Episode 41: The Year of 1985 Territory Review, Championship Wrestling from Florida

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today. Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. [00:00:13] Speaker B: It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker B: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:34] Speaker C: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. This is Tony Richards coming to you live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky. Hello everybody from the Bluegrass State. We got another great show in line for you today. We're going to be touring the state of Florida and of course here in January, the entire month of January. On the show we are reviewing the existing territories that are remaining in 1980, 1985, and we're looking at that year in capsule form with our various territory experts. And today Howard Baum is going to be here because he does the Florida show with us. And typically we would be going into 1976 and we are going to touch on the 70s a little bit today. But in line with our January theme of reviewing 1985, it will be interesting to look at the territory of Florida which is in flux. And it had a terrible, terrible tragedy right at the beginning of 1985 on Super Bowl Sunday, as a matter of fact, the the guy who really took Florida to prominence. Prominence. He originally partnered up with Cowboy Luttrell in Florida. He was the number one baby face in the territory and had tremendous feuds, the most notable being with Professor Boris malenko in the 1960s and various other people. And today we have a real insider who is going to be joining us, Bruce Owens, who knew Eddie Graham very personally, very closely. And you'll hear Bruce talk about that on today's show. We'll also talk about a lot of the things that were principles in the territory that kept it strong for so many years. We'll talk about the impact of Dusty Rhodes. We'll talk about Dusty Rhodes leaving in 1984. We'll talk about a lot of stuff in 1985 that I think is going to be critical for us to record exactly what was happening as the WWF was going into national expansion mode. Jim Crockett Promotions was going into national expansion mode. Mid South Wrestling under Bill Watts is going to undergo a brand change at the end of 1985. They've got national expansion on their minds. The World Class Wrestling in Dallas, Texas, has been on satellite for years, has been in syndication across the United States in various markets for years that we're going to talk about in another episode. But what's going on here in Florida, because I think there is a misconception out there among people and the farther you get away from history, you just sort of consolidate it when you're talking about it. And you have a tendency to have a bias toward the end result, which we know the territory in Florida did slowly die out, but in 1985, was it really in that bad a shape? Because you hear a lot of people talk about, well, when Dusty Rhodes left, boop, the territory just went to shambles and nobody came to the matches anymore. And Dusty's leaving did have an impact. But listen in on the show today to someone who was there in 1985, who was very active and knew the hero Matsuda very well, who was running the company at the time and was involved in refereeing in a lot of shows, and he'll talk about that. Bruce Owens is going to be with us today along with Howard Baum at the end of today's show. Of course, I've got some things to tell you about that we're doing here at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, but I don't want to waste any more time. Let's go now to that conversation at the Richards Ranch with my good friends, our analyst Howard Baum and our special guest today, Bruce Owens. Hello again, everybody. Welcome back to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky. I'm your host, Tony Richards, along with our regular Florida analyst, Howard Baum. And we have a wonderful, wonderful show in line for. You're going to be glad that you tuned in today because this is going to be fantastic. We're going to be talking about championship wrestling from Florida and Howard has a very special guest here today that can tell us a whole lot of stuff. So, Howard, why don't you introduce our guest today? [00:05:14] Speaker B: Man, you guys, today we've got a treat for you. It's a full circle moment for me because In September of 1982, a man showed me the way around the ring. He showed me the ropes, literally. He is a locker room leader, an after hours legend, a ring general. He's done everything in championship wrestling from Florida that you can do, from timekeeper to ring announcer to pilot to eventual referee, including famous matches such as race no Brody and Hanson against the Road warriors, the battle of the belts. If you know who I'm talking about, you know. And if you don't, you're about to find out. The world premiere, the podcast debut of the Goat, the NWA troubleshooting referee himself. One of my oldest friends in the business, Mr. Bruce Owens. [00:06:19] Speaker A: That's right. [00:06:20] Speaker C: Wow, man. Welcome, Bruce. [00:06:22] Speaker A: Oh, that's a hell of an introduction to live up to. [00:06:25] Speaker C: You know, you've lived it and that's. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Four years in the making, guys. I first met Bruce in 1982. He showed me the ropes in the Miami Beach Convention Center. He broke in in the early 70s, and man, you're gonna hear some stuff today from the inside of the inside. And I want to let you know that this is a rare daylight taping for me. I usually don't allow to be taped anytime before 7pm because my mouth barely works before noon. But this episode had to come together quick because of the subject matter. I said, we've got to get Bruce Owens. He was there and man, I can't wait to get into it. I'm gonna lay back. Tony and Bruce, do your thing. [00:07:09] Speaker C: Well, Bruce, first of all, welcome to the show. And let me ask you what, what got you interested in wrestling to begin with? [00:07:16] Speaker A: Well, like anybody else, I was a wrestling fan, you know, got hooked on championship wrestling from Florid. My brother took me there when I was young to a live event and, you know, I was hooked anyway, but once you were at the Miami Beach Convention center, and this is back in the days of Joe Scarpa and, and Jose Lothario Louis to La Stroheims and you know, Eddie Graham Malinko and, and. [00:07:46] Speaker C: You know, Sam Steamboat. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Steamboat, yeah. How could you not get hooked, you know, seeing that type of stuff? So the Infernos and Mephisto and Dante and, you know, it was just a great time in wrestling and as a kid where you're 100 believing it and you know, you're going to school and you're doing figure fours on kids and, and, and you know, doing all this stuff, it's, you know, you don't know how to work, so you're just shooting on everyone. And you know, I wasn't the biggest kid by any means, but I think all of us in schoolyard try and wrestling hold stretched each other quite a bit, you know. [00:08:25] Speaker C: So let me ask you this. I mean, obviously we're going to talk about Eddie Graham quite a bit today, but what was it like during the transition in that first golden age that you were just talking about in the 60s where Eddie Graham was the top baby face? What was it like in that transition to Jack Briscoe? [00:08:46] Speaker A: You know, like anything in life, like, you know, my generation isn't going to be the generation that's the younger generations following. So every generation needs their own hero. So, you know, at that time, it's Eddie Graham and Lothario and to lead and. And these guys. And, you know, the Briscoes are coming up and everything. But, you know, you think about it as. As the fans get older, they're going to identify with. With somebody in their age range and stuff. And here was Briscoe, you know, he didn't. He didn't have to ch. Win. He could wrestle. And you know that. I think one of the things that added credibility to the business back then was guys could go 30, 45 minutes in a match, you know, and when the world champion was in there, 45 to 60 was. Was nothing. So how could you not believe in somebody like Jack Briscoe And Dory Funk Jr. When you saw those type of matches? [00:09:52] Speaker C: Yeah, so there were a couple of transitions going on there in that time period. You had Eddie transitioning to Jack. You had Gene Kinisky transitioning to Dory Funk Jr. And then like you just mentioned, there were going to be classics for the next seven years. Just between those two guys, Funk Jr. And. And Jack. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And I remember, you know, Eddie, there was a guy and Howard helped me. I think his name was like Frank Bosch or something like that. [00:10:27] Speaker B: He was Miami Beach PR guy. PR guy down there. Okay. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Frank Basha. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. I was getting confused. Paul Basha. I knew it was something similar, but I'll give you an example. Dory Funk Jr. And this is in the 70s, early 70s. Dory Funk Jr. Arrive at Miami International Airport and Channel 7 Sports is interviewing the NWA world champion and it's on legitimate news. And that was set up by guys like Frank. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:05] Speaker A: You know, who. Who had this. So, you know, the mystique about is it real or fake? Well, there you got Channel 7 news covering the world champion and Jack Briscoe when he came in and stuff on regular sports news at the airport, because they just didn't have the access to these guys. You know, they flew in, got in and got out. So that added that credibility of this new generation because, you know, you're looking at Eddie and these guys that are older and as fans, we legitimize them. But if you're a viewing public on Channel 7 and you're trying to believe this is the hero and he's an older guy, I mean, people aren't going to watch it, you know, that, that interview. But when you go ahead and you had somebody like Jack Briscoe or Dory Funk Jr, you know, and they show a couple clips of the matches during the interview. Now you got credibility, and Frank was instrumental in that because you got to think back in that time of getting, you know, wrestlers on. On primetime sports. And I'm talking about the 6 o' clock and not just the 11 o' clock news. [00:12:21] Speaker C: Eddie was a stickler for legitimacy. And Howard and I have talked many, many times about how you could take a lot of championship wrestling in Florida and it would fit right in with Wide World of Sports, because that was that feel for it. Did Eddie ever talk about that? Did you ever hear him say much about what he was aiming for there with. With the legit part of the business? I mean, I know he had different bookers that came in under him, but he was still the overseer. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:54] Speaker C: Did he ever talk about the realism and the legitimacy he wanted? [00:12:59] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Eddie. Eddie said if. If the fans start yelling fake, like, like you failed, and he says, you have one shot at it every time you go out there. It's got to be real, because you have one week where you go out there and you're real and the next week you're fake. He says you've lost it all. [00:13:21] Speaker C: Yeah. Eddie came up in West Texas. Well, he first came up under the Roy Welch in Tennessee, but then he went to West Texas in the 50s, and he came up under Doc Sarpolis and Dory Funk Senior. And Doc Sarpolos was originally the booker for most of Texas in Houston. And back in the 30s and 40s, when Wild Bill Curry was feuding with somebody or whatever, he. He basically invented blading because he said, our fans are starting to think this stuff isn't legit. We've got to put some realism into this. And he started saying, you're probably going to have to take a chair shot or two legitimately to make sure that fans who are sitting on the front row know that this stuff is. Is real. And so Eddie heard all that, right? I mean, Doc Sarpolos basically invented the false finish in wrestling. And so Eddie came along and modified that and added another false finish or two to matches and innovated that stuff so that the fans would think, holy crap, I thought that was the end. Right. And there were still more to go. So you can just tell by the style that he, you know, he really believed and wanted the fans to believe. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah, there were times that Eddie did, you know, I didn't have me smart enough, but he knew I wasn't dumb, you know, and. And Eddie would say, like, there was a Match. And he says, you think people will pay to see that again? And I would say the Die Hards will, but I don't, I don't think. I think people will want something else next week. And Eddie would say, you're right, you know, so basically, you know, what I said validated what his thought was, but, you know, because Eddie rode with me. [00:15:23] Speaker C: And he was kind of, he was kind of checking to see your level of understanding of the business too, like what you were seeing jived with what he was thinking. Right? [00:15:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, Eddie's thing was every week has got to be better. And I remember and I can't remember who the wrestler was, but Eddie basically said, you better understand that your match tonight is designed to sell tickets next week. And that was Eddie's philosophy. Don't worry about what you think about the match tonight. It's designed to sell tickets next week. So it was always the build up, you know. [00:16:08] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's, I mean, I talk about this all the time. It's. It was amazing that yes, New York, Philadelphia, Boston could draw, you know, 18,000 people once a month. But in the southern territories, we had buildings of five or six thousand that we were selling out every single week, 52 weeks a year. It was a different business model, but much, much, much tougher for a booker. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, you know, you had to not have, you know, only a creative mind for, hey, let's do this or that in the ring. But you had to have that forward vision and I mean, almost for like. [00:16:49] Speaker C: 12 weeks in a row, right? [00:16:50] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I was going to say three, four months out because, you know, sometimes you go in this direction, you got to modify it a little or something, but the story's got to go a couple months out because of tv. [00:17:05] Speaker C: So what year did you start with Eddie and with the promotion and start being more, more around and more involved on a regular basis? [00:17:16] Speaker A: I would say late 70s. You know, like I said, a lot of times it was, you know, being with Eddie and Eddie coming in in the daytime, going to town, I didn't understand everything, but I knew Eddie was in charge and, you know, Eddie would be going in, negotiating buildings and everything. And Eddie was really keen on who was on that front door, who, who. [00:17:43] Speaker C: Else did he have around him during that time that was, you know, you could tell were in charge of a few things here and there. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Well, obviously there was, you know, Duke Yamoka and, and hero, but hero was. He wasn't in the office as much. And I, you know, and I lived in Miami and they were in Tampa, you know, But I don't. I don't know if what Heroes Level was as much. You know, it wasn't like getting into finishes and all this and everything back then. A lot of that was more Eddie and Duke. I mean, at the end of the day, they needed. It was on box office numbers. So if Eddie's running everything and the numbers are good at the box office, then, you know, really, there's no need for any involvement now. If things start to dip now, the owners, everybody wants to, hey, Eddie, what happened here? What happened in Miami or this and that. You know, let's just go. [00:18:45] Speaker C: Let's just go around the horn. I want to ask you about some guys in some different towns and just get your thoughts so that come to mind. So let's do Orlando. Milo Steinborn. [00:18:55] Speaker A: I didn't know Milo as much, but I knew that Orlando was one of Eddie's hot towns, that. That he wanted it to go. You know, Milo was there, but Eddie had definitely oversight over it. [00:19:10] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, I know Ron Fuller had West Palm until he left the territory. I don't know who had it after that. But what about. Did you do much in West Palm? [00:19:19] Speaker A: It was the office. The office had West Palm after that. But remember when Ron Ronnie Fuller took West Palm? That was when they were running double shots, double towns, Right. So, you know, there's another town, West Palms, a dip. But then when we started running Dusty into West Palm, you know, the attendance obviously went up and everything. Dusty just threw money everywhere. [00:19:50] Speaker C: So Tuesday night was Tampa and Fort Myers. For a lot of the 70s, you obviously were in Tampa quite a bit, right? [00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd go in Tampa, but a lot of times I was doing things like at the front gate and everything like that. But Tampa was. Tampa was home, you know, for everybody. And that was. They wrestled. Now you're, you know, you're done early. No. Driving over to the famous Imperial Room. [00:20:21] Speaker C: Howard and I were just talking a couple weeks ago about the Briscoe Funk title change. And we had Don deleon on, and we were talking about how he kind of knew something was going to happen because the cameras were in Miami. Because most of the time, the title changes that were important like that took place in Tampa. [00:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:41] Speaker C: So what was the Fort Homer History Armory like? [00:20:46] Speaker A: It was hot in the summer and cold in the winter, but nothing was as cold as the Orlando Eddie Graham Stadium, because there's this big metal shed, you know, and I mean, the guys would be laying in the ring and the steam would be coming off their bodies in the winter, it was. It was really cold. [00:21:07] Speaker C: I've always heard, I always heard Tallahassee described that way too. Like a big furnace in the summertime. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's amazing, looking back, that the guys could go, you know, 30 to. To an hour in these buildings that didn't have AC and stuff. I mean, a real testament to going out there, because I could tell you, even as a referee in the summer, it was horrible. I mean, you know, one of my idols, obviously, Stu Schwartz. Stu Schwartz, you know, he did a lot of matches and, you know, people used to joke that back in the day he had white pants and white T shirt. But he was a smart guy, staying as cool as you could under the circumstances because those referee shirts are polyester and just cook you. But those guys back in the day, or guys like the assassin in that suit that didn't breathe, you know, you just, you know, you sit there and you got something that's snug on your body and the hood on your head and, and you're. You're out there for 30 minutes, like, just, you know, sweating your ass off and excuse the French, but crazy. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Bruce, I've always wanted to ask you this. You became a referee, which we're going to get into, if not on this episode, then in the very near future. But how did you go from being kind of a, you know, helper to acquiring the skills necessary to be a referee? And, folks, he's not just a referee. Bruce is a ring general. I've seen him lead matches. I've seen him do all kinds of stuff in the ring. And I want to know how you go from being an outsider to even being an insider and having the skills required to be a referee, because the referee's job is big, and a lot of people don't really notice that. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Well, my. It was kind of interesting because I always gave the story about how I went to San Antonio for two months and all this and everything. It never happened. So back in the day, I told Wahoo one time is Wahoo. What do I need to do to be a referee? And he says, count to three. And, you know, it's just Wahoo being Wahoo. And keep in mind, I was an announcer, but I was refereeing in the northern end of the state. And eventually, I think it was Danny Miller said, hey, it's. It's not good that we have an announcer and a referee. And because some of the fans traveled back then and everything, and of course, if something's a hot finish in Miami and I'm an announcer and they go, but you're really a referee, you know, and stuff like that. [00:24:14] Speaker C: But that makes sense. [00:24:16] Speaker A: My, my first match was Mike golden and Dale Vesey. And I told Wahoo like it was a Broadway. And I told him, I'm nervous and you know, I said, I'll eff it up, you know, and he says he just gotta stay out there for 15, you know. So the match, the match went 15, the bell rang and instead of raising both guys hands, I jumped out of the ring and I left Mike golden and Dale Vesey in there. And Dale Vesey was like a, kind of like a tweener, sometimes a heel, sometimes a baby face. But I left them both standing there and I came back and Wahoo said, you warned me, you know, so. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Oh, it's great. [00:25:10] Speaker A: So I told him, how do you. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Go from, how do you go from that to being a ring general? Because I've seen you call entire matches. [00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So it, it's kind of baptism by fire. So here's what happens. So this is Sunday night. Wednesday the guys break down and I think it was the Sunrise Musical Theater in Fort Lauderdale. And now there's no referee. And. [00:25:39] Speaker B: So. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Lester Welch is there and of course he knew and he says, you know, can you pull it off and I'll take it. He obviously didn't see me do that Broadway and leave both guys standing in the ring. But you know, like anyone else in wrestling, I told him, no problem, you. [00:26:03] Speaker C: Know, oh yeah, I can do it. [00:26:05] Speaker A: You know, I'm just looking for a bump that, you know, I'll get. I'll be the only referee. And the long and short. I ended up doing the matches and I think the main event was Windham and Flair. It was either 60 or 90 minutes through and everybody took care of me and, and, but it was baptism by fire. Eddie always told me, just be in the wrong place at the right time. Don't, don't overthink it. Be in the wrong place at the right time. Stick to the corners. But if you're in doubt, just be in the right place at the wrong time. I mean, right place at the wrong time. [00:26:50] Speaker C: Here's something I've always kind of wondered about. Bruce, you'll be able to answer this. How much when a match like that, when you've got Barry Windham, who's obviously at that time coming up to be one of the hottest young stars in the business, and you got Flair, who's got all Kinds of experience by that point. And they've probably wrestled a few times before that. How much of the match was feel versus called? Like how much did they call in the ring and how much did they just do naturally? [00:27:20] Speaker A: Well, also, you know, back in the time, dressrooms were separate, so they would, you know, usually have an idea what it was going to be in the town or the referee would carry the finish over. But it wasn't obviously the, the match. Like now you, you got to have the bell rings and this happens in this spot and that spot and everything. So you know, the way player explained to me one time, like for the match, and keep in mind Barry was younger back then and everything is just tell him we're going to have four 15 minute matches. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Hmm. [00:28:04] Speaker A: And you know, I heard that attributed. [00:28:06] Speaker B: To Dorie Funk Jr. [00:28:08] Speaker A: I. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Somebody said you're so famous for your Broadway's and he's like, well, I just look at it as four or 15 minute matches. And I think that's where that had to have started. If not, you know, whoever told Dory that. But I heard that attributed to Dory. So that's like. And I always, I, I always go back to that when I think about doing some kind of task. Like when Brian Solomon talks about writing a gigantic book, he says you have to eat the whale one bite at a time. It's like divide it up. [00:28:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So I mean I, and I think a lot of fans who are more accustomed to. They've just come along to be fans in the modern era since the Savage Steamboat WrestleMania match, they think everything's written down and scripted and moved by. But, but back in those days, it was instinctual. Right? Am I right about. Yeah. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, guys made their living at doing this and you know, it wasn't like someone's going to say, I want you to do this, this and this because, you know, you bring a guy in from Texas and Texas was pretty brutal style out there and Florida. And yeah, we have the brutal, but we also need wrestling, you know, and guys would wrestle a week or so and you know, I see guys from Texas, within a week they'd migrate into, you know, the Florida style and everything, which was, you know, some violence in wrestling. But the violence was the cherry on top. You know, where in Texas violence was probably 70% of the match and stuff. [00:29:41] Speaker B: Who would be an example of that? [00:29:43] Speaker C: Yes. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Oh God, I would just say, like, I'm trying to think who would was coming. [00:29:53] Speaker B: I mean, it would be earlier than that. [00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know, I would think probably in my first shot in my head would be Bobby Duncan. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Oh, good example. [00:30:04] Speaker C: I know in my. I know in my research for the Dory Funk senior book, I'd learned and found out that Terry actually changed his style to be more of what we know as Terry Funk while he was in Florida. [00:30:18] Speaker B: No way. [00:30:19] Speaker C: He wrestled more Texas style. Growing up there in Texas, like, more like junior and senior. And he went to Florida for a While there in 68, 69, he comes back, and Dory Senior, like, what are you doing? And Terry goes, well, I've learned to do this a little bit different, a little bit more wild, and this, that, and the other. And after a couple of times, Dory Sr. Said, oh, I see. Yes, keep doing that. Keep doing that. Right? [00:30:50] Speaker A: Yeah. It differentiated Terry drastically from Dory. You know, there used to be the shadow of Terry under. Under Dory just obviously like anybody. Jerry Briscoe under Jack and everything. But, you know, when Terry reinvented himself like that, the thought of being Doris brother just. Just went out the window. Terry Funk was his own deal. [00:31:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. It was a very awesome move for us as fans and for Terry's career, for sure. I mean, he kept going to the 90s, for God's sake. Yeah, go ahead, Howard. [00:31:27] Speaker B: No, what was. I missed Terry's babyface run in 74. What was that like? How. How was he as a baby face? And how did it contrast with him, like, two years later, coming down as heel champion? You know, the wild, crazy, healed Terry Funk. How did he relate to the fans as a Babyface? [00:31:45] Speaker A: Well, you know, back then, you know, I'm still fan, even though I'm dabbling and stuff, but nobody trusted him. Everybody thought he was going to turn. Every week, you know, they start running them with a tag partner, and everybody's just waiting for Terry to turn, but Terry didn't. [00:32:08] Speaker B: And if you see some early Terry, man, he is flying all over the place. I thought his prime was, like, the stuff that I saw live 76, whatever. Oh, my God. He was really a bump machine. Like, it's amazing that he made it to the age. He made it because he burned himself. [00:32:26] Speaker A: He. [00:32:27] Speaker C: He made. He made munchnick nervous in St. Louis because he was such a flying, bumping. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Like, I had no idea. Fledgling historian that I am, I had no idea until I saw some recent tape of him. Black and white, early days, lean and mean. Terry Funk. And he was a bumping machine. And I mean, I don't mean for that time. I mean, just like Always ahead of his time. And I mean, he did that every night. And he did it until he was 60. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Often wonder how much pain he lived in. [00:33:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, you just, you just can't do that to the body. [00:33:08] Speaker C: Yeah, he. He did. He, he had a lot. Most the last 25 years of his life. [00:33:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:15] Speaker C: You know, go ahead, Alan. [00:33:17] Speaker B: When I was at this ECW thing for Terry Funk in 1998, they were honoring him. 97. It was around the time of the ECW's first pay per view and they had this tribute to Terry Funk. And Paul Heyman got up there and gave this story and he said, do you realize that in 1989 when funk was going through his feud with Flair, he was working on a broken tailbone the entire time. And can you imagine the pain? And, you know, that's just part of it at a broken tailbone to everything else that must have been going on with Terry Funk in 1989. And he did that entire feud with, I'm sure a couple of pain pills and guts and determination. [00:34:01] Speaker C: Had a terrible elbow infection. Yeah. That he didn't take care of properly. But what was his 76 championship year like in Florida, Bruce? [00:34:13] Speaker A: Well, I mean, Terry, everybody wanted to see him get his ass kicked because obviously, you know, he took our hero out. Terry was just, he was the perfect heel and champion. How would you say, did they think. [00:34:32] Speaker C: He was beatable every night? [00:34:36] Speaker A: I, I think they wanted to, but everybody was smart enough to know, hey, he's Dory's brother. You know, back then, like, like, he's trained by Dory Senior, he's Dory Jr's brother. Like, how they ever going to get the belt off him, you know, and on top of it, he's not a scientific wrestler, you know, and. And obviously the out was always the DQ finish. [00:35:03] Speaker C: So the fans, so the fans sort of smelled the political part of the NWA then and thought the Funks had the political control to keep the belt on Terry. Is that what you're kind of saying? [00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker B: Well, let me say as a fan, this is when I was introduced to Terry and I thought this was his golden era. This is like the classic Terry funk, right. The NWA champion. 76. And as a fan, I wasn't really aware of any of the politics or anything, but he looked the part of a champion. And every time I saw him, either on tv, an interview, or especially live, he was the best. And that's all I saw. And let me just interject, Bruce, you were probably there. Miami Dade. Miami Dade Community College in 1976, Terry Funk worked Andre the Giant. And it was not only the best Andre the Giant match I've ever seen, probably one of the best matches I've ever seen. It was a long match, Japanese quality match. And I was like, holy crap. And I mean, as a kid, I was 10 years old at the time, and I was. And I mean, everything you would want from a match, probably in front of 3,4000 people at a community college. And Bruce, you were probably there. Best Andre match I've ever. I mean, Andre was so agile back then. They had an incredible. Andre was kind of like a larger Terry Funk in this match. They were doing everything. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I actually drove Andre that night. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:36:40] Speaker A: And. But in my head, I'm thinking, you know, that's probably the most the Giants been kicked around. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Do you remember that match? [00:36:50] Speaker A: My God, yeah. Well, you know, you got Terry and Andre. That's like. That's hard not to remember. But, you know, if I could just. [00:36:59] Speaker B: Say you never saw Andre in like a 50, 50 match like that before. But it was so give and take. And it was like, it wasn't like, oh, Andre's gonna mop the floor with him. And Terry was believable because Terry was a big, tough guy. It was great. They worked so great together. I actually have some. Some faraway photos of that that I took that I'm gonna put up for you guys and I'll. I'll lay out. But, man, that was. I'll never forget that match because I never knew Andre was capable of that. Even as a kid, I was so impressed. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Also in my head, going back in time now, I almost wonder, like, would Eddie have allowed that to happen in Tampa? [00:37:44] Speaker B: Because if you remember, it was a ref bump finish, and it looked like Andre was gonna, you know, had a chance. And then there's this big ref bump at the end which saved Terry somehow. And then Andre gave him the big. Andre gave him the big splash. And then Terry caused a ref bump or something like that. You know, they got out of it. But. [00:38:03] Speaker C: So what are your thoughts about that, Bruce? Why. Why do you think Eddie might not have wanted that at the home base town? [00:38:09] Speaker A: Well, the Giant, you always want the Giant to be the Giant. And here, like, keep in mind. Okay, so what was Terry back then? 220, you know, so. [00:38:22] Speaker C: So you think it made Andre, it reduced Andre, in other words? Well. [00:38:27] Speaker A: Well, if you're in home base of Tampa, and I mean, I can tell you, I don't think with a camera they would have ever did that. I think it was Andre just being really generous to Terry because he liked Terry. [00:38:40] Speaker C: I've gotten. I've gotten heat before because I've said and on Twitter and some other places that I thought Harley race slamming the Giant was terrible move. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:52] Speaker C: Because I just don't Great for Harley. I don't think anybody. Yeah, right. But I don't think it's good for the Giant. [00:39:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you're trying to go ahead and say, like, let's go fast forward years later, Andre and Hogan. Oh, he's got him up and everything. You know, the mystique was nobody could ever do anything to Andre. And like I said in Tampa, I don't think Eddie watch and would have went first of all, the Giant could have got away with whatever he wanted because he was the Giant and he could. You know, if Eddie says I booking anymore, the Giant would say, so what? Right. But if you think that, you know, back then on Andre, you know, Terry's kicking the. Under Andre's ass and a 50 50. Nobody else ever that I know of got to get that much out of the Giant. [00:39:50] Speaker C: That's right. Did you ever see Eddie go to the ringside or send someone down there and say, stop doing that or in the match or anything like that? [00:40:00] Speaker A: No, you first of all, nobody usually did anything like that. [00:40:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:06] Speaker A: And if not, Eddie was waiting for you. Eddie didn't have to go to you. The bad news was you had to come to Eddie. [00:40:14] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, were you ever around. Were you ever around when you saw Eddie work with guys after the match or whatever to give them feed? Did that ever happen or. [00:40:24] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I. I remember once and I just happened to be in the right position and I remember Eddie saying the match was a good match and a very good match, and I can't even remember who it was, but Eddie said, I told you to throw three drop kicks, not two. [00:40:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I've heard Kevin Sullivan tell that story. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:51] Speaker C: Where was the. Where was the third drop kick? On the. On the finish? [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:58] Speaker C: So I wanted to ask you too. You said you didn't go to Jacksonville very often when we were talking before the show, but were you around Don Curtis much? [00:41:06] Speaker A: I was around Don Curtis. When Obvious. Probably more in Tampa and when Don was there and everything. But I don't think you could find a better human being than Don Curtis. Like, here's a guy that wrestled and took time in the daytime to work with children, you know, an amateur wrestling. You never hear a bad word about him anywhere. Just a great human being. [00:41:39] Speaker C: What About Sarasota coach John Heath. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Same thing. John was a gem. You know, that's one of the things. [00:41:48] Speaker C: That Eddie learned out in West Texas also, was to be so community connected and have guys around you that were. That, you know, set them up in their towns where they're very community oriented and very community connected and give back to the community for the things that the community had done for the wrestling, but paying fans had done for the wrestling business. And he executed that maybe even better than West Texas did. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:14] Speaker C: Florida. [00:42:14] Speaker A: When John Heath would come into a building in Sarasota, and, you know, you got to go back in the days, the box office was there and people were all in line and everything, but John Heath walking into a building, and obviously he's way past his prime. John got acknowledged by. By a whole line full of fans more than any wrestler. [00:42:39] Speaker C: Wow. [00:42:40] Speaker A: He was the guy in Sarasota. People knew him, always took the time to talk to people and everything. [00:42:48] Speaker C: Obviously, very connected to amateur wrestling. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:52] Speaker C: And so was Don Curtis. [00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's amazing. Like, there's a guy, Jay Goodley, who was one of our announcers, and he wrote a lot with Don Curtis because he lived that in Sarasota and then would come up for TV and everything. But you just. Anybody that knows Don or John, you just never heard so many good things. It's not a couple things. A lot of good things. And John helped me when I was starting and going back to, like, the transition of refereeing. It was baptism by fire. There were things I didn't know. I didn't know look for the camera, this, that, and everything. And. And Don would always pull me aside or not. Don, I'm sorry, John. And John would say, bruce, here's what you want to do is. Is be here, here. And never in a condescending way. And, you know, some of the guys would just, hey, you don't need to do this. You have this, you know, like this. He would always say, here's how you want to be, and. And this will help you. Plus, you get your face on TV more. He would say things like that rather than saying, hey, you were out of place, you know, But John. John was just a great guy. [00:44:22] Speaker C: Go ahead, Howard. [00:44:24] Speaker B: Man, I'm just enjoying this as a fan. I feel like I'm already watching this, you know, on YouTube. Geez, Luis. [00:44:30] Speaker A: All we have to do is go to lunch, Howard, and we can cut Tony out of the deal. [00:44:35] Speaker B: This is so. [00:44:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, Bruce, I'd fly to Florida for this lunch. [00:44:40] Speaker B: Bruce and I have been threatening to get together for like 20 years, but he lives like an hour away from me. I don't do Miami. Bruce is rarely up here. I don't go to indie shows. Bruce is still completely active, like he's a 20 year old. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Where do you live? [00:44:55] Speaker B: I'm in Hollywood. Okay, right on the Hollywood Circle, man. We got to get together. [00:45:00] Speaker A: I went through there yesterday on my way to West Palm. I'm serious. The traffic was jammed on the turnpike. I went through to get 95. I was just. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Well, we got it. The people don't care about this. We got to get together for sure. [00:45:15] Speaker C: So Bruce, you, you were gaining trust from Eddie, you're gaining trust from the office. And many times back in these days, guys that were trusted by the office, they carried the money back from the arenas and did the account and things like that. Were you ever asked to do things like that by Eddie? [00:45:33] Speaker A: I. I was in Aruba and some of us brought some cash back. We did. [00:45:45] Speaker C: So they ran Aruba, ran a show there. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I went. Another time was Aruba Bonaire Curacao. But this was Aruba and quite a story there where I was babysitting a thought it was my responsibility only to find out I was being worked and I valet to Little Tokyo. They basically told me, you need to make sure he's okay. And him and Cowboy Lang. And I was babysitting two midgets for a few days, helping them with their bags everywhere, everything, only to find out I got worked, you know, got stooged by two midgets, little people or whatever you want to call them. [00:46:41] Speaker C: But. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Little Tokyo was a great guy. So if I got ribbed by somebody, I was glad it was him. [00:46:49] Speaker C: You know, I've done some shows on the stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw show, and we covered the life and career of Jim Barnett, who obviously was very tight with Eddie from 73, 74 on through the rest of Barnett's time in the south and all. And Eddie with him and their positions with the NWA and things of that nature. You were around Eddie all the time and so you saw a lot of sides of him. If you had to describe somebody from your perspective, if someone asked you about Eddie Graham, what would you say. [00:47:31] Speaker A: From a wrestling standpoint, always thinking, wrestling angles, everything. Obviously you've heard it that he's quite the finished guy. Probably one of the best from. Obviously you missed the third drop kick. Great match. But you missed the third drop kick. You know, Eddie, Eddie is a businessman and. And you have to understand that Eddie didn't have the formal education growing up. So Eddie learned, you know, how to read and different things and get a pilot's license, especially being blind in one eye and everything. So a very determined individual. The deck. Deck was stacked against him. He was poor, didn't have an education, blind in one eye. If you look back, who would ever said that Eddie would, you know, wrestling? He was a tough guy, could get the job done in a regular fight. And, you know, the deal with Eddie is if you got in a fight, you had to mark the guy, and if you didn't, you were gone. Simple as that. It didn't matter who you were. [00:48:53] Speaker C: I mean. I mean, here's this guy, and I certainly can relate to his upbringing. I probably had a similar one where you grow up out in the sticks. You're just. I mean, he grew up in the rural Tennessee, just around Chattanooga, and basically no way in the world this guy's ever gonna be super successful. Right. Like you said. And he. He found a way to do that. I mean, he was. He was the. One of the. If not the power broker, as Sam Mushnick was headed toward retirement in 75, Eddie was the guy coming up. And I think, you know, Fritz Von Erich had that brief presidency in 76 as the president. But after that, I think everybody thought it would probably be Eddie's ball game from then on. But he had some personal problems, too, that sort of prevented him from doing things like that. He had the respect of. Of every major power broker in the entire wrestling business. But he had some issues, right? [00:49:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And first of all, I've been sober 29 years, and Howard knows me. I ran. I ran hard and been in the wrestling business. It's easy to fall into different traps along the way. [00:50:12] Speaker B: Bruce was a lot more fun back then. [00:50:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But I could still go, whatever. Yeah. So, you know, Eddie. Eddie had his demons drinking and, you know, there were times when, you know, Eddie would fly in. And I know Eddie flew impaired because I saw it myself. And sometimes Eddie flew with a second pilot. The aircraft he owned, it could single fly with one crew member. But, you know, there was times Eddie flew in, and Eddie came in early in the day, and we went to a restaurant, and Eddie. There's no way Eddie was going to wrestle that night. And like the Miami Beach Convention center, there was a phone by the dressing room, and I'd have to call the phone and, you know, and ask for Mike and Mike Graham and. And say, I'm with your dad. He's not gonna make it to the building. And I've got him. And you talk about some of the things of the trust and everything. And so behind the scenes, if we go back to some of your earlier questions, I had no family in the business, and, you know, no offense, I wasn't any real talent. You know, I was a photographer that we talked about, did develop my own pictures, sold those a timekeeper. Because a timekeeper died. So I became the timekeeper. I snagged his tie when they were doing CPR on him and rolled it up in my pocket. And next week I had a white shirt on and I was the timekeeper. And, you know, then later, ring announcer when the great Frank Freeman decided to call it quits. But I. I was ring announcing in other towns and everything, too. But when you say, like, you know, how did you get that quantum leap? I was kind of holding off on that question, you know, a little bit because of. I think some of it had to do with Eddie knew. And I always said you had to be dependable on time. But Eddie knew that no matter what happened to him, if I was there, nothing got out. I took care of Eddie and got Eddie back to the airplane. And, you know, and Eddie wasn't flying when he was drunk back then or anything. I mean, there was another pilot or something, but, you know, Eddie had his battles on and off, and there were years that he didn't, you know, and, well, we've all. [00:53:05] Speaker C: I mean, I have been taken care of when I've had too much, and I'm sure everybody here has, and I've also taken care of people who've had too much, and there's a degree of difficulty from easy to hard as far as taking care of somebody. Right. So where is Eddie? Was Eddie. Was he pretty easy to take care of or was it difficult? [00:53:31] Speaker A: I guess the issue would be, is what time is it? And because maybe he was sobering up some and he knows I can still get to the building and maybe he can wrestle. [00:53:53] Speaker C: What was the. What was. [00:53:55] Speaker A: And now. So stop you. They had already. They had already told the. The crowd that Eddie Graham is unable to appear. He was injured, whatever, or something. So I would always tell Eddie, they. They already said you're unable to appear and you were injured last night in Tampa and. Or wherever the city was if. If that was the case. [00:54:17] Speaker C: Yeah. So it. So you're there. You're obviously got to stay somewhat, you know, understanding and knowing what's going on around and all that. And you're. You're taking care of him. How is that affecting his inner circle? The people that were around him, like coach John Heath and Don Curtis and people like that, were they, did they just kind of not pay attention to it or was it really bothering them or what? How was that affecting the other, other people there? [00:54:47] Speaker A: As killer Carl Cox would put it, it was a well known secret. [00:54:54] Speaker C: Were they, did that, did that bother them as far as their dedication to keeping championship from wrestling going, or was. [00:55:02] Speaker A: No, because they were professionals. But like, I'm not exposed to it. But my, if it was me, I would be, be. If I was, you know, do Kiamoka, you know, or hero or Buddy Colt, you know, stockholders, you know. Well, well, that would have my, that would have our shareholders, I should say. That would be my concern is the, the captain of the ship, you know, we've got problems, you know. [00:55:35] Speaker C: Did anybody ever ask you about or talk to you about that or say anything to you? [00:55:41] Speaker A: No, they. They would just tell me, Eddie, Eddie hasn't been in the office this week. [00:55:46] Speaker C: Gotcha. Well, where I'm kind of headed with this is how did that affect Dusty? And obviously dusty left in 84. Was that any part of that or was that just Dusty looking to do something bigger for Dusty? [00:56:02] Speaker A: I mean, you know, I always say this, and it's a little degrading, but it's. You'll understand the analogy. Wrestling is kind of a pimping whore business. And you're as good as the corner you're on or, you know, your opportunity that day. Right, Dusty, yeah. Eddie made Dusty, but at the same time, Dusty. There wasn't another Dusty, even when he was a heel. So you try to think of, I could take 10 other guys and could I turn them into the American dream with the same scenario? It never would have happened, you know, so, so you have Dusty who's, you know, white hot, and now the next thing is Jimmy Crockett's calling, saying, you want to be the, the booker up here. [00:57:06] Speaker B: And by the way, guys, and the. [00:57:08] Speaker A: Money'S three or four times X for wrestling, plus the booker's fee. [00:57:15] Speaker C: Go ahead, Bruce. [00:57:17] Speaker B: Can you can compare and contrast the white hotness of Dusty and the general excitement generated by wrestling at that time between 1980 and 1984? [00:57:31] Speaker A: I'll tell you what I would like to have. And I don't know if the video's out there, but it would be neat to see. Back in our day, we didn't have a ramp, as you know, the, the right. The doors opened up and the cops took you to the ring. But I would love to see like 30 entrances of the doors cracking open. Dusty going to the ring from all different cities. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:58:02] Speaker A: And you tell me what you got right there compared to anybody else. [00:58:07] Speaker B: Okay, okay. How many weeks ago did I just say I've seen Hogan pops, blah blah blah. Nothing was bigger than Dusty and the excitement that was generated up until about 1980. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:58:19] Speaker B: And I have a photo that I'm going to pose to demonstrate exactly what you're talking about, which is the entire crowd converging on the Babyface dressing room as it opened and Dusty's coming out and walking to the ring. They didn't wait for him to get to the ring. The entire building converged. There is a people around him left. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Their seats and brother. [00:58:40] Speaker B: Yes. And man, I'm telling you guys, you know, for any of you, Johnny come lately, there's never been a thing like Dusty Rhodes and what he did from 74 to 80 in Florida. Now let's fast forward now to 1983, 84. Do you not agree with my proposition that the bloom was really off the rose and Dusty was kind of old hat and that reaction was long gone. And I don't know if it was due to the general atmosphere in wrestling. Dusty's appeal because familiarity may have bred contempt over the years and the lack of top notch heels because it's already been two or three years of Sullivan, which is far removed from Sonny King's army and Humperdinck's army and Gary Hart's army. So I would like you to tell me realistically compare and compass the Dusty Rhodes and the excitement generated in 1980 versus 83, 84. My proposition is he had to go anyway. It was kind of, you know, it was a natural progression. Florida was not what it was a couple of years previous. [00:59:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's only so many slaughters that can be done. You know, like the Pac song. To me, Pac song was probably the hottest angle and, and I don't know if people have talked about it, but there were cities they put billboards up. Tampa especially Gary Hart's Armory. I made on 75 and 275 and everything. I mean billboards through town. I mean, you know, Dusty and PAC song 26 weeks variation matches, tags this, that everything sold out. People scalping tickets because we knew the building was sold out. When you're a couple blocks from the auditorium and there's guys on corners, they're scalping tickets. It was that hot. But you, you know, how many slaughters can he do? And then people aren't going to believe that there's anybody Dusty can't slaughter. So now you relocate them. Whole new crowd, whole new audience who haven't. Experienced. Experienced, yeah. And basically what you got in the Mid Atlantic is the Dusty we had in those. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know what's so funny, Bruce, I always say this Dusty Windham, Buzz Sawyer, a whole bunch of guys fall into this category where they did their absolute best. And people think that they saw their best stuff once they were in the NWA. We know that we saw the best stuff in 1980, 82, when the wrestling world didn't know about it. But what Bruce just said is extremely true because Dusty recreated his entire paradigm, which is he gets some sympathy put upon him and he makes a comeback. That's what he did for 10 years in Florida. Well, now he had a hot. Whole new crew of heels to work with in the Horsemen. And so then you just recycle the whole thing. And that went on for however long it went on for. But Bruce is completely correct in that he took Florida and what was happening there and did it to himself all over again. [01:02:18] Speaker C: Yeah, and they had just, they had just taken over Georgia too, where Dusty was in, in Atlanta was a huge star as well. And they had seen him there and they, you know, Dusty did the best friend turns on him angle forever in a lot of places. But the Oli Anderson turn in 80, so they, they had a pretty ready audience to see Dusty on a more regular basis, for sure. [01:02:42] Speaker B: But I think maybe due to shifting tides in the wrestling business, the availability of hot heels because Dusty vanquished the top names going back from Mongolian Stomper, Jola Duke, King Curtis, Ernie Ladd, you know, the legendary magazine cover names. Fast forward to 1983-84. He's working Angelo Mosca, Kevin Sullivan for two years, Mark Jack, Blackjack. Yeah. You see, in the latter days of Florida, the main baby faces ended up being kind of like, you know, a little played out because you had Barry, who was the workhorse. And Bruce, you'll know this. I only saw him one night of the week in Miami. He worked Frank Dusek badly, Roy Brown, Mark Lewin. I don't tell me he wasn't the workhorse of championship wrestling from Florida to 82 to whenever he left because his matches were the longest, most grueling matches. And again, people think they saw, you know, Barry Windham at his best in the NWA. We saw Barry Windham at his best in 1982 in Florida. Yeah, exactly. I would put that against, you know. [01:03:55] Speaker C: Well, obviously the, the entire year of 1985 is going to be affected by what happens at the very beginning of the year on Super Bowl Sunday where Eddie commits suicide. How did you find out that Eddie was gone, Bruce? [01:04:12] Speaker A: Somebody from Tampa called me. I don't remember. And what was weird is. And trust me, I. At that point, I wasn't. Eddie wasn't around, and I wasn't around Eddie that much and stuff, other than, you know, certain towns or something. But Eddie had said to me one time, we're. We're driving. And where was. I was in Miami. And. Eddie, like, out of nowhere, he's. Eddie's going, how's it all going to end, Bruce? When's it all going to end? And I was like, what are you talking about? Eddie said nothing, you know, And a few months later, you know, this happened. But to this day, that. That I just. I. I remember. Remember him saying that. And I don't know if it was related to what happened, but, you know, I don't know if we were driving for, I don't know, an hour or so, probably back then, and I don't know if he was just talking out loud or, like. I don't know, because we were just. [01:05:35] Speaker C: Just. [01:05:35] Speaker A: I'm just driving, right? You know, and when he passed, it's the thing that, like, flashed in my head, you know, and. And, you know, for me, it hurt because, you know, I mean, Eddie was the godfather, and Eddie let me in. I had no family or anything and no real talent. I didn't have anything that anybody else didn't have other than Eddie knew I was loyal, dependable, and I. I didn't. I kept my mouth shut no matter what I saw. Unless it was something, you know, her. Her. Nettie. I'll give you example, Howard. I don't know if you remember. Fort Lauderdale National Guard Armory. [01:06:24] Speaker B: Never went, but I'm aware. [01:06:26] Speaker A: Okay, so there was. Herb was this big cop. When I say big, he was probably 6 foot 2 and 360. I could outrun him only because he couldn't go far, and I could go further, but here's a policeman, and he has his family on the gate, and he's the one stealing, you know. And I told Eddie, he's got two sets of tickets, you know, and he was setting up extra chairs. And, you know, so any ticket he sold from this role was just right in his pocket. And, you know, so I was loyal to Eddie for something like that, and I. I just happened to see it, and it just seemed odd that only certain people had these tickets this different Color, ticket and you know, just trust me. Bruce wasn't the most honest person earlier in his life. And you know, I'm kind of thinking the way I would think, you know. [01:07:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:36] Speaker A: And you know, so I was always loyal to Eddie like that and stuff. And so, you know, when you lose somebody that gave me a break, I had. What did I have to really offer? The wrestling business. Eddie took a liking to me because of the aerospace background down and you know, way back then I had worked for Air Florida and back then I could fly for free. Air Florida went through the state of Florida and they ran like every two hours and I could go up, back to any city and stuff. But here's Eddie who gave me a break that I would have never got. I know other people didn't get a great referee, Mac Murray and in the Fuller's territory, I don't know the reason if it was because he was close to the Fullers, Eddie wouldn't let him break in, in Florida. And yet Eddie let me work for him in Florida. And Mac was a great guy, great referee and just a great human being. But Eddie gave me the break I never would have got like, like you talk. The talent I got now and you know, back then and how did I get into this, you know, J.J. dillon told me he had a similar background, part time in wrestling to start and everything. And like he said, Bruce, you were dependable and a little bit of you're likable and some of it's lucky, you know. So those were the three things. [01:09:16] Speaker C: We're in the wrong place at the right time. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:20] Speaker C: You know, but I mean there's still, I mean you still got some decent crowds, especially in Tampa that are happening in 1985 after Eddie is gone. How. I mean, I'm sure things were running a little discombobulated as this all came up to a head when Eddie left us. How did things progress in 85 then? What was it? [01:09:45] Speaker B: Who was booking and who was booking at this time? [01:09:47] Speaker A: Okay, so I know Michael Hayes and Dutch were booking, co booking. But I, I looked something up and just in some notes I had. But I'm going to give you real quick. It's going to take me a minute, but that's okay. But here's, here's a bunch of the guys that were in Florida in 85. Okay? Dutch and Michael missing link. David Sierra, the Saint, Jack Hard, Barry Horowitz, Brian Blair, Jesse Barr, Pistol Pez. Raging Bull was in and out. Wild Bill Irwin, Coco Beware, Rick Rude, Percy Pringle, Wahoo. Bugsy, Cowboy Ron Bass, Hector Kendall, Barry Denny Brown, Mike. Mike Goldman, Dale vc, Who I mentioned earlier. Blackjack Mulligan, Mark Lewin, Tyre Pride, Bob Roop, the Devil Kevin, Lex Luger, Frankie Lane, Hercules Hernandez, Tiger Conway, Scott McGee, Billy Jack, Coco Samoa, Grappler, Lady Maxine, Rip Rogers, obviously. Mike Graham, Prince IKEA boy. [01:11:05] Speaker C: A lot of talent there. [01:11:06] Speaker A: Like, you just, you know, just think of that much talent in the state. And one of the things that drew people were the weather, you know, wasn't always the money. But Eddie. And we did battle the belts, I think, that year, didn't we? [01:11:29] Speaker B: How many battles of belts did you do? [01:11:33] Speaker A: Three. I did. Tampa was. Tampa was the first one, Orlando was the second, and Daytona beach was the third. [01:11:45] Speaker B: And you rest in all of them or. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:11:49] Speaker C: You mentioned Michael. You're talking about Michael Hayes. Because the Free Birds were in. [01:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. I should have said that all the Birds were in. Terry and Buddy and Michael. [01:12:01] Speaker C: How'd you think Dutch and Michael did. [01:12:07] Speaker A: Considering things were chaotic? The fact that Eddie was out? What little I know was the owners didn't know what. What they really wanted to do. Like, you know, you got to think, you know, you got Eddie, and all of a sudden, now you don't have. [01:12:26] Speaker C: Eddie, you don't have the final decision. Yeah, we're going this direction, right? [01:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So I believe from what I remember Dutch and I can't remember everything, but Dutch and Michael, they were in, it seems like, to me, about a half a year. [01:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:47] Speaker A: And I think Dutch. I think Dutch went home. Like, I think Dutch went home first. Dutch road with me, and Michael did, too. But I think Dutch told me, Bruce, hey, thank you for everything, but I'm. I'm heading north. And. [01:13:05] Speaker C: When he talks about it. When Dutch talks about it, I think this might have been his first opportunity to be a booker. And he was very excited before he. Before he got there. I don't know, you could maybe tell us a little bit about his. You rode with him a lot. His thought process while he was there. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, he flew in a lot, so I. I pick him up and we ride. But Dutch. Dutch was one of them guys that, you know. What do you think? Like, because Dutch is coming in to uncharted waters, he doesn't know, you know, and obviously knows Florida is different than Tennessee and Texas and other places. And, you know, all I could tell them is, you know, you gotta remember there's no Internet or anything then. So everything's kind of word of mouth and before we finish, I need to tell you the Don Serrano story. Just it's one minute, but don't lose track of that. Okay, so you know, how do we make it work? And the. So the first thing is when Dutch is in and Michael is, oh, you know, who's going to get fired? That's, that's always the first is. And Dutch is like, I'm just trying to give it some direction. So it was like, it's not about bringing in a bunch of guys. We have a whole bunch of guys here. But, but now what happens is guys that are here, they all start trying to find something on the back burner just in case something happens. Because, you know, it's always a story. Oh, we're. Don't worry, everything's going to be fine. Then the booker starts bringing in some of his talent and this and that. So you know Dutch, all Dutch want to do is wrestle. Make everybody successful so that everybody still had a paycheck. So that was, that was that. [01:15:05] Speaker C: What was Michael's. That was Dutch. What was Michael's. You remember much about his perspective when he was helping book? [01:15:15] Speaker A: Well, Michael, you know, was young, creative, obviously the birds were something hot no matter what. And hey, is there a chance we can take a like one minute break? [01:15:30] Speaker C: Certainly. [01:15:31] Speaker A: Okay, I'm gonna set the phone down just for a second. Okay. Yeah, I'll be right back. [01:15:38] Speaker B: God bless you, Bruce. You read my mind. [01:15:41] Speaker A: I'll be right back. [01:15:44] Speaker B: What do you think, Tony? Not bad, huh? [01:15:46] Speaker C: This is awesome. [01:15:48] Speaker A: Uh huh. [01:15:51] Speaker B: I think I just booked my replacement. But hey, I'm happy to, you know, I ain't no historian. [01:15:56] Speaker A: Hey guys, I'm sorry, but the 15 year old little Einstein sister says she's gotta go. [01:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah, go ahead. [01:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the little girl's faster than me. [01:16:09] Speaker B: So I needed a break myself. So man, Bruce, you're the gold man. You're the gold mine. I always knew you would be. Tony's got to be like a pig and beautiful episode. [01:16:22] Speaker C: Just. [01:16:23] Speaker B: As a fan, I say, man, let's just do this forever. I'll talk once every 20 minutes, you know, Bruce, you got the job. [01:16:33] Speaker C: Let's go. [01:16:35] Speaker A: He's got the good, good questions. So that's. He's the driver man. [01:16:40] Speaker B: Beautiful. Because I mean, you're the goat historian and you're the goat. Look at what you are, man. And I mean, I'm just loving this. The people are gonna. Come on, man. Bruce, you gotta tell us right now. You got to do this with us forever. [01:16:54] Speaker A: Okay, hang on a second. I want to show you something my wife will yell because my wrestling room. But see if you can see this. [01:17:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Can you see the Eddie? [01:17:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:08] Speaker A: Okay. And then that said he's hall of. [01:17:11] Speaker B: Fame from what group? [01:17:15] Speaker A: Wcw. [01:17:17] Speaker C: Awesome. [01:17:17] Speaker B: Oh, when Solely gave it to him. Yeah, when Solely gave it to Mike. Yeah, let me. Oh, let's save it for the air though. Okay. [01:17:25] Speaker C: Yeah, so let's go another 10 or 15 minutes and. Yeah, yeah, Dominic, we'll pick it up right here where Bruce is showing us stuff. [01:17:33] Speaker A: Yeah, Mike, Mike, you gotta commit. [01:17:35] Speaker B: You're gonna be our guy from now on. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Right? It as long as I'm alive. So Mike didn't want it anymore. [01:17:42] Speaker B: You're welcome, Tony. [01:17:44] Speaker A: Because of the memory. And so he basically said, hey, Mike gave it to me. [01:17:52] Speaker B: Wow, nice. [01:17:57] Speaker C: So the, the Freebird. This is the first time the Freebirds are in Florida, right? They. Yeah, they'd never been there before. Before. [01:18:04] Speaker A: No. [01:18:05] Speaker C: So that's a. That's a hot new act in, in the state. [01:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:09] Speaker C: What Michael's, you know, co booking with Dutch. So how did. How did things go with that? I mean obviously they. They left there to go to Watts, I think. [01:18:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I. This is little. And I didn't have a bunch exposure with the bookers. Co bookers for. For the business and everything. But Michael and Dutch, because we get to buildings early and everything. And those are two guys that I saw as booker and co booker and I can't remember who was which. I think duck. Dutch was booker, Michael was co booker. It would make more sense that Michael was the co booker that got along like beautifully. Just they bounced their ideas, agreed to something and it wasn't a struggle. [01:19:08] Speaker B: Bruce, how are the houses during this time? Was there a big drop off in 85? Because things were not that spectacular in 84 to begin with. Right. If I'm not mistaken. [01:19:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it wasn't. It was more about keeping it alive and building it. [01:19:28] Speaker C: Yeah, they. They drew some houses in Sarasota. They drew some. I think they did the Sundome that year. [01:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah, the Sundome was always a good building for us. It's you know, Tampa school and stuff. So the Sundome was good. Orlando, Orlando was always a good wrestling town. You know, Lakeland was one of those we drop in every few months and Lakeland was good. Lakeland. So you know, Tampa to Orlando is about an hour and 15 minutes and it's right in the middle between the two cities. [01:20:09] Speaker C: Did any ever. Did Eddie ever talk about after Dusty left, did he ever say anything about the fact that Dusty was gone or was he, he. Was he. [01:20:19] Speaker A: No. [01:20:20] Speaker C: Not happy with it or was he happy for Dusty or how. [01:20:23] Speaker A: No, no, no, I mean it, it was kind of a well known secret that, you know, Dusty was gold. And so here's the thing. So even if Dusty, like we talked about, ran through different opponents and everything and you know, Dusty could slaughter everybody. So the will Dusty win or lose is kind of not the question. Dusty will always win or, you know, survive at the top. You don't want. I'll give you an example. In my business, we hired a guy that, that sometimes is not, not the guy we always wanted, but we don't want him working somewhere else. So you keep them so that he's not somewhere else because he's valuable to you, but he's also could be valuable to someone else. So if you keep them, you're not worried about what he's doing elsewhere. [01:21:29] Speaker C: The year started out with Brian Blair being the Florida champion. But as the year went on it, the Florida title sort of went into a Wahoo McDaniel, Rick rude feud. Right? [01:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:42] Speaker C: How, how did that do? [01:21:46] Speaker A: Wahoo drew Wah was always a good draw and Wahoo was in fresh. So, you know, everyone, you know, like if your kids have been to the matches and now you're a parent, everybody who'd been through Florida and Texas and Carolinas and Georgia so much when Wahoo came in, you got a top draw. You know, you just had to place them to the top or second to the top. And you knew you were going to, you know, get the attendance pop. [01:22:16] Speaker C: I mean, there were only really five or six places guys could go at this point. They could go to Tennessee, they could go to World class, they could go to Watts, or they could go to Crockett, or they could go to wwf. What were the guys thinking back then as far as when I'm done here, what was their mindset about? What were they wanting to go then? [01:22:42] Speaker A: Some of the chatter was thinking the territories are still going to survive. Other guys thought get on the big ship with wwf, but they didn't want to be a character. You know, all of a sudden you lose your wrestling identity, right? You know, because you're wrestling, but you're a garbage man or, you know, you're the Coco. Yeah, Coco with the bird. And you know, so, you know, and Coco's one of the legit little tough guys in the business. [01:23:22] Speaker C: City Tennessee, just down the road here. [01:23:25] Speaker A: There you go. [01:23:27] Speaker B: I gotta ask you before I forget a very important piece of this puzzle. There was a very, in my opinion, poor taste Angle done after Eddie passed, where the Freebirds were disparaging the deceased Eddie in front of Mike. And Mike came out to defend the family honor. And of course, in wrestling, anything's good for business. And of course, I know without asking that of course the Angle would have Eddie's blessing. But what was Mike's attitude during this time and in particular, maybe doing an angle or a feud based around the Free Birds disparaging his recently deceased dad? [01:24:11] Speaker A: You know, for me, even though I was in the business and I just. This was my own personal view and kind of where I was going with some of the other stuff. Stuff about the guys going to the different territories. You didn't talk much because this guy would go, oh, I heard such and such say this. And next thing it goes back to the booker. Well, if he thinks he's going to go to Mid south, let him go now, you know, so individuals didn't say much, you know, because. [01:24:43] Speaker B: No, but I mean, I mean. [01:24:45] Speaker A: No, but I'm saying that's back to the earlier thing about Tony's question to the Mid south wwf. [01:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, but I. [01:24:53] Speaker A: Didn'T like it only because I thought there's. There's another way to draw money. [01:25:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:01] Speaker A: You know, I'm looking at it from the fan's perspective. [01:25:04] Speaker B: I thought it was deep and shocking. I'm sorry. [01:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that, you know, hey, will it draw money? Of course gonna draw money because it's there. But, but, you know, I was like, there's got to be a way to be more creative than. This is your. This is your best shot is to do this right. And the fact Eddie would always like to make money. But I think Eddie. Eddie wasn't looking at a scenario. I'm going to commit suicide. [01:25:42] Speaker B: It offended me. I didn't like the taste of it at all. [01:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I. To me, I'm surprised. [01:25:49] Speaker C: I'm surprised Gordon set still for it. Actually, you know. [01:25:55] Speaker A: I just thought, you know, back then for everybody involved, it's their job. But I just thought, like, you guys can't do better than that to draw a house. [01:26:07] Speaker B: And did it draw? [01:26:09] Speaker A: No, no, it didn't really do anything. I mean, the feud was the match. But I think like, once the guys are wrestling a week later, they're not thinking about the interview. [01:26:23] Speaker C: Is there any way that you can put yourself outside the wrestling bubble and just think like a Tampa citizen or a citizen of the state when they hear that this guy that they've heard for the last 20 years or 25 years has been this community Leader with the Boys Sheriff's boys ranch and all of this community stuff that he did and the amateur wrestling and all of the stuff that Eddie did to be a citizen of the community outside the wrestling business. What the average person think about Eddie once he was gone? Were they. Did they think there was something fishy about it, or did they just think. Or what. What do you think they were thinking? [01:27:12] Speaker A: I. I think like everyone else, big question. Why? [01:27:17] Speaker C: You know, because I don't think they thought of. I mean, obviously they thought of Eddie and wrestling together. [01:27:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:25] Speaker C: I think Eddie transcended that in Florida. I think they. [01:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:28] Speaker C: Of him as a legitimate businessman. You know what I mean? [01:27:31] Speaker A: Well, he was on. He was on TV with, like, senators from the state and everything and different awards. I mean, legit awards. Not stuff that, you know, Eddie had a senator do on his own or anything. But, you know, Eddie was. No, you know, I think when they looked at Eddie, the first thing came was it wasn't. Oh, there's that fake thing. It was more fake business. It's. There's Eddie that. That guy does a lot for charity. So I would think that, you know, I'm not saying kids, but I'm saying adults 25 up probably view Eddie as. Eddie does a lot for charity, and. [01:28:17] Speaker C: He did a lot for the wrestling business because of that, I think. Yeah. So the Freebird angle with the disparaging stuff about Eddie doesn't draw. What did it do with that? I mean, where did they go from there? [01:28:31] Speaker A: It just. From what I remember, and I could be off, but I'm believing at that point, all the birds weren't there. I think Gordy had went. If I remember right. I think Gordy left. Howard did. Did Gordy leave? [01:28:52] Speaker B: He did. Yeah. [01:28:53] Speaker A: Yeah, Gordy left. And, you know, Buddy was kind of the trash talker on that deal, but, I mean, it would only be Michael and Mike Graham and Michael Hayes. And if Buddy. I mean, it just. The interview's over. It's just you sitting in an arena two weeks later, you're really trying to remember about what he said about his dad or, hey, these guys are going to fight, you know, it was. Did it grab everybody? Oh, my God. This was on tv. And get a buzz for a week or so about tv. But, you know. [01:29:37] Speaker B: And it. And it wasn't even the right. I mean, the way to do it done. [01:29:41] Speaker A: It was done and over. [01:29:42] Speaker C: Like. [01:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah, like the way. The way to do that correctly with a little tweaking was the Bob Roop, Steve Kern pow Thing. [01:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:50] Speaker B: And that Feud had legs. So much so that we're talking about it 50 years later. Yeah. As opposed to. I just. I was, you know, I was a kid at the time, and I'm like, that's. I didn't know how they were gonna broach the topic, but I'm like, wow, that's bad. Like, he just came out and disparaged Eddie Graham and Mike is there doing an angle that's bad. Let me ask you this. What was Mike. Did you detect any change in Mike psychologically during this period? How do you think it affected him? Obviously, it wasn't anything to be happy about, but did you notice any. Any drastic change in Mike around this time? [01:30:27] Speaker A: I wasn't around Mike as much, but I saw him quiet and you know, back to the Eddie thing. Like, let's let Eddie be remembered for his good. Not that the last word we say about Eddie, was he committed suicide. [01:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:30:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:50] Speaker B: That part of it. That really sums it up, because that's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. [01:30:54] Speaker A: All he had to do is say, your father was no good. This. This, you know, like. Like that. But the last thing we need everybody remembers, you know, for the good that Eddie did, was he's committed suicide. And you also have to remember back then, you do have kids and young people watching. [01:31:17] Speaker C: Right. [01:31:17] Speaker A: Because we had an audience all across the street of every age. And now, you know, suicide, you're. You're bringing a different element in that doesn't need to be in wrestling. You know, couple. [01:31:32] Speaker C: Couple other things to mention, which is going to make us all feel old. But even though it seems like just yesterday, the summer of 85 is the year that one of the biggest television wrestling stars out today was born. Cody Rhodes was born. Was born that summer in June of 85. And then the other thing was the WWF came in and ran the Knight center and ran and drew about 5,000 people there. What were