I've talked to a number of people, a number of wrestlers. I mean, there certainly are some who thought that, like a lot of other owners, Kinisky didn't want to leave the spotlight. I mean, I've talked to wrestlers who were trying to work their way up at that time, and, and who said Kinisky tried to put that because, you know, he didn't want to lose his spot. So I, I, I can understand that frustration. But on the other hand, I mean, I, I, I don't think decisions like that were Kisky's alone. He did have two solid business partners. I think Sandor Kovac in many way would be considered, you know, the, the primary owner, not necessarily in terms of his stake, but in terms of the work that he did. I mean, Don Owen was not there as much. Did they start other commitments? So it was a team effort. [01:00:37] Speaker C: Sorry to interrupt you, but it just occurred to me to ask you this. So did they use someone out front as the promoter or front person or authority figure on television? [01:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Sandor Kovacs was the guy, okay? Co owner. He was the only promoter acknowledged to the public, you know, in those days, you know, you know how it went. I mean, people didn't know that Wilbur Snyder was an owner or the Sheik or others. So, you know, I guess there were questions of credibility. [01:01:13] Speaker C: Well, it started out that the, it started out the Athletic Commission would not grant two licenses. You know, you either had to be licensed as a promoter or as a wrestler, and it also protected the business for the star not to be exposed as the owner of the business. [01:01:30] Speaker B: That's right. That was the case in many places. I'm not aware that that was exactly the situation in British Columbia. I think it may have been more for public relations or, you know, keeping a lid on things. And as far as All Star Wrestling is concerned, I think concerns were more with the Vancouver City Athletic Commission than any larger body. But yeah, Sandor Kovacs was acknowledged as the promoter. Don Owen was never mentioned, except maybe once, maybe a program, for example, said in attendance today. Is promoter Don Owen from Dignitary or something. Yeah, Kinisky. No way. No way. No way at all. In fact, I think there are even some wrestlers who probably were not fully aware. I mean, some wrestlers talked about Kiniski's wife Marion, you know, handing them their pay and things of that sort. But that doesn't necessarily signify to some people that Gene is a part owner. [01:02:38] Speaker C: Of the promotion during the course of his ownership. Do you know if he booked it himself or did he use someone else in the booking position? [01:02:48] Speaker B: Well, he certainly was involved. And again, I. I think it was largely a team effort in a lot of ways. I mean, Kinisky was certainly mindful of his spot, and he did have his. His ideas. You know, he was, I would say, completely compatible with his two partners. I'm comparing his mindset to what seems to have been the case when Al Tomco made the move to Vancouver. So I don't think. I don't think the role of booker was assigned to one guy exclusively. [01:03:28] Speaker C: You know, the only thing I would say to the wrestlers or the fans who may have thought that he, you know, you hear that. You hear that about certain guys in a booker position or in a promoter owner position that, well, you couldn't get over them or around them or, you know, they held us back because of this or that. I mean, you just got to realize, I mean, that is your. You've invested everything you have into this business and your family is counting on it providing for you going forward. And, you know, what kind of star you are. You know, you're a former NWA World champion. You know, fans buy tickets to see. [01:04:11] Speaker A: You, and, you know, you are going. [01:04:14] Speaker C: To be dependable, you're going to show up for you. [01:04:18] Speaker A: So, I mean, I see another side. [01:04:21] Speaker C: To that entire thing where, you know, I'm sure it was difficult for guys to step out of the way for other people not knowing. A lot of times, I mean, in. [01:04:32] Speaker A: The wrestling, you would bring guys in. [01:04:34] Speaker C: And you had no idea if fans. [01:04:36] Speaker A: Were going to pay a dollar to. [01:04:37] Speaker C: See him or not, where you knew. [01:04:40] Speaker A: You were a known quantity and you. [01:04:42] Speaker C: Knew that you could get yourself over. So that was not an easy spot to be in. [01:04:50] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, in some cases, you know, there are indications that a wrestler is really connecting with the fans and that maybe it's time to move them up. I mean, I'm thinking of Jake Roberts, who was very outspoken regarding what he saw as Kiniske's effort to sort of minimize his success in Vancouver. I mean, Roberts went on, you know, if Kaniski actually did have that in mind, well, you know, Roberts certainly proved him wrong over the course of his career. But sometimes that's what you got to do if you're not satisfied here. Well, you go there. [01:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:32] Speaker C: But, you know, not everybody always gets over everywhere. I mean, you know, sometimes guys can get over like a million dollars in one area and not draw a dime in another for whatever reason. Goes that way with bookers, too. You Know, Tom Ernesto was thought of as a fantastic booker in Georgia for Jim Barnett. And then when he went to Tennessee, one of the worst years Jerry Jarrett ever had was when the Booker in 85. So, so it's just wrestling is an art form and it doesn't always play the same way everywhere. And sometimes certain guys just get over in certain situations in certain areas. [01:06:15] Speaker A: And I think that was what the. [01:06:17] Speaker C: Beauty of the territory days were, is that those territories in those areas were specifically tailored for those populations and that was a great thing. And when wrestling became more mainstream and. [01:06:32] Speaker A: National, it had to be, for lack. [01:06:35] Speaker C: Of a better word, homogenized so that it would sort of fit everybody. And the old saying and marketing goes, when you're everything to everyone, you're nothing to no one. And, and that's, you know, I think that was the great thing about the territories is they were specifically designed for the audiences they served. [01:06:55] Speaker A: Served. [01:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I mean, we haven't talked yet about the All Star Wrestling TV commentator, Ron Maurier. [01:07:04] Speaker C: Yeah, let's do that. [01:07:05] Speaker B: But yeah, I think what you're saying, you know, is, is right on as far as he's concerned. I mean, he was the perfect announcer for that territory. He was not a wrestling guy. I mean, he was working for, for bctv, the, the station that produced All Star Wrestling. I'm, you know, he did, I think a, like a TV auction show and he might have done a talent, local talent type show, but he didn't have a wrestling background. He was asked to host All Star Wrestling. He did. He probably, you know, he would not match up to a Gordon solely or Jim Ross in terms of knowledge of what he was calling. But, you know, he was the perfect guy for that territory. Like a Jim Ross in, in Memphis or. Well, you know, a lot of guys that people would associate with their hometown territories in that era. So, you know, when he passed away during the, well, I don't remember the exact year, but the early 80s, I mean, you know, there was a maybe not cipitous drop in, in the popularity of All Star Wrestling and you know, the losing of, of TV stations across Canada and so on. He, he was not a great announcer, but he was perhaps the best guy for that territory. [01:08:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I was on a podcast the other night and the subject of announcers came up and Wes Maidment from Ontario mentioned him and I was thankful I had heard of him before, but nobody else in the show had. And it's an unfortunate shame that there are some of those great territory announcers that today, you know, People just know the usual people, the Gordon Solis, the Lance Russells, the Jim Ross's, the Bob Cottles, but they don't know the