Episode 64: 1976 Territory Review AWA

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today, [00:00:08] Speaker A: covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello again, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. I'm your host, Tony Richards, coming to you live from Western Kentucky here at the bunkhouse of the Richards Ranch. Appreciate you joining me again this week. I got some fantastic stuff. We're going to be going to the AWA in our 1976 Territory Review Series. And I've got my special guest analyst and deep, deep knowledge historian for the American Wrestling Association, George Shire, who. I mean, George goes back to the very beginning of the awa. And, you know, I just want to say I got a couple other things to tell you before we get to George, but I just want to say that I've just note, I don't know if I've just adjusted my antenna in my biases when I look at my social media interactions or I look at the comments that people make on the things that I post, but it's amazing the effect that videotape makes on impressions that people have of the wrestling business and of the territory era and in particular the guys who were working because so many of the territory stars are at the very tail end of their career when videotape captured the matches and the shows and this, that and the other. The AWA is a great example of this. I mean, those Showboat in Las Vegas shows on the AWA television shows in the mid-80s, you look at them and you think, boy, this territory is not very vibrant or whatever. But it, starting in 1960 when the AWA was formed and it broke away, it was the old Minneapolis NWA territory and it broke off this huge geographical swath across the country to become its own wrestling federation, which is just really a brand name for the territorial loop that Vern Gagne and Wally Carbo had bought and cultivated from the stickers and you don't get from the videotape that's available now, you got a huge recency bias problem because you don't really get the glory days and the superlative wrestling action and performers from the awa. Now, those who lived in the territory and watched the television show every week and went to the events, they don't have that bias. They have A bias toward the awa, but they don't have that recency bias of thinking that it's not very exciting based on the videotape. I mean, because they saw the shows live, going back into the slate 60s and 70s, I think a Joyce posture and. And George and some others who were those fans who went to shows and knew the guys and all of that, they don't have that recency bias that a lot of people have who either weren't born until much later and never saw anything and don't have a sense of the total history or whatever. But today we're going deep into the Midwest powerhouse that was the AWA in 1976 in all its glory. I mean, we're talking about classic stars, brutal rivalries, championship dreams, a great run in 76 in the first full year with the world title for Nick Bockwinkle managed by Bobby Heenan, and all those unforgettable moments that George is going to provide a lot of color around and a lot of commentary around these great events that made the AWA one of the most respected territories in the entire North American continent. So if you. And I know you're listening to the show because you love territory wrestling history just like I do, it's the whole reason the pro wrestling time tunnel was created. And part of the reason is, even though I didn't know I was doing it at the time, part of the reason that I do this is to fight off that recency bias that the videotape era created when some of the territories were flaming out. But man, seeing them back in 1976, which we try to provide a lot of, that's one of the reasons I try to really work on my storytelling skills. Because I want to be a person who can paint the picture that even though we don't have videotape, paint the picture of what was going on and provide a somewhat entertaining flashback look at this history that you can. One of the great things about I was in the radio business for years, and one of the great things that we really worked hard at back in the 60s and 70s and the 80s was we really worked hard because we knew that people could only hear what we were saying. They only could get the audio, and the rest of the picture had to be filled in in their minds. So when I was putting staffs of air talent together, which I did a lot in the 80s and 90s, I really tried to hire really talented people who could go on air and not take a long time about it, but in a very short amount of time because you know, most of the time we're on music formats and people like music. They don't particularly like talking unless it's very entertaining. And so I used to tell my staff all the time, I don't care what you do for the most part within the rules and regulations we abide under with the fcc, you do what you got to do. But see if you can tell a very compelling story within just a short amount of time. Paint that picture in the listeners minds. You know, sports play by play. Guys like Jack Buck with the Cardinals or Harry Carey with the Cubs, they were just masters at that. So here when we're covering territory wrestling history in these years prior to where we have a lot of videotape, we really work hard at trying to paint the picture so that you can envision the things that were going on and the people involved. So if you like territory wrestling history, please hit subscribe and the bell there on your podcast app so you never miss a trip through the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel because we're working hard to try to provide this wrestling history in the 1970s and before and beyond. And step through the Time Tunnel with us. George and I are going to head back to the land of All Star Wrestling and big time wrestling that fans across the Midwest couldn't get enough of. This episode of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnels, brought to you by our friends at Grizzly Up Soap Company right here in Western Kentucky. After a long night digging through old AWA footage or watching those classic body slams and suplexes, maybe you need to freshen up a little bit with something that can handle the heat. Grizzly Up Soap Co. Handcraft Small batch all natural goats milk soaps in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Using premium ingredients and bold masculine scents. I have used up all my Kentucky Bourbon and now I'm using the Deadly Weapon soap. Man, does that. It smells incredible. It looks fantastic. In your little soap. I got a couple of really nice soap trays and that deadly weapon sitting on that black soap tray makes my it's a little bit like home decor. I mean, it really looks great. It smells incredible, leaves your skin feeling great and it's tough enough for any pro wrestling fan. Whether you're an adventurer or just want something gentle for the whole family, they got you covered. Check them out online www.grizzly up soap co.com or stop by their shop in downtown Hopkinsville. Tell them Tony from the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel sent you to the Grizzly Up Soap Company. Keeping wrestling fans clean and smelling like champions. All right, so it's Time to go to our time with George Shire now here at the Richards Ranch. As we go back to 1976 and the American Wrestling association, we're sitting and talking, and it's one of my favorite things to do is sit and talk to this fellow because since I have formed a relationship with him a couple years back, I have exponentially grown in my wrestling history knowledge because the guy's been doing it for so long. He's been such. So involved in so many things, including the Trago Stairs hall of Fame and Waterloo and the Cauliflower Alley Club and so many different things. And I first, when I decided I was going to do a podcast, he was one of the first people I contacted because there was going to be nobody who could talk about the AWA like this guy, George Shire. How you doing, man? [00:10:13] Speaker A: I'm great, buddy, and thanks for the kudos there. That's awesome. And I echo right back to you. I think this is a mutual friendship that I love every day. [00:10:21] Speaker B: I meant every word of it. I mean, you. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Me too. [00:10:24] Speaker B: You have made me so much better just through our association with each other and some of the things that we talk about and some of our conversations, if people could actually hear those, those would be very entertaining on their own, you know. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Before we hit the record button. And so we're talking about the awa, of course, and last year we did a couple of shows around 1975, and we talked about one specific show where Bockwinkle was made the world champion and Vern Gagne's title reign came to an end. So 76 is the first full year that Nick is the champion and other events that go on in 76 that you're going to tell us about tonight. And as a handy dandy guide to keep us on track, you have one of your books on your end, I have a book of yours on the other end. So we should have plenty of stuff. I've got the Minnesota's Golden Age of Wrestling, which is a year, and I'm [00:11:25] Speaker A: sitting here with my AWA record book. [00:11:27] Speaker B: I need one of those. We were just talking about that. And this one is a year by year analysis of things. And so I love this book for what I do. And you've got the full results that you were able to gather for the entire decade of the 70s over there in your book. So we should have plenty of information. [00:11:48] Speaker A: You know what I wish? When you hold up that Minnesota book, I wish you could see the actual manuscript. It's about double of what it is. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Oh, I bet. [00:11:56] Speaker A: And the Minnesota Historical Society press that printed it, editing and cutting and page count and word count and all this stuff that got into it. Boy, so much of it ended up, as they say, on the cutting room floor. But I have the actual manuscript, and I have it bound. And when I look at it, I go, man, the problem is I can't print it. They own the rights to the book. So there's an example for you. When you have somebody do your book, if you have someone do it, technically they own it. I can't do anything else with it unless I have their permission and their blessings. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Well, the cool thing about it, too, is that the book that you have over in your wrestling room, I mean, the AWA was such a large territory geographically in the United States. I mean, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, North Dakota, even up into Manitoba, Canada. And I'm sure your 1970s results book has a lot of. I mean, this is a Minnesota book that I'm holding. So it's pretty much got the state of Minnesota. But that book on your end's got, I'm sure, all kinds of great shows in it. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah. What I did, Tony, on the results books that I put together, they are basically, year by year, every single town with the cards and the results. And then I include pictures, and I do. When you get. When you get copies of these, you're going to see this. But for those ever interested. And I put trivia notes in there and explain different things about some of the cards or some of the characters, if they came in under different name. And I put all that in there. So it's really a nice little chronological history of every. And then, like I told you, I still find new matches or new cards or I get some results that sometimes I got a card where I don't have all of the results, when I go through newspaper clippings, et cetera. So it's always an ongoing job. That, man, I live for, I love. [00:13:58] Speaker B: It's a disease. We gotta be thorough. I mean, we just keep thinking we're gonna find one more thing, and we usually do so well. [00:14:04] Speaker A: And when I do, and I know you can relate, when I do, I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning that just opened up that package from Santa Claus that I wanted. And. And of course, Nick Bockwinkle, he described it best to me. He just looks at him and he says, you're sick. You got the story standing in my room right behind me. He says, you're sick. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah, but. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Love you, Nick. [00:14:28] Speaker B: So coming into 76, Buckwinkel is. He's got this feud going. You correct me if I'm wrong, but he's got this feud going with Larry the Axe Henning and also Pampero Furpo. What else is Bach Winkle up to here as we enter this brand new year? I. I think 76 is one of those years. And nothing against any other years, but it's one of my favorite years because Bach Wink on the awa, Bruno in the wwwf, and Terry Funk in the nwa. Those are. Those are three great champions that held their titles the whole entire year. [00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and, you know, it was unique, Tony, because actually, it came as a surprise to many folks when Verne decided to drop the title finally to Nick in November 8th of 1975. So basically, at the end of the year, and I wanted to point out something too, what was unique about that is Vern Gagne entered the ring that night, November 8th, and he did not have a title belt. He was not wearing a title belt. And that's because of the infamous July of 75 event that took place down in Davenport, Iowa, in our friend Joyce Postian's Neck of the Wood. [00:15:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:48] Speaker A: When Verne's title belt, the one that you see sitting behind me, a replica of that particular. That's a replica. But that belt, Verne's belt was stolen from the ringside table, the announcer's table, and the fan ran out, and Joyce was at that match, that card, and [00:16:09] Speaker B: that was known as the Police Gazette belt, right? [00:16:13] Speaker A: The Police Gazette belt, yeah. And the later was found, but the jewels had been taken from it, which I always kind of chuckle. I say that, you know, the guy that stole it couldn't have been too bright because the belt intact, would have been worth a lot more than whatever he got from what, selling the jewels. So Nick didn't have a belt. And when Nick won the title on the night of November 8th, of course he wins, but he doesn't get a belt presented to him, which is always ceremonial when, you know, the new champion takes the belt from the old champ. It's always good to see that transfer. But in December, it was about a month and a half later of 75, Verne had commissioned the new title belt, which later we have heard people refer to as the inmate belt, because it was made in a Denver prison. And, you know, I found out they make more than license plates in the prison. They do belts, too. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:11] Speaker A: But beautiful belt, as everybody knows, the one that Nick wore. And so as we entered into January, he finally had A belt. And that belt looked great on him. It just, it was, it was made for Nick Bockwick. So, Larry Hennig, I was just going [00:17:29] Speaker B: to say for our younger fans too, you may know or you may not know, titles didn't change hands really very often. Not like they would later where, you know, I mean, you got these 15 to 19 time champions. I mean, we didn't have that back in these days. Yeah, it was, it was a big, it was a huge event when a world title changed hands. [00:17:51] Speaker A: It really was. And what was good about it in those days, Tony, is most of the time the average fans had no idea that this would be the night. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:00] Speaker A: We, you know, we didn't have any, any, any way to figure it out. I had mentioned in previous podcasts that Nick was promised the title. This is behind the Scenes from Verne. Nick had been promised the title from the day he came to the AWA in 1971. He came here in December of 70, but from 71 on. And there were circumstances that made it a little bit longer that he didn't get it. But when he finally got was because Fern was 55 years old, he was slowing down a little bit and he just wanted to spend more time behind the scenes in the office, taking care of business in the office. And you know, nobody back then Tony knew that he was the boss. Well, you know, it was always based on Stanley Blackburn. [00:18:51] Speaker B: I don't think fans really even today. I was on a between the ropes podcast with a couple of guys here the other day and I was telling them about. Vern was the biggest, one of the biggest sports television stars. And night in the 1950s he was a huge star. Which enabled him to start the AWA was based on his huge reputation that he had. He had a, he was, he was very, very well respected and very well thought of. He was the Joe DiMaggio of wrestling. I mean, and you know people rightly so give thes his props. But Verne was a huge television star. [00:19:34] Speaker A: Well, then we go back to the old Dumont, as they call it, network in the 50s when it was a national feed that showcased guys like Luthez, Vern Gagne and Killer Kowalski and Gorgeous George and Buddy Rogers and UConn, Eric and Vern. Honest to God. Ironically, I was just talking about this last week at one of my wrestling presentations here at one of our history centers. And Verne basically was so popular, Tony, that obviously we didn't have the outlets we do today where you had things get big like with Hulk Hogan. But Vern Appeared on a lot of the national television shows. A lot of older folks. You remember Art Linklater, of course. Well, Verne Gagne was on with him, and Verne was on with Jack lalanne, a great exercise guru of the day. And Verne had a. A board game made, produced by. By him, you know, try to pin Vern Gagne. And it's a board game. And he was. Especially in Minnesota, he was so recognizable. [00:20:44] Speaker B: Well, I was going to say, too, if. If St. Louis was Luthez's town, Chicago was Vernstown, I mean, because of the dumont network and because of Frank Kohler. I mean, people. And Vern would eventually get Chicago as part of the AWA and draw a lot of money there because he was so over in Chicago. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Well, and it was Fred Kohler in Chicago that had originally created what they referred to as the United States Championship, which Vern Gagna was, you know, one of the first guys like Wilbur Snyder and the Bruiser and Angelo Poffo and. And Hans Schmidt. They all eventually held that. That particular United States title. Gene Koniske held it. [00:21:27] Speaker B: But Verne was so over in the entire United States because of network television. [00:21:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:34] Speaker B: That. I mean, that title, that US Title, really fit him. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Sure. And, you know, a lot of people don't realize when you think of the region eventually that became the AWA during the 50s and into the early 60s, Verne literally was on the road around the country. Tony, when I've done his results records, the guy was in Boston, he was in Columbus, he was in Tampa, he was in Fort Worth, he was in Houston, St. Louis, he's out in California, he's in Oklahoma, he's in the Pacific Northwest. And he literally. He lived out of a motorhome. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Well, that was a good old Jim Barnett booking. I mean, it wasn't. Jim Barnett was booking him in all those places. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, he. He just was so popular that in. In Minnesota, anybody, even if you were not even remotely connected to wrestling or cared about wrestling, people knew who Verne Gagno was. And he was in the news regularly for charity events. He was actually a very generous guy. He believed in helping. He did a great job of always supporting the University of Minnesota, his alma mater, and he would sponsor the young wrestlers, the amateur wrestlers. He just, probably, in hindsight, he will never get all the credit he really, truly deserves. And, you know, a lot of times that some of the newer generation, they hear about how things happened in the later 80s and Verne had issues and Vern. Vern became kind of A different person at the end. And it's a lot to understand, but he was, he was just mom's apple pie. [00:23:15] Speaker B: And a lot of that was coming to, as you mentioned, a lot of that was coming to the end in 75 and Nick was coming into his own as a singles world champion. So. Yeah, and Larry Hennig was one of the guys they were using to get Knicks run off the ground. Right. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Well and the deal with Larry, you know, Larry had become our, basically our top baby face from the middle of 74 going forward. And Larry was usually a hometown boy. He stayed close to home, he traveled around the awa but when he would go to another territory, it'd be short lived. He basically stayed close to home by his choice. He was very much a family guy. He had all his kids, he wanted to keep close, he didn't want him switching schools. So Larry stayed home, let's say. And in 1974, in the summer, he made the save on TV, saving Greg Gagne from a beat down by Bobby Heenan, Ray Stevens and Nick Bockwinkle. And immediately this turned pretty boy Larry Hennig into Larry the Axe Hennig. And I tell you what, he, he, he, he just was so popular. So over. So you get through that year about, about a year of Larry being on top, he was logical to be one of Nick's first contenders. [00:24:47] Speaker B: And if, if you saw him like you say, if you saw him in the 80s, you didn't really see the peak. Larry Hennig, I mean even if you go back to 1976 and 1975 in Florida where he made a few appearances with, as a heel with Bob Roop, Larry, Larry Hennig could still, was still very mobile, you know, and could still get around really well. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Larry was always popular in our territory, whether he was a heel or a baby. I mean, obviously when he was a heel he was hated to the ceiling. But when he turned baby, he rivaled both Vernon Crusher as far as our leading baby face. And he just had everybody behind him. [00:25:34] Speaker B: And then the other, other catalyst she had there was of course Heenan had come in and managed, had managed Bockwinkle and Stevens. And Ray Stevens kind of left the picture because he went back to Amarillo to work down there. But Heenan stayed as the manager of Champions with Nick and then was building what was known then as the Heenan family. [00:25:58] Speaker A: You know what was unique in those days? Tony, I mean, generally speaking, having Heenan as your mouthpiece. It was a little odd at first that Bobby, who was so good on the Mic and so. Just so creative and believable to have him with Nick Bogwinkel, who himself was so good on the microphone. And, and Nick was that kind of a heel where he was so articulate. He very seldom lost his cool. He was more condescending to his opponents. You know, kind of that arrogant nature and the smugness. And you would say, well, normally why would Nick being as good as he was, that why did he have Heenan? But they just made the perfect combination. [00:26:45] Speaker B: I was just talking about that with Steve Giannarelli the other day when we were talking about 76 WWF where I'm like man superstar Billy Graham. I mean, not very many talkers better than him, but yet. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:26:58] Speaker B: With a manager. And I'm, I'm growing up in the South. I'm just so accustomed to the manager being with guys who really weren't that great. They were great in the ring, but they weren't that great on the stick. [00:27:10] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:27:11] Speaker B: And Heenan and Albano and Freddie Blassie and those guys are interesting examples of being with wrestlers who really were great interviews. But they had the manager anyway. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And Heenan just played such a good part in it. The only, the only thing that I would say, and this is just me as a more of a serious fan, I didn't care for it when there were those instances when Heenan would be the catalyst to cause Nick to lose or a disqualification, save the title. I was more of a traditionalist. I usually wanted to see the champion and the challenger go tooth and nail in the ring. And let's have a, you know, if we have a disqualification, let it be because the challenger or the champion did something wrong. Not having Heenan do something. But it was a formula that, you know, again, it drew money and. [00:28:09] Speaker B: But they drew well. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Nick is champion. Drew well. [00:28:12] Speaker B: But I'm with you, George. I was used to the NWA model where the champion always went over. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:18] Speaker B: And the belt always was with the best wrestler. And you were not going to beat the best wrestler unless you had a lucky night, you know, or whatever. But. But it was never going to be on any kind of screwjob finish. If you did beat the champion, it was going to be clean. And I'm with you. I didn't like any kind of saves by the factions or the heel managers. I didn't like them saving the title because I thought it's cheap in the title. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Well, and ironically, you and I, we. You mentioned, you alluded to this. We grew up in an era where titles didn't change. Hands a lot, especially with the big three promotions, the awa, nwa, WWF in those days. And with Vern, you know, losing the title to Nick. He had held the title without interruption since August 30th of 1968 when he took it back from Dr. X. And Dr. X only had it for two weeks and Vernon had it for two years before that. So had he not given up that two weeks, he would have had about a nine year run. [00:29:37] Speaker B: And you know, I was just going to say, I think that the, the way the NWA was set up was brilliant because fans in their local area could see a title change and it didn't have to be the world title. You know, they could see a, their regional champion that was the number one contender, could lose every three months or so and they could get satisfied with programs getting blown off and titles changing, but then the world title could stay intact. And I just thought that was the, that was great about the way the NWA booked it. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Well, and generally the formula for the champion in those days and they did this with Nick. To the nwa, you know, the champion had to, to appear to be beatable, that so and so had gotten a fall over him or so and so had the best of him throughout this entire match. And then through some, some move, the champion saved his belt for that night and they could draw a rematch from that. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Well, that contender, the contender was legit, right? So it really came down to who the best wrestler was in the world title match. And then you left all the kabuki finishes and all the DQs and you left all that out of it. And then the contender was so credible a loss didn't hurt him because the world title champion was the one who went over and he should go over. He's the best, right? So it logically made a lot of sense. [00:31:10] Speaker A: I always had this contention and this is just me. I always felt that when you win the title, whichever wrestling title it was, it made sense for a guy to hold it for a while because if you, if you win tonight and then he wins next week and you win the week after and then the week after that, it's like it dilutes it so badly. You know, everybody's champion. Well, I know this. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Well, I was just going to say the NWA painted itself into a corner there where they didn't have, I mean, Harley had to move on. He had it for four years, four and a half years. So they had to move on from Harley, but they didn't really have a great follow up to him. It was almost like the Same way with Much Nick. After Much Nick retired as president, they didn't really. Oh, yeah, they didn't really have a great president lined up after Muchnik and the Tommy Rich quick change and the Dusty quick change. And then finally the change to Flair. And then Flair really, he wasn't the greatest champion the first couple of years because they just didn't have that person to go to like they had been very deliberate in doing in the past, you know. [00:32:24] Speaker A: And in hindsight, I wonder, Tony, if that doesn't have just a lot to do with. At that time period you're talking about with the Tommy Riches and Dusty matches and everything. The business was radically changing already by that time, and we were evolving into what was going to become the 80s. That was going to change it so drastically. But you're right that you've got to have that succession in order and they didn't. [00:32:48] Speaker B: Well, the NWA had so many masters to serve. I mean, they had so many promoters and booking offices that had all these expectations and high standards of the world champion. And then they just were like, well, we're not sure that guy's. We'll just book our local guy. Like, I don't think we want Dusty to come in with the title. I don't think we want Tommy Rich coming in with the title. I don't think we want this prior that guy. And they just never had the strong, you know, I mean, Flair did end up being that guy after like 82. But there for a while, the NWA was really lost in trying to find themselves about who their champion was really going to be. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Well, and I've often said, and I mean, this could be debated and it'd be a fun conversation. I've always felt that Harley was probably the last real traveling champion for the nwa. [00:33:44] Speaker B: Well, I don't want to take anything away from Rick because he did go to Japan, he did go to New Zealand. He traveled his butt off there in the 82, 83, 84 period. Yeah, but so many promotions went out of business and the membership dropped down to where it was just Portland and Ron Fuller and the Crocketts that he became a Crockett champion. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Well, it changed. And there's nothing we can do about that. No, I was going to share something with you. I just happened to glance at it. This is ironic. 1976, which we're talking about AWA. We actually had two guys that had been in the AWA for a little run in 76. One was Bob Backlund and the other one was Khosrow. Viseri, and they actually wrestled each other a few times. As I look at the. I just looked at the first couple pages here of the results and I said, my God, Backlin to Visery are wrestling each other in some matches. And then how many, Eight years later, guess what happened? [00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Macklin was being. They were grooming him in 76. And McMahon Sr. He got the Missouri title in St. Louis, he got the Florida tag title in Florida. He worked in the AWA a little bit. And that was all favors for McMahon Sr. Of really kind of proof of concept for Backland, being able to travel and be in front of different cities and different audiences and how that would go. I think. I think that was a great example of promoters back in those days cooperating with each other. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll tell you a little behind the scenes story on the Bob Backlin thing. A lot of people you may have heard over the years that Vern Gagna and Eddie Sharkey in the 60s, they had a behind the scenes falling out, let's just put it that way. And basically Eddie Sharkey was on Vern's bad boy list, you know, and when Backland came in and Verne was using him, Verne wasn't really too excited about putting him over to any extent. Even though he had all the credentials that Vern Gagne loved. You know, the amateur background, the actual wrestler background, no gimmick, but it was the Eddie Sharkey factor in there. And then Verne had Khosrow, who he had personally trained Khosrow, Vasari, the Iron Sheik. And I think Verne just wanted to. It was an Eddie Sharkey thing behind the scenes. He wasn't going to do too much with. With Bob. But then, now I've heard this and I'm going to think you probably have that. We know Bob got the St. Louis, Missouri title and he was being. He was doing well in Florida and really getting some pushes. I had heard long ago that it was Vince Sr. I always call him Daddy Vince. He had contacted Muchnik and asked if there was anybody that he could recommend. And Sam said Bob backlit. So I always wondered if maybe Bob would have maybe been an NWA contender at some point for the title and then going to the TRIWF if that changed. [00:37:05] Speaker B: But yeah, I know Eddie Graham recommended Kern when he. Yeah, he did him and but McMahon had. Because he was looking for a Jack Briscoe clone. You know, he was looking for that all American athlete kind of guy. And also. [00:37:24] Speaker A: And Steve Kern back then had the look of Jack Briscoe and he's. I mean they could have been. They could have been brothers. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And his dad had the pow. Just came back in 73 and well, anyway, that the thing was is that he wanted Backland and for whatever reason, I mean, I think it worked out well for him. I think he wanted somebody also that wasn't quite as headstrong. He'd been dealing with Bruno all those years and back one was a little more agreeable not having the. Not having the stroke of a Bruno, you know. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Well, and the big thing over on the east coast at the time, you know, with both Bruno and Pedro Morales, it was that ethnic background that population wise, it seemed to make sense. They seemed to be good draws. So Backlin being the all American boy, I think he was a new look for the wwf. It was still three W's back then. But I was always disappointed they didn't let Superstar keep it for a little bit more. But he got it for a year, which was the first heel that had a title more than a couple of weeks in the, in the WWF in those days. Yeah, I think normally they were. The champions were transitional. [00:38:42] Speaker B: Yeah, McMahon just had his formula and he wasn't going to deviate from it. But I was happy for Superstar to have it that long and he had a great run now. Absolutely one match that I really wish I could have gone back and attended live in these days. Pampero Furpo and Baron Von Rashke because both guys were still really healthy in these days. And I'm just thinking that was probably a great match they had. [00:39:12] Speaker A: They had a long run in 76 and it was a battle of the claw holds. Firpo obviously Baron had his claw and Furpo had a claw hold similar that he called, whatever that meant. Verbo was one of those unique characters, Tony, where basically by the mid-70s he had been in the business for a long time, but he could still go and he was literally a wild man. He had turned baby face in the early 70s in the AWA. And when you talk about somebody who is your anti hero in 1970, here's this wild hairy beast of a guy who raves and rants and he's got this big head of bushy hair and a beard that goes all over the place, out of control. And then you had Baron von raschke in the 70s who was at the peak, I think in the mid 70s, at least in the AWA, he had the German character down to a tee and he really, really was hated. And let's point out to folks that still in the 70s, even into the very early 80s, wrestling was always playing the race card or the anti American card. You know, Raschke was a no good dirty German and that they pushed it because America, you know, going back to folks that don't remember, but America was at war with Japan and Germany. And during the 50s and 60s into the 70s, we had Japanese wrestlers all over the place. We had German wrestlers all over the place. And they were always, they were always called dirty Japs or dirty Germans. You know, they just had no, no PC in those days. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Yeah, the foreign heel was really big in the 50s and 60s, but we still had remnants of it. The von Brunners were still around the several German and Japanese. Tojo Yamamoto was still doing it in the 80s in Tennessee. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Right. But well, your German thing, you had, you had Hans Schmidt, you had Raschke, you had the von Steigers, you had the Von Stroheims, you had the von Brauners, von Hess, von Hesses. Yeah. I mean it was a huge gimmick [00:41:52] Speaker B: out in the west coast. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Went over well. [00:41:53] Speaker B: Out in the west coast you had Poppenheim. Yeah, Kurt von Poppenheim, Von Goring. [00:41:59] Speaker A: I mean they were all over the place. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And they were effective, but they were starting to lose their steam a little in the 70s, I'm thinking. But you would know better than me. [00:42:10] Speaker A: I started to, you know, and the thing about Furpo, one of the things that, that I enjoyed as a kid growing up when we were in kayfabe, if a wrestler stayed in a territory for any real long length of time, eventually, if he was the dastardly hero, eventually he was going to become a baby face. It just was the natural progression and promoted the way it was. There were always so many questions about can he be trusted? You talk Furpo. Firpo had feuded for most of the early 60s with the crusher. And Furpo left, got suspended. He came back, he blasted the Crusher. He wanted revenge. Well, in a match Dr. X was wrestling against Crusher and Furbo had come out allegedly to help Dr. X. And Dr. X ended up turning on him and Crusher later on when he was battling the Vachon brothers, he said he needed a partner and Brucers busy and he. They put a tarp over the stool that Purple was sitting on on All Star Wrestling. Who's the secret partner? And then when Crusher finally took the tarp off, you know, Purple goes. And it's so good because the fans right away are saying, oh my God, how can the Crusher and Furple Coexist Yeah, but it was that example that they hated someone more than they hated each other. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:43:55] Speaker A: That was. That was promoted so well in those. In that era. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Also, the 76 was. Was 76 kind of the year that the High Flyers came to the forefront as a tag team. Because, you know, Gagny and Renzel had been a team for a year or two at that point. Right. [00:44:13] Speaker A: 74, 70 had been the top babyface team. Excuse me. They. They wouldn't win the tag team title till 77. I'm going to look at that one. Yeah. July of 77. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Bruiser and Crusher are the tag champions at the beginning of 76. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Yes. And they lost it, which is interesting about 76. I think this is one of the biggies we should cover. We get to June, and that was the infamous Antonio Inoki Muhammad Ali mixed martial arts debacle. In hindsight, but it was a big deal with Vince Senior promoting this thing on a closed circuit. You know, we didn't have pay per view yet, but we had closed circuit television. And what was unique about it is Vince had put together the Ali Anoki situation. He had also put Andre with boxer Chuck Wepner. And then the undercards were presented by the other promoters alliances. So here in the AWA for 76, we had the closed circuit television at our local St Paul auditorium here in Minnesota. But the undercard was taking place in Chicago live. And that had Lanza and Duncombe, Bobby Duncomb beating Crusher and Bruiser for the tag team title on that night. And then they also had other cards on the preliminaries of the. Of the card. But other territories had their own undercard, right? Yeah, to those two top closed circuit matches. [00:45:56] Speaker B: And you mentioned Andre on that card, but Andre had been in the AWA for another tour earlier in 76, right? [00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah, Andre used to come through, but I think I've told folks that he made his very first, first appearance in the AWA on July 24th of 1971. It was. He'd been brought in as a surprise partner of Bolinsky against Larry Hennigan, Lars Anderson. And he. He had made his debut and they actually referred to him as. I'm not sure I pronounce it right, but Jean Ferre. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah, John Ferre at that point. [00:46:36] Speaker A: And then he was Andre Roussamoff later. But yeah, he would come in usually once a year, and it'd be around the time that Verne would want to run a couple battle royals around the circuit. So Andre was obviously, you know, supposedly the odds on favorite to win the Battle Royals. [00:46:55] Speaker B: And we talked about this, we talked about this a little bit where tag teams were concerned in 75. But I was always surprised that the Valiants didn't do better in the awa. And they were actually in some loser leaves town matches where they lost in 76. And I guess they were doing better over in Indiana with the Bruiser. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Yeah. But you know, Tony, I've never had anything to prove this. Here's my theory on the Valiance. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Sure. [00:47:28] Speaker A: I will point out that it was Vern who gave Jimmy Valiant his initial training in the business back in 1969. Jim Fallon in those days. And we know Johnny Valiant story he came from. I think it was Bruno that actually trained him, wasn't it? Or worked with him. [00:47:44] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker A: And so they're brother tag teams. They had held the WWF tag team title. And I know as a kid in the seven in the mid-70s there, 74, 75, if you went to the magazine stand, any of the wrestling magazines, it seemed like for about a solid year the Valiants were on the COVID They were. They were over. [00:48:06] Speaker B: They were the WWWF tag team. I mean, no other tag team got anywhere near the coverage the Valiants got. [00:48:13] Speaker A: Right. And they were. [00:48:15] Speaker B: And deservedly so. They were. You know, Madison Square Garden was just amazingly alive when they would come down the aisle. I mean, it was. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And they were. They were totally over. And then of course, they were in Bruisers WWA in Indiana. And again they got the championship. They were way. Now, this is the part that I don't have any proof of this. It's just a theory. And knowing Vern Gagne, as I did, Verne was never going to put the title on the Valiants, even if they should have been champions, because they had already been champions in the Bruisers group, and especially they were champions on the east coast wwf. And Vern wasn't going to at least give the message to the fans that that team was as good as another team in another territory. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Now let me ask you if you [00:49:08] Speaker A: understood Vern, that's the way he thought. [00:49:10] Speaker B: I. That makes sense to me. I totally believe that, George. Now, let me ask you this question. Is that something he would have told them? Would he have told them, hey, guys, come in. You can work here. You'll probably do some semi main events. You'll be near the top of the card, but you're probably not ever going to be my champions. Would he have said that to them? [00:49:30] Speaker A: Probably indirectly. I don't think he would have flat out said you're coming in and you're not going to get the title. I just don't think he would have done that. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Controlling expectations, you know, I mean they had been so, they had been so over in those other two groups that I think, I think the fans probably expected them to win the titles because they have been the champions in these other places. [00:49:52] Speaker A: You have to also think about that time period from 75 to 76 though, Tony, we had, you could say, okay, the Valiants could have had the title. Were Lanza and Duncombe the logical choice? You know, Bobby Heenan managing him and then he had Nick as well at that point. You mentioned forming the Bobby Heenan family. Right. And we also had off and on, Larry Hennig with different partners. We had the High Flyers, we had Baron Rashford, Von Raschke and Mad Dog Vachon. We were kind of a tag team paradise. And the thing with the Valiants and we mentioned Furpo, the Valiants were having a feud with Larry Hennig and Joe Leduc and they were billed as the Lumberjacks, believe it or not. Leduc, of course is the Babyface along with Larry at that point. And they had gotten to the point around the horn where when the Valiants were going to leave, they were in these loser leave town matches. Well, here in Minneapolis, Joe Leduc didn't show up for the match. I'm not sure I knew why at the time or I ever found out why he didn't. He was in the territory but Firpo substituted for him with Larry Hennig and the Valiants lost the match. Loser leave town. Ironically, that was the last time we ever saw Furpo. He left town too. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Oh wow. [00:51:24] Speaker A: They never announced it. He just. He was no longer here. And I always laughed. I said Furpo didn't understand the rules. [00:51:32] Speaker B: Well, Jimmy Valiant just had his last match. I understand. And so yes, he did. [00:51:38] Speaker A: 80 some years old. Yeah. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Been relevant for a really long time and very effective. And I, I think about him because they were so over, like we say in the W4, W3, WF and then they were over in, in Bruisers territory. He really got a second life when he went down to Tennessee because. Because there really wasn't anywhere else for that style. I mean I can't, I can't see the Valiants working in Texas. I mean that would be a total styles clash but, but he, you know, with his style of brawling and the. What would eventually become the Boogie Woogie man Persona and all that. I mean that fit Tennessee and also North Carolina later on. But AWA was a wrestling territory, too, which I think was a little bit of a mismatch for the Valiants. [00:52:31] Speaker A: Well, and here's the other theory on why the Valiants didn't get the title. I'm not sure Verne would have ever said, you're coming in, we're going to do this. And Verne was good about. About that. Tony. When in those days, when a wrestler came to work for the awa, they were always aware of what their position was going to be or what was planned. That's what I really was good about that. And they always knew what their pay was going to be. A lot of times, you know, some wrestlers would say, look, I made such good money, I didn't need to be champion, or I didn't need to be in the main event. I was. I was doing really well. So the other part of it, though, is Verne had Bobby Heenan, who had just come off of managing Stevens and Bockwinkel in the previous year, and then he's got Nick and now the Family with Lanza and Duncombe. It made more sense in hindsight that Bobby got the title with Lanza and Duncombe. I will point this out. Bobby Heenan, privately, he had issues with the Valiants. I never had a chance to talk with him to find out exactly what it was, but he didn't like them. Let's just say that. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Oh, wow. And, you know, in any territory, if you weren't in the group of the top eight wrestlers, it was hard for you to get near the semi or the main event. And if you, you know, two of those four on each side were going to be a tag team. And if you had a faction at the top of the cards, like the Heenan family, there's only so much you're going to be elevated, I mean, because those eight guys are drawing the money, right? [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And we had. We always had a very interesting influx of talent throughout a year. If you go through 76, you see what the. What was talent in the early January, February, March. By the time you got to November, December, you had, again, still your mainstays, your building blocks, but you had different talent that had floated in. [00:54:43] Speaker B: I mean, if you think about, let's just take July of 76, for example. Nick Wachwinkle, Wilbur Snyder, Mad Dog, Vachon, Lanza and Duncomb, Bruiser and Crusher. How am I going to get near the top of the card? You know, I mean, and then if you go to August, it's Buckwinkle and Crusher, Wahoo McDaniel Lanza and Duncombe and so on and so forth. So. And then you bring in Andre from time to time. It's not going to be. And then you got Baron and it's, it's. You've got limited mobility there within that talent structure. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Well, and then, like I said, we had throughout, periodically, we had Bob Backlin float in. We did have Khosrow coming in. And by that time, Khosrow hadn't discovered that he was the Iron Sheik yet. That wasn't a gimmick that had come out, but he was still the amateur Iranian champion that he was. And you know, we had. We had guys like Pat o' Connor that would still come in. Joe Blanchard would make an appearance in. [00:55:48] Speaker B: Would you categorize Verne and Wally Carbo, who were basically booking all those years? Would you categorize them as very methodical? I mean, they, they had their way of, you know, they. They pretty much knew what the year was going to be and who their guys were going to be. And they didn't have a lot of change in that. [00:56:08] Speaker A: No. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Unless there was. Unless there was an injury or a car accident or something like that. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Right, right. Well, and I mean, we've talked in previous podcasts about in 1971, when the course of history changed a little bit on that 7-24-71 card when Hercules Cortez was killed the night of the match. Verne had legitimately intended to move the title to Nick at some point in 71 or early 72. But Hercules dying, Stevens ending up coming and working with Nick at that time, it changed everything. And Verne realized he could go tag team route and wrestle less and achieve what he was going to do if he lost the title. That's really where that came about. [00:56:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I just think about Georgia, for example. A talent could come into Georgia and before you know it, they'd work their way up. In three months, they'd be in the main event. It didn't quite work that way in the AWA because you had so much talent that had very strong solidified positions. It didn't move around that much, but it's not bad or wrong. It was just that there was an abundance of talent there. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And, you know, we also ended up with guys coming through you mentioned, like, Wahoo McDaniel would come through again. And we had high chief Peter Maivia. He came through. He was a baby face at the time. We just had a lot of talent coming in. But to go back to your original scenario about Carbo and Ganya. Verne was very methodical in that if he was going to have two guys or two tag teams and they were going to play out for a good portion of a year with a program, Verne would start at the end. This is where we're going to end up in October. This is what's going to happen, the blow off match, whatever it is. And then he'd systematically go back the five, six, seven months and play the scenario out that what's going to lead up to that final, final match. And the guys knew exactly where they were in those days. It sounds like I'm always putting Verne over, but Verne did take care of his guys. And if he told you what he was going to do with you, unless you messed up, he was going to do it. You were going to, you were going to have whatever he told you. And anybody could just trust what Vern said. [00:58:41] Speaker B: We've talked before about his relationship with particularly the Crusher, about using him to come in. And Crusher never wanted to work more than six months at a time or something like that. And we've talked about Bruiser, but one guy we have not talked about before, that's in July. Here with Bockwinkel in a title match is Wilbur Snyder, who of course co owns the territory in Indiana with Bruiser. What was his relationship with Wilbur Snyder like? [00:59:11] Speaker A: Vern Gagnes? Absolutely the best of friends outside the ring. If you go back to the 50s when we were earlier talking about the national Dumont hookup, Wilbur Snyder was another one of those guys that was extremely over. You know, he was, he, he was, he's one of those few guys that never was a heel in his life. He was a baby face and he was extremely over. And if you look at results records, Tony, to show you the respect that Verne had for Wilbur, Wilbur Snyder is one of the few, few, few guys that Verne ever actually let pin him in a match. [00:59:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:59:58] Speaker A: And Wilbur actually took the United States title from vern in the 50s through their friendship. They were a tag team off and on in the 50s and even a little bit in the early 60s. They would team once in a while in Denver, et cetera. Wilbur would come into town and usually when he did, he would come in like you say, he was Bruisers partner at the time. But Snyder would come in, excuse me. And he and Joe Blanchard would come in and they would go on hunting trips. They specifically would come in, it was to go hunting, fishing, whatever, deer hunting. That's what they would do. And then Wilbur would Work for Vern. Well, and very, very popular. [01:00:44] Speaker B: I knew they had a good close relationship and all using Bruiser, Crusher and Snyder so much in this scenario. I wondered how much of that was driven by the close relationship and how much was driven by the Chicago. I mean, they. They partnered in Chicago, so I. I wondered how much of that drove that as well. Did. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Well, you know, it was. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Did Snyder work as much through the other towns as he did in Minneapolis and Chicago? [01:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, he shows up in the results. You know, usually what he would do if he came in, if he'd maybe do a month's worth of matches around the horn, and so you'd see him pop up in a result. The other thing I want to point out to you is another close relationship. Behind the scenes was Nick Bockwinkle and Wilbur Snyder. They had been friends all along. When Nick was heel here. He got initial victories over Wilbur Snyder, his former tag team partner from the. The old Indiana territory. Yeah, when I had it. [01:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:54] Speaker A: Barnett Doyle, Nick and Nick and Wilbur were partners there, and they were also partners out in the Roy Shire Group in California, and they held the title together. And then, of course, you know, some folks, I don't know if I think I've said this before, but Wilbur helped train Nick Bockwegel along with Lu Thes and. And Nick's dad, Warren. They trained Nick for the pro ranks. Wilbur was 10 years older than Nick back in June. [01:02:25] Speaker B: The. I think it was June might have been a little bit earlier, where the tag title changed over to Lanza and Duncombe from. [01:02:34] Speaker A: It was in June. [01:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah, June. [01:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the night of the. The. [01:02:41] Speaker B: It was in July. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah, July. [01:02:43] Speaker B: Yeah, July 23rd. Chicago, actually. [01:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:49] Speaker B: So you got. You got a tag title change there. And they defended those titles pretty. I mean, they got a pretty nice. I guess maybe because they were associated with Heenan as well. I mean, they got. They got a nice run there. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, Vern had had the option too, because if he had Bobby Heenan, who he thought a lot of. So Bobby was taken care of in those days. And Verne could run if he ran two cards a night. He could run Nick defending the title in one town, and he could have lands on Duncan defending the title in the other town, sometimes Bobby would only be at one of them. Well, then we'd get a scenario where Nick Bockwinkel, partners or manager, has been suspended from ringside due to some ballyhoo a time before. And that was a good way to promote. [01:03:38] Speaker B: I mean, just to show how strong they were. In August, they drew 15,000 people to Comiskey park for a steel cage match between Lanza and Duncombe and Bruiser and Crusher and Buck Winkle versus Andrew, which was kind of an unusual. I mean, Terry Funk defended the NWA title against Andre a couple of times. But that was kind of unusual for Andre to be in a world title match. But because those guys are such great workers, they were able to. To have a great match. I'm thinking, did you think the. [01:04:10] Speaker A: Tell you about the night, did you [01:04:11] Speaker B: think Andre and Bachwing was a good match that night? [01:04:16] Speaker A: One that I remember. And if it was in 76, and I think it probably was pretty much after the bell rang, Andre had actually, he did something to his back. This, this was, I guess you could say this was storyline, but it is how they played it out. If it wasn't real, they did it. He hurt his back, he laid on the mat. He literally could not get up. And for a solid hour, longest hour of my life, Nick had to try to turn him over, lift him up, do leg locks, you name it. And Andre was pretty immobile, which always led me to believe that the injury or the whatever happened to him was real. But Nick carried it out. And on that night, I said, boy, Nick is a genius because he was able to. [01:05:10] Speaker B: That was not something Andre would typically do in a match at that time. [01:05:13] Speaker A: No, no, I really do. I think this particular night he had actually hurt himself and they actually went, they went abroad way. It was a long night, but Nick made it interesting. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Wrestling was always big in Comiskey Park. I mean, that's one of the biggest cards of the year. That August show, 15,000 people in Comiskey. [01:05:35] Speaker A: Well, you know, Chicago in the Amphitheater, they always had such a unique situation because in 1965 when Bruiser and Verne watched Chicago, took over Chicago, however you want to do it. Kohler was gone. Fred Kohler and those fans, Tony, they were so fortunate because each of the cards that the Amphitheater would hold, you'd see a mix of AWA and WWA talent on a consistent basis. And you. They would see wrestlers that we didn't get to see in the awa. The reverse would have been said for the WWA fans that didn't get to [01:06:19] Speaker B: see the AWA guys in Indianapolis so much. [01:06:23] Speaker A: Right. [01:06:23] Speaker B: But man, what an all star group you got in Chicago. [01:06:28] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. [01:06:30] Speaker B: That's tremendous. [01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:33] Speaker B: So in September, October, it's Buck Winkle and Dick the Bruiser. And we have here in 76 it happened in 75 too. I'm always curious about where the High Chief Peter Maivia shows up. He was in Texas for a run. I mean, he spent so much time in San Francisco and out on the west coast, but he had a run as the Texas heavyweight champion in the Dallas territory and he's here in the awa. The High Chief Peter Maivia. [01:07:05] Speaker A: And he. And he. For whatever it's worth, he was over. Vern gave him a decent push. He had title matches with Nick. [01:07:16] Speaker B: So High Flyers get a tag team win over lands and dunk them in Winnipeg on Oct. 7. They draw 8,774 fans, but it was overturned. This is one booking trope I didn't like about Vern, the title being overturned and all the bookers did it, but I'd never liked it. I always felt, I'm with you, I'm with you. I always felt like they kind of jerked us around when they did those things. But what was the. What. What happened there with the tag titles? [01:07:49] Speaker A: Well, you know, the thing is, when you say jerking year round two, I want to point out that as much as you and I would not like it, I gotta say for the average fan, just the average fan who would hit a match here and there and didn't follow it as closely, but they got into this program between two guys or tag teams. [01:08:09] Speaker B: Well, that, that was what happened, George. They did so much like the. That's. They still talk about the dusty finish, which essentially was that the. You left the arena thinking the one guy won and then you find out later he didn't win and it was over return and they did it with Hogan and the title. And so I just, I don't know, I worry anytime somebody starts down that road, they're not going to know when not to do it again. You know what I mean? It gets overused, I guess, is my fear. [01:08:40] Speaker A: Well, and I agree, I agree the only bottom line on it is, is that it appeared that it didn't diminish attendance at all. People weren't mad enough to say, well, screw you, I'm not coming back. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it wasn't used that often back. It wasn't used that often back in these days. But we just know from history that it got overused so much. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. By the 80s it was every match it seemed like. I agree with you. [01:09:09] Speaker B: That's where I think the danger is. Once you start down that road, you've got to discipline yourself and go, okay, we're going to do this one day time, but we're not going to stay on it. [01:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:21] Speaker B: And that was, you know, common. Bookers did that to protect heels. And I never thought heels needed protecting. They had plenty of other stuff they were doing for that that was in the ring. They didn't. They didn't need. They didn't need the promotion, getting the heat, which is why I didn't like it. I felt like it moved the heat away from the wrestlers and put it on the promotion because the promotion overturned the title change, and then the fans are mad. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Well, I give you an interesting scenario. This is one time when they didn't do it. We're talking about Nick getting the title in November of 75. What was interesting about that title match is Bobby Heenan had been suspended from ringside to help Nick that night. I mean, at least that's what they said. So he didn't show up. But Nick came to the ring with Bobby Duncomb. And when Bobby Duncomb had first come in that year to the awa, he was initially used as kind of a policeman. And he would be used as kind of a policeman when Nick got the title, that if you can beat Duncan, you'll get a title match with Nick. It kind of worked that way. But on Nick's title win, this was a night they didn't overturn. Greg Gagne came to ringside with Vern, and Bobby Duncomb was with Nick. And ironically, they had Paul Pershman as the special referee that night. He. That was before he was Buddy Rose. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Right. [01:10:55] Speaker A: And. But he was. He had been working here as a heel. Vern had trained him a couple years earlier, and he'd been. He'd been a heel, and he was the referee. But Duncan ended up tripping Verne and Pershman didn't see it. Verne was beaten by Nick, and they never overturned that one. And Bobby Duncomb had interfered. And that would have been something where you'd have thought Vern, you know, one of his tactics would be, look, I didn't lose. But Verne did have a match with Bobby Duncomb after the match took place. And it was billed as Bobby wants to get. Or that Verne wants to get back at Duncombe for his interference. And then, of course, he wants a shot at Nick again. That's the way they played that out. [01:11:45] Speaker B: Do you think Blackjack Lanza is not given as much credit as he deserves? The. I mean, is he kind of been pushed to the side? I mean, of course. I mean, obviously a lot of people know Blackjack Mulligan from their tag team, but do you think Lanza has been not given the credit that maybe he should have been? [01:12:11] Speaker A: I don't know. I think, Tony, that Lanza actually was always given a strong push and at least by Verne. You have to remember, go back to the very early 60s and Vern trained Jack Lanza. That was one of his trainees. He was in the AWA in the 60s as just plain Jack Lanza. Originally a baby face, very bland, middle of the card, didn't always win, but, you know, he was one of those guys you could root for. And then in the later 60s, when he hooked up with Heenan in St. Louis and the Indianapolis area with the blackjack gimmick, Verne definitely brought him back and used him. And Lanza was from Minneapolis. He was a Minneapolis native. You might, I think Vern always took care of him. [01:13:04] Speaker B: You might think I'm crazy, but when Scott hall came in to the AWA as a babyface, he reminded me of Jack Lanza. Not black Jack Lanza, but when he was just Jack Lanza. That's who Scott hall reminded me of. Like he was a big burly cowboy kind of guy with the mustache and the hair and all that similar build and all that. I thought they worked very similarly. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Actually. I've never, I've never heard that analogy or. But I can, I can agree with you. I can see it. [01:13:39] Speaker B: I mean, they both went on to gimmicks that made their career better, but back, yeah, in the early iterations of themselves, they were very similar. [01:13:48] Speaker A: I thought, well, there is no doubt that Lanza's blackjack gimmick made his career. He was never going to. He was one of those, for lack of a better word, he was a milquetoast baby face. He probably could have been a mid card guy, a semi windup guy for his whole career, but I, I don't think he would have gotten a title as just plain Cowboy Jack or Jack Lanza. The other thing is, is that I know Verne thought a lot of him because he always used him really well. Lanza also became the guy that was unmasking Dr. X when Dr. X was going to leave the territory in 1970 after his three year run. You know, Vernon, and you know my book there, I tell the story in one of the little sidebars about Vern didn't want the Destroyer because he wanted the guy to unmask eventually. And Dick, and Dick Byer was never going to unmask as the Destroyer. So they brought Dr. X in and. [01:14:57] Speaker B: And Dick came up with the idea of becoming Dr. X. Right. As a way to unmask and. [01:15:03] Speaker A: And Dick Byer, like I can tell you this, he was in the car when I was riding with him and he told me that exact story. He says, I told Vern, I will unmask. Let's create a new character. Well, give me a different identity. And they did it. But after his three years, when he was ready to leave the first time he was going to go to Japan, he was going to go on his world tour as the Destroyer. And he really, he legitimately did. He took a world tour with his family as the Destroyer. He booked matches in Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Japan, you name it, they traveled. And he eventually came back a year and a year or so later. But it was Jack Lanza that Verne gave the nod to unmask him in some of the towns. And Also in our St. Paul match, Minnesota Dr. X had demanded a match with Lanza because they had been a short lived tag team and they broke up and Lanza became the guy to take the mask off. And Dick in St. Paul took his mask off to get a match with Lanza. [01:16:14] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:16:15] Speaker A: So Vernon put him over and then after that, Lanza was put into. This is going back to 1971 now, late 70s 70. Lanza was then put into a program with Eduard Carpentier, who was a leading contender, if you will, for Verne's title. And I'll point something out, they always referred to Carpentier as former world champion. [01:16:40] Speaker B: Yes. [01:16:41] Speaker A: Never any AWA or any alliance, but obviously it was from the Omaha reference of world champion back in the mid-50s. So Lanza had a program with him and then Lanza ended up getting into title matches with Verne in 1971 with Heenan. So Verne used him. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Well, Buck Winkle wraps up the year with program with the high chief Peter Maivia. And I mean, it was, I don't know, I want to ask you, you're the expert. I mean, how do you categorize 1976 for a year in the AWA? It seemed like it was a really strong year. [01:17:22] Speaker A: I absolutely thought about that. When you initially called me tonight and said we were going to talk 76. And I immediately, oddly enough, I said, you know what? 76, 75, 76 were really strong years for the AWA. 77. If and when we talk about that year, next year, it was a little weaker in the sense that we lost television outlets for some of the year and television affected what was going on. And we'll talk about that at the time but no, I think 76 was a good year. [01:17:57] Speaker B: And that was very good year. All Star Wrestling was a syndicated show, right? [01:18:01] Speaker A: Yes. [01:18:02] Speaker B: And so you lost some markets that were running. [01:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we lost some markets. And then our local market was. They were putting it on at the goofiest. The station that was on was one night. One time it'd be on at midnight, the next time it'd be on at 2 in the afternoon. And then they wouldn't play at a week. And you know as well as I do, Tony, in those days, if a promoter didn't have a television station to get his show out there, well, it was disaster. [01:18:28] Speaker B: And it was also disaster if wrestling fans didn't know the time it was going to be exactly because they set their whole schedule around the wrestling program. It's like. [01:18:38] Speaker A: And we didn't have VCRs or any of that stuff in those days, so it wasn't like you could tape it and watch it later. [01:18:45] Speaker B: Tim Deals and I were just talking the other day about how we both went on trips as. Let's see, how I would have been 13 in 1976. We went on trips. Tim Deals went with his family, I went with my family. And our biggest regret of going on that trip was we're going to miss the wrestling show and we didn't have anybody to talk to about what happened. You know, Tim Deal said he had his mom write down notes on the wrestling show. So when he got home, he knew what happened on the wrestling show. Wrestling show, yeah. [01:19:16] Speaker A: Oh, if I. If I'd have been gone, I had. I would either have my friend Jim Melby or I'd make sure my wife would. You gotta watch it. Tell me what happened or what. What are they gonna do for next week with Auditorium, you know. Yeah, it was. It was like our. Our food for the day. [01:19:32] Speaker B: You got any idea what Vern and Wally, what they generated in revenue in 76? Any idea at all? [01:19:41] Speaker A: No, I don't, Tony. I can only tell you that I don't think that 76 was by any means a bad year financially. [01:19:51] Speaker B: You seem like bad. [01:19:53] Speaker A: I do know that 1977 and 78 were not good financially. That has been reported. And again, for the reasons that I said, as we got into the early 80s, 79, into 80, 81, very good things picked up. They were really on the mark. And by 1982, that was their most successful financial year ever. Now, a lot of it had to do with what was going on with the wrestlers and the time period, new fan base. But, I mean, they were selling out 20,000 fans in every market they were in. [01:20:33] Speaker B: Now this is. [01:20:34] Speaker A: We had our Civic center in St. Paul and every month it was 20,000 plus. And that was. That was. That's capacity for that old auditorium. [01:20:42] Speaker B: This has nothing to do with 76. But just you talking about that caused a question to come in my mind that Roy Schier would be going out of business at the end of the 70s. When did Vern pick up San Francisco? [01:20:57] Speaker A: It was actually. That was a little bit later. [01:21:01] Speaker B: It was. San Francisco was dark for a while, right? [01:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they had a couple of years where it was, you know. Can you imagine a wrestling fan in that era? We'd have been. You'd had to take us out of a coma. [01:21:12] Speaker B: Well, we were talking. We were talking the other day on the. On the 3WF show about how if. If Vince Senior would have gone with Pedro instead of Bob Backlin, that he might have been able to pull in San Francisco if he would have been of the mind to expand like Vince Jr. Did. But he was not that guy. He was going to stay within the agreed boundaries. But I know Verne did pick up San Francisco because he was already out there in Denver and Salt Lake City and some of those other. [01:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The thing about Pedro Morales, you know, he was so over on that. Well, he was over on the west coast originally. [01:21:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:21:50] Speaker A: And then on the east coast when he got the championship and everything, he was. He was big. He didn't draw as well as Bruno did, but he was a good ethnic draw. [01:22:00] Speaker B: Yes. [01:22:01] Speaker A: And I think that's one of the reasons that Pedro only had the WWF title for Wasn't a little over three years or so. [01:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:11] Speaker A: And then eventually it was going to go back to Bruno. That's where Stasiak had the Coffee Break title win. But when you mentioned Pedro, Verne brought him in to the AWA and this would have been into 77. Vern brought him in. And as over as he was Tony on the East Coast, Verne had him in, I think, decent programs with the Super Destroyer, who was Don Jardine. He had him in tag matches and matches, in single matches with Lanza and Duncan. He had Pedro in a match even with Nick Bockwinkel as champion. And ironically, and I used to talk about this, that I mentioned, Jim Melby, my friend, we used to talk about this stuff all the time. And we talked about the fact that Pedro's just not hot here. The fans literally did not get in to the Pedro Morales package. And again, I don't Know, if it is an ethical Nick thing, you know, we had conversations in the past, you know, could the Crusher have went into the WWF and Ben over as he was here, or could Bruno have come here and been over like he was there? And the answer is probably no. [01:23:32] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. [01:23:34] Speaker A: You know, that's. That's why these guys had their niche [01:23:36] Speaker B: and that's why wrestling was so great in those days, is because those territories were programmed specifically for those fan bases. [01:23:45] Speaker A: Right. [01:23:47] Speaker B: Both in psychographics, which is the ethnicity and the working class and those kind of things, but also in style of wrestling. [01:23:57] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. The fans are just. They had a formula in each territory and it worked for them. I always looked at Backland as champion, and I think Backland was an excellent babyface. Champion. Champion. But I also am very quick to give credit to all of the monster heels that he was put against. And I think we can both agree that regardless of who the champion is, in any territory, you got to have a good challenger and you got to have a good champion that's going to make the match. [01:24:31] Speaker B: I think the story's been told before that Vince Senior kind of took it as a challenge when the other promoters didn't think he could get back and over and he's like, watch me, I will get him. [01:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And he did. And he did well. And you know, the thing about Superstar. Here's an example for you. So Vince does put the title on Superstar, and which I. What's ironic because as we said earlier, he was a heel, and the WWWF formula was never to have a heel champion. I mean, Koloff, I thought Koloff should have had a year run. That was my thinking at 20 years old. Whatever I was when he won, I said, you know, let the guy establish himself, let him be the hated Russian. Let. Let other baby faces have the title shot and. And eventually have Pedro take it from him. I always thought that would have meant more, but it worked out the way they did it. To have, you know, for what, less than a month. Koloff has it, Pedro gets it. [01:25:28] Speaker B: And. And Ivan thought he was going to have it longer. Yeah, they had actually told him he was going to have it longer. And he moved to New York City and changed. Moved his apartment and all of that to only find out he was only going to get it for a short time. [01:25:44] Speaker A: And you don't know if part of that was a panic button from. From the promotion. [01:25:49] Speaker B: I mean, they. They had such a strong reaction to Ivan winning, but I think that just made McMahon Senior very nervous. [01:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah, well, like you say, if you. For Koloff, it worked out. I mean, man, the man, the guy made a career of being the former. The guy that beat Bruno and the former WWF champion. So it didn't work out bad for him. But with Superstar, you know, he had been with Verne, and at the time when Superstar was here, he had even teamed with Koloff, et cetera, here. And then, if you remember, when they both went to the wwf, they actually teamed again. So, you know, Vince took our team, not just two wrestlers, but they did. He did take the team. But I always thought Superstar could have been a unique challenge or champion for a while. But Verne wasn't going to do it because at that early 70s part, Superstar was strictly gimmick. And in that day, Tony, that muscle wrestler Superstar was. He was. I hate to use the word, a freak at the time. He just. He wasn't the normal professional wrestler. [01:27:01] Speaker B: Well, you and I talked about it last year when we covered 75, but a lot of people forget that Superstar, Graham and Dusty Rhodes were a tag team in the awa. And it was from that relationship that came their big series in Madison Square