the guys thinking about the WWF being in Florida? [01:32:08] Speaker A: Well, obviously it's a threat, and then also it's an opportunity. There was a guy, and I don't know if you remember him, Howard, but Jimmy Young, he was a electrician or plumber, but he wrestled on TV for. Sometimes under a mask, but he wrestled for us on Miami Beach Convention center. Double shot it across town, about 20 minutes away because he's already in his gear. And then he worked for WWF at this on the same night. Again, a lot of this stuff, people got away with stuff because there's no Internet, nothing tracking anybody. [01:32:49] Speaker B: Right. [01:32:50] Speaker A: But there was a curiosity factor and obviously the concern, you know, because, you know, it's like the outlaw wrestling in the time, that's like setting up an Apple card in front of the grocery store, you know, so, and this is real, because this ain't some outlaw group. You got a national brand with TV coming into where you are. And a lot of the people, some of the guys had jumped ship. So some of the fans followed the wrestlers, you know, that's where it was. Whether or not you're putting butts in the seat or not, Right. So if you're a wrestling star and you're putting butts in the seat, they're going to go to the WWF show and see who they want and vice versa to the nwa then. [01:33:43] Speaker C: And then that, that Labor Day weekend or somewhere around that Labor Day, there is when the first battle of the belts happened at the Sundome in Tampa. Yeah, with the Hurricane and that, that was an early attempt to syndicate a wrestling event. We didn't have pay per view. I mean, the Starcades had been closed circuit. But the battle of the belts, they broadcast that, I think it was Hubbard Broadcasting. And they put that in 15 markets. They put it into Dallas and Boston and Charlotte. And let's just run down that card real fast and then we'll get your thoughts about it, Bruce. But in we had Hector and Chavo Guerrero beat Rip Oliver and Lynn Denton under the mask as the grappler. [01:34:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I took my first bump ever in that match and I said to Chavo, where do I need to be? Says, don't worry, I'll find you, amigo. And he did. [01:34:45] Speaker C: Coco Samoa defeated Rip Rogers. Kendall Windham won the Florida title by beating Jack Hart. And then the match we mentioned earlier, the AWA World Tag Team Champions, the Road warriors, beat, or they didn't beat, but they battled Stan Hansen and Harley. Race to a double count out and you ref that match. [01:35:07] Speaker A: No, no, I don't think I did that one. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know that I did. Jack Kendall, Windham's first title change, because if you look, I counted the two and when I'm coming down with the three, Kendall's already coming up, up, you know, and I, I, of course I banged the three because it's the title change and everything, and the camera's gotta catch it, right? Or do whatever they can in editing and stuff. But that was, we had a hurricane off the coast. We didn't know if that thing was going to be a go or not. And obviously with all the financial investments, everybody had got into town like Two days early because, you know, we didn't know if that hurricane was going to get us enough and shut down the airports. [01:35:58] Speaker C: And then you had Nick Bachwinkle defeating Frank Lang. And then on top, it was the. [01:36:05] Speaker A: NW Somebody no showed. I think Rick Martel no showed. [01:36:09] Speaker C: I was wondering. [01:36:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:36:12] Speaker C: Which Martell would have been the AWA champion? Right. So he no showed. He was the AWA world champion in 85. He dropped the belt to Hansen at the end of the year, if I'm right. [01:36:27] Speaker A: It was Martell that no showed. [01:36:29] Speaker C: It probably would have been, because that's the battle of the belts. Right. So they. [01:36:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there you go. [01:36:34] Speaker C: They probably had him there for. As a champion. And then. [01:36:38] Speaker A: I know they were hot. I know they were hot. I know Matsuda was there, and Matsuda was hot. Like when Martel wasn't. It was Martel. He wasn't coming. Yeah. And, you know, Hero just had honorable relationships with everybody. And, like, you know, this is our big deal. The belts, like you say about all the belts, everything. And he no showed. And I don't know what excuse he gave, but there was no reason not to show. [01:37:13] Speaker C: And I'm sure it's. I mean, this is eight months after Eddie's gone and there's been this discombobulation and the different bookers and Dutch leaving, and they're probably thinking, man, this is our big. You know, this is going to get us back on track, this battle of the belts. We got all this invested in it. And I could see where he'd be pretty upset. That that key piece. I mean, that's your semifinal, you know, on this big card. Because you got. [01:37:39] Speaker A: While who was booking that. That would have been Wahoo booking at the time, too. [01:37:44] Speaker C: And he worked on top. Wahoo worked on top in the match against Ric Flair. Yeah. [01:37:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:52] Speaker C: Anything else you remember about that. That card or that day? [01:37:56] Speaker A: Just pissed off at Martell because there was no reason. And, you know, plus, it was a big opportunity and big payday, you know, to be in. And the fact that the roadies made it in and there's just no reason for him not to show and he didn't show. [01:38:19] Speaker C: Were they happy with it other than that? [01:38:23] Speaker A: You know, from a perspective that there was a hurricane looming and we had some intermediate power outages that you'll see during the show where the lights flickered a few times and stuff, it was the best that we could pull off because keep in mind, it was bringing in names to get our guys over. [01:38:49] Speaker C: Yeah. And I was a tape trader at the Time, because it didn't get into any market of television that I could, I could see at the time. And I, I think I had a satellite dish, but I don't think I could find it or something. So I couldn't wait to get that tape. I, and I remember at the time when I got the tape and I saw the show, I'm like, man, Florida's gonna make it. You know, Florida's, Florida's gonna be okay after watching that show. [01:39:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it gave us hope. And then obviously we did, you know, battle of belts two and three, because. [01:39:23] Speaker C: It was in the context of pro wrestling USA and Tennessee and Crockett's working together and they're coming into Lexington with the Great American Bash Tour and they're drawing, you know, eight and 9,000 people. And you turn on and you see this big show in Florida and you think and everything, you know, the WWF isn't going to take over the world. I mean, as a Southern wrestling fan, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking, okay, we're going to hold this, we're going to hold this together. Then in October, Wahoo took the title back from Rude. And I guess that is where Rude's not there much longer than that. He goes back to world class, I think, because they were going to put their, their brand new world championship in world class on, on Rude. [01:40:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:13] Speaker C: What, what do you think about Wahoo as a booker? [01:40:21] Speaker A: Obviously, with all the experience he had and being on top as a wrestler? I, it's not a dig at Dusty because Dusty rode with me and Dusty helped me a lot and everything. But Wahoo was a wrestler that main evented. Dusty was more an attraction. You know, Dusty was, you know, the promo guy and everything and the bionic elbow and everything. So if you compared the bionic elbow to Wahoo's chops, where do you think credibility was? [01:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah, sure, that's a good analogy. Bruce, let me ask you something. I always try to ask people for a heartwarming or a good natured story about Dusty. Did you ever see, like, and I know you were good friends with him, he traveled up and down the roads with him at different times. I mean, can you tell a story that would humanize him to the people? Because I know a lot of the stories out there, the preponderance of them are about him being not too nice to the fans. [01:41:35] Speaker C: Superstar. [01:41:36] Speaker B: No, I was good friends with Howard Brody, as was, as was Bruce. And he told me some great stories of Dusty as an actual human being. And I know that Bruce probably has some too. So I'd like to hear at least one good story about Dusty being nice and self aware and self effacing and humorous. [01:41:56] Speaker A: Well, I know one time he offered to pick up the bill for the table and, and you know, a couple of other guys at the table, including me, were about to say something and I, I said, done. Thank you. Like, you know, I just saved everybody at the table some money. But Dusty had a good side of him. I mean, he's a, the, the booker in many cases is loved by a few and hated by many. [01:42:27] Speaker B: Not just the Booker, though. I mean, as a person, as a backstage. No, what I'm saying. Walk into buildings. I've seen how he is. Have you seen him drop that, Use his real voice, you know, just be a man. Not the jive gimmick. [01:42:44] Speaker A: I've seen Dusty in the car with the Dusty voice for hours. And I remember Blackjack Mulligan saying, drop the list, Dusty, and tell me what you're trying to say. Dusty had had a few beers and blackjacks in the back. Can't understand them, you know, and you know, I mean, Dusty took care of me and I don't know if it was because of Eddie, you know, that I got decent paydays and stuff and you know, but after, after Eddie, Dusty, you know, he had me come up for the homecoming and everything. He took care of me. I mean, Dusty always treated me good and I, I would hope that it was that, you know, like back then they needed me for a ring announcer and a tux and everything and. [01:43:46] Speaker C: He. [01:43:46] Speaker A: Treated me good and, and trust me, Dusty, all Dusty had to say is, I don't want to use them anymore. And that was it. I mean, Dusty had me. What was the guy's name? And he was the black gentleman for wwf. He was a ring announcer caught in the scandal. Mel Phillips. Okay, so I don't know what happened, but Dusty wanted me as the announcer in West Palm and not as a referee for a while. I don't know what the deal was, but he said. And I just said. And I showed up that night and of course he's there. I've never met Mel Phillips or anything, but. And Dusty and jj, you know how that building was. We, we met in the back in that wraparound hallway. And Dusty says mel needs, we need to fire Mel. And Dusty says I'm the baby face. So jj, you do it. JJ says, JJ says I'm the heel and that's okay, but he says his Bruce's new job. So Bruce needs to fire him. [01:45:15] Speaker C: So. [01:45:16] Speaker A: So, you know, and. And I'm still young and I, you know, and I go up to this guy and he tells me to fuck off, you know, and of course, I already got the lineup and everything. And then. And then JJ says what he say, said off. And so. And I wasn't gonna say Dusty said or J.J. you know. And so Dusty, Dusty being Dusty, says, you know, tells the police. See that man over there? And, oh, yeah, the announcer and everything. So now he tells the cops that. Tell him he needs to leave the building and he's. The office said he's no longer the announcer. So now the police fire him. [01:46:14] Speaker C: Mel Phillips fires Mel Phillips? [01:46:16] Speaker A: Yeah, the police. The police fire Mel Phillips. [01:46:21] Speaker B: I never knew he was down here. I never knew he started down here. [01:46:24] Speaker A: He did some WWF shows. He was doing WWF shows, house shows. And then I don't know. I don't know who was assigning the announcers, but maybe someone thought, hey, we'll get the announcer. We'll get some intel or something. I don't know what the deal was, but somebody found out that we had the WWF announcer. And basically I. I assume that's why they wanted them out. But I don't know, you know, but it was, who's going to fire him? And finally we got the police to fire him. [01:46:56] Speaker C: Good move, you know, but go ahead. [01:47:00] Speaker A: But, you know, Dusty was Dusty when I was with them. So here's a funny story. And he did kind of drop character that night. We go into a liquor store after the matches, going to the airport on the private charters. And there's a liquor store with a bar on it. So Blackjack Mulligan and Dusty go in the bar. At the bar. I'm sorry, the liquor store. But you can see into the bar. And of course, Dusty comes in and Blackjack people spot him. And I never forget this drunk coming up to Dusty and going, oh, my God, it's Flapjack Mulligan and Rusty Dotes. And. And it was, you know, it was just that moment where Dusty couldn't keep a straight face or blackjack. And. And they both signed autographs, but they signed them as Flapjack Mulligan and Rusty do. [01:48:13] Speaker B: That's tremendous. [01:48:16] Speaker C: So that momentum from the Labor Day weekend, from the Battle of the