Sterling brewers or the Ron Moriers. So I'm glad we, I'm glad we talked about it. [01:09:20] Speaker B: Great rapport on camera with Kinisky and a lot of the other wrestlers. [01:09:26] Speaker A: You know, how would he, how would he. [01:09:28] Speaker B: What they were doing? [01:09:29] Speaker C: How would he do that, Steve? Or how would that play out? [01:09:32] Speaker B: Just the interviews he conducted were conducted respectfully. You know, I think he talked to them as, as he might have talked to anybody from any other walk of life. You know, he and Kinisky, I, I don't know whether they socialized, but, you know, on camera they were a very good pair. Same with Don Leo. And, you know, many of the guys Maury interviewed, I mean, they seem to enjoy the interviews. [01:10:05] Speaker C: Was he a sports guy or what, what did he do for the television station? [01:10:09] Speaker B: No, he. I'm not aware that he ever called any other sports. [01:10:14] Speaker C: Wow. He was just an announcer, I believe. [01:10:17] Speaker B: And yeah, you know, he, he was an employee of BC tv and I'm sure somebody said, well, how would you like to do the wrestling show? And he said, well, I don't know, let me try it. [01:10:29] Speaker C: Well, back in those days, back in the broadcasting days of the 50s and the 60s, you did a little bit of everything. You know, you might have to do the sports one night, you might have to do the weather one night, you might have to do the news, you might have to go out in the field and do reporting. [01:10:45] Speaker A: I mean, you, you were an announcer. [01:10:47] Speaker C: Who, you know, did commercials and all sorts of things rather than the specialists kind of situation we have today where you get, you go into the business to just be a weather person or just be sports person or just be a journalist. Back in those days, you were just an announcer. And so that's why I wanted to. [01:11:09] Speaker A: Ask that question, because he strikes me. [01:11:12] Speaker C: As coming from that generation where just. [01:11:13] Speaker A: Sort of a jack of all trades. [01:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's probably true. And, you know, there was not a lot of really wild stuff going on in All Star wrestling during the 1970s or really at any point. I mean, there were some wild characters. I mean, Abdullah the Butcher came through at times and Tor Kamata was, you know, one of those guys perceived as extra violent. And, you know, others. [01:11:43] Speaker C: What's, what's the most memorable thing that you remember happening on television for All Star? [01:11:49] Speaker B: O. [01:11:53] Speaker C: Just kind of like, wow, I can't believe I just saw that type thing. [01:11:58] Speaker B: Well, you, we've got to keep in mind that my favorite movie of all time is 12 angry men, which has absolutely no action. It's just talking. [01:12:06] Speaker C: Right. [01:12:07] Speaker B: But I, but I would say to, to me, it is probably a composite of Ron Mory 18 Kaniski interviews. I mean, they had something going. I don't mean that in a salacious sense. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you this question. Well, together, would, would Ron challenge Kaniski? Like, hey, everybody saw what you did. [01:12:30] Speaker C: On Monday night at the, at the Agradome and how you won the title and you cheated and would he be. [01:12:36] Speaker A: That kind of way with him? [01:12:37] Speaker C: Or would he just, would he just introduce him and let Kinisky take the stage or how'd that interaction play out? [01:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't remember any challenges, but Kinisky was such a gentleman during those interviews. I mean, he would compliment Ron Maurier. He always told him he did a great job interviewing him. [01:12:57] Speaker C: Oh, cool. [01:12:59] Speaker A: So they came across as being friends then? [01:13:02] Speaker C: Sort of a little bit. [01:13:05] Speaker B: To a degree, yeah. Or at least guys who were on the same page. [01:13:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:13] Speaker B: I don't remember any challenges. In fact, you know, I, I, I guess I hurt Maurier, raise his voice a few times, but I don't remember that ever happening. With regard to Kaniski. [01:13:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:27] Speaker A: Did Abdullah eat a light bulb or. [01:13:29] Speaker C: Do any of that kind of stuff on television or, I mean, I'm just trying to get a feel for like what would have the most interesting thing that would have taken place or was. [01:13:39] Speaker A: It more the matches that were the. [01:13:41] Speaker C: Center stage and not the angles so much? [01:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would, yeah. You know, again, I've talked to wrestlers who worked Vancouver and worked other territories, and almost unanimously, I think they said Vancouver was not big on the angles. And that's my perception too. As I mentioned earlier now, they had a soap opera, they made slight adjustments, but the show did not change radically. I mean, we can talk about angles in other territories. In San Francisco, Ray Stevens jumping off the ladder onto Pepper Gomez's stomach. Or in Detroit, you know, the chic and his fireball. Right. [01:14:27] Speaker C: But in Vancouver it was more sports based wrestling. [01:14:30] Speaker B: I, I, I think so. Sports based and family type entertainment. [01:14:35] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:14:37] Speaker B: And the emphasis was, you know, there didn't seem to be a great many, I mean, many territories had programs that would last for several weeks. I mean, these two guys, that didn't seem to be the case in Vancouver so much. There might be a small issue. Somebody would win, they'd move on and they, you know, build up the next show. And I think Ron Morier was pretty good at that. You know, he did interview the wrestlers in a way that gave them an opportunity to try to bring fans to. To the next show. [01:15:15] Speaker C: Did Ron live in Burnaby? [01:15:19] Speaker B: I don't know exactly where he lived, but. But again, Burnaby is part of greater Vancouver, so it's easy to get around. [01:15:28] Speaker C: Did he do other wrestling shows or just the Vancouver show? [01:15:32] Speaker B: Just the Vancouver show. [01:15:33] Speaker C: Okay. But it was seen in most of Canada, right? [01:15:36] Speaker B: It. It was for a time, yeah. Coast to coast. And, you know, at times some of the All Star wrestlers would. Would participate in other promotion shows in other parts of Canada based on their popularity off the Vancouver television. But yeah, that show was. Was on. I mean, I. I grew up in Ontario and there were opportunities to watch it. I mean, you could watch it from a Toronto station kitchen or an hour away. It was. They had many channels across the country. [01:16:16] Speaker C: Steve, I can't thank you enough for spending this time with me tonight. And I want to remind everybody about your books. You have a book about George Gordienko, you have a book about Gene Kinisky's life, you are his biographer, and you have a book about the wrestling history of the Pacific Northwest. And you have the latest book. And if I leave any out, you let me know. But you have the latest book with Richard Wicek on the. The life of Wilbur Snyder. And I. I think that's just a great book. I just finished that one not long ago, too. [01:16:53] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:16:54] Speaker C: Did I miss any? [01:16:57] Speaker B: Well, as far as wrestling is concerned, probably not. I am working on another project now. I don't want to say too much, but it concerns somebody who had a long connection with the wrestling business but went on to other activities. [01:17:13] Speaker C: I see. Okay. Well, we'll be waiting to hear about it. And you, you keep me informed on that so that we can let everybody know when you're ready to. To let us in on it. [01:17:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:17:26] Speaker A: When you're ready to unmask. Thank you for spending the time with me tonight. [01:17:33] Speaker C: It was fantastic going back to vancouver territory in 1975, and I look forward to future episodes where we can take this on into 