Episode 74: Cauliflower Alley Club 2026

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things [00:00:06] Speaker C: to talk about and to do today, [00:00:08] Speaker A: covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. [00:00:13] Speaker B: It's the best thing going today, [00:00:18] Speaker D: interviewing [00:00:19] Speaker A: wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. [00:00:34] Speaker D: Well, hey there, everybody. Welcome back to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. I'm your host, Tony Richards, coming to you live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky, right here in the western tip of the Bluegrass State, bordered by the Ohio river and the state of Illinois. Closest town nearby is Paducah, Kentucky. The little town I live in, it's not really even a town. It's. It's more like a village where I grew up here called Lola, Kentucky. There's a sign on one end and you drive like 45 seconds and you pass the sign on the other end. There's not a whole lot here besides the other folks who live here and my mom and me and our little ranch here in Western Kentucky where this show emanates from every single week. We dropped the Show Wednesday mornings, 5:00am Central Time, 6:00am Eastern, and today on the program. And also, I should mention, this show is about territory wrestling history, roughly from the periods of 1925 to 1995. Every now and then we venture outside of that to talk about some current subject or something going on in the world of wrestling. But 98.9% of the time, we're talking about territory wrestling history. And today is no exception. Today we're going to be talking a lot about the Cauliflower Alley Club. And it's only appropriate we'd be talking about Cauliflower Alley because we're also going to be talking about my friend George Goulis. Now, many of you may have seen some of the social media posts that I've put out and also the GoFundMe campaign that we're running for George. And we're running out of time. So today is Wednesday, and we really, really would like to have this money raised for George by the end of this week, if possible. And so many people have opened up their hearts and opened up their wallets and have given money to George. I'm not going to tell you the whole story. I think there's a lot of different stories already circulating out there. I know some people have talked to George, and George is under a whole lot of pressure right now. So sometimes he just tends to say things without thinking about it and then people run with it. So I think you trust me enough, I think my audience and my community trusts me enough to tell you the basic facts that you need to know about it. And essentially, Georgia's like a lot of wrestlers from the territory era. He didn't really save his money. He didn't manage his money that great. He's been a umpire for softball for many, many years. He's also been a basketball referee for high school basketball for many, many years. And a really good one. I've never seen him referee a game. I plan on doing that this fall. But George got basically to the point where he was immobile and his hip, you know, like a lot of pro wrestlers and a lot of, like me, like a lot of non wrestlers. When you get older, just some of your body parts need repair. And George had a really, really bad hip that needed repair. It needed surgery for him to be able to try to go ahead in his 70s to continue to make a living for his household. And if he can't walk, let alone run up and down the court or get around on a softball field, then he's not going to be able to make a living. Well, of course, he also didn't have any health insurance. And the surgery was something. It wasn't elective, it was mandatory. I mean, he was in a position where he really needed to work. And so while the money was diverted from regular living expenses to the surgery, which was very expensive, they ran out of money and had some things back up on them, namely their apartment rent where they were living didn't get paid for a few months. And essentially they got, you know, nine, $10,000 in the hole. And with no way to get out, George still recovering from his hip surgery. He's doing so much better, walking so much better, getting around so much better. But it's not the time of year to work yet for him. And he can't work yet. He's still doing rehab on his hip. And so he got an eviction notice and also doesn't have anywhere to go. And you know, when these kinds of things happen, when I see these things happen to people, I always think this could be me. And I know people can be high minded sometimes and say, well, I would never get myself in that position. Well, God forbid, I hope you never would. And I hope we would all do whatever kind of fiscal responsibility we need to do to be able to keep ourselves out of that position. But the truth is, you and I are typically one or two emergencies away from being in the same kind of situation or position. And also, I don't mind telling you, I got a soft spot in my heart for George Goulis. I don't know. He's just. He's been talked about for so many years. He's been poked fun at. He's been made fun of. He's. All of this stuff has happened. I'm not condemning the people who've done that or talked about that or whatever. You got a right to do whatever you want to do within reason. But if you go back and you watch my interview with George on the Briscoe and Bradshaw, and you watch that hour and a half that he spent talking to Jerry, John, and I, you get a sense for who George really is as a human being and as a person. And he's really just a simple, honest guy and just a nice fellow. And, yeah, he talks a little bit and runs off, you know, a little bit. Strings off in his sentences quite a bit and all that, but who cares, right? Right. I mean, and he needs help. That's all I know. And so he's my friend. He reached out to me and asked me for help. I said, well, George, I can put it on my social media channels for you. Michael St. John has done a great job of organizing the GoFundMe page for George. Other people like Scott Teal, Evan Ginsberg, and I hate to name names because I'll leave somebody out. But people have rallied and are trying to help George. And so I appreciate anything you can do. If you can pray for him, thank you. If you can say good words about him, thank you. If you can restrain from telling, at this point, tired old jokes about him that we've all heard so many times. I just don't even want to hear it anymore. And it's not funny anymore. If you do all those things. It would be appreciated