Bills, that. That kind of continues because in November at the convention center in Miami, they draw five or you guys draw 5,000 people. And Coco Samoa beat Jimmy Young Lady Maxine defeated Peggy Lee Pringle. Hector Carrero over Prince Ikea. Wahoo McDaniel beat Ron Slinker, the martial artist. Barry and Kendall Windham. Beat Lex Luger and Purple Hayes, who was Mark Lewin, who's probably over 50 years old at this point. We talked a little. We. I wanted to ask you about Lex Luger because he comes in this year, his first year in the business. Early on. What was Lex like during these times? [01:49:14] Speaker A: I'm trying to be nice to your podcast. [01:49:17] Speaker C: That's okay. [01:49:18] Speaker A: Not. Not. He's just so full of. And full of himself. [01:49:24] Speaker C: I mean, I think everybody knows Lex is a different guy today than he was back then. [01:49:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:29] Speaker C: Just looking for your perspective of it. [01:49:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I think Bob Rope and someone found him on a golf course or something, and he just thought he was it. He had no respect for the business. And. And I actually remember at the clash of champions, and I'll jump right back to where we are, he wouldn't even. He wouldn't even blade himself. So they had slam him on the hood of the car and JJ Bladed him. [01:50:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:50:05] Speaker A: Scared to blade himself. Bob Root bladed him before because he wouldn't blame himself. He'd. Pretty boy. He. He just thought he was it. I. I never forget one time when he won the Southern belt, he just walked in, threw it on the ground, threw it in the corner like it was a piece of. You know, and the guys looked at him and he said something like, I'll be in Hollywood next year or something. He just. He was not liked and he was tolerated. [01:50:44] Speaker C: The next week, the next week or so, on the 19th in Tampa, Wahoo puts him over, as you just said, for the Southern title. And I think. I think the perspective about him then was that he's a bodybuilder. That hero Matsuda had trained to wrestle a little bit. But I think people thought he's probably going to be gone to one of the other two bigger organizations at some point, which did happen. [01:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:18] Speaker C: But I think the ray of sunshine in all this is that you're still drawing 4 and 5 and 6,000 people to some of these buildings at the end of 85. So things didn't totally fall apart after Eddie wasn't around. [01:51:33] Speaker A: And you got to be careful with the Miami figures, because one of my jobs was to call in the newspaper and throw the numbers. [01:51:48] Speaker C: So on. On 27. Now that you say that, on November 27th, the reported number that I have for that is 5792. And that had. That had Dusty and Magnum and Wahoo and a six man with Ric Flair, Oli and Arne Anderson. Would that have been Fairly accurate. [01:52:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that one would have been fairly accurate. And when we get into that Don Serrano story, I'll. [01:52:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I haven't forgotten. I haven't forgotten. Let's do that. Now. What. What's the Don Serrano story? [01:52:21] Speaker A: So I was young, good looking, and Don Serrano, you know, he. We're. He was trying to chase on my potential reset. Okay. And so. And he kept, like, interfering, like just, Just trying to, you know, I'd be somewhere and he'd show up and sit down and just, you know, and I'd have to move with the Riazat. And. And so what I did, because I called in the results for certain towns. I jobbed him out for over a year. [01:53:05] Speaker B: Which he did to himself anyway. I mean, it's not like he was. [01:53:09] Speaker A: Yeah, but I. The most I ever gave him was a DQ win, but I jobbed him out 90% of the time. And you got to think, back then, the other promoters like Bill Watts and everybody, they went by newspaper clippings, right? And what the results were. Because Bill, I was pretty tight with Bill Watts, and I had actually bought the Mid south collection from belts from Bill. And I would send Bill some of the clippings and Bill and I have been friends for, for decades, but I job Serrano out forever. [01:53:53] Speaker C: Wow. Do you still have those belts? [01:53:58] Speaker A: I, I put them into a millionaire where the money was insane that, that I got for him. I, I bought them from the cowboy for 22, 000. And the name plate where they spelled Ric Flair R I C K on the big gold belt. [01:54:16] Speaker B: Wrong. [01:54:17] Speaker A: That went to a guy that's. I'm blank for his name right now, but he's a historian for the Mid Atlantic. And I do have the Fuller belt from the territory. The ring use belt from Continental. No, Southeastern Championship Wrestling. I have that and I've talked to Conrad Thompson a little on that. If I let it go, let it go to him or Milliken. But, you know, I had all the Florida belts and everything, but, like, I'll give you an example. I bought the Windham Wyndham's belt, the WrestleMania belt from Barry. Barry gave it to me for like 2000 just because I always hauled them around and everything. And I bought Rotundos on an ebay auction, but I sold them for 15,000 each, cash. [01:55:11] Speaker C: Wow. [01:55:12] Speaker A: And this is back in what, whatever it was then 80 something. [01:55:16] Speaker C: Was that Dick Bourne that bought the belt from you? No, no, no, Dick Bourne, the. The Mid Atlantic guys wasn't him. [01:55:23] Speaker A: No, Dick Bourne might have been the guy that got the, the nameplate, I did it through Dave Milliken that because he was a big historian and there's a book, there's a book that's written in it. He creds me for the finding it and then him getting it in his possession and everything. It just, I. I like the guys that preserve the history because I got. [01:55:49] Speaker C: The belt, I got the book right over here on my bookshelf. That's why I wondered if it was there. [01:55:53] Speaker A: Yeah, they're just good people that do that. [01:55:57] Speaker C: It's. [01:55:57] Speaker A: It's unrewarding and it preserves histories of people like myself or Howard or people that love it, so. [01:56:04] Speaker C: You bet. So that, that November 27th card, I should mention too, that was in Miami, that drew 5,000, 792. That was the night before Thanksgiving. So that was the night before Starcade 85, which had the big Dusty broken ankle angle where he was coming back in the main event against Flair. So the work and relationship here between Dusty and Florida, that's going to continue to go on for the next couple of years. Howard, do you have any other closing thoughts about 1985? [01:56:35] Speaker B: Well, plenty. And I think we could do at least a three parter on this because we haven't even included encroaching outsiders like an independent group known as the iwa, which I know we don't have time for in this episode. [01:56:48] Speaker C: Right. [01:56:48] Speaker B: But there was a bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes that I was privy to between. Let's do a teaser for the next one. [01:56:56] Speaker C: Okay. [01:56:57] Speaker B: Between the iwa, led by Wild Bill Wenhold and Beverly Shades, who were doing a pretty good production out of North Florida. And I have to say, without the absence of a top baby face pound for pound, doing better shows than Florida. There, I said it. And will use that as a teaser. And all I want to say is I think this is the dream team. Let me speak every 35 to 40 minutes. This is a fan's dream come true. Having Bruce introduced to the podcast world, having Tony get to do his thing with my friend Bruce Wrestling world. Thank you. You're welcome. Happy New Year to you guys. Thank you for everything. And for me, this has been a delight. We are going to see more of Bruce. [01:57:47] Speaker C: Yes. [01:57:47] Speaker B: Thank you everybody. And happy New Year from the Sunshine State for me. [01:57:53] Speaker C: Thank you, Bruce. Appreciate you, man. We'll have you back. Okay. [01:57:57] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Tony, for everything you do. And Howard, likewise. We'll get together. Good health to everybody in 2026. [01:58:05] Speaker C: Well, I hope you enjoyed that look back at 1985 in the territory of Florida, that was still going. And you heard they had several shows drawing in the 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 F range in 1985. So fans in Florida, even though the WWF was coming into Florida and they ran shows there and drew pretty well, they had Mr. Jerry Briscoe on the Vince McMahon team, and he was very familiar with those buildings and those building owners in Florida, and he was helping with those shows down there. Of course, as a Florida resident, longtime resident and businessman, that that was a tremendous help to Vince McMahon and the WWF in that 1985 national expansion. We've talked about the great team that he put together with Jim Barnett, helping with television, and we will talk about that more as we go on. Today's focus was on Florida and how about Bruce Owens? I mean, he loves the business of professional wrestling and what a great guest. And Bruce will be back on the show, I promise you, because he came in in 73, 74, and so he could add a lot to our shows going forward with Howard Baum and I when we discussed the Florida territory. So I'm sure we'll have Bruce back. Thanks a lot to, to him for joining our show and being a part of what we're doing here to document territory wrestling history, which is what we do at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And this history show that we do is made possible by you. I mean, if there's nobody out there listening to what we do, watching what we do, supporting what we do, we have nothing. So I originally envisioned this as a place for people who love the Territory era of professional wrestling to be able to go back and to learn about it and find out about it. I always say if you want to get your PhD in the territory era, then you need to subscribe to my substack channel, Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, because I publish a wrestling history newsletter every single day called the Daily Chronicle. Speaking of the Florida territory, I had that in mind this week because I just did a Daily Chronicle with where my feature article was on the life and career of coach John Heath. And you heard Bruce talk about him today, who was the primary promoter for championship wrestling from Florida in the town of Sarasota. And so if you subscribe to the Daily Chronicle, it's absolutely free. It'll show up in your inbox, in your email every single day. It's also published on our website at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel substack Channel. If you want to support us in a financial way, that's pretty easy as well. We call that being A premium investor. And so if you want to be a premium investor to what I do with this documentation of Territory era wrestling history, It's a suggested $5 a month and $60 a year. So you can subscribe and you'll get premium content that I write. I just released the year in review of 1965. We still have 75 and 85 to go in that series. I also just published my 31 great television announcers of the Territory era series. We just did this week profile number eight on the great Bill Mercer of World class championship wrestling. So we'd love to have you as a subscriber at the pro Wrestling time Tunnel substack. We also have a YouTube channel. We just passed 500 subscribers and that may not be very many to a lot of people, but to us it's fantastic that we cross the 500 subscriber line. That means we're growing and getting new subscribers every week to our YouTube channel. We are getting close to 3,000 people in our Facebook pro Wrestling Time tunnel Facebook group. So we have a lot of people that are supporting us. Thank you so much for your support. I'm humbled by it. I'm grateful for it because it means you like what we're doing here and we're going to continue to do it because of you. You can also follow me on X, which is my largest social media channel with almost 18,000 followers. Tony @ Tony Richards 4 the number four at Tony Richards 4 on X. Coming up next week here on the show, we're going to Texas and world class championship wrestling. My friend Lance Peterson, it'll be his first time on the show. We've got a lot of first time guests going into the brand new year here and Lance will be here to talk about world class championship wrestling in the year of 1985. And that'll be next week right here on the pro wrestling Time tunnel wrestling history show. Thank you so much for all your great support. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. We'll catch you here again next week. Don't forget, if you want better neighbors, be a better neighbor. So long from the Richards ranch and goodbye from the Bluegrass state. This is Tony Richards saying love you, mean it. Talk to you later. Bye. [02:03:28] Speaker A: Bye. Thanks for tuning in to the pro wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in in for another great episode next week. Interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode. [02:03:45] Speaker B: Soon. Don't you dare miss.