76. [01:17:42] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate that. And maybe we can get together sometime and actually try to get a team together to build an actual time machine to go back and watch some of this stuff. [01:17:53] Speaker A: You know, I can't remember if I've. [01:17:55] Speaker C: Ever said this or not, but, you know, when I was in school at Murray State University, in the media class that I was taking, because at that point I had been Injured and didn't think that I'd be playing sports for a living or anything like that. So I started getting really interested in broadcasting. And I had been. I had worked at a radio station in my teens and was working at one at the time. [01:18:21] Speaker A: And so I was taking some media and journalism classes. And the professor told us that the broadcasting signals that went out from radio and television stations went into the atmosphere. [01:18:32] Speaker C: Atmosphere. [01:18:32] Speaker A: And they're still out there. So I just got to think that. [01:18:36] Speaker C: One of these days someone's going to invent the technology that will retrieve all those signals and. And bring those back so that we can watch all that stuff someday. [01:18:47] Speaker A: Well, I mean. I mean, I mean, we talk. We talk about how before we went on the air, we talked about how 40 years ago we wouldn't have thought. [01:18:54] Speaker C: We'D have been talking like this tonight. But, you know, so all things are possible, I guess. [01:19:00] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, we're certainly in extreme acceleration. Who knows? [01:19:07] Speaker A: Steve, thank you for joining me, sir. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Okay. You're quite welcome, Tony. It's been a pleasure. [01:19:12] Speaker C: Talk to you soon. [01:19:15] Speaker A: Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation about a territory that is not talked about very often. I know. I was all ears. I enjoyed hearing. I enjoy hearing and learning about territories I didn't grow up with that I didn't really know much about. And quite frankly, we didn't get a lot of coverage in the national magazines about the Vancouver territory. And I only learned about it later on when I started networking and tape trading with people that there was. And I never got much of the Vancouver territory on video either. And I'm not sure how much is really out there video wise. I haven't had that conversation with Charles of wrestling playlists of how much video content is out there, which. That's another thing that I failed to mention in the opening of our show. The Season of Giving is starting on the wrestling playlist here really soon, where Charles goes out and asks people for video compilations, articles about video comps that they would recommend and write about. And I've submitted mine. The 10 best matches. My list of the 10 best matches on video. Not the 10 best matches of 1975, but the 10 best matches you can watch on video from 1975. I've written that and submitted that to Charles, and that'll be coming out as part of the Season of Giving on Wrestling playlist. And if you don't subscribe to that, you really should. If you have any interest in wrestling on videotape or wrestling that's available on the video media Charles is the best out there, and he has built an amazing, amazing platform with wrestling playlists. And it's an invaluable resource for anybody who wants to try to find out, excuse me. About video. It's the fall part of the year, and the atmospheric pressure, the barometric pressure is changing and the leaves are falling and. And my sinuses are being affected. So I'm taking some medication for that. It makes my throat and my lips a little dry. I got a handy bottle of water here, handy, so make sure that I don't annoy you too much. But there may be an intermittent cough or whatever every now and then, and I apologize for that. But this time of the year just affects me in that way. All right, let's talk about questions and answers. We'll do our second Q and A session here. And I've got five questions and five things that people have submitted that they'd like to hear me talk about as far as wrestling history is concerned. Let's start with this question by Dennis Mitchell. Tony, other than Gordon solely and Lance Russell in the Territory days, who in your opinion was good, was a good wrestling announcers in the day? Well, I think most of the people on the list of 31 that I put, because I actually came up with, I think, almost 70 wrestling announcers on a list. And from that list, I had to pick 31. And I picked the obvious ones just like you did in your question, other than Gordon Soley and Lance Russell. So we take those two and put them to the side because that's who most people say. But it's also, you have to realize, it's also possibly from a limited amount of exposure to the amount of wrestling announcers that there were in the Territory era. And in my list of 31, I tried to mix in. Well, one thing I wanted to do was I wanted to mix in international. So I had Dr. Alfonso Morales from Mexico because I wanted somebody from Mexico to be represented in the list of 31, and I wanted Great Britain to be in there. So I put Kent Walton in there. And I like Kent Walton a lot. I thought he was very, very good at getting over wrestling on the World of Sport show. And I've watched a lot of that, especially here in my later years. And I really like the way that he gets the sport part of the. Not that they didn't have some Hoo ha and Gaga. I mean, they did for sure, but I like the way Kent Walton gets over. He gets it over like Gordon would get it over from a technical standpoint. I like the way that he told the story in the show. My favorite territory era announcer was Sterling Brewer. And Sterling Brewer was from Birmingham, did the Birmingham Goules Welch show and every now and then and I'm going to try to include a match, a video of a match with Sterling Brewer on commentary in the article that I write on Sterling Brewer. So when that comes out, I'm going to try to have a piece of video so that you can hear if you're not familiar with Sterling, what it sounded like to have Sterling Brewer call a match. I mean, Sterling Brewer got across the fact that you needed to get a ticket and be at the show better than almost anybody in all of them. I'm talking about Gordon and Lance as well. I mean they both had their strengths. Gordon's strength was technical. I mean getting wrestlers over and getting the sport based presentation over. Gordon was great at that. Lance Russell was great at making you feel comfortable about watching wrestling. To me, when you watched a match or you watched a show with Lance on it, Lance could have been your neighbor in the south. And it was almost like he was just there and he was your guy down the street who was on television doing the matches. Just like you would run into him at the bar or you would talk across the fence to your neighbor. That was, that was Lance. Sterling was a good combination of two of those aspects. He got the match over very well, but he also made you want to see the live event every single week. And you got to remember in those days, in the territory days, a lot of these announcers had to get the story across for people to buy tickets weekly, every single week. Birmingham was on Monday night, it was on the same night Memphis was on. And Sterling was getting across that you needed to be at the auditorium in Birmingham on Monday night. You can't miss this show. You can't miss it. You've got to have your regular ringside seat. Cause you don't want to miss what's going to happen this week with these guys. And I thought he was very, very, very good. I like Mike Duncan too. Mike Duncan was on the Nashville show and he wasn't a regular, but he was on there enough that I remember seeing him a couple of times and I thought he looked very, very comfortable on there. And the other guy was Harry Thornton. And Harry Thornton was. Well, there was Grady Reeves in Huntsville who I never really got to see very much at all, just a very limited amount. But, but the stories that people would tell in the Huntsville market about him made me know that he was just Gullis Welch was amazing at hiring these guys that were part of the community. They wanted to sell tickets in Memphis, they wanted