if you just keep a good word in mind for George and his wife Julie, if you can spare a donation, that would be great. I thank you in advance and let you know you're much appreciated for anything you can do. I know people have done up as much as $1,000. I know people have done up as much as $500. I know people who have done $5. And it all adds up. And I just want you to know I appreciate it. Just search online. George Goulis, go fund me. And we're telling just the basic facts. I'm giving you the basic facts that George's money had to go toward his surgery. And so his. His wife was Taking care of their finances. She was under a lot of pressure. She was worried about George, worried that he might not be able to walk again, which then would really put them in a bad position if he can't work. But there again, George is just like a lot of wrestlers who didn't have a lot to show financially after their career was over and no medical insurance or anything like that. And so, you know, he had to have the surgery and now he needs to be able to stay in his place long enough. This money that we raise here will be able to get the eviction suspended and he'll be able to stay there for, you know, maybe another 10 or 15 days until he can find a little bit more affordable place to live. That's the story on it. Nothing more, nothing less. I appreciate anything you can do. I know there's messages flying around different groups and things like that, and I. I think anything else I'd be able to tell you about it would be confidential and would be breaching trust with George. But there's nothing really that big a deal beyond what I've just told you. You know, he had to have the surgery. There was only so much money. At the end of the month, all that money went to his medical bills instead of going to pay the bills. So then the bills just kept accumulating, rent kept accumulating, and he got really, really deep in a hole and needs help getting out. That's the story. So any help you can get on George Gulas. GoFundMe. Really, really appreciate it. Today on the show, we're going to be talking about. It just so happens we're going to be talking about an organization that helps wrestlers, the Cauliflower Alley Club. And we got some fantastic guests lined up today. Paige Sutherland is going to be up first, and then the James Melby award winner, Dan Murphy is going to be here for a conversation with me. And then to cap the show off, you're not going to want to miss the Ron Hutchinson trainer award winner for 2026, the hustler Rip Rogers is going to be here on the pro wrestling time tunnel today, and we're going to be talking to Rip about his career, about my fandom of ICW and going to a lot of the matches. And our conversation is going to. If you've ever heard Rip before, you know our conversation is going to be all over the road. We'll get to that in just a minute. Kurt Von Hess. Kurt Von Hess was a Canadian professional wrestler who was active primarily from the 1960s through the 1980s so in a large portion of the territory era, he was known as a tough heat drawing ethnic heel. Of course he was portraying a German heel antagonist. Shaved head, jack boots, black gear, horsewhip prop, and of course an exaggerated accent. He was actually a Canadian born in Hamilton, Ontario. And his initial work was done under the name Big Bill Terry, because that is his actual name, William Earl Bill Terry. He was especially successful in tag teams and also he was as there were a lot of German tag teams back then, the Von Stroheims, the Von Brauners, Otto Von Heller and many others. But his most notable partnership was with Carl Von Schatz, who was real name John Anson. And they were the most hated heels in the Detroit big time wrestling NWA territory. In the early 70s he also did some work for the NWF. He was the NWA North American tag Team Champion in Los Angeles. While he was touring New Japan, he worked in Stampede Wrestling, Gulf Coast Championship Wrestling. He held the prestigious NWA Gulf Coast Heavyweight Championship twice. In 1977 he won the. Excuse me, I'm still getting over this respiratory respiratory issue that I got in Waterloo. He was AWA Southern Tag Team champions four times, once with Randy Colley and then with other various partners. He won the IWA World Tag Team titles both in Japan and in North America and much, much more. He worked across North America, Montreal, Gulf Coast, Georgia, Mid South Memphis, the Tennessee territory and much, much more. He was married to Catherine Sophia Terry. She died in 2017. They had four children and his oldest daughter is Paige Von Hess Sutherland. She often uses the Von Hess, of course in wrestling circles and she's a key figure in the wrestling community and especially now because she's just been named the benevolent director of the Cauliflower Alley Club, taking the place of longtime benevolent director Darla Staggs. And she grew up in the wrestling lifestyle, man. The family moved around, lived like carnival nomads. And sometimes I have heard her say in other interviews, they moved around 17 times in 10 years. And so they really had to learn how to work as a family. She was not smartened up as to kayfabe as a child and has described her dad as her best friend and larger than life figure who was feared as Curt Von Hess, but kind and professional as her father, Bill Terry. So with the Cauliflower Alley Club now an organization whose focused on camaraderie, recognition, friendship and support for current and former wrestlers and related personnel, she is now the benevolent director on the advisory board. And in her capacity she's going to help oversee the Cauliflower Alley Club's efforts to assist wrestling community members that face financial, medical or personal hardships. I'm extremely, extremely grateful that she has taken the time to be here and visit with me today. [00:15:14] Speaker A: And. [00:15:14] Speaker D: And I would like to welcome to the show and to the Richard's Ranch, Paige Sutherland. Let's go to that interview right now. We're visiting today with Paige. Is it okay if I call you Paige Von Sunderland? [00:15:32] Speaker C: It's actually Paige Von Hess. Sutherland. [00:15:35] Speaker D: You got to put the Hess in there, too. [00:15:37] Speaker C: Oh, the Hess has to be in there for sure. [00:15:40] Speaker D: Paige Von Hess. Sutherland. Sunderland. Sunderland. [00:15:44] Speaker C: Sutherland. [00:15:44] Speaker D: Sutherland. Okay. I grew up with a kid. He was my best friend as I was growing up and we were playing baseball and his name was Sunderland. [00:15:54] Speaker C: Oh, okay. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Roy. [00:15:55] Speaker C: Roy Nordic, I think. [00:15:57] Speaker D: Good old Southern boy. So his name was Roy Don Sunderland. And because you got to have the Billy Bob's and the Roy Dons and the, you know, all that in the South. But anyway, it's Sutherland, Paige Sutherland. And of course, her father, famous wrestler. We'll talk about him and his exploits and accomplishments. Just a second. Kurt Von Hess and Paige. Just. So thank you for agreeing to spend some time with me today. [00:16:27] Speaker C: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. You know, it's my favorite subject, wrestling. My dad, you know, those are two things that I, I cherish. [00:16:37] Speaker D: That's great. So let's just. Let me just run down a little bit and you, you steer me if I get off track here. But he was a Canadian and he was born in Hamilton, Ontario, and he trained under a fellow named Benny Lima. And he debuted in 1966 as Big Bill Terry in Maple Leaf Wrestling and other territories. In 1970, he took on the Persona of the Notorious Kurt Von Hess, shaved his head, started wearing the German foreign heel Gimmick and Get up and was probably one of the last to use the Nazi kind of Persona in wrestling by 1970. And he carried a horsewhip and, and used the German accent in his interviews and such. But he was, by all accounts what I know about him, and I've done quite a bit of research. He was very well trained, he was very versatile in the ring. Wrestled across North America, held the NWA World Tag Team Championship five times with partner Carl Von Schatz. And he also worked for Stu Hart quite a bit in Stampede Wrestling, held the North American heavyweight title. He also worked in the nwf, held the World Tag Team Championship there. And very close to my heart, he held the AWA Southern Tag Team Championship four times. And he also did programs and teamed Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, and so many more that we really know. He retired in 1989. Is that he wrestled up to 89, is that right? [00:18:23] Speaker C: He sure did, yeah. [00:18:24] Speaker D: Wow. And unfortunately passed away from a heart attack March 13, 1999, at only 56 years old. And wife Kathy passed away in 2017. And you've got three other siblings, right? [00:18:41] Speaker C: I do. I have three sisters. Yes. [00:18:44] Speaker D: What are their names? Paige. [00:18:46] Speaker C: I have a sister, Allison. She's two years younger than. I'm 60, so she's 58, and she's here in Hamilton. And then I have two sisters in Lynchburg, Virginia, Ashley and Cali terry. And they're 30. Oh, sorry. 40 and 35. [00:19:06] Speaker D: Boy, time flies, doesn't it? [00:19:08] Speaker C: Doesn't it? [00:19:09] Speaker D: I have to sit and think of how old my brother is at times, and it's hard for me to believe, you know, when I think, oh, my gosh, he is that. And that makes me this. So. [00:19:18] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [00:19:20] Speaker D: So you. You and your sister Allison, you guys traveled with your dad for about 10 years, and you moved 17 times. [00:19:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker D: So the family could stay together when your dad changed territories. [00:19:35] Speaker C: What are some of you such a family man? Yeah. [00:19:37] Speaker D: Yeah. What are some of your memories about moving around like that? [00:19:43] Speaker C: You know what? I didn't know any different. So I started when I was four years old. We moved to Calgary, and prior to that, my dad had worked in Buffalo for the nwf, and he had two titles there with Don Lewin the Executioner, and also with Eric the Red, her two partners. So the promoter was Pedro Martinez. He pushed him into Stu Hart's territory, and we all. We packed up and moved, and that was our first move. And he became the champion within two, three months. I. I have memory of it, you know, living in these places, you know, from there to Montreal, to Windsor, to Montreal. Like, it was like, mostly in Canada up till I was about seven. And then I moved down to High Point, North Carolina, where my dad joined the iwa, which is. Was ahead of its time with the tv. They did the wrestling. It was just a fantastic organization run by Ron Martinez, Pedro Martinez's son, and Johnny Powers. [00:21:00] Speaker D: Yeah, we were. We just did a show here a couple of weeks ago, about 1976 in the Carolinas. And we're talking about the lawsuit against the Crockets and all of that, because they couldn't get into arenas and buildings and things of that nature. [00:21:17] Speaker C: So, yeah, there was quite a battle between the two promotions at that time. So, you know, my dad only did that summer. He did a little Bit the previous year in 75, but not for long. But he was with Carl Von Stroheim at the time, who was Carl Von Brauner. And by the way, my dad has six titles with the NWA Detroit because he won one with Carl Von Brauner off of Alpha and sick of the wild Samoans. [00:21:43] Speaker D: Now, now see, I. So I grew up with the Von Brauners. Yeah, I became a wrestling fan in 1973 and the Von Brauners were working at the very tail end of their time with Gulas Welch. And then they went over to work for Phil golden who had a promotion in Paducah, Kentucky, which is my hometown, and Saul Weingroff and the Von Braunners were like, they were like the road warriors in that day. I mean they were just big and tough and as a kid of 9 or 10 years old, I just kept thinking, nobody can beat these guys. Like, they're just like a machine and all the Von Braunners were always in very good physical condition and shape and they just made such great heels. I bet, I bet those were great teams with your dad. [00:22:33] Speaker C: You know what he really connected with, you know, Carl and, and you know, Carl Von Schatz was his longtime partner starting in Calgary. That was where it was created. Stuart actually helped John Anson, who was Carl Von Schatz, become my dad's partner. And then they went to work for the Rougeaus in Montreal and they, they were trying to find the next best German tag team. Not saying that the Von Braun or the Von Steigers were, you know, they were so relevant at the time, if not on top. [00:23:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker C: But my dad and Carl really, you know, they were a bit bigger. They were, they were also in very good physical shape and they were, they were mean. [00:23:24] Speaker D: Yeah, well, you know, back in those days we have to keep