Garden where they faced off against each other, but that relationship they had with each other that was formed back there in the AWA and that tag team. So a lot of people think that Dusty turned in 74, and he just spent the rest of his time in Florida. But he spent a great deal of 75 in the AWA and tagging with Superstar. [01:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah, he teamed with Superstar and they were in a program for good part of the year against the Germans, Hoffman and von Reschke. [01:27:44] Speaker B: And they had that great six man where Andre came in and tagged with him. [01:27:49] Speaker A: Yes, that was. That was with Hoffman, Raschke and Boris Brezhnikov, who was Nikolai Volkov in the WWF. [01:27:58] Speaker B: Well, we've covered 1976 in the AWA. But don't worry, everybody. I got plenty of ideas for George to come back this year. So he's going to be back. We're going to be talking about other stuff, but you need to get his book, Minnesota's Golden Age of Wrestling. From Bern Gagne to the Road Warriors. It's a fantastic year by year analysis of the American Wrestling association in the Minnesota part of the territory. Or get his results book, which are the 60s. You have. Yeah, 60s and then you have two 70s books. [01:28:31] Speaker A: I have AWA record book, the 60s, and then I have two separate books for the 70s. One is the record book 70 to 70 and the record book, 75 to 79. And very nicely. Whoops. Got carried away. They're very nicely laid out. Got tag teams on the back cover. [01:28:56] Speaker B: And George, you know, I know you know this, but for everybody watching and listening, I can't wait to spend time with George and Waterloo this year. I'm going to have I get my own table at the Trago Thes hall of Fame night. And George and his lovely wife are going to be accompanying me at my table because that's what George Shire means to me and I can't wait for us to do that. [01:29:23] Speaker A: I'm humbled and honored. I talked with Gabby at the hall of Fame. I don't know if you've talked to Gabby there yet. [01:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been a while. It's back when I first told her I was coming, but before I knew I was getting the award, I talked [01:29:40] Speaker A: with her in length here a week or so back and had my membership renewed. I actually became a lifetime member at this point. [01:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [01:29:50] Speaker A: I teased her when I, when I did it. I said, you know, I'm going to turn 75 in September. I don't know this lifetime member. That means I got to go up on 23. All right. I'm in 23 years. [01:30:02] Speaker B: That's right. [01:30:04] Speaker A: So. But yeah, I, I mentioned to her that I was looking forward to being there because of you and our buddy, my buddy Ken Resnick getting the Gordon Solely award. I am over the top happy for him. Ken and I had a nice talk here the other day and we did a podcast together, too. Ken and I did. [01:30:23] Speaker B: I saw that with Brian, with Brian Ferguson. [01:30:27] Speaker A: And I told Gabby, I said, I want to make sure that I'm sitting at. I mentioned you. I said, I want to make sure I'm sitting at Tony Richards table. He said that Lorraine and I would be there. And she goes, well, I don't know anything about that or how that works. I said, well, okay, I'm counting on Tony to have two chairs. [01:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually work on that with Gloria, but, but I'll, I'll make sure that that happens. And I got some other people too. And I'm excited about the Welch family going in. I'm excited about getting gorgeous Jimmy Garvin going in. I'm excited about Jeff Jarrett going in. I mean, it's going to be a really, really, really great weekend. And you're going to be doing a roundtable there with another fellow about the awa and that should be good. I'm going to be doing a session as well. So it's. It's going to be. We're focused. I love one of the things. I've loved that Jerry and his team have really focused more on the history of the business. Business. [01:31:21] Speaker A: Right. [01:31:21] Speaker B: And that. That's really does my heart good because, of course, you know, you and I are all about that. [01:31:26] Speaker A: Right. Well. And I just want to say to folks that if you've never attended one of the Trago says Hall of Fame weekends, make do yourself a favor and this would be a good one to come. And I know you'd like to meet more people. I'd like to meet more people. It's always a fun place to go to because we've got so many friends that we only see at these events. And I am just really looking forward to. This is the 27th year. It's special to me because I was there when it was formed in 1999, and it was still in Newton, Iowa, in those days, but I was there and I've seen it grow and I've seen it just mature into what it is. The. Just a place of history, obviously. And history is my middle name. [01:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah, obviously. The hall of Fame induction is special. They always have a wrestling card. You always get to meet your favorites there. You go around and visit them at their booths or whatever. But the addition of the sessions and the seminars has been. I think it's just made the weekend just fantastic. And they. They get better every year, so. [01:32:34] Speaker A: Well, and I tell you this, the last few years, I have not been able to go down there and be there for the whole weekend. This year I just made it a point. And I'm going to be honest and tell folks you're the reason that I said I'm going for the whole weekend when I heard you were getting the Melby Award. I've told you behind the scenes what the Melby thing means to me. [01:32:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:32:55] Speaker A: And I'm just honored that you're getting it and I'm going to be there and all these other things, you know, like your seminar. The thing I'm going to be doing the roundtable with Ken Resnick and Jimmy Garvin's going to be on it. I hear Greg Gagne is supposed to be on it. So we're going to have fun and just. Just having chances all weekend to talk with people. And you're not going to get much sleep, but get a ticket. And they put a thing out today, folks, that the. The all. What do they call it? The All Access Pass. [01:33:29] Speaker B: Yes. [01:33:29] Speaker A: That you got to get it in soon because they need month, they need to have the count in for the banquet, etc. So whatever you do, come on out, you won't be sorry. That's all I can say. [01:33:41] Speaker B: I'm gonna be doing a session. Greg Klein's gonna be there and that's gonna be his first year. He's got a brand new book on the Texas wrestling war of 1950-53. And he's gonna be one of my guests in my session. And I'm also gonna have Roy Lee Welch there, who is Lester Welch's son. Son. He's going to be in my session as well. And we're going to talk about the Georgia war. So it should be a lot of fun and I hope everybody can, can make it. Who, who wants to be there? So. [01:34:10] Speaker A: Well, and the other thing about meeting new friends, we have so many old friends, but you meet new friends and you just mentioned Greg Klein. I mean, I know of Greg Klein and our paths haven't really crossed, but we're historians, we've been around and he's one of the guys that hate when I get a chance to meet him. I'm going to, you know, I'm into this cup of coffee or beer or whatever we're going to do for a while and let's talk wrestling. You know, it's. [01:34:33] Speaker B: Well, he will be at my table as well. So we'll have a good conversation, all sitting there having dinner together. That should be good. [01:34:42] Speaker A: I'm looking forward to it. [01:34:44] Speaker B: Well, thank you, George. I appreciate you, man. [01:34:46] Speaker A: My pleasure as always. And I'm looking forward to being back whenever that is. [01:34:52] Speaker B: Well, that wraps up our deep dive into the AWA here on episode 64 of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show, a special guest analyst, George Shire. George has helped me so much and he and his beautiful wife are going to be joining us in Waterloo, Iowa this year at the 2026 Trago says Hall of Fame weekend celebration. And Friday night, when I'm a duck, I'm inducted into the hall of Fame as this year's James C. Melby award winner. George and his wife will be right there at my table, front and center at the banquet that night at the Trago Estes hall of Fame. Because George has been such a good friend, such a great supporter. We talk almost every single day. And I hope you enjoyed the ride today as much as we did bringing it to you. George will be back some more this year in some other episodes, but if this episode took you back to the territories like we intended, please, like Comment with your favorite AWA memory or territory question and subscribe with notifications. Turned on. Your comments help us shape future shows and I love getting feedback. I sometimes I forget to turn on the the comments on the YouTube videos and I apologize. I'm trying to get really really better than at that and believe me, I like to hear what you have to say. Thanks for all the thumbs up we get over there at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel YouTube community and for even more territory history. And you want some more stories, you can sign up for the Daily Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Daily Chronicle Newsletter. It's the only newsletter that I know of that only is dedicated and focused on pro wrestling territory history from 1925 to 1995. And you can do that over at my substack channel, tonyrichardsford.substack.com and subscribe. It's absolutely free. And if you want to help my historian work and history work at the Time Tunnel, take out a paid subscription. It's only $5 a month and you'll get access to the Daily Chronicle. And then on top of that, some of the special features that I've written and that I am continuing to write, like the Evolution of Pro Wrestling and the Family Tradition series that we just launched which is documenting the greatest families in the history of pro wrestling. I also want to thank you for all your great comments and all your likes and thumbs up and everything else on the special tribute that I did to Phil Hickerson. Tim Deals and I have already recorded our Tennessee 1976 show which is coming up here next week here at the Time Tunnel Pro Wrestling History show. And at that point Phil passed away on May 20 and Tim and I had just recorded the show like three or four days before, so we won't have any mention in the show. But I do have something in mind that we can do in addition to that show to honor Phil Hickory Dickerson's passing. But thank you for all the great feedback I got on the feature on Phil. And just a huge thank you to everyone who joins us here at the Time Tunnel show every single week. We'll be back again next week with our Tennessee 1976 show. Tim deals will be here and special bonus extras perhaps. So we're going through pro wrestling's glorious past and until then, hey, if you want better neighbors, be a better neighbor. I'm Tony Richards saying so long for now and goodbye from the Bluegrass State. [01:38:46] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.