to sell tickets in Nashville, they wanted to sell tickets in Birmingham, Huntsville and Chattanooga. I mean, that was their bread and butter. Those were their weekly towns that they had to generate money in to keep the. To keep everything going. And everything else was, you know, not that Louisville and Evansville weren't important. They were. But they weren't as important as Memphis. And over on the other side, Nashville and Birmingham and Chattanooga, they were all important in that part of the territory. And so they were very good at getting guys who were over in that town, not as wrestling commentators, but as actual members of the community. And part of the. I mean, they were on television almost every single day because they were on the newscast or they had their own television show or they were a sports guy or something like that. So fans didn't see him once a week. They saw him every day for years. And when they told you something, they had the voice of authenticity and authority, and they had such brand equity and strength that they helped them sell tickets in that market. And sometimes they had a percentage of the town. So it was really important for them to get it over because they were going to make money based on the amount of people that came to the matches, which I also thought was extremely smart of Roy and Nick to do. But those were. I mean, all those guys were great in the new Goulas Welch territory. You know, Sterling Brewer, just one more little fact about him. And I uncovered. I didn't know this until I did the research for Jim Barnett on Briscoe and Bradshaw, but when I went deep into the Atlanta wrestling war, when Ann Gunkel took everybody from the ABC booking office over to all south in Atlanta, she also took Ed Caprell, who's on the list. And I never got to see much of Ed Caprell, but talking to Jerry Oates, talking to Bobby Simmons, guys who grew up down there, I got a feel that Ed Capra was a big deal. And he went with Ann Gunkel, which left the nwa ABC booking office, left Buddy Fuller and Lester Welch and those guys. And Jim Barnett was coming in for that office, left them without an announcer and to fill in. And I don't know if they ever really considered going with Sterling, but Sterling Brewer hosted the Atlanta show on WTCG, which would become WTBs. They used sterling for a good period of time before they brought in Gordon solely. And I think. And I'd have to check on this, but I think they also Brought in Les Thatcher for a little while there before Gordon came in. And I think Gordon and Les maybe worked together for a while, but they. They went to Sterling first in Atlanta, and then he went back to Birmingham to just do the Birmingham show. And. But that. That's pretty powerful when that's your number one option for replacing a legend. I mean, Ed Caprell was. I mean, before Gordon solely was a legend in Georgia, it was Ed Caprell. Gordon was not known. He came from Florida. So then he. Then when WTCG became WTBS and Uplink for wider distribution beyond just the basic cable in a couple of states around Georgia, it became a national broadcast. Gordon was the guy, and that helped build the legend and the reputation of Gordon Soley. But Ed Caprell, when it was just an Atlanta station and it was also broadcasting to just a few extra people outside the state, I'm not sure exactly when it went on cable, but Ed Caprel was a huge deal, and so replacing him was a tall task. Question number two. What wrestlers have been forgotten that we need to remember? [01:31:00] Speaker C: Well, this. [01:31:01] Speaker A: Mark Matsuo, I think. Matsuo. I'm not sure how to say your name, Mark. I'm sorry. And you're a big supporter in the Time Tunnel Facebook group, so I'm sorry if I butchered your name. I really focus on that. That's why I did the 31 announcer list was. I think some of these announcers and commentators have been forgotten. And I wanted to do a list to bring them back to the forefront of at least a few people's minds and have some documentation about them and write a bio about them and so on. And I do that in the Time Tunnel. I just. And I do it with everybody, not just wrestlers, but promoters and bookers and people that were involved in the wrestling business that are not people that anybody today would just go, oh, yeah, I don't know. I remember that guy. I just wrote a piece on Charlie Rentrop. It was the anniversary of the death of Charlie Rentrop. It was just this week, as a matter of fact, in the Daily Chronicle, which is the daily history newsletter that I put out. And Charlie Rentrop pioneered wrestling in Memphis. He was one of the first organizers of professional wrestling for Memphis. And he worked with the St. Louis booking office. He worked with Tom Pax, which then worked with then Lou Thes and his father, Martin Thess bought out Tom Packs. So he worked with them. He sold Luthes a dog one time, or he bought the dog from Luthes, I can't remember. But they did a dog Deal transaction. And Charlie Renshaw actually became the booker at times for the Mississippi Valley Sports Club, which was the booking office that thes owned. And then when Mushnik bought out the rest of that, they were partners for a little while. And then Mushnik brought, bought out the Mississippi Valley Sports Club was getting close to the time when Sam Avey came in and bought out Rentrop and Les Wolf came into Memphis. And so all those names are names. [01:33:05] Speaker C: That you just don't. [01:33:06] Speaker A: You just don't hear all the time. And so those are things that fascinate me, uncovering those things and those people. I'm so happy that someone just wrote a book on Rowdy Red Roberts. We know we, some most wrestling fans could sit down and write you an encyclopedia on Jerry Lawler or Bill Dundee or Tommy, Tommy Rich or Jimmy Valiant, you know, those Memphis type Tennessee wrestlers that everybody knows and we've heard so much about over the years. And somebody decided to write a book about Rowdy Red Roberts. And Rowdy Red Roberts was such a key figure in the early Roy Welch days of the Territory and the early Goulas Welch days of the Territory. And we're going to have the author of that book on the show soon, I hope. He sent me a complimentary copy of the book and I'm working my way through it right now. Rowdy Red Robbers. I'm glad somebody's decided to document some of the achievements that he, he had. I don't know, I mean, nobody really comes to mind and. Which I guess not to say that they've been forgotten by me, but there's a lot of them. There is a lot of people. And in my Amarillo Dorie Funk Senior book I'm writing, I am making sure to write a couple of places in the book. Some people that you've never heard of, but they were so key and integral to the territory and to the success. To Doc Sarpolis. I mean, a lot of people hadn't heard of Doc Sarpolos until a year or so ago when I started bringing his name up a lot and telling people the things that he did and the innovations in booking that he made. And a lot of people hadn't heard of Dizzy Davis. And my friend Greg Klein has, you know, brought him to the forefront and he was, you know, such an important part growing up as a kid in Houston and knowing Gorgeous George as a child and as teenagers, and the Gorgeous George gimmick being based off of, you know, a concept that Dizzy Davis had come up with. Those kinds of things are all exciting to me. So I could spend 30 minutes on this question about forgotten wrestlers and I probably ought to do a better job of sitting down and just making a list for you. But. But just off the top of my head, that would be my answer there. There's a lot of them. There is a lot of them. And I go through when I do the birthday list, when I do the in memoriam and some of you that are in the Facebook group or you get the Daily Chronicle, you'll know the list I'm talking about. Every day there's a list that comes out from me. And the birthday list has two parts. It's the in memoriam. It was the birthday of someone who's passed on who was in the business. And then there's the birthday list of the people that are still with us. And almost everybody kind of has heard of or knows people on the living list, right? They know the Ken Pateras. They know those people. But on the in memoriam list, I bet there's always a couple people