reminding our younger fans that watch and listen that back in those days the fans were limited to what they could see in their territory era area. And there were a lot of foreign heels for every territory. You would have a Japanese team or you would have a German team and you would have them in almost every territory. But you never knew there were other ones out there because you never got to see the other territories. [00:23:56] Speaker C: No, there wasn't nationwide television, there wasn't the Internet. All of the things that we are lucky to have today to see things. Back then it was word of mouth, wrestling cards, advertised TV spots, you know, if they could, you know, little shots and the TV itself, you know, that's how and us just stayed in that area. Whereas, you know, now it's Nationwide. So a lot of the. The tag teams could do that and then they'd have expiry time where it's getting kind of old. [00:24:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:34] Speaker C: And we would move to another territory. [00:24:36] Speaker D: You know, I. One thing I want to ask you. I did a show on Stampede Wrestling last year for 1975, and I had Larry Lane on who worked there that year. And we always hear about the miles involved and the long trips that were in mid south in Louisiana and Oklahoma. And we hear about it in the Amarillo Territory. We don't really hear about it that much in Stampede, but my goodness was. There are a lot of miles in between towns in that territory. Canada is a big place. [00:25:11] Speaker C: We are very vast. Alberta is a very vast territory. And they were going into Saskatchewan as well. And you know, the travel alone was brutal, especially because we had really brutal winters in Calgary and those. My dad and just. I've talked to Carl about it and I remember my dad talking about it, saying those were the nights where he just could not wait to get home and it just took forever and really treacherous weather. [00:25:44] Speaker D: Yeah. What are your memories of that? Did you take any trips back then when you were living in Stampede in Calgary? [00:25:52] Speaker C: No. You know, my dad was very cautious of us girls being the exposure we had to wrestling. It was very limited. I really didn't see my dad wrestle live for the first time till I was probably seven. And that was supervised. [00:26:10] Speaker D: You know, I could see where he would be concerned. Being a heel, you know, and having, having you there isn't. [00:26:18] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a lot of dangerous, you know, people who actually thought that that's who he was as a person. It. We weren't, you know, with the kayfabe area era, you know, I didn't even know about it. I, I knew something was up, but it, it's, you know, you know, something's not right. When I'm in the grocery store with my dad and my dad has on like a straw hat and disguise himself to get some groceries and he would take us girls with him everywhere just to get that quality time. Because he was on the road so much from our home base, wherever we were. And he just was so protective over us. So that first match I went to with, I say supervised, he had somebody watching my mom and my sister and I in the audience, you know, say, at, you know, the New Orleans Superdome. Like, he was so, like. And then he would be watching because he was on maybe the second or last match and, you know, just making sure. And then we would have to get out before he was done. [00:27:28] Speaker D: And I just. You know, for all of you Louisiana. People who are listening today, you people are crazy. I mean, you're crazy over your wrestling, you know, and. [00:27:38] Speaker C: Oh, I can remember those fans. Yeah, they really are. So they were really, really passionate about wrestling and their local hero. And my dad's job was to come in and try to make it look like he's destroying their local hero and making them angry. [00:27:55] Speaker D: Yeah, he's the latest backlash. He's the latest dragon that the hero has to slay. [00:28:02] Speaker C: Exactly. And he would come in hard. He would really come in hard and aggressive and. But when you wrestled him, he was. You can add. I've talked to so many wrestlers over the years, and they all say the same thing. When they wrestled my dad, he was so gentle, but made it look so rough. [00:28:21] Speaker D: Yeah, well, that's the art. Wrestling. [00:28:24] Speaker C: Art. [00:28:24] Speaker D: Wrestling is a performance art. And it is. You know, it's. Some people are very, very good at it. [00:28:31] Speaker C: And he was exceptionally good at it and didn't get the push that I believe he deserved. Yeah, you know, it was wrong timing. You know, there was a lot of things. If anything, the Sheik really gave him that big push for all those championships, you know, and Pedro and Stu and Johnny Ruger or Jacques Brigeau, you know, like, they all loved him. [00:28:55] Speaker D: I am. I have. I. I'm the. I'm the historian that's on Briscoe and Bradshaw probably the most. [00:29:03] Speaker C: And yes, yes, I heard that from Darla. [00:29:07] Speaker D: Yeah. And we did a whole series on the Welch family recently, and I had an opportunity to have George Goulis on. And one of the things I wanted to talk to him about was being the promoter son. And he just talked about how, you know, you can imagine what it was like going to school where, you know, kids knew that his dad was the promoter and all that. Did that ever happen to you? Did you have that, or did kids have no idea who your dad was? [00:29:39] Speaker C: You know what? We get to the territory, I'd have to get to where I needed to go to school. I would never say who I was. And then all of a sudden, you know, again, the grocery store or the bank or the gas station, we would be with him, and they'd see me with him. And then they put it all together. And then I got back to school, and I would go two ways. One way would go where, oh, your dad's a bum, and, you know, you can't wrestle and this and that. And other people were enamored that I was his daughter. And you know, asking me questions, a lot of questions, like, what's he like at home? And, you know, and. [00:30:23] Speaker D: Well, I just want to ask that. Did you ever. Did you ever see Bill Terry interact with people? [00:30:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:30:31] Speaker D: Like just being Bill Terry. I mean, what was that like? [00:30:35] Speaker C: He was Bill Terry at home always. So when he walked. I always say this. When he walked into the arena, he put. He put Bill Terry