Episode 68: 2026 Mailbag Show #2

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today, covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media [00:00:22] Speaker B: personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker A: The cream. Yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker B: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. I'm your host, Tony Richards, coming to you live from the Richards ranch in Western Kentucky. And today we are having our second, our number two, our dose mailbag show for 2026. We try to do these at the end of every quarter. And we're already here at the end of June. And my special guest and the person I turned the yoke and the wheel over to for this show, Steve Giannarelli is here. Hey, Steve. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Hey, Tony. Thank you for having me back. And I wanted to give a shout out on the show to my hairstylist, Christy of Supercuts and Oldsmar, for giving me this nice haircut for this special show. But I'm really excited about this and we have a lot of good questions from all over the US and abroad. So we'll have a lot of fun answering these questions. [00:01:26] Speaker B: Well, Christie's going to be mad that you wore that headset because we can't quite see your hairstyle. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Well, the other woman in my life, Mrs. G, wants me to wear the headset so I can do a good podcast. [00:01:39] Speaker B: The one thing I do not want, I do not want Mrs. G not happy. We want that. I got an email through. Well, it was actually a Facebook message here. This has been a while since I got this, but I just wanted to read it. It's from Debbie Dahmer and she says, hello, Tony, I am the daughter of the late pro wrestler Chief White Owl. I can't thank you enough for doing the beautiful tribute that you do to the wrestlers who passed away. And you included my dad. On May 23, I posted this on my timeline, his wrestling page and various wrestling groups. And then she capitalized. Wow. It was really awesome. Hope you have a wonderful and peaceful Memorial Day weekend. Thank you, Debbie, for sending that nice message and that warms my heart. Because one thing that I really. And Steve, you know this about me, one thing I really like to do is I like to honor those who have given themselves and their bodies to the wrestling business. And we mention and try our best to give a salute every single day to people whose birthdays it is that have passed on to people whose birthday it is that are still with us. And also we do our RIP tribute, the Rest in Peace tribute, where we try to remember the wrestlers who passed away on that date in history. And that I've gotten so many comments from various people in the Facebook group about that, especially other wrestlers that we do that. And I. That's a really thing. That's a. That's a really important thing to me. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Well, you do such a great job. And I mean, to me, you're the hardest working man in wrestling podcast. You really, you have your. Your hands in a lot of fires and a lot of things that you do. The hall of Fame is coming up and, and you. You mentioned, you know, how impactful that was for her. Just the other day I was on your site and I saw you, you had a really nice homage to Barry Orton. And Barry Orton is one of those wrestlers from the past that really is forgotten and really kind of got a short shrift with his career based on his ability. And I think he could have been marketed a lot better and used a lot better than he did. So when I saw that you did that for him, that really put a warm glow inside me. It really made me feel good. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a. That's a series that I'm writing on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel substack page for our premium subscribers called Family Tradition. And there's just so many great families in the wrestling business that I thought, man, I need to separate these biographies that I write, these feature stories about the life and career of various people. I need to separate it out into a specific category for families. And the Ortons were the first one I did. And I was really excited to get to Barry Orton's. I. I saw him in ICW when he came in. When Bob Orton Jr. First came in, he brought Barry with him from down in Knoxville, and they were in ICW in 1980. He never, Barry never got the credit, and he didn't really ever want to be in the wrestling business. He really wanted to be a musician. He wanted to be in a band. But, I mean, gosh, you're part of this. I was interviewing Ross Hart the other day of the Stu Hart family. And it's almost like. It's almost a prerequisite the minute you find out you're in this family, like, well, I gotta wrestle, you know, because we got this family thing going, right? And so Barry was in the wrestling business. He didn't. His career wasn't super huge, but he had A couple of memorable runs that I highlighted in that story. And I really appreciate you mentioning that. [00:05:33] Speaker A: Oh, no. It really touched me that you went to the trouble to do that for him. And. Well, we got a ton of questions here. Do you feel like you want to get started? [00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to run through just a couple of things on the Briscoe and Bradshaw show. We're doing the history of Texas wrestling, and we're right at the beginnings of that. I just, just did Episode number one this week is episode number two. We're in the 1880s to about 1910. We're talking about carnivals and athletic shows that are coming through the state of Texas after the Civil War and the time where the ranching industry is starting to wane because of barbed wire and fences and the open range is kind of going away. And so these huge ranches are being developed, which is sort of shutting off the cowboy pipeline to wrestling. But we. Then they have the oil boom in Texas and all these oil field workers. I mentioned that Roy Welch's father, Big Ed Welch in Oklahoma, was a town champion who wrestled during this time period in the early 1900s. And it's just really interesting to me how wrestling evolved and what its roots came from and what its seeds came from. And so that's an interesting series that I'm working on with stories of Briscoe and Bradshaw. You mentioned the hall of Fame. We do have that coming up. The Tragos Thes hall of Fame. I'll be inducted into the hall of Fame, along with some great people. I've got some interviews coming up with Jimmy Garvin. I've got Ron Fuller, who's going to be coming on to talk about the Welch family. I've got James Beard, the Hall of Fame referee, coming on. I am working diligently to get Jeff Jarrett on the show. We'll see. I hope that works out, but we've got that coming up in July. I'll also be doing a session there about pro wrestling's greatest wars. And we'll be talking about the war in Texas. Greg Klein will be my guest, who has a new book out about that in the 1950s. And Roy Lee Welch, Lester Welch's son, will be there. And we'll be talking about the war in Atlanta between the NWA office and Ann Gunkel. And it should be a great session. I had someone contacted me just the other day asking if I would stream that live. And so there's another idea, Steve, something else for me to work on. So. And then the 1976 series is underway. We're doing a lot of that. We just did 1976 Dallas where we talked about the super bowl of wrestling with the big match of Terry Funk and Fritz Von Erich. And we had a big bunch of 1976 shows still to come. You and I will be doing another WWW F76 show. It's just going to be fantastic. We're going to talk about Stan Hansen and Bruno in the revenge match. We're going to talk about the Anoki Ali match. There's just so many things for us to talk about. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Steve, this is going to be, I think, probably the best show we've ever done. And I also think it'll be the biggest show, at least the ones I'm involved with for 1976. I hope it's quite memorable and I have a feeling it will be. [00:08:46] Speaker B: Before we get going with our questions and first of all, let me thank you. I got tremendous love in my heart and wonderful appreciation for everybody who gave us a question for the mailbag show. Thank you so much. We had a little bit of a trouble with a dude who kind of hijacked my question thread in Facebook. I just shake my head. I don't understand people like this, where it's almost like, hey, get out of the way. I'm going to be the star of your show. I'm going to be the star of your Facebook group. I'm going to ask questions and answer them. This guy didn't even need anybody else to participate, but I think he kind of hijacked it and made people feel a little uncomfortable in there. I wish that wouldn't have happened. George Shire is messaging me on the side going, get rid of that guy. Toss him out. And so I don't know, I mean, I try to be nice to people and try to give them a lot of space, but you know, come on man, don't be doing that kind of stuff. But. But I am thankful for everybody. And we got questions from my Twitter, we got questions from Facebook, we got questions from my substack. Before we get into it though, I got to acknowledge our sponsor, Grizzly Up Soap company, The family owned soap business right here in Western Kentucky. They got a store in downtown Hopkinsville. They handcraft small batch all natural goat milk soaps and personal care products. I love the Kentucky Bourbon soap. I shower with this almost every day. And on the days I don't shower with Kentucky bourbon, I shower up with loaded weapon. And these are fantastic. They smell great. They got great scents for your bathroom. They make you smell good. And every bar is packed with goat's milk, shea butter and other skin loving ingredients. You'll get a rich, creamy lather that actually leaves your skin soft and moisturized from bold, adventurous scents like the ones I mentioned, Kentucky Bourbon and Loaded Weapon. All the way up to a brand new product they've got coming out here really, really soon. I can't wait to announce it to you. And we've got a special thing that we're going to be putting together with Grizzly Up Soap and the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. And you're going to love this. I'm excited about this idea. We should be announcing it really, really soon. But we got something for every grizzly bear out there. So if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly. Shop the shop at 200 East 9th street in Hopkinsville, Kentucky or grab yours online at Grizzly Up Soap Company. Just the wonderful little family there. Travis and Chasity are great people. Grizzly Up Soap Company Support them because they support us. Natural goodness made bold right here in the bluegrass state of Kentucky. All right, Steve, what do you got for me? [00:11:34] Speaker A: All right. All right. The first question is from someone who's been on your show before and he's a top podcaster, Jamie Ward. He asked