on. [01:36:23] Speaker C: There that people look at the list. [01:36:25] Speaker A: And go, and I really try to the best of my ability. And I think there's only been one time in over a year when I've been doing this daily tribute to birthdays or the RIP list, right? The rest in peace list where it's the anniversary of the day that that person passed away that was in the business. I think there's only been one time on the RIP list. I have not been able to come up with a photo of someone on the list. And I've put some people in the RIP list that I know. Most people that are in the group or that look at that list have never heard of. They don't know who they are. And so I know a lot of people haven't heard of Dr. Watson. And Dr. Watson was a wrestler around the Paducah area who had a career in wrestling. He worked some of the territories or whatever, but he was never a major big star. But he contributed to the wrestling business and he was important to me. And since it's my list, he gets on the list most of the time I try to look and see how many matches that wrestler had in order to make the list. And usually it's over 700. If somebody had over 700 matches, if they had a thousand matches, 1500, 2000. Most people in the professional wrestling business had somewhere between two and 3,000 matches matches. Now, Danny McShane, who had a very long career over, you know, almost 25 or 26 year career, had almost 3,000 matches, or actually he had almost 4,000 matches. But that's, that's an anomaly, right? So if they had over 700, 750, 800 matches and they ring a little bell in my head, I'm going to put them on the list and I'm going to track down a photo for them. I was trying to find photos of Charlie Rentrop the other day and I went to the wrestling Historian Salon group on Facebook and just put out a plea, hey, does anybody have a picture of this guy? And they responded and I got a picture, I got two or three pictures of Charlie Rentrop for it. So there's a lot of people that have been forgotten that we need to. [01:38:44] Speaker C: Memorialize and to, we need, need to remember. [01:38:46] Speaker A: And that's very important to me. I want to honor these people because they contributed to the business that we love and everybody contributes. You know, if I, if I had access to people that, and I knew who the people were that hauled the ring and set up the ring and sold the concessions, I'd make all of them available, you know, But I don't know who all those people are. They've been lost to time, but they contributed to the total package of what you enjoyed as a pro wrestling fan. And if at all possible, I think they should be recognized and honored. What are your thoughts on multi time world Champions? George Shire asks. And I've heard George's opinion on this. I know it's a question here that is close and near and dear to his heart, such as 14 time world champions and such. And I'm going to combine this with something that somebody posted in the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group about David Von Erich and what could have been, which is a thing that a lot of people like to do when they think about David Von Erich. They picture him as being this hugely successful NWA World Champion. And I'm not saying that he wouldn't have been, but I do have thoughts on it and I'm going to combine that with George's question. I dislike the 14 time, 16 time, 20 time, 21 time thing. I dislike it. Let's take Flair for example, and I'm a Flair fan, I really am. I love Ric Flair. I was a huge fan of him in the business. I loved him as NWA World Champion up to a point. Then I thought we should have moved on. So part of the way I think about this has to do with growing up in an NWA territory or NWA member territory, NWA influence fan, which I was. I, when I got a wrestling magazine, I was fascinated with the AWA guys, I was fascinated with the WWWF and later the WWF guys, but I was an NWA guy. I desperately wanted to see an NWA World Championship match because they didn't come around that often and I wasn't old enough to drive and I didn't have the independence or freedom or resource to always get everywhere I wanted to go as a 13 and 14 year old. But I loved the NWA philosophy. I love the 3, 2 to 3 year reign and then you move on. And they got caught in the 50s and 60s with Lou Thes. And not to say that Lou shouldn't have gotten it, but there was a lack of people who could measure up to the full standard. And that's another thing that I'm going to work on and do is put together a framework of what it took to be NWA champion and the boxes that needed to be ticked in order to be an NWA champion. So many people look at their favorite wrestler, it's like, he's my favorite wrestler. He should have been NWA champion. He should have had a run. Well, there's so many wrestlers that couldn't tick all the boxes in order to be champion. And so I look at it that way. It's like Howard Bomb, Howard Baum said, I will forever look at matches and cards through the lens of what I saw at the Miami Beach Convention Center. That's his paradigm, that's the lenses. So like these glasses. So everyone, every wrestling fan is biased. Every human being is biased. There is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. There's no such thing as an unbiased opinion or there's no such thing as an unbiased human. It always used to tickle me when I would work with clients and businesses who were going to hire people and they were going to add people to the interview process so they'd get an unbiased opinion, which they actually doubled and tripled and quadrupled the bias. Because anytime a human being is involved, there's bias involved and there are blind spots involved. There are things you don't know and there are things you don't see. So there are always things in your blind spot. And then also as you grow and develop as a human and as you take in material, it shapes your psychology in a way where you now have a bias. Like you put on glasses and you are looking at, for those of you who are watching the video version of this show, you'll get the play acting. I'm doing audio. You'll have to imagine that I just put on my glasses. So now I'm. This is how I'm looking at the wrestling product. And these glasses and these lenses are made up of all my previous experiences, all my likes, all my dislikes, and all the things I would like to see. So when I answer this question, I'm looking at it through an NWA fan and an NWA championship lens. So I'm affected by the way that they did the championship, which was a three to four year run where a title holder would get it and that would play out over the course of time. And that person had to be a very good worker in the ring. They had to be very good on the microphone, they had to be able to sell tickets, and people had to want to see that person get beat. They had to want to see their local champion beat that guy. And to me, that's my favorite formula where, I mean, there's nothing wrong with babyface champions. But even when Jack Briscoe was the champion, people wanted to see a title change. They wanted to see him get beat. No matter how lovable he was, no matter how much he was respected, people wanted to see the belt change. And that's the reason why you don't want it to change. That's the psychology behind it, is you want people to want to see it change so bad, and then you don't give it to them until it's time to give it to them, which in the NWA days was about two to three years. And that was all safe when Sam Mushnick was the president of the National Wrestling alliance because he had the final say so. And typically he hand picked the guy who was up for consideration by the championship committee. He usually weighed in on that and said, I think we look at this person or I think we need to look at this person, or I think we need to look at this person. And anybody he didn't put in there could be suggested by the committee. But most of the time they kind of followed his lead. And we got sort of a handpicked Sam Mushnick champion up to Briscoe. But in the 75 convention, Sam retired. Briscoe was tired. He didn't even go to the 75 convention. He demanded they take the belt off of him. Right. He was at that two and a half, two and three quarter year period, almost three or four months shy of three years. And he wanted