aside and became Kurt Von Hess. That was his job. And when he walked out of the arena and got in his car, he was back to Bill Terry. [00:30:49] Speaker D: Now, I believe with all my heart, the best can do that. [00:30:54] Speaker C: It's an art right there. How do you go from being this angry, nasty, vile person to my dad, Bill Terry, who was the most loving, kindest, quiet, you know, didn't say a lot, but was just a gentle, loving father and husband, and he could separate those two, and a lot of people become their gimmick. He refused. Once he was out of there, he wanted that normalcy at home, you know, where we'd sit and watch the Three Stooges and giggle and, you know, he probably got some of his angles from them. I don't know. [00:31:33] Speaker D: Yeah. So there had to be. There had to be some people who knew that your dad played this role and was this wrestler. And so when they met Bill Terry, what surprised him the most? [00:31:47] Speaker C: But he was so nice and so caring and so empathetic and. And not how he portrayed himself. You know, our neighbors, say, in our. Wherever we were living, you know, you get to know your neighbors. It's a short period of time we were there. But, you know, say, in Nashville, you know, we. We would become friends with the neighbors next door, and then. I can't believe he's the same guy in the ring. Like, what's that? [00:32:15] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:15] Speaker C: And people didn't understand that's. That's something he was very talented at, is separating those two characters. [00:32:24] Speaker D: And, you know, that happens. That happens to everybody. In entertainment, it doesn't matter if you're a newscaster or a radio personality or a movie actor or you're in a television series or you're a wrestler. When people meet the real person, they're usually surprised because they have so bought into the person they've seen perform. [00:32:49] Speaker C: And on the other end, what happened was, a few times I've had fans contact me over the years and tell me, oh, my gosh, the first time I saw your dad was at a gas station. And that is a typical. I saw Kurt Bonhass at the gas station. He was pumping his Own gas, of course. And, you know, he'd have George Cannon in the passenger seat, who was his manager at the time. And, you know, he would. My dad would go in and pay for the gas and all these little kids are following him in and he wouldn't do the normal gimmick that he had and, you know, the growling and the yelling and the, you know, he just. He just turned around and, you know, he wouldn't give autographs. That was a no. [00:33:32] Speaker D: No. Heels didn't do that those days. [00:33:34] Speaker C: So he's really kayfabe and quite. And protected the business like nobody else. But he wouldn't be crass or mean as he was doing a promo or in the ring. If he saw the kids, he didn't want to scare them, but scare them enough that they're like, oh, my God. You know, you give them something to think about and. But he would sometimes look at some. A kid and you go, you are you really a mean guy? And my dad would just wink. [00:34:05] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's amazing. A lot of times, if I'm going to have somebody on like this and you and I spoke. I've had a couple of weeks to get ready to talk with you because we talked a couple weeks ago. And so I went to find a couple of your interviews, because I like to do that, to make sure I don't ask something that maybe you've been asked a million times, but I do have one that I've heard you answer before, and that is you formed relationships. And I think every person I've ever known in the wrestling business that had families was like this. You formed relationship with the other families that were in the business. Right. Who were some of those people? [00:34:50] Speaker C: Number one would be Alpha and Sikh of the Wild Samoans. I met them when I moved to High Point, North Carolina for Iwa, and they were there. And that's the first time I met them. And from that point on, we moved to four different territories together. Lived in the same houses, same area. We stuck together because we didn't have. And the wives would connect. And my dad was very good friends with both Offa and Sika. That is wrestling. Because there weren't many families. It was frowned upon to bring your family to the territory. I know a lot of promoters didn't like that because it caused a lot of problems. My mom was a very staunch. She really didn't like. I hate to say this, she wasn't a fan of the wrestling at all. So she was overprotective because she saw what it did to my dad, you know, physically and. And, you know, sometimes mentally, you know, it was tough, so. [00:35:57] Speaker D: Well, it's not like a traditional life. [00:36:00] Speaker C: It was not. See, I didn't know any different, so. But I could see the same. [00:36:05] Speaker D: I could see where a spouse, either male or female, wouldn't be attracted to it because it's not your traditional kind of life. It's very unusual. And you have to make sacrifices that a lot of families don't have to make in order to make a living. And so I could see. I could see where your mom's coming from for sure. [00:36:27] Speaker C: She had a lot of resentment towards wrestling. Wrestling took my dad away from her and us, you know, and that's how. But, you know, we needed the money, and that was what he was most talented at. You know, he tried other jobs and he just always went back to wrestling. It was in his heart, you know, he loved it. From a kid. [00:36:46] Speaker D: Do you know a story about how your mom. Dad met? [00:36:49] Speaker C: Yes. So my mom and dad met in 1964 in Scotland. My mom was from Ayr, Scotland, which is the hometown of Robert Burns, the poet. [00:37:02] Speaker D: Yeah. Nice. [00:37:03] Speaker C: And so my dad knew my mom's family because he dated my mom's older sister first. [00:37:10] Speaker D: Oh, my goodness, that sounds like trouble. [00:37:13] Speaker C: It was, yes. So my Aunt Mary and my dad dated for a year. She was here in Hamilton working at a bank, and she was an airline stewardess as well. And they split. And my dad was Irish, his family directly from Ireland. So he would be sent back. Then they used to send the teenage children, the young children to go and get things from Ireland. And he decided after he split up with my mom's sister that he would go visit my grandmother. And my mom happened to be there. And that's my. My grandmother said, take him out for a coffee or something and to be a good host. And