if Andy Kaufman's health doesn't fail him and he stays well, could you have seen him involved in the Rock and Wrestling connection or does Andy just continue to come out to Memphis so he can get his wrestling fix? [00:12:01] Speaker B: Well, I mean, gee, that's a hard. I mean, all these what if questions are difficult because they're just speculation. Right. But I know, I mean, I've heard Jerry Lawler say on many occasions that if Andy could have, he would have given Hollywood up entirely and just been in the wrestling business. I mean, that's how much he loved wrestling. So that's an important thing to remember because he wasn't just doing wrestling as a comedy routine or to generate publicity. He was really obsessed with the wrestling business. I mean, he loved the Tennessee territory specifically. He liked the crowds, he liked the angles, he liked the way they did. I mean, essentially, when these actors come into pro wrestling back in this day, I know Terry Funk has talked about Sylvester Stallone when he came to matches and all, he's like, these guys are the greatest actors in the world. I mean, they don't get. And the greatest stunt men, too, they don't get second and third takes or they don't get to do it over. They have to get it all right the first time. So I think Andy had that appreciation for the improvisation of wrestling. Would he have been involved in the Rock and Wrestling connection? I'm sure Vince maybe would have tried to get him involved. Maybe he would have done a one off angle or maybe he'd appeared at WrestleMania or something. But I think the most likely thing would have been coming back again and again to Memphis. That's, that's my thought. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Well, for those that don't know, I mean he, he enjoyed those trips to Memphis so much. I guess the legend says he didn't even cash any of his checks. So that's how much he, he loved doing. He did it at gratis. He's wanted to be part of the wrestling business and, and I'll give you my take on the New York thing. Yeah, you know, he did do the My Breakfast with Blassie cult film and from what, what the, they had talked about on the Letterman show, Blassie and Kaufman were talking about doing a series of remakes of classic Laurel and Hardy films that would be comedy films together. Now had they pulled that off and let's just say even if they were just cult, cult hit movies, I'm sure Vince would have had him come on the TNT show and got him involved with maybe Mula or Wendy Richter or something in that time frame. But I, I think, you know, whether it was just doing that as a one off or coming back to Memphis periodically, maybe once every other year or something like that, I, I think he could have remained a interesting figure on the outskirts of wrestling in the 80s. [00:14:48] Speaker B: I, I, yeah, I mean, I think so too. So I, I think he would have been very, very involved. I think he would have kept his feet planted in Memphis. But like you say, I think he would have done some sporadic appearances and that would have been good for wrestling too. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that. And he was very entertaining. He was quite different than anybody else. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he would have, as everybody would. I mean that's 40 years ago. So, you know, I don't know. He would have, as the 90s came in in the early 2000, he would have had to have, he would have had to change up his act a little bit. You know, Andy was not the most politically correct dude, so I think those pressures would have been a part of that whole thing too at some point. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Well, we have a gentleman who is asking a whole bunch of questions, but I'm going to narrow it down a little bit. Greg Gagny is asking what wrestler is the only to hold the AWA and NWA title at the same time? He also asked, what is the oldest regional title in wrestling in history? And what state title is the oldest state title in wrestling? [00:16:00] Speaker B: Well, this is an old question that just drives George Shire insane, because the answer is Pat o'. Connor. But George says and disputes that pat was ever AWA champion. I mean, the thing was in 1960, when the AWA split off, they created a new championship and gave Pat o' Connor an opportunity to come and wrestle. And of course he never did because it wasn't officially booked through the nwa. And so that made Verne the. The AWA champion. So essentially he's. He never did hold it. So it's not really a valid question. If you want to have some fun, we'll have George answer that one. But the oldest title, I'd have to be some version of the American title, which would be like a United States title. But I mean, those titles were all made up by wrestlers back in those days. I mean, the American title goes all the way back to the 1860s. So, I mean, those guys were just making up names for their championships. And a lot of those wrestlers just used the championship as a way to build the or turn the tip, which was essentially to build a crowd. If you want to know more about all this, listen to the history of wrestling in Texas on stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw, because we're talking about how the carnies built a crowd, how they worked, the stick man would work them up, how they would turn the tip, how they would locate the marks, about how they would put plants. Often they would dress up a guy as a sailor and this guy had just gotten out of the navy somewhere and he's enjoying himself at the carnival, whatever. Were all the time being a plant to drive the drama in the wrestling match. So probably some version of that American type title. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Very interesting. Clark Hoga, In a perfect world, how far could have JYD gotten in the wwf? [00:18:15] Speaker B: Well, this is a popular what if thing too, because of the popularity of the junkyard dog. And of course, our friend Greg Klein wrote a whole book on, on JYD. He got to the WWF in 84. He was a massive star in Mid south wrestling. That's where all of his star power came from. Not that he wasn't a magnetic and interesting star in the wwf, but he wasn't as huge as he was in Mid south and in New Orleans. I mean, he had charisma, he had connection. He was one of the biggest personalities of his era. He had presence, he had reliability as a baby face. He had proven drawing power for sure. I mean, Watts territory almost collapsed without him. And then they came back and had one of the strongest years in 84 that they had in their whole promotion. Once Dundee and the Tennessee guys got there, even when his push was kind of waning in the wwf, I think he stayed popular. But he won the wrestling classic in 85. You and I talked about that on the WWF 85 show. He got in a program with Greg Valentine. To the best of my. You know this stuff better than I do. He had a good feud with Valentine and Harley Race and the Funks and Adrian Adonis. I just published a photo the other day of Terry Funk hitting him with the branding iron. He teamed up with Hogan. I mean, Dog was definitely the B show headliner. I think by 88, though, he was lower on the card and he even lost to Rick Rude at the first Summer Slam. I don't know. I mean, you're not going to get over Hogan. I mean, you're just not. He's the undisputed number one Baby Face, hands down. Nobody is ever going to. I mean, Vince is not going to split the spotlight. That was one of his booking principles. Don't split the spotlight. I think Dog gained weight. He had conditioning problems. He had some other chemical abuse issues and this, that and the other. I think he pretty much. I think he had his run the way it probably was going to work out. What do you think, Steve? [00:20:34] Speaker A: I agree with what you just said. I think it worked out for the best. The way he was booked. I mean, as far as. In a perfect world, he asked. Yes. They could have made him maybe intercontinental champion, say, at WrestleMania 1, and maybe made him be a kind of IC champion for most of 85 or even most of 86. But the way they did with having Santana have it, and then Valentine and Santana again and Randy Savage, and Savage holds it for a long time, and then Steamboat beats him. I think that was really probably better for the promotion to. To have kind of a. Have it be the worker's belt, as some of the smart fans have described it. [00:21:18] Speaker B: And Dog. And Doc. Dog was not known for being a worker. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:22] Speaker B: I mean, well, he worked. You know, it's. It's kind of like splitting hairs on what a worker is. I mean, for his. For what he did, he was excellent. But I think. Yeah, but he was not. [00:21:34] Speaker A: I think he's an example of. I think he's an example of that type of wrestler. You know, we always hear that cliche of, oh, he didn't need a belt. I think JYD is one of those guys that just didn't need a belt. I mean, yeah, he. I saw him on a lot of B shows in my hometown in Binghamton. He would wrestle Savage for the intercontinental belt, and that was a perfect placing for him, I thought. He's. He's headlining a B show and a B city, and. And, you know, he's getting lots of notoriety. [00:22:03] Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, I mean, obviously in a perfect world, he's not gonna replace Hogan. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:09] Speaker B: But. But, I mean, is it fair to say he becomes like a cornerstone upper mid to main event babyface? And he's got a couple of IC reigns. [00:22:20] Speaker A: That would be nice. Yeah. [00:22:22] Speaker B: I mean, his actual run was still memorable, but if the IC belt is the workers title, he's not. They don't exactly fit that. You know, I'm. I'm with you. I don't even. I mean, it's nice to think about that, but I don't even know if you needed to put that. Him in that whole IC picture. I mean, he's just. He was charismatic enough and you could get heat on him the way he was without having a title involved. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, he was kind of like. He was kind of like Jimmy Snucker was maybe a year or two before he arrived. Yes, Nicker was this extremely popular guy. He didn't have a belt. He didn't need a belt, you know, and same with jyd. That's just the way I look at it. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome, man. I like it. [00:23:06] Speaker A: All right, so we have. Mark Mansuo is, of course, a great contributor here to the website. He says, who are some promoters who get no or little credit for their contributions to wrestling and should not be forgotten. [00:23:20] Speaker B: This one's always interesting because in my mind, I'm always thinking, okay, do you mean promoters or do you mean booking office owners? To me, a promoter is a guy who promotes one town. And so, I mean, I don't think much Nick is ever going to be forgotten, I don't think. I'll tell you a couple of guys who I think haven't really gotten their due. I've really tried to shine a light on what they've done the last few years, especially in the Jim Barnett series for Briscoe and Bradshaw. One of them is Fred Kohler. I mean, I just think that what he did with the Dumont network having two shows nationally broadcast out of Chicago, who at the time. And I just wrote a piece about the consolidation of New York City in June of 1956, where Vince McMahon Sr. Came in and consolidated all the promoters so they could have A unified effort in presenting wrestling in New York City, which was huge because New York was obviously the number one media market. You have Chicago that is fast growing. It's never going to be higher than number three media market in the United States. But for a long period there in the 1950s, it was. It rivaled St. Louis. And Kohler and Mushnick were working together in the National Wrestling Alliance. But Chicago was a hot town, and it was sort of a hot town all the way through its existence, all the way into the 80s. But back there in the 50s, it. It was the mega center for television, and it was sending these wrestlers out on national tours. I mean, essentially, Fred Kohler and Chicago made Vern Gagne. I mean, they made him a superstar. So I don't think we should ever forget Fred Kohler's contribution. I don't think we should forget Don Owen, his family in the Pacific Northwest. Somebody asked about why 1925 is significant. That's the year that Don Owen's father, Herb Owen, established a promotion there in Portland, along with Ted Thigh. And that whole Owen family probably doesn't get as much recognition as they should for promoting. I think about town promoters like the Mernicks in North Carolina who promoted a lot of Virginia and North Carolina shows. They actually promoted Raleigh and, you know, the Crocketts get a whole lot of credit. They own the booking office. Their family has been spotlighted for years, but the Mernicks were such an important piece of that in the Carolinas. I think about Fred Ward in Georgia, who promoted Columbus and Albany and Macon and Augusta, and Atlanta is where the booking office is. And so the Atlanta promoters who would have been Paul Jones and Jim Barnett, they get a lot of credit and Fred Ward doesn't. But Fred Ward had more of Georgia than those guys did. So I think about ken Moore in Fort Worth, who promoted for years for Ed McLemore in the Dallas booking office. Ken Moore also was the promoter for rock and roll bands, and he pretty much promoted all the Elvis Presley tours in Texas in the 1950s. So the term promoter to me is a little out of whack when people use it. When I talk about a promoter, I'm talking about somebody who promotes a wrestling show in a wrestling town. Paul Bosch, who promoted Houston, Sam Mushnick, who promoted St. Louis. These guys pretty much focused in on one town. And there are countless, countless guys who promoted wrestling in towns that we don't remember them and don't even know their names. But we should. We should dig and learn and find out And I've tried to do a lot of research on that, and I'm always excited when I find out, like, Floyd Emerson. You got any idea what town Floyd Emerson promoted? [00:27:51] Speaker A: The name I've heard before, but I saw the top of my head. I don't know. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah, Floyd Emerson promoted down in Beaumont, Texas, and he promoted down there. And he was actually part of. He was one of the promoters of the booking office in Houston when Houston did actually have a territory. And so guys like that, Dorothy Living Good, who was the female promoter in San Antonio, all of these people who did all this great work to keep wrestling going in these years, they all should be remembered for what they did. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, when you were mentioning cities, one city I was thinking of was actually Montreal. And I know the, the Vashons ran it for a while, but there was a period there in the early 70s where there was, I think, promotional wars and. But they were drawing incredible crowds up there. They were having crowds at the baseball park up there and 20,000 fans. They were ahead of their time at the time. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Two more. One, you just mentioned Montreal. So Eddie Quinn should be remembered. He was an early NWA member, going all the way back to the beginning. And he. He had a falling out with the NWA and Sam, but he was a powerful promoter in Montreal for years. Another guy who our friend Kevin Orcutt posts a lot of material on in our Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook page is Tex Hager, who promoted in Idaho and in Montana and a lot of those western states that we don't really remember that much about as far as being wrestling a wrestling territory. But he sold millions and millions of dollars of tickets out there in the western states with that Tri State sports promotion. And I'm working with Kevin to get some stuff together on Tex Hager. I wrote a biography for him in the Daily Chronicle the other day and got a lot of great feedback on it because he's a guy a lot of people don't know and they never knew about. But from 1951 to 1958, Tex Hager promoted a lot of great shows out there in those western states, towns. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Great answer, Tony, to that question. Lee, Florida asks, what year did Roy Lee Welch start promoting in Florida? What you did to Cowboy Luttrell acquire the territory from him. And when and under whom did the promotion start being referred to as the Tampa booking office? [00:30:28] Speaker B: Well, you would think a guy that has Florida in his name would ask a question about Florida, Right? [00:30:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Lee, Florida does a lot of great work on Facebook. He does this huge Post every week with all these podcasts, and he always includes ours and a little synopsis of what the show is about. And I'm always, as someone who does a lot of work on this stuff every single week, I'm always very impressed with what he does over in his Facebook page. So Roy Welch first went to Florida around 1945. And it's a little bit difficult for us to think. Think about today, about how Florida was in those days. I mean, it was really underdeveloped. They were just starting to develop some of the. Some of the cities and some of the towns. If you really want to go back further than that. I mean, I'm trying to think of the guy's name who was one of John D. Rockefeller of Standard Oil. He was one of his executives. He went in, down there in St. Augustine and in those Gold coast towns and put the railroad in and developed all of those towns. Well, St. Augustine, I think, is the oldest town in America. I think that's where one of the boats that came over here landed. I'm a little short on my American history today, but. So Roy went down there. When you traveled by train, there were really crude roads. You drove from town to town in the automobiles of 1945, whatever that would have been. And I've got some really rare postcards that Roy Welch sent home from Florida. And he talks about how hard the travel is and how much he misses Tennessee. And so he. He was down there promoting from 1945 to 1949. And there are various accounts about how he left Florida and why he left Florida. One of the reasons is it was difficult to manage this huge geographical piece of the United States that he was promoting wrestling in everything from Tennessee to Missouri to Louisiana to Georgia to Alabama to Florida. He just had this humongous piece that it would have taken you three days to get from Nashville to Tampa and three days to get it. Almost like you have to take a week off just to travel between the two. And you can look in his record of matches in his career. There'd be three to six day gaps in it where he's traveling from Tennessee to Florida and back. And I think he just. He couldn't be patient enough to wait for the infrastructure to be built in Florida so that it would have been a way for him to incorporate it all in a little more smoothly. So he ended up exiting Florida in 1949, and Cowboy Latrell came in. That was the year he came in. And Cowboy Latrell was from Chattanooga and had a relationship with the Welches, they knew each other really, really well. He took over And I think 1949 is also the year he established the booking office in Tampa. Roy had one guy that Roy had that a lot of people probably have heard the name. I don't know how familiar they are with Saul Weingroft, but Saul Weingroff was a manager, a heel manager in the Tennessee territory who started out with Roy in Florida. He was actually the promoter of Daytona beach, which was still, it was, turned out to be a big resort town back then. People came to Daytona beach for their vacation and their recreation and saw Weingroff. I've got a lot of pictures of Daytona back then that Saul's son George shared with me. But I think Roy just thought, man, I'd love to have this as part of my empire, but it's just a little too difficult to manage, just a little too far away. [00:34:39] Speaker A: So let me ask kind of a follow up question on that topic. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Sure. [00:34:43] Speaker A: So Cowboy Luttrell is running the Florida promotion and the Tampa booking office. And I'm assuming it's probably the early 1960s. Eddie Graham comes to Florida. Do you think that he kind of did that all on his own, or do you think that the elder Vince McMahon put it in a good word for him with Cowboy Latrell? And is that what really got Eddie the rub to become what Eddie eventually became? [00:35:11] Speaker B: Well, Eddie Graham was also from Chattanooga. So they had a relationship before Eddie just kind of got started in the business with Cowboy Latrell was boxing. And they knew each other before that. Eddie's real name is Gossett. There's another wrestling personality that comes there from his family named Ronnie P. Ronnie P. Gossett. And so Eddie knew Cowboy before they ever went to Florida anybody did. So they. They're both from the same kind of area there in Chattanooga. And I think Eddie found out that Cowboy was down there and what he was trying to do. He. Cowboy had been in Florida for almost 10 years. When Eddie came down there in 1959, that, that run with the Golden Grahams in Madison Square Garden really didn't last that long. They didn't team up. I mean, it was fabulous while it lasted. And they had some knockdown, drag out Madison Square Garden events. But I think. I think being with Dr. Jerry for any length of time at all kind of wore on anybody who did that. And I think Eddie had a vision. He saw his relationship with Cowboy, he thought he could go down there, he could be a baby face in Florida, which he was a huge Baby face. And basically he is the one that laid the foundation for what we know today as championship wrestling from Florida. [00:36:45] Speaker A: Now, Tim Price is asking one man who I never saw in his day, as he's been well gone for some time, was the Grand Wizard. He was the wizard in the WWW half. But Abdullah Farouk in Detroit, when managing the Chic, outside of his manager manager roles, what connection may have brought him into the world of professional wrestling? [00:37:07] Speaker B: Man, boy, I wish I had Brian Solomon here. I don't really know that much about the Grand Wizard, Steve. I mean, this kind of falls a little bit in your wheelhouse. Do you know what the original story was there? [00:37:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Actually he had been a kind of a public relations guy and he had been a radio dj. So he started off in the radio world and I'm sure he helped promote. Sure, the wrestling guys probably bought promotional time on his show and he was like a hype man, a good talker. And through that, I think eventually he made a connection with Eddie Farhad and got him into the business that way. And, you know, he did so well in that promotion and he went to la, they did the same role, play the same role when she went out there to wrestle Blassie and, and Tolos and all the people and, and, and then when it was kind of decided that Abdullah Farouk was going to go to the WWF, Vince McMahon, the elder Vince McMahon, had so much trust in him that he brought him in to actually promote the Boston area. It was, it was, it was the wizard, along with his partner Beautiful Bobby, promoted in the Boston area. I think Abe Ford was the old promoter and they kind of replaced him. And it was, it was around this time that the elder Vince McMahon said to the wizard, hey, you know, my, my son is going to get into this wrestling thing and I want you to kind of shepherd him and show him the ways. And, and I think he mentored Vince in those early years in the 70s and showed him a lot of the things. And as we got to the late 70s, Vince and Linda are running their town in Bangor, Maine. And I think that, you know, he learned so much under the, the teaching of the Wizard, Eddie Ernie Roth, that that's what got him, you know, paved the way for the Vince that we know today that became a billionaire or so. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah, and we've talked before about how we think that he would have continued if his health would have held out. He probably would have been involved with this expansion. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, being that he was so close to the McMahons, I mean, he was like a family member to them and very, very close to the elder Vince McMahon. And it's shocking that they would really pass away like six months apart. Ernie Roth and Mr. McMahon the senior. But yeah, he would have played some sort of a role, the national expansion. And I did have a question, oddball question that I was going to throw your way. [00:39:57] Speaker B: This is not, let me just say this while we got a chance and then don't forget your question. But this is where we also need to advocate and say he ought to be in the hall of Fame. The Ground wizard ought to be in the hall of Fame. You ought to be in every hall of Fame out there. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. And when we did a show with Tony and Brian Solomon and Bob Smith and other people, Greg Klein, we were all advocating for different people. And the one that I was really advocating for was the grand wizard. And I think he didn't even come close. Yeah, I mean he's a way off from making the hall of Fame and the observer. But I mean he really belongs there. I mean he really was a dominant manager in the 70s, very impactful, you know, played a role in, in teaching Vince McMahon. So I mean he's, you know, not many people can say that. [00:40:50] Speaker B: So I agree he should be in every hall of Fame out there. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate that. [00:40:55] Speaker B: Well, I mean that goes to show you, like what you grew up with is what's important to you. Like I just don't know a lot about him. But you grew up with him and Albano and, and Blassie, so I mean they're important. I could tell you what Ken Ramey had for breakfast on the second Tuesday in 1979. I don't know about all the background you just provided, so thank you for, for that. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Well, thank you. Well, I was going to ask you this kind of an oddball question that wasn't on our list. Yeah, you mentioned him a couple of times already in this show. You mentioned Mr. Jim Barnett, who I know you know a lot about. I was listening to the Jim Cornett Drive Thru show the other day just yesterday. And Jim Cornett and Brian last were talking about Jim being in, in WCW in 1989. And I mean they had a very interesting discussion about how Jim found out that certain people in the front office of WCW didn't really want the Midnight Express and Jim Cornette there any longer or didn't want to push them anymore. And he mentioned the kind of the movers and shakers at that time in the WCW included George Scott, who was about to be Fired. And he also mentioned that Jim Barnett was there. So what my question to you is, Tony, it's interesting to think back that, you know, in 1983, Jim Barnett and Ole Anderson were probably the two most important people running the Georgia promotion. But here in 1989, Barnett's back in WCW and Ole Anderson is. Is also now in wcw. My question is, did they ever, as far as you know, did they ever interact again during that period in the late 80s or early 90s? [00:42:44] Speaker B: Did, I think. But I think that it was a very. It was a we got to work together kind of thing. We're not going to send Christmas cards to each other. We're not going to have. We're not going to have dinner together. We're not going to go to lunch or anything, but we're going to exist because that's what's required for us in this job. I think that was kind of the relationship they had. It's interesting too that Barnett ended up back at WCW because he negotiated the sale of Crockett and Turner because he had been fired by Vince, who found out that Barnett and Crockett had had dinner together. And they went out to dinner just as friends and just talking. And Vince found out about it and he was like, you're going out to dinner with the enemy and fired Barnett. And Barnett tried to commit suicide after he was fired by Vince McMahon. And they kept him on for a little while, but then they eventually phased him out and then he went to Jimmy Crockett and found another. Jim Barnett was the most adept person. If I ever needed a job, I would want him helping me because he created more jobs for himself than anybody I can think of in the wrestling business. He went to Jimmy Crockett. He worked out the deal with. I mean, he was there. I mean, even when WCW sold to Vince McMahon in 2001, Barnett went with the sale and ended up at WWF after that. I mean, he. From 19, let's see, 1949 until 2005 or 6 when he passed away, Barnett was involved in every major big deal that happened in pro wrestling. He's the most amazing. I mean, there's a reason he's called the wizard because he's the most amazing character. But I don't think they. I don't think they spent a lot of long conversations with each other. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Well, that's very interesting. And, and you know, for anybody who's still defending Vince McMahon, there is a famous story that when Barnett supposedly tried to commit suicide and, and they broke into his apartment, they found him on the floor with pills surrounding him and they had to call 91 and 911 and help him get resuscitate him. Supposedly it was either Vince McMahon or I think it was Pat Patterson basically laughed at him and saying, oh, he looks so pathetic on the floor. Or something to that effect. [00:45:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:19] Speaker A: I thought that was so beyond insensitive and just kind of disgusting. [00:45:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I wish I would. I mean, I'm so fortunate to know Gary Jester now. I mean, we're friends and it was the anniversary of Jim passing away here just a couple weeks ago and I got a couple of great, wonderful texts from Gary Jester, who took care of Jim and administered his estate after he passed. And just I've learned so much more about Jim through him. I would give anything to have spent time with Jim Barnett. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, and I like Gary Jester too. I admire him for putting out those excellent yearbooks for the AWA and the WWWF in the late 70s that looked so professional. [00:46:06] Speaker B: Well, there's. There's another guy right there who, who's a promoter that should be remembered. Gary Jester. He promoted Chicago. He promoted Starcade 87. He promoted in Baltimore for Crockett. He promoted Towns. And a lot of times those guys who took care of the Towns are not guys we remember, but we should remember Gary Jester and we should have him here on the show. I'm trying to talk. [00:46:31] Speaker A: I enjoy hearing from him. He sees a fountain of information for sure. [00:46:35] Speaker B: The another guy that we should have, and I know you and I have talked about it briefly and he's probably listening right now is Kerry Silkin. We need to have him on too because he's got beyond his involvement. He's just as a fan, got so many great memories. I'd like to tap into been to. [00:46:51] Speaker A: I would. I would love to hear him talk about being at the Shea Stadium shows. I think he may have been there in 1976. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Oh, well, maybe we should see if we can't get him on for a few minutes to talk about it. [00:47:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. So we have some more questions. Jason Monday asks. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Jason's a great guy. [00:47:10] Speaker A: Who in your opinion was the best utility wrestler of the territory days? Someone who could fill in any role. Baby face, heel mask, tag team manager, announcer, referee, booker, etc. Kind of like a utility baseball player. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Man, this one came to me so fast and it's probably one that maybe a lot of people wouldn't say. Do you have an answer to this? [00:47:36] Speaker A: I was just thinking about more of the recent eras. I guess in the 80s, I would have gone with somebody like a Leo Burke type. Just somebody who was a good jack of all trades guy. But who are you thinking of? [00:47:47] Speaker B: This guy? I mean, I would give anything to have his DNA. This guy, less Thatcher. [00:47:53] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:47:53] Speaker B: I mean, my gosh, he did every job in wrestling. He was a great baby face. Singles. He was great babyface, tag team wrestler. He was a great producer. He was a great booker. He's a great announcer, referee, I mean, you name it. This guy did everything in the. In pro wrestling. I. I would have to say the first. He's the first one that came to my mind when I saw this question. Les Thatcher. [00:48:19] Speaker A: That's a great answer. And he even did, like, Gary Jester, even prod some of the best programs ever. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just did the first pro wrestling T shirt. [00:48:30] Speaker A: Wow. [00:48:31] Speaker B: He did the Briscoe Brothers Body Shop T shirt with Jerry and. And Jack. And I mean, he's just. You can't name. You cannot name something in wrestling that he hasn't done. [00:48:47] Speaker A: He was on MTV training wrestlers. I mean, he's. He's been in every. Every job you can imagine. [00:48:52] Speaker B: That's another thing he's done that I didn't mention. Trainer. I mean, he still trains guys. He still puts on seminars. He still got a podcast. I. I want some. Is there a DNA transplant procedure that's been. I mean, I'm sorry, can I just throw this in real quick, please? I recently lost my uncle. I've got one uncle left. And my other uncle passed away here about two or three weeks ago. My dad's sister is 86. I believe she just had a birthday. And my dad's oldest brother is 87. And he sat next to me in the. In the funeral in the pew, and I had my arm around him, and I'm like, unk, let me tell you something. I think I am more like you than I am my dad. At least I hope so, because you are doing great at 87. And I want to be getting around and be as effervescent as he is, for sure. And Les Thatcher, too. [00:49:51] Speaker A: Wow. Well, I think Les Thatcher was the ultimate answer to that question. But another guy who, when you gave me all those facts and figures, kind of came to my mind, would be Red Bastine. [00:50:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:50:03] Speaker A: He was another guy. He was a booker. He was a great wrestler. He was a promoter. I mean, he did pretty much every role. I think Les probably did more than he did, but. But still, quite a few things he did. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Oh, and not that Les isn't because he is. I have a hard time. James Beard is going to be coming up here in a week or so on the show. Who's going in the Trago Stairs hall of Fame this year as a referee and just all around. I mean, James Beard is another guy who's done a lot of different jobs in wrestling, but he always talks glowingly about Red Bastine. And I, I've never come across anybody that had a bad thing to say about Red Besting. [00:50:47] Speaker A: He's a guy that is not in the observer hall of Fame but needs to be. I mean, you know, there are some criteria as to what gets you in the hall of Fame and a lot of it has to do with you have to be big box office, you have to be this or that. But he had great technical wherewithal in the ring. I mean he could put on technical marvel matches that most people couldn't. So you know, the observer was built on work rate. He's your work rate champion, so hopefully someday he'll get in there. [00:51:18] Speaker B: And he had an extensive career in carnivals. He worked the carnivals. He was quite a shooter. And back in those days if you didn't win, you lost your job. And so you, you could not pin the guy. You had to make them submit and the crowd had to hear it. You had to make them submit loudly. And Red did that, did that. And if you think the, if you've heard all the stories about Mid south wrestling and the trip and the travel and the miles and all that, just imagine the carnivals, what though? I mean, those guys were sleeping in wagons that had one bunk stacked on top of each other. I mean, and you were making, you know, a dollar or two a match. So I mean that, that, that's a character builder there. And I've always had heard great things. George Shire was a very close friend of Red Bastine and just heard nothing but great things about him. As a matter of fact, George and I have a show that we've did quite some time ago that I've never run here at the Pro wrestling time Tunnel that I need to get on the schedule because it's a, a, it's a nice show about Red. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Well, one of my Internet friends, he's always very supportive. William Maybach jet asks, Tony is a business coach. If you were hired by either AW or wwe, what would be some advice that you would give them to grow their business and not alienate their consumer base? Also, booking wise, from all of your knowledge of wrestling history, what's one piece of booking advice that we give to either booker. I love the shows you put out, and you appear as someone who really only started watching, but as he's someone that only started watching wrestling in the 2000s, he. He looks forward to every episode to expand his knowledge and history of the sport that we all love. [00:53:06] Speaker B: It's a hard question to answer. It's William, right? [00:53:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:53:12] Speaker B: It's a hard question to answer, William, because we don't have all the facts. Like, when I get hired to go in to do a business coaching engagement, there is no stone left unturned. I mean, I. I get to see everything. I get to see the reports from the customer service center. I get to see the financials, I get to see the minutes of the board meetings, and I get to see everything. And you do get to see a lot of that in wwe. I can't say that I spend a lot of time sitting around analyzing their financials. We don't get any of that with aew. Most of it's rumor, speculation, innuendo of people on the Internet trying to figure. I don't know why people do this, but they spend a lot of their time in their life that they will never get back again trying to figure out if AEW is profitable or not. And you'll never know that because you don't have all the facts because it's a privately held company. And not only that, Steve, here's another thing that people. I know, they don't take this into consideration is that there are so many ways to be profitable. I mean, there are so many different financial things that you can do with a company that at the end of the day and your EBITDA or whatever, that you can show a profit or not show a profit by just manipulating some levers within the finances, like depreciation and those kinds of things that we don't know. I mean, we just don't know all the assets they own, and we just don't know all that. I can give you just some quick overview things, though, like for wwe, first of all, well, you got to predict what you got. I mean, any company that's number one in any industry, whoever they are. The main thing is you've worked very, very hard. You've put in all these years, WWE, since the national expansion, that's 41 years ago, maybe 42 if you count 84, that's 42 years of what we call goodwill that you have built with fans and you. I mean, when it comes right down to it, and I said this on the WrestleMania program we did. When it comes right down to it, WrestleMania is a wrestling card. It's like any other wrestling card in America that's being held tonight or tomorrow night or this weekend. It's just got rocket fuel put on it and 42 years worth of brand development and they have built it and built it and built it, but it's still a wrestling card. But they have built this sizzle and the stake and the hype and now they've got 42 years of history behind it. So you got to protect that is what I'm saying. Number one, you got to take care of that. I wouldn't do anything if I was the advisor for wwe and they do do things from time to time that I think does cut chunks out of their goodwill. It cuts chunks out of the hard work and equity that they have built. And I wouldn't do anything that did that. I wouldn't do anything that would get even close to damaging any of that wonderful long term reputation that's been built. Second thing I do is I would diversify my revenue streams. I know they're cutting way back on live events. I wouldn't do that. I think that, and I think that's, I think that's the sign of somebody who owns a wrestling company that are not wrestling people. They just look at the product and go, oh, you know, most people are watching on television or they're watching on streaming. And our big events are our big monthly streaming things. So we could save money by not going to all these towns. I mean, I mean, I could see where they would think that without knowing a whole lot about the wrestling business. But I think over time what you're going to see by doing that is you're going to see an erosion of talent because they're not getting as much work as they need to get. The thing about it is in the wrestling business, you need to work to get good. Any skill set. Even if you wanted to play golf or you wanted to learn how to play piano, or you wanted to learn how to work an Excel spreadsheet, you would need to do it every day. You need to go play golf every day. You need to go and do your Excel spreadsheet every day. You need to go and do whatever it is you want to be really good at. A lot of people are like, well, Tony, how did you get so good at this historian thing so fast? Well, I work on it every day, you know, and I contribute every day and I write every day and I do these things every single day because I know Repetition builds skill. If you want to be good at something, you have to do it over and over. I will never be a good golfer. I don't love it that much. I don't love it enough to play it every day. But wrestlers need to work. They need to be in front of people and live audiences and they need to be in the ring and they need to be taking bumps and they need to be working with each other and they need to be learning. So I would try to protect my talent by not cutting back on the house shows. You got to be strategic in where you go and what buildings you run and what the audience is. The other thing, and this might be the most difficult thing because we used to have this in broadcasting all the time. The word on the street and the words that people would call in on the phones or the scuttlebutt would dictate the strategy and it is worse than ever now. I would never let anything on the Internet dictate my strategy to me. I mean, I think we see wrestling companies doing things that are directly related to the online narrative. And I think you just gotta shut that out. You gotta put your blinders on, you got to put your cover your ears and just say this is our plan and we're not going to listen to all the static out there, all the long term noise. And then I already mentioned this, but I think for wwe they got to have a talent pipeline and NXT is great, but I think they need to really focus in on being able to. I mean, because you can't just go to other companies and get talent anymore. There, there isn't that many. And even in those other companies, there in that many good people. I mean, I think, and you might disagree with me on that. I can't figure out where Steve is on Jade Cargill, but I mean, I'm almost thinking they had a little bit of buyer's remorse there where they got her, and then when they got her, she wasn't as good as they thought she was and then they thought they could develop her. And that's a little hubris of success too. When you get really successful and everything you do pretty much turns to gold, you start thinking that everything you do will turn to gold and it doesn't work that way. And you end up making some decisions that you probably shouldn't make. Putting an undertaker in charge of AAA seems to be working out. I mean, it's given him some experience as a booker and all of that, but those are just some of the things that I would do I. I really don't know AEW enough to give you a lot of advice there. A lot of that advice that I would give. WWE would be the same, right? I think AEW has a problem trying to figure out who they are. You know, they need to figure out this is who we are, come hell or high water. And I think Tony, he's one of the people who needs to shut out the noise. He needs to shut out the WWE noise. Like the WWE says one thing on their press conference, or they say one thing that gets out there on the wrestling sites, and he's responding to it, like, oh, I heard what they said. I don't know why they'd say that. And I'm just like, why are you even listening? You need to create your own road and stay on it and don't worry about. You know, that it's not easy to do. But I think when you're a CEO of a company that is in a flanking position like AEW's in, where you're trying to gain all the audience you can, I think you've got to make sure you're true to what you are as a product. And I think there's two. I don't know. I just. I don't know it well enough to really speak on it intelligently. I should just leave it at that. [01:01:40] Speaker A: No, it was a great answer. I'm going to ask a question from Jimbo White. He asked, if Bobby Shane would have not perished in the plane accident, do you think he would have been considered an elite booker? [01:01:57] Speaker B: Probably. We don't have a crystal ball or anything. I mean, I know he was very well thought of. I know he was running in the booking genius circles. You know, I know Bill Watts, Jerry Jarrett, Eddie Graham. I know Eddie Graham especially thought a lot of him. He's really died too young to really be able to tell what would have happened. I mean, he was. He was a heel who could get enormous amounts of heat and contributed greatly to Jerry Lawler's career. He contributed greatly to the history of Memphis wrestling. He's the guy that suggested to George Barnes and Bill Dundee that they come to America and that they should only work for Jerry Jarrett in Tennessee with Goulas Welch. I mean, which. I mean, he contributed to Jerry Lawler and he contributed to Bill Dundee. I mean, what bigger feud is there in Memphis wrestling history? I mean, that thing ran on for 20 years. So, I mean, he had a brilliant mind. He had a young mind that wasn't well developed and had not had enough seasoning. But I think. I mean, the thing you got to keep in mind about bookers, I'll say this too. And the question isn't really about bookers in general, but about Bobby Shane. But I will say this. We see throughout wrestling history, bookers be successful in one territory and not successful in others. So I think Bobby Shane could have been successful in Florida. He might have been somewhat successful in Georgia, he might have been somewhat successful in Tennessee. But I don't think you could have. I don't think you could have dropped Bobby Shane into any territory and he would have been a great booker, because I don't think you could drop any booker in any territory. I think. I think. I mean, Tom Ernesto was awesome in Georgia. He was somewhat good in Nick Gulas territory in Tennessee. But when he went to work for Jerry Jerry last like six weeks, I mean, it was horrible. It was terrible in 1985. So some bookers are good in some territories and terrible in others. So to say he would have been a great booker across the board. I'm not sure you can say that about anybody, but, you know, I mean, all signs point that he would have been successful. [01:04:23] Speaker A: When I heard that question, it reminded me of Jake Roberts. I mean, Jake Roberts, a lot of people said, oh, he's got a great mind for the business. But, you know, Jake had his demons, Jake had his problems. I'm not saying that Bobby Shane had problems like that, but it's just a reach to say, hey, you know, had he lived, would he have been elite? I mean, he had the potential to be elite, but delivering it is another thing. [01:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to say. I mean, certainly he had the trajectory, but we don't know. I mean, we don't know. [01:04:54] Speaker A: Another great guy who I've had a chance to talk to with on the phone, Rick Whitmore. [01:04:58] Speaker B: Oh, yes, he ordered some Grizzly up soap. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Oh, he's a great guy, he says. Being a guy from St. Louis, why do you. Why do you think after Sam Mushnick retired, why didn't Larry Manosek just stay with the same formula, record two or three studio shows to promote the up and coming Keel Auditorium or Checkerdome shows? It still worked in Georgia and Mid Atlantic. Or was Vince taking over the wrestling at the Chase time slot just to do in the St. Louis promotion? [01:05:28] Speaker B: Man, that was such a heartbreaking thing to watch St. Louis die. And we see that so many times in wrestling history where the primary promoter is gone and the territory just dies. I mean, that's. That's what happened To Nashville as a wrestling city was. As Nick Goulas promotion died, so did wrestling in Nashville. And that's terrible because wrestling in Nashville, that's what made Memphis. There's no Memphis without Nashville. And St. Louis died when Saint. When Sam Mushuk retired in 1982, St. Louis wrestling pretty much died. And there were so many cooks in the kitchen. I mean, you had Harley Race in there, you had Bulldog Bob Brown in there, you had Bob Geigel in there, you had Larry Matazek in there. And they were all trying to work together and they were all partners. I think Verne even had a piece of it one time. [01:06:32] Speaker A: He was part of it. [01:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just think. I think it was a little microcosm of what became like a pro wrestling USA that couldn't survive because there were just too many bosses and not enough executors. So I think that's kind of what happened to St. Louis is it just was rudderless. It had too many. Too many guys wanting to take it in a certain direction. And I mean, I hate to say this because I really like all the people involved. I have nothing but respect for Harley Race and Bob Geigel. But Kansas City got progressively worse. I mean, it got progressively worse starting in the late 70s. And then you have the same guys that kind of took over St. Louis that had been running Kansas City along. Then you add in a Larry and a Vern or whatever. It just wasn't a good mix. Whereas when Sam had it, there was one guy in charge and there was one voice and there was one direction, and it was going to be Sam's direction. No, I mean, he had. I just wrote an article the other day about the booking with Sam Mushnick in St. Louis. He had Bobby Bruns, he had Pat O'. Connor, but it was a lot like it was under Bill Watts in Mid south or under Eddie Graham in Florida, which they both. They learned from Doc Sarpolos. You oversee it and you keep it just. Stu Hart in Calgary, you oversee it and you bring in bookers, but it's obviously going to stay in the direction that you say because you're the overseer. And I just don't think they had the overseer who could say, hey, we got a lot of great ideas, but we're going this way. I think a lot of guys had a lot. I think Larry was a guy probably. I wasn't sitting in the room, but I'd say Larry was probably wanting to preserve the St. Louis wrestling history. And I would say that Bob and Harley were wanting to go in a certain direction and I don't know, I just, again, I wasn't there. I don't know. But just based on what we do know, I think it was too many cooks in the kitchen. What do you think, Steve? [01:08:48] Speaker A: I mean, from the way I understand it, I mean, I think Larry was trying to run some shows on his own. Like in 83, he was almost like an outlaw promoter, I think. I mean, there was a St. Louis Wrestling Club where Vernon and you know, Geigel and the other partners were all a part of Harley. But Larry was trying to kind of promote these shows with Brody and kind of independent wrestlers like at the time, like guys like Mulligan and Volkov, guys who were independent. But when Vince came in and he did offer Larry a job in the beginning, I guess Larry was interested at first. It didn't pan out for him. But Vince eventually became, you know, entranced in St. Louis and well, it took [01:09:38] Speaker B: a while for that to happen too. I mean, he didn't draw well, but. [01:09:43] Speaker A: But I mean, I've seen the shows in the attendance like in 84 and 85, like the, the NWA show was like drawing like maybe 3 to 5000 and the WWF show is drawing about the same. So like they were just kind of splitting the town in half. There wasn't really anybody winning that wrestling war. But just over time the St. Louis Wrestling Club dried up and Vince was the only one left. And you know, WCW eventually went there and Jim Crockett did, of course. So. [01:10:12] Speaker B: And I think they were doing what I was saying earlier about the business advisor question. I don't think they ever protected. They didn't protect the core of what they had. I think Crockett brought in their particular brand and style and Vince brought in his brand and style. And he did do the Sam Mushnick Battle Royale and tournament. And I mean, but the core audience that had been coming to St. Louis Wrestling for all those years, they stopped going because it wasn't their wrestling. And that's what I mean, when Sam retired, that sort of died. And after that happens, you can't bring it back. [01:10:57] Speaker A: Drew Farmer, this is from Substack. Okay, Drew. Drew Farmer is asking Tony, can you explain the Brass Knucks title the territories used in the past? I've always heard that the Brass Knucks is a regional title, but was never explained. For example, was it just a no DQ match like a hardcore match in the 1990s or 2000s? Or did someone wear the Brass Knucks? [01:11:24] Speaker B: Oh, man. Finally A question I can speak with in confidence. All right, yeah, yeah. It was a regional tough guy brawling style kind of title. It existed in a lot of different territories. It probably came about in the late 50s, through the 60s and through. In the 80s it died, died off. But a lot of times the guys had. It was a taped fist match essentially. A lot of times the guys taped their fists and it was a somewhat of a mix between wrestling and boxing and it was a street style brawling kind of match. And the name just kind of came from the idea of brass knuckles or illegal weapons that you'd use in street fights. So. And it was usually a no DQ type type of match, almost always with very lax rules. It helped. What it did do was, and I thought it was brilliant booking that they came up with this. And I don't know if Sarpolis came up with this originally because I think it all started in Texas. But it was a way to have a special match for the brawlers, for guys who weren't that great at technical wrestling but could get in there and punch and kick and brawl and have street fights. It was a great way to showcase them and have a title for them. It was sort of a tough guy title. Right. And it didn't fit the main event scientific style. It added variety to the card and that's, that's something that the carnivals really influenced wrestling to have a lot of different attractions and something for everybody from the bottom to the top of the card that you could take a break from a regular singles or tag team match. You could have a brass knuckles match. Bull Curry probably was one of the most famous brass knuckle champions because he had that hardcore brawling style. Florida had a long running brass knuckles title from the 60s to the 80s, I think, and this would be a question for George, but I think the AWA had a brass knuckles title. No DQ matches. It was basically the territory era version of a hardcore or street fight. And then of course we got, depending on what town you were in, you know, you would have the Chicago street fight or the whatever street fight. But it, it was all pretty much the same match except for maybe the tape fist. Ronnie Gar. I saw several Ronnie Garvin and Tully Blanchard tape fist matches in the Great American bash in 1986. That was probably the last. Was that the last? They just called it tape fist match, but. But essentially brass knuckles was that. And Ricky Romero Jr. When he was still alive, Ricky Romero had the brass knuckles title in Amarillo and he sent me a picture of the belt that they used in Amarillo and it had some, it was sort of like raised up. On the title plate of the belt was some brass knuckles. It was really a cool looking title. But that was pretty much the brass knuckles. No DQ tape, fist match, something like that. [01:14:46] Speaker A: Now we're down to our final questions. These last three are from X or Twitter. Mark J. Cole asks why did Crockett not absorb the IWA or Bill Watts uwf? It seems like when he acquired them he saw that he was the victor and they were defeated and he squashed them. But he should have absorbed or kept the brand going. Crockett might have become a better national competitor. What do you think about that, Tony? [01:15:13] Speaker B: I think, I think kind of Mark kind of hit it on the head there. I mean I've been a part of a lot of acquisitions and a lot of so called mergers. There's never really a merger. It's somebody won and somebody lost. I mean the acquirer is the dominant. If you ever hear a business leader say yes, we're bringing them in and both cultures are going to exist, that's never going to happen. The acquirer's culture is going to dominate eventually permeate that acquired company. And one of two things, either they're going to increase their scale by acquiring the company or the other company is going to eventually die. Hardly ever do you see where someone buys another company and that company survives on its own. Disney has done that with Pixar where they kept their production animation company and also kept the Pixar company. But it's very rare that that happens. I mean, I think back in those days, and this is a subject that's been talked a lot in podcasts and wrestling media or whatever. But, but I mean, I think Jimmy Crockett took a victory lap. I think the reason, and I've heard Jim Ross talk about how he sold it to Crockett was to buy the television network. The problem was that the Mid South Television Network was built a lot on them paying television stations to run the show. And so Crockett started having bills come due for all these additional. And you'll have to keep in mind too that back in those days you were trying to build a syndication network for advertising. So if you had a syndicated network and you had over 100 markets, you could sell your advertising agency, whoever they were that represented you. And I don't think Crockett had the best. We've talked about before. Vince had top notch team, he had top notch everything. He had a top notch syndicated advertising Sales team. He had everything that you could want in a team to do a national expansion. And Crockett basically had hardly anybody like that. I mean, he had a lot of wrestlers, and he had a lot of promoters, and that was about the extent of his team. And so when he bought UWF, he got close to the 100 syndication number stations, and he did have an advertising agency represent him, and they did sell advertising time. The problem was that his expenses were not. He was not able to service the debt or service the expenses with the amount of revenue that was coming in, because they would pay for advertising 90 days after the television commercial ran, sometimes 120 days. And so when you add 90 to 120 days onto your cash flow, that gets to be pretty tight. And it actually got so tight he was going to go bankrupt, so he had to sell. So I don't. I don't think his mind was on making the UWF the most awesome wrestling company. I think he was trying to figure out. I think he was trying to figure out how do we survive? Because he got that what we were just talking about. He got hubris of success. He thought he could go into Florida and it would be, you know, like the old days. And all of a sudden, we've got the magic touch. We're on tbs, we're selling out in our old JCP territory, and everybody will like this product. Well, Vince changed his product, and a lot of us wrestling fans did particularly like what it changed into, but it did play in the entire U.S. crockett's product played in the South. And not only did he not predict his base, he got out over his skis, and they went out of business. I mean. I mean, simply, that's the longest short of the story. And so if you had to do it all over again, if it would have even cash flowed, which I don't think it probably would have, why would Watts sell it? If that company was successful, and if he was cash flowing and a lot of cash were coming into the office, you think he would have put the company up for sale? He wouldn't have. I mean, Bill Watts a lot of things, but I know one thing, he liked to make money. And so if the pipeline of cash were coming into Tulsa in Bixby, Oklahoma, I don't think he would have put the company up for sale. And that's one thing. And I don't think Jimmy Crockett was experienced enough. I can tell you, as somebody who's bought a lot of companies, involved in a lot of negotiations For a lot of entities, the first question you want to ask yourself is, why are they selling me this? Not just why do I want to buy it, but why are they selling? And I promise you, everything looked really good on the outside. It's almost like buying a car. You know, you buy a car, then all of a sudden, after a couple of weeks, it starts sputtering or it doesn't drive right or whatever. It's like, how come I didn't see this before I bought it? And so the oil states were all in a state of economic depression. [01:20:33] Speaker A: And [01:20:35] Speaker B: the Crockett cup should have told them. The crowd that they had in New Orleans for the Crockett cup in 86, when it was Watson Crockett primarily running the show, the fact that they didn't draw for that show should have told them that. But I think Dusty and Jimmy just thought we got the golden touch. And everywhere we. Everywhere we go, it's going to be like Charlotte and Greensboro. And I mean, they didn't even. We talk about wrestling dying. I mean, I think Jimmy Cornette talked about this recently also. Atlanta died after. After they sold it to. To the contract events and after Georgia Championship Wrestling went out of business. They never drew in Atlanta the way that they drew before, not on a weekly basis. They drew some crowds to Starrcade, but Georgia wrestling was pretty much dead after that. I mean, once. Once that happens, it's. It's really hard. I mean, you talk about promoters that should be remembered, Jim Barnett and Johnny Doyle From 1958 to 1964, that whole swath of the United States and Cincinnati and Cleveland and Indianapolis and that whole Michigan, Detroit, all of that, they were on fire. But none of those towns, after they left, none of those towns ever did that again after the Sheik went out of business. None of the Detroit never did as well as it did before. So you could be the smartest booker in the world, but if you don't have the financial resources, if the fans aren't buying the tickets or watching the television or coming to the shows, it doesn't matter what angle you run, you know, you. There's an old saying in business. You can't move a dead market. And some of those places that Crockett was trying to go just because they wanted to go national, they weren't gonna. They. It wasn't going to go. I mean, they were trying to run in Los Angeles, you know, and why. I guess, you know, to say, well, we got a national. There's a thing in business like, we got that, too. You Know, we got a national business, too. Just like Vince again. Stop paying attention to Vince and pay attention to your business. I could talk about this all day, Steve. I'm sorry. I'm going. [01:22:57] Speaker A: No, it's okay. Now, this question is going to kind of aim at you as a wrestling fan. [01:23:03] Speaker B: Okay. [01:23:03] Speaker A: Bazzy is asking, who did you always want to form a tag team with but never did? [01:23:10] Speaker B: Dusty Rhodes. If I could have been on the apron and Dusty would have been in there, and Dusty would have given me the hot tag. I mean, man, that would have been the ultimate. I mean, when the crowd was hot and Dusty had them going, which probably never would happen, I'd probably the one in there getting the heat and Dusty get the hot tag. But if. If I could do that one time, I think that would be fantastic. [01:23:39] Speaker A: It's really good. I. I think we're down to our final. [01:23:42] Speaker B: Who would you have a tag team with? [01:23:44] Speaker A: Oh, Bruno, of course. Oh, of course. [01:23:49] Speaker B: Why would I not? I know Les Thatcher, but I don't know that answer. [01:23:52] Speaker A: I would. I would let him have the hot tag and he could go clean house. But this last question is by a former Titan Sports employee, the great Ed Helinsky. And he asks, where would you rank Howard Finkel as a ring announcer? Better yet, why that ranking? [01:24:09] Speaker B: It's kind of hard. I thought about this one for ever since it came in. My thoughts on this is the reason. It's. I don't know all the ring announcers, but I think, I mean, gosh, how do you not put Howard. How do you not put Howard Finkel in the top five of all time? Yeah, I mean, you know, longevity, consistency, got an iconic delivery. We still do the new. Because of him. The voice, the cultural impact, the. The hall of Fame recognition. I mean, you gotta. I don't know if I'd put him number one as a personal preference, but I couldn't leave him out of the top five. I mean, Capeta is good, I think. I mean, it's kind of hard to name ring announcers. I got to thinking, I, you know, I sat down one day and made A list of 75 television announcers from the territory days, but I don't know that I could name 10. Reese or Bowden with Mid South. [01:25:19] Speaker A: Jimmy Lennon from LA. [01:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. That's a good one. I can tell you my favorite ring announcer of all time is Dr. Tom Miller in Greensboro. I just thought Dr. Tom Miller was. He was fantastic. All those old starrcades that took place in Greensboro. You. You see him there with the spotlight on him and he's got, he's all dressed up and he's got the microphone and I just thought he was. I remember getting so excited at Starrcade when Dr. Tom Miller would start to announce the match. It just, he'd probably be my all time favorite. But I got to put Howard in the top five. I mean, just, I mean, I could not put him in the top five. [01:26:04] Speaker A: Well, Tony, I think we're at the end of the list. [01:26:06] Speaker B: Is that all? [01:26:07] Speaker A: You did a great job. [01:26:08] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Thank you. What you got any questions for me? [01:26:18] Speaker A: I was going to ask you this question and I'm just curious. One thing I noticed about the books that you're working on and the books that Brian Solomon did, Brian did two books, one on Monsoon, one on the Chic. And both of those gentlemen were not only major wrestling stars, but they were also very big behind the scenes owners of promotions or partial owners of a promotion. And now you're doing, you're doing books on Jim Barnett, who was one of the all time great promoters and also Dory Funk Senior. Would you ever consider doing a book on just, just a performer, not so much a power broker or an owner or a promoter, but a wrestler that was just a wrestler and that's all he was known for? [01:27:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I probably would. I think it'd be harder for me to do that book. I think I'm, I think I am just speaking for myself. I can't speak for Brian, but just for myself, I think I can write those books about the power brokers. I think I'm uniquely gifted to understand markets and understand businesses and understand how entrepreneurial people think. I think it's like I write something on Roy Welch who built an empire or Jim Barnett who built an empire, or a Dory Funk Sr. That included Doc Sarpolos that built an empire in Texas. I think I'm uniquely qualified to write those and I'm more comfortable writing them because it's a space that I know. Getting to a performer, I probably could do it, Steve. I just don't know that I would be as confident doing it. [01:28:17] Speaker A: Well, I think what you bring to the challenge is with these promoters and power brokers, I think you have a great historical knowledge of their impact and that's what makes the book so compelling, is you can tell us what their impact was, whether it was in that particular decade or how we can look back on something 40, 50 years later. What was the impact? And I was, I was, I wasn't asking you like, well, a wrestler is beneath you, but no, no, no. [01:28:52] Speaker B: I just try to look at Warren Buffett. One of my favorite things ever that he said was, I'm smart in spots and I stay around those spots. [01:29:00] Speaker A: Okay. [01:29:01] Speaker B: And that's kind of like my. I got picked that up from him. Like I need to stay around the areas where I got strengths and not the ones that I don't. And there's so many great writers out there. You know, Greg Oliver and Steve Johnson are amazing at writing about lives, you know, about the life of a person, you know about them as a performer. They're fantastic at that. I don't think I could ever approach the greatness that they possess in those areas. Brian's really good at that too. I'm smart and good over in these other spots, you know, where I think [01:29:40] Speaker A: what you will you bring to it though is, is really huge because I think I know that's kind of where my interest in wrestling lies, is more of a look at the historical view of, you know, what happened, what did that affect and what does it look like 50 or 60 years later? And you're covering that. That's what interests me. [01:30:00] Speaker B: So, yeah, I. The thing about Both and Vince McMahon had this too. I think Roy Welch had it, I think Sarpolis, they had the ability to look at the landscape and the population and the tastes of the people and what was going on in the context of the time. And they had the timing to take advantage of it. And I think that's very, I think that's a unique, unique skill. And I think part of what I think the wrestling community at large, when they discuss the death of the territories or when they discuss that, they forget that the tide was going in a certain direction. No matter what you did, you know, the marketplace of the ticket buying fan was going to a different place. And if you didn't go with it, you were going to drown in the tide, if that makes sense. And Vince was so good at knowing the direction the tide was going and the technology changes of television and the technology changes of cable and the way that television was being delivered and the way that the local constraints that were keeping wrestling corralled in certain areas was going away. Those dam walls were breaking so that the wrestling could flow freely over the entire country. He saw that and he went with it. And the guys who didn't went out of business. [01:31:40] Speaker A: Well, that's it. [01:31:42] Speaker B: And the thing that people miss, I think, is that was not something Vince created, that was something he saw. And he got a surfboard and he rode it, but he didn't make the wave. The wave was a demographic psychographic change in the United States and a major technology shift that he saw and took advantage of. And Barnett and the Briscoes saw it first. [01:32:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:32:09] Speaker B: That's why they saw. [01:32:09] Speaker A: I think that's why our show on 1976 is going to be so interesting, the next chapter, because that's going to tie in with that, what you just answered, because this is going to be the first taste of Vince McMahon trying to put on a national event like this. And it may have failed in certain ways, it may have succeeded in others, but he learned a lot along the way, that's for sure. [01:32:32] Speaker B: Well, you find that a lot with successful people. They have so many failures until they succeed. And the thing is, they survived those failures until, like, the failure didn't wipe them out. You know, they were able to learn from it and take from it until they finally did succeed. And when he did finally hit the ball, the ball went a long way. [01:32:57] Speaker A: That's right, ma'. [01:32:59] Speaker B: Am. I want to thank everybody for sending these questions in. We'll have another one at the end of September. And of course, we'll be putting out the call for sending in questions and sending in things that you'd like me and Steve to address and cover. And I for those of you who sent in questions, I hope I covered your question and covered gave it the answer that you were looking for. I tried to do my best. And Steve, thank you for being the administrator and organizer of the questions and feeding those to me. And I always enjoy doing shows with you. [01:33:36] Speaker A: So same here. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot, as always, and I look forward to our next show together. [01:33:43] Speaker B: If I could do 20 podcast shows, I would do a ongoing show with everybody that I do a show with. I would do it again. I would do a show with you. I do a show with George, I'd do a show with Greg, I'd do a show with everybody I do a show with. I would just do those shows every week because you got. You guys are. I'm proud to have you in the pro wrestling time tunnel family. All right, well, that's our show. Don't forget to come to the sub stack. Don't forget to sign up for the only daily Territory history newsletter out there, the Daily Chronicle. It comes to your email box every morning at 5am Central, 6am Eastern. If you want to support the work I do as a pro wrestling historian and you want to support the podcast, you can do that by taking out a paid subscription. It's just $5 a month or if you want to save 10 bucks a year, you can do it for 50 bucks. Steve mentioned one of the features I did recently called Family Tradition. That's an ongoing series. I'm not sure who the next family is that I'm going to work on, but we got great articles on Bob Orton Sr. Great articles on Bob Orton Jr. And we just did a new one on Barry Orton. We've got our long running series the Evolution of Pro Wrestling. We've got Tracking the World Champions. We just did a great feature. Dave Levin, who won the world title in 1936 and defeated what looked like to me I wasn't around back then and I we only have still photographs of Alibaba, but I wouldn't want to get in the ring with him. Dave Levin beat him for the World Championship in 1936. And we talk about the development of Dave Levin and how Jack Pfeffer was involved and how Toots Mott was involved and all of that stuff is really interesting to me because it lays the foundation for what we know as territory wrestling. So that's what we're doing with the Daily Chronicle and the Pro Wrestling Time pedal substack is we're trying to record as much of this history as possible and we're doing it in a multimedia fashion because every Wednesday we have this show, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History show where you can find the video episodes on YouTube channel and the audio. Wherever you download your podcast, just search for Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, hit the follow or subscribe button and please give us a five star rating. Steve works so hard on this show that we want you to give him a five star rating here today. Appreciate you so much. It helps other people find our show. We're the fastest growing wrestling history podcast on the Internet and it's all because of you and your support. The fact that you listen and download our show every single week. And we want to thank you, Steve. Thank you. I will see you in a couple of weeks. We will do another WWWF 1976 show. And for all of you who are listening and watching, thank you so much for your support. If you want a better neighbor, be a better neighbor. Thanks everybody. This is Tony Richards saying so long from the Bluegrass State. [01:36:51] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro [01:36:52] Speaker B: Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [01:36:54] Speaker A: Tune in for another great episode next week. Interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that [01:37:02] Speaker B: have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [01:37:05] Speaker A: We'll release a new episode soon. [01:37:07] Speaker B: Don't you dare miss it.