out of it. And that's what you wanted from your NWA champion. Flair never wanted out of, was fine with him to put the title back on him. He had an amazing resiliency and an amazing Energy level and all. But so many things happened in the 80s that caused them. It was sort of like a repeat of the 50s and 60s. So many things happened in the 50s and 60s that caused them to go back to thes, Back to thes, back to thes. That happened again in the 80s and early 90s with flair. So many things happened. The David Von Erich thing happened, right, that caused him to go back to Rick the Magnum TA car accident. You know, I think Magnum would have got it in 87, you know, not 86. It was too early. He would have gotten it in 87 at Starcade, I think. And I think that was another reason for Crockett's faltering is I think Dusty's booking plans were all built around Magnum getting the belt in 87. Because everything went sort of sideways there for a while. I also think Dusty and Magnum were so close that it deeply affected Dusty emotionally because not only did it mess up his booking plans for the next three years, but it also was a loss of a close person that he spent time with, he invested in, he mentored, he coached, he tag teamed with him, he brought him along. He was telling him, giving him tips and telling him things to do to help him get over as a baby face, which would eventually ended up, I think, with Magnum in a heel turn. But all that went away just in a moment. And I think sometimes we, as fans, we know what that feels like when it happens to us, but we don't always know how it feels like when it happens to somebody that we put on a pedestal or we put in a. In a category of a Dusty or something. We don't, we don't think about those things, you know, how it affected them. We just criticize them when they, their ideas aren't working right. So, you know, David could have been, I think in the 83 convention they did say we were going to put this on, on David and they were. [01:48:45] Speaker C: Going to go in that direction. [01:48:46] Speaker A: But when you think about the National. [01:48:48] Speaker C: Wrestling alliance and what happened to it. [01:48:51] Speaker A: What was he going to exactly be champion of? I mean, if you look at Flair's reign from 87 on, Flair was the champion of the National Wrestling alliance, but the National Wrestling alliance was Crockett. I mean, World class seceded from the NWA. I think in 85 or 86 they left. Tennessee wasn't part of the National Wrestling alliance per se. They did some great American bashes cooperatively with Crockett, but they had AWA on their titles. The AWA wasn't something you join it was just a designation of cooperation and talent sharing with Vern and, and Jarrett just put AWA on his titles. Actually, they kept NWA on the Mid America title. And so in. San Francisco was out of business. Los Angeles out of business. Amarillo was out of business. Kansas City and St. Louis were not drawing. Florida was on its last legs. What exactly was he. If he would have been champion from 84 going forward, maybe Fritz wouldn't have pulled out. But would David have gone to work for Crockett as the champion? He was not going to save the National Wrestling Alliance. Nothing was going to save it at that point. So even if he would have been champion, I don't know what he would have been champion of. Flair was champion of Crockett. And that's what David would have ended up being, I suppose. But he would have had to leave his dad, which I don't think he would have done. It would have just caused a lot of. I just don't know how they would have worked all that out. And I, you know, I, I think, you know, Barry Windham could have been the champion, but he bolted and went to the wwf. And I think that damaged his relationship with Dusty. And they never really reconciled that relationship fully like it was pre Barry leaving. I think Dusty was always thinking Barry might leave. It was kind of ironic because Tully and Arn are the ones that left, not Barry. But I think in the back of Dusty's mind, it's like, I'm not sure I can count on this guy. Because when 1987 came and Magnum had his car accident, the obvious thing to do would have been to put Barry in that spot and put the, you know, make Flair. And Barry had one of the Flair and Barry had one of the most amazing best matches of all time at the beginning of 87. It was the hour long match or whatever that was on Worldwide Wrestling at the beginning of 87. And then they had another great match at the Crockett Cup. And the logical thing would have been to go with Barry at that point and put him in the Magnum spot as the number two baby face. But that's not happened. That didn't, that didn't happen. Dusty tried to elevate Sting and Lex Luger and he turned Barry heel. So Barry didn't. Wasn't an option. So I mean, they gave the title to Ronnie in 87. That Ronnie Garvin didn't check all the boxes for an NWA champion. I mean, he was great. I watched Ronnie and National Guard armories all over the state of Kentucky all Over everywhere you can imagine with Randy Savage on top. And I've said many times that one of the greatest, greatest series of matches I've ever seen. I think the problem with Ronnie was at times though, when he worked with an inferior opponent, that's where the NWA champion really had to reach down and carry the match. Ronnie just beat the heck out of him. I mean, you can see when he's matched up with a, with a talent on TBS where the talent's job is just to get him over. I mean, Ronnie just tears him up on television and he would do that at times. You know, we had a little ole Anderson type approach where if you didn't hang with him and if you didn't stay in there, he was going to eat you up. And that's not really that. Lou did that too, which has always been a little bit of my knock on Louisiana is that there were times where Lou made his opponent look really bad. He really, you know, put it to him. And really technically in an NWA champion role, that's not what you do. You actually leave with the people thinking their guy could have won. You don't make them look like they can't do anything. Which I think would hurt some guys and really hurt them. Drawing after the champions moved on and left town, or after you've left that pay per view and moved on to another one and that guy still got to be part of your roster and still got to help you draw viewers and interest. You don't really draw money anymore. You don't think about it in terms of that. You think of drawing ratings or you think about drawing interest. And it's the brand equity that the person has. How much emotional equity can the person get with the audience so that they want to see them and back them and cheer for them? So I think that to answer, get back to George's question. I think you dilute that when you get past say three, you know, a three time world champion, you know. Yeah, Harley had it seven times, Lou had it six times, Rick had it 20 some million times. But I think it hurts more than helps. And I'm not putting those guys down. I mean, sometimes it was out of necessity, sometimes it was cause a special deal got cut to give a guy a title push that was needed at the time to help them. You know, if, if you've got a, if you've got an over baby face and all the short term NWA champions, you look at them, you look at all the NWA champions that were short term champions, who were they? They were giant Baba, no bigger baby face in Japan at the time. There was no bigger Babyface. Giant Baba was number one. He was number one in all Japan, which was at the time the most influential company in Japan. You know, and then you had Antonio who got a world championship of his own. You know, he took the NWF championship, but Giant Baba was over. He was a national hero. Winning the NWA title was just something that he had to do to show that he was equal or better than these other guys that were touring the world. Tommy Rich was the most over Babyface in 1980 and 1981, 1982, maybe 1983. He was in all the magazines. He was the major superstar. Babyface who got on WTBs. What does it say about your big time Babyface if they can never win the big one? They're not quite good enough. So what do you do? You get a short term title reign to show that it's possible for them to win, to keep the fans believing