they fell in love. And they were married 19 6, by 1965, in the next year. [00:38:13] Speaker D: So neat. [00:38:14] Speaker C: And she was a beauty queen. She was a Miss Bonnie Laser bear in 1964. [00:38:20] Speaker D: Your mother? [00:38:21] Speaker C: My mother. She was stunningly beautiful. Yes. So I have these movie star parents, you know, that I absolutely adored. And they. He brought her here and they got married. And he'd already been training for wrestling by that point with Benny Lima. And actually, Dewey Robertson is who got my dad into wrestling. [00:38:43] Speaker D: So my dad, fans may know him later as the Missing Link. [00:38:47] Speaker C: The Missing Link, yes. And he's also a fellow Hamiltonian, God rest his soul, who became very. My dad and him had a lifelong friendship. And Dewey got my dad involved with Benny Lima, and then that's when it took off. And it's not something my mom expected coming here, you know, so there's a resentment that started quite early, you know, and they had. [00:39:14] Speaker D: The thing that's in my mind right now is what happened to Aunt Mary? [00:39:17] Speaker C: Oh, Aunt Mary went on to marry a doctor, and she lived in Boston and she became a doctor herself. [00:39:23] Speaker D: So she. [00:39:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:25] Speaker D: What kind of doctor? [00:39:26] Speaker C: She was psychologist. Oh, yeah, she just recently passed. [00:39:29] Speaker D: That would have been an interesting relationship, if that, you know, psychologist, married to a wrestler. That would have been exactly, eh, Ring [00:39:37] Speaker C: psychology and a psychologist. [00:39:39] Speaker D: Yeah. Yes, sure. So are there any, like, feuds or rivalries or matches that your dad had that stick out to you now that you look back on and you remember much about or that your dad talked about much? [00:39:55] Speaker C: Whenever he would win a belt, you know, it was a big deal. You know, he wasn't one to go out with the boys after and have beer and things like that. He'd bring the belt home and bring a pizza home and just be happy about that, you know. It's an accomplishment for him. [00:40:11] Speaker D: Sure. And it would have been. And in those days, it would have been difficult for heels to go out publicly. [00:40:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. You can't go sit in a bar, you're gonna get challenged, you know, and you. [00:40:23] Speaker D: And you can't. And you can't lose, you know, because that hurts the business. Right. So he was probably. He was probably wise just to avoid the whole thing. [00:40:33] Speaker C: Oh, he loved a cold beer after the matches, you know, but in the dressing room, you know, and then he'd be on his way and, you know, he would come home and he was more of a homebody. He wasn't a partier or going after some of the women that used to come around the matches and, you know, things like that. He didn't feed into that lifestyle that a lot of guys did, you know, and he was quite proud of that and that. I think that's why he was so successful. He was so driven to succeed. He did the best he could, and he really worked hard at it. But I would say the match that. The rivalry, he really. Well, he was the Gulf coast champion in 1977 in Pensacola. [00:41:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:41:19] Speaker C: And he had a really. So the champion was Mr. Wrestling, I think, probably. [00:41:30] Speaker D: Did you get to know the Fields family? [00:41:34] Speaker C: No. Well, Ricky Fields and those? No, I know him later. I met him later. See, during the time, it was hard for me to know these people because I was kept away. [00:41:45] Speaker D: It was getting Close to the time they were going to be selling the territory too in 77 because they were going to sell it to Ron Fuller. But yeah, I was just curious. Just I didn't know how that worked, you know, like, did you. How many much contact did you have with the other families and that kind of stuff. You know, I've heard other wrestlers say back in the early days where they all traveled like gypsies, like they all traveled in their cars and pulled behind trailers and found a camp and they found campgrounds where they all just knew each other and that kind of stuff, you know. [00:42:24] Speaker C: And that's the thing. We would meet up with an Hawaii families and you know, we would camp together, we would be in cabins. You know, we were in Washington state and working and my dad was working for Gene Kinisky and be British Columbia, you know, that we just find like off season cottages or cheap motels with kitchenettes. You know, that's the way we led a very gypsy, nomadic life that, you know, that U haul, like every time I see a U haul, it brings me back because I can remember I come home to the motel and there's a U haul in the back of my dad's car. And I'm like, I guess we're moving like that. And that was common amongst families. You can ask the Anua children and they all said the same thing like, oh God, here we go, we're moving again. You know, and it happened quite quick. My dad could get a phone call and then he would finish the angle and be in the next territory within a week. [00:43:23] Speaker D: That's amazing. I'm certainly not going to be the first, but I am just pleased to congratulate you on your new role. [00:43:34] Speaker C: Thank you so much. [00:43:35] Speaker D: You're going to be the benevolent director for the Cauliflower Alley Club. And you're going to be the successor of someone that I really hold dear in Darla Staggs, who was on my, on my show, well, a couple months ago. And then I just saw her in St. Louis a couple of weeks ago right at Herb's event. And man, she, she is going to be stepping down and you're going to be stepping up. So congratulations. [00:44:08] Speaker C: Thank you so much. You know what? This role that I've taken on as a benevolent director for Cauliflower Alley is a complete absolute honor that they even considered me. I have so much experience in the wrestling business. I, I've, you know, it. There's so many parts that I could go on for hours and hours and tell you stories about different Territories and different men that were there, you know, and come for dinner and things like that. My mom. [00:44:40] Speaker A: And I'm going to do that, and [00:44:41] Speaker D: I'm going to take you up on that, too, because I want to hear every one of them. So I'm gonna corner you sometime at one of these conventions. You. You just tell me every story, you know, so. [00:44:52] Speaker C: I certainly