in that person. Because there is after the person has had 20 shots at it and they can't do it. You know, I think this is something that kind of hurt wrestling too a little bit because he was a masked wrestler and he couldn't win the title. [01:56:39] Speaker C: Which was a little bit of a. [01:56:41] Speaker A: Diversion away from him not winning it. But I think it kind of hurt him a little bit toward the end of his run that he couldn't quite get over the hump and win the title. Tommy got over the hunt and won the title. So now fans are like, well, he did it once, he can probably do it again. [01:56:58] Speaker C: Same thing with Dusty. [01:57:00] Speaker A: Dusty had to show. Now the first two times, the third time he was the booker, right? So he could book himself in as world champion. But in 79 and in 81, he was one of the top three touring acts in the whole country. It was him and Andre the Giant. Probably him, Andre the Giant and oh Mil Maskers or Bruno, somebody like that, they were the biggest ticket sellers of the entire 1970s around the whole continent of the North America. But he can't win the world title. That takes a little bit of shine off of him. So you let him win the title, you let him get over the hump. And Dusty's big deal was Harley, right, trying to beat Harley, trying to win the title from Harley. And he, he got over on Harley twice and that was enough for fans to believe that Dusty Rhodes can win the world title. So I'm going to go see him tonight because he might do it again. And so that to me is really good psychology. It's really good booking when you stop and think about it. But I think once you get past a three time, maybe four time reign, somewhere in there, it just doesn't mean as much. It's almost like. And I think that's, that's kind of what's happened with the world title now. The titles, all the titles is, they really got devalued in the 90s and the 2000s because they were changing every week. And that's how guys got to be 12 time and 13 time and 14 time. It became more of something that was a prop for television. It was part of a television show. [01:58:49] Speaker C: Rather than something that helped you draw. [01:58:51] Speaker A: Money in the houses and in the arenas. And so it became a device for television that just really kind of became the MacGuffin that got pass around and. [01:59:06] Speaker C: You know, it didn't. [01:59:08] Speaker A: It just doesn't mean the same thing. So I think when you get past that many title range, you're diluting the value of the championship. Because really, when you think about it, what should happen is a guy gets in the business in his late teens or twenties and he works and he works and he works and he works his way from the first match to the second match to the third match on the card to the fourth match on the card. Then he finally gets in the main event and then he, he, you know, he starts overcoming monsters and mountains. And then when he gets into his early 30s, he, he has a good legitimate chance at winning the title if he has all these boxes ticked. And then he wins it and he gets it, you know, once or twice, maybe in his 30s and maybe into his early 40s. But then, then after that he's your established guy that goes down the cart a couple of notches. But he's working hard to get all these other guys over. And to me, that's the career trajectory of someone, you know that. And that's all based on old school territory psychology, not the way that they do it today. Today a guy shows up on television you've never seen before, and the next week he's in the featured match on. [02:00:30] Speaker C: The main event on tv. [02:00:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Well, that's so and so and so and so. Oh my God. And the announcers go crazy. It's like, oh, can't believe he's here. Wow. And you've just seen him for the first time and you're listening to these guys put this guy over and you turn on the television next week and it's like, and this week you saw him for the first time last week, and this week, he's going for the intercontinental title, or he's going for that, and it's just not. And I understand you've got. You got six different wrestling shows that you got a book for. You've got 10 hours or 12 hours of television that you've got a. And you're. And you're. You're caught up in the machine. And make no mistake about it, when you're booking a territory or you're booking a promotion, and now guys are booking television, it's a. It's a beast. Anytime you're a content creator, and I can speak from experience on this, it's a beast that's always hungry and you have to feed it. You have to feed that machine all the time. And now guys have this television content machine that never stops, and they have to keep feeding it and they get in ruts. They're human beings like anybody else, and they fall into the habit of going, title change, title change, title change. Put that on this guy. Put it on guy. Let's see if this. To see if that works. And if, if that happens, it just dilutes it all. And if you do it several times in a row, you end up with 10 time, 12 time, 22 million time world champion, and just doesn't mean as much. So. That's a long answer, George. Sorry for that whole diatribe, but I, I like to romantically believe that David, if we would have put the title. [02:02:21] Speaker C: On him, would have been something that would have. [02:02:25] Speaker A: I don't think it would have changed anything. I don't think history would have changed. I'm not a big what if guy, because looking at the business environment of the territories in 1984, it played out. [02:02:41] Speaker C: Probably the way that it would have played out. There's a couple of things that could have been done different, but it wouldn't have changed. [02:02:49] Speaker A: It wouldn't have changed. It wouldn't have changed. Vince McMahon and the plan he had and the business opportunity window that was there at the time that he went through, he went through the window of opportunity. The window of opportunity is only available. [02:03:07] Speaker C: For a limited amount of time before it closes. [02:03:12] Speaker A: And while that window was open, he took advantage of it. And most smart business people do that. [02:03:20] Speaker C: And just, you know, there were some mistakes made by promoters who didn't understand. [02:03:27] Speaker A: Strategy from a business standpoint, and they fell into some traps, and that's what we had. So I don't know that. That none of that would have changed, I don't think, because the People didn't change. You never got somebody in charge of a wrestling company in 1984 and 85 who would have functioned in the way that Vince functioned. He just functioned as a high performing, high level chief executive officer of a company that had a clear vision and he put the right people in place. [02:04:02] Speaker C: On his team to take advantage of the strategic opportunity. And nobody else did that. [02:04:09] Speaker A: So that's what you get. Right. Sorry to talk about it in such technical terms. I would like to hear this last question for this week. I would like to hear about the all south and how they challenged Crockett Promotions in North Carolina and South Carolina and what the internal challenges were. [02:04:30] Speaker C: Did you know the promoter even backed. [02:04:32] Speaker A: One or two of them? [02:04:33] Speaker C: And this is, this is a question. [02:04:34] Speaker A: From Terry Kent, all south, that was Ann Gunkel, and I guess that's who you're talking about. I'm not sure. But Ann Gunkle had All south and it was connected to what I was talking about earlier. She broke away from ABC booking in Atlanta, started her own booking office called Gunkle Enterprises and a brand under the brand of all south wrestling. And I believe Dickie Steinborn was involved in promoting. And I think Dickie was the promoter in South Carolina. He might have promoted North. Somebody promoted in North Carolina also, but not for very long. There was another promoter in Georgia, might have been more than one. And that guy's name is not coming to me off top of my head. But there were a lot of court cases and lawsuits. And some of this you would have to get from Bo James, who is the outlaw wrestling expert. Excuse me. And it could have been that Bo has been talking about this on his podcast. [02:05:48] Speaker C: I'm a little behind on listening to. [02:05:49] Speaker A: His shows, but the question sounds like Terry has been listening to it because there were times in wrestling history where the promoter actually set up their own competition and they were backing a competitor against them in the marketplace to grow the wrestling pie. There were other times where the promoter actually backed them for other reasons that I just don't have time to get into today. But we, we could get into them at some point. It's going to come into play on this series that I'm about to do on Roy Welch for Briscoe and Bradshaw, and I want to save that for those shows. But many times what happened was in towns that the established promoter was running. So let's take Georgia, for example. So in Macon, Georgia, for example, Fred Ward had the contract in Macon, and he also had the contract in Columbus with the building that the city owned and it was an. Oftentimes when you made a deal like that with a wrestling promoter, it was an exclusive deal. And I know in Macon in particular, there was a promoter who wanted to run Macon for Ann in all South. And he filed a lawsuit into court that went to court a couple of times claiming that it was unfair that the city had this exclusive deal with one promoter and he should be allowed to promote and get in that building. And it went to the city council, I think, a couple of times, and it went around and around and around. And as will happen in those deals, you know, he was paying a lawyer to keep bringing this suit back and all that. It ended up being nothing because time was not on his side and they could slow it down in the courts and they could. You know, the city is not going to sit there and admit, yeah, we made a mistake. Gosh, let us go back and correct that. You know, it's sort of like, well, we'll talk about it. We'll put it through the city council, we'll discuss it. We'll see how everybody thinks about. And by the time all that stuff happens, a year goes by, two years go by, and not only are you running out of money to bring those lawsuits back in 73 and 74, but you're also losing interest. And if you're a real entrepreneur and you're about doing things in business that you can make money from, that's about the largest window you can sustain it. Where you're going, you know, I could just go open a car wash, or I could go into real estate, or I could go. There's a thousand other ways to go into business and make money besides a wrestling business. And so if you want a promoter who's going to promote towns for you, they've got to have an entrepreneurial streak about them where they can take the ownership of that town and really make it into something. And if you don't have the right building for that, for fans to come to, to see wrestling back in those days, every single week, then you don't really have much. And I think even in Atlanta, the booking office for the NWA had the city auditorium, and nobody else could. Could come in there. And I think all south ran in Oglethorpe College, which was, I think, in Marietta, or one of those suburban towns out outside. So Atlanta was still getting two shows a week, but they weren't getting two shows a week in the city auditorium. That was just, you know, the NWA booking office. And all south was trying to establish themselves in a totally different place. That wrestling fans weren't used to coming to and on a night that they weren't used to having wrestling on. I think the all south ran on Tuesday night, if I'm not mistaken. Sometimes they ran the night before. The regular booking off of the NWA booking office always ran on Friday night. [02:10:00] Speaker C: City auditorium. [02:10:02] Speaker A: And over time, it just gets difficult to get yourself established. So if you're the leader, this is a strategic imperative. In business, if you're the leader and you have everything going your way, the only mistake you can make is to mess that up somehow. Otherwise, whoever the challenger is is going to have a hard time getting a foothold and getting established and have any chance of getting anywhere near the success that you're having, unless you make a really bad mistake and really mess things up. I mean, you can even go back to the Civil War, and you can go back to the battle of Gettysburg. And Robert E. Lee was this huge, successful Southern general who won amazing, had an amazing win streak of battles. And Ulysses S. Grant was a general that had come to work for Lincoln because Lincoln liked his attitude and what he had done over in west Tennessee in that part of the Civil War. And the big strategic mistake that Lee made was he attacked the high ground, and the Union army had the high ground, and the Southern army had to go up this hill. You've probably heard about this in your history class or whatever. And they had to attack uphill. And all the Union guys had to do was just keep that hill and keep them at bay. And in strategy business, that's all the leader has to do, is they have to maintain the ground that they've established and they've built. And that's something that the wrestling promoters couldn't do in 1984, in 85, they could not maintain their own territory. They actually abandoned. They made one of the most. They made one of the most dire and critical strategic mistakes that anybody could make in that situation. They abandoned their home area. They went out and tried to conquer other area, leaving their home base open. And it took a while for the WWF to invade that territory, but they eventually did, While they were off trying to conquer something they had no business trying to conquer, Instead of just solidifying and maintaining their home ground. The only one that kind of did that was Jerry Jarrett. And that's why he lasted the longest, because he maintained what he had. Now, slowly but surely, as people got exposed from a technology standpoint to this other product and these other stars, and. And they started going to these other shows and the local wrestlers started looking not as good as this glitzy, glamorous product that was being presented over here. And before this existed, they were fine with what they were getting over here. It's almost like you love your house, you love your yard and you love your car. And then all of a sudden somebody moves in next door on the vacant lot. They build this humongous, beautiful house. They drive this amazing, beautiful car and they have this meticulously manicured lawn. And now the very same house you lived in before, the very same car you drove before, and the very same lawn you had before, it don't look so good. And now you're looking over at the other thing and the other thing is bigger, brighter, shinier and looks great. And now the thing that you were totally convinced that was totally content with and totally happy with, now all of a sudden you're not content with it. That's what happened to wrestling fans. All right, thanks everybody. That's our Q and A for this week. I'm going to move on now and wrap this show. Tell you a little bit about my social media channel, Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group. Come over and join us. YouTube channel Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Follow me on x @ Tony Richards 4 subscribe to my substack Tony Richards 4 or the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. You can go do a search. And coming up here on the show next week, we're going to have a total amazing show with historian Michael Norris, who's an expert on the Gulf coast territory. We're going back to south Alabama, we're going back to Mississippi, we're going back to the Panhandle of Florida for the Gulf Coast 1975 wrestling territory right here. Coming up, we got Amarillo in 75. We got Tennessee, Florida, East Texas, a big Thanksgiving show, big Christmas show, big wrap up for the year. It's all coming up here and much, much more. Hey, this is Tony. Richard. Thank you so much for joining me again this week. I so much appreciate you coming in and watching and listening and I'll catch you back here next week on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. From the Richards ranch in western Kentucky, this is Tony Richards saying if you'll be a better neighbor, you'll have better neighbors. Bye bye, everybody.