will. Yeah. There's so many wonderful stories, and I think that's what I can bring to the table is I know how a wrestler's mind operates. I know how they. I know how my dad thought and, you know, how they used to operate back then. And, you know, just the. The. The struggle and the hardship that a lot of these men and women went through that I witnessed, you know, people leaving the business because of something or, you know, injuries and, you know, losses and, you know, financial burdens. I'm so happy to be able to take this position and be able to help people who really need the help. You know, if they can't pay their rent and they've been in the hospital or, you know, there's many scenarios that could happen. And, you know, I'm just so delighted. I've already helped a couple of gentlemen in the business get back on their feet a little bit, and I get to their story, and then I can relate to that story, and then I put it before the board, and then the board takes a look at it, and it's just such a wonderful, wonderful. It's just a great feeling to help people like that. When I saw all this as a child, you know, and into my teens, of guys just really struggling, I was. [00:46:24] Speaker D: I was sitting, having dinner at this St. Louis event at Herb Simmons event with James Beard and JBL and I think Barry Darzo, and we're just talking. [00:46:36] Speaker C: I know James and I know jbl, and we're just. [00:46:39] Speaker D: We're just sitting there talking. And I said, you know what the second question every wrestler asks each other when they come up to one another? The first question is, how you doing? I said, you know what the second question always is, Because I'm just watching, right? And I've seen probably 50 interactions that day between wrestlers. The second question always is, how's your body? [00:47:02] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:47:03] Speaker D: Which relates directly to what you're talking about. [00:47:07] Speaker C: Yes. And, you know, there's this. You know, I know from experience with my own father that, you know, he. His body was bruised and battered and. And for a big guy, I don't know how he made it all those matches. There's close to 2700 matches he did. [00:47:29] Speaker D: And it typically doesn't. And it typically doesn't get better with time, Paige. [00:47:34] Speaker C: No, and the thing is with my dad is it wasn't so much physical injury. It was. It was. He had kidney failure and had to be on dialysis. 1990. His kidneys failed. He really took that hard because. [00:47:53] Speaker D: Was that a direct result of wrestling or something else? [00:47:56] Speaker C: I think it was a direct, to be quite honest, directly from wrestling, your [00:48:02] Speaker D: back takes a lot of, you know, abuse. I mean, a lot of backdrops and out of the ring and ring posts and those turn. Those turnbuckles when you slam into them. I mean, it's like. I've heard it described as, like, a car accident, you know. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's the thing. Your body's constantly traumatized. I mean, those boards were like. Those were like plyboard. That's not, like, all cushiony, you know, he would help set up the rink so he could find his soft spot. [00:48:30] Speaker D: Well, and fans today may not understand, but back then, they wrestled almost every night except Sunday, [00:48:40] Speaker C: sometimes twice on Sunday, if it was a holiday or whatever. [00:48:43] Speaker D: And depending on the state, mostly in the south, they didn't wrestle on Sunday because of the laws, but in the northern areas and western part of the United States, they did. I know, like, in Amarillo, they had two shows on Sunday. [00:49:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Whereas in Atlanta. No, he was home on Sundays. [00:49:05] Speaker D: Well, you know, I can just hear. I can just hear the empathy and compassion in your voice when you talk about this role and the purpose of it and the mission of it and the mission of the Cauliflower Hourly Club all together. I can just. I can just hear in your voice, you are the right person for this. [00:49:24] Speaker C: Oh, thank you so much. And I am filling big shoes from Darla. She has gone to be the treasure. And, you know, we work together, and I love working with her. I have learned so much more about cauliflower. I've been involved with cauliflower for a few. Cauliflower Alley Club for a few years. So I've really gotten to know all the members, the staff, the volunteers, you know, and I just love the organization and what their mission is. And that is empathy. [00:49:56] Speaker D: Well, I was going to ask you, like, what has surprised you the most about the ring of friendship, like, atmosphere? [00:50:04] Speaker C: It's just so giving and loving and empathetic, and they really take the time to talk to these guys. You know, there can be unsavory characters in wrestling, as you know, there can be lovely people. It doesn't matter. That's. [00:50:19] Speaker D: That's in any industry though. I mean it isn't in. [00:50:21] Speaker C: There's always going to be that and you know, it's such a non judgmental giving of help and, and for somebody struggling and you know, I, I am so delighted to actually be able to keep that going. And that's the purpose of the Cauliflower Alley Club. Make sure that wrestlers who don't have benefits, who don't have insurance, who don't have a retirement plan, you don't get retirement, you don't get your, your, your benefits from, from retiring, you get, you get put out to pasture. [00:51:00] Speaker D: If you don't put it aside, it's not there. [00:51:03] Speaker C: So you have to be smart with your money when you're working. And a lot of people weren't, you know, they never saw the end. They just saw the moment. They lived in the moment. And I cannot blame them for that because as in a wrestler's mind, they think it's never going to end. [00:51:19] Speaker D: Of course that, that I promise you. I've been around so many people in entertainment that there'll be another hit album, you know, or there, there will be, there'll be another hit movie or I'll get another comeback. I'll be in another television show or something and sometimes there isn't one. No, no, sometimes there isn't. Sometimes there isn't another territory, you know. [00:51:42] Speaker C: There isn't, you know, and that's what, you know, my dad was pretty much done 84, 85. He did some touring and different things, but as soon as that territory takeover was done, he was done. [00:51:55] Speaker D: Yeah, the territory era was disintegrating and [00:51:59] Speaker C: it was destroyed and a lot of guys quit over that. And my dad did his best. Until 89, he was off and on wrestling after that, you know, he went to Japan, he went to South Africa, he went to Puerto Rico. He was trying other ways. It just was too much, which, and he was getting older, which. [00:52:16] Speaker D: Another question I really wanted to get to. We just kind of gotten there naturally. But what would your dad think about wrestling today? [00:52:25] Speaker C: In my honest opinion, he would think that is, it is not what he left for them. He always took pride in passing the torch, bringing the green guys in and smartening them up, making sure that they carried on that tradition of brotherhood that my dad knew. Now it's more nationwide, it's more like you don't see a good old promo anymore. You don't see wrestling moves that my dad did. You see them as finishers. And I'm like, right, doesn't make sense to Me and, you know, it's just something that my dad took so much pride in, along with the other men and women of that era. They were carrying a torch from the 50s and 60s. [00:53:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:53:21] Speaker C: They were taught that way. [00:53:23] Speaker D: Well, I think. I think what's missed by a lot of people, mainly if you weren't there and you didn't experience the territories, I think one of the things was that now with a national audience, everything's much more homogenized and the same. Whereas in those days, when you went to a particular territory, you learned the people and you learned what was going on there, and you crafted your presentation to those particular people, and the whole wrestling product was for those particular people. And I think it caused guys to reach down and be more creative, you know, and know that they had to do something different for this particular audience to get over where now. [00:54:12] Speaker C: And that's the whole thing, getting over. [00:54:14] Speaker D: Yeah. And it's not easy to do. [00:54:17] Speaker C: It's a very, very difficult part of a wrestler's career is getting over in a new territory, you know, and for some reason, my dad would just come in really hot and he would just do something that would enrage them. And then he's like, I got him. [00:54:36] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker C: That's how he would feel then once, because he could read the audience, he would walk out and do his normal yelling and, you know, the accent and that sort of thing. And he knew right away, if that's not working, I have a. He always had a backup. [00:54:52] Speaker D: And that wasn't easy to do, because when he went to the German gimmick in 1970, that's 25 years after the war was over. [00:55:00] Speaker C: That's right. [00:55:01] Speaker D: And so it wasn't. It wasn't like you could just go out there and be a German and that be the end of it. People were going to. [00:55:08] Speaker C: It was frowned upon. Yes. Because of. Of that time, there was a lot of people in that audience who were in that war. [00:55:17] Speaker D: Yeah, right. And by then. And by then, we were hating the Russians. So, you know, that was a transition that was going on as well. So it's to your dad's credit that he was able to get over so well that far after the war. [00:55:30] Speaker C: In my opinion, like up until the 80s, like, you know, he carried that character. He did. You know, he never turned to fate. He never turned to baby face, ever. You know, I was always a heel. And then he would go under a mask, like in Nashville for Jerry Jarrett, you know, he was assassin number two. And with Randy Cauley, who has met. [00:55:53] Speaker D: I remember that. Because that's my territory. I remember that. [00:55:57] Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, he decided to give up a little bit of the German and try that for a year. And he was with Nick. With Nick Gulas, and he was with Jerry Jarrett and, you know, with Randy. And they were masked, then they were unmasked, and then that was the end of it. Right. That's usually when they leave the territory. [00:56:19] Speaker D: A lot of big guys did that. They. They took a break from their character and worked under a hood. Guy Mitchell did, and your dad did several. Randy Collie was a thousand different masked guys. [00:56:32] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And such a nice guy. Oh, my. I got to know Randy. He was lovely. [00:56:37] Speaker D: Yeah. Very nice fella. [00:56:38] Speaker C: Because my dad had a partner. They were tight, and they. And he liked it like that. That way There's. And he was teaching, you know, he. He's constantly passing on his knowledge, you know, like, Randy was younger than him, and Randy already had experience, but my dad would say, hey, don't do that. Do this, you know, And I would hear them discussing it in the living room, and I'd be like, I'm not supposed to hear this, but I would hear it anyway. And that's what he usually say. Okay, kids outside. [00:57:06] Speaker D: Yeah. So when you were a kid, did you ever discover your dad's gimmicks or anything like that in the house? Or did he really hide that? [00:57:15] Speaker C: He. Yeah, he. See, he never. [00:57:17] Speaker D: You're like, oh, wow, look at. Here's a German helmet. [00:57:19] Speaker C: You know, See, he never wore a German helmet. That was something Waldo Von Erich would do. [00:57:25] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:57:25] Speaker C: And that was a good friend of his as well. He was more like. [00:57:30] Speaker D: But he carried a cane, didn't he? Crop. [00:57:34] Speaker C: A crop. Yeah, he always had a crop, and he always had the. The. [00:57:38] Speaker B: The. [00:57:39] Speaker C: The belt. [00:57:39] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:41] Speaker C: But he would in. In 1970. Keep in mind, this was just the time. I do have a picture, and I'll never post it, of him with a Nazi symbol on his arm. And that was Waldo Von Erich's idea, who was. He was more into. He wore full uniform. [00:57:59] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:58:00] Speaker C: My dad realized that it. It was crossing the line. And my mother got very angry because she was a survivor of World War II, and she's like. Like, as a child, and she's like, what are you doing? You know? Well, he had to drive back. [00:58:15] Speaker D: This is just another thing to add to her animosity, you know, I mean, because. [00:58:19] Speaker C: Right. [00:58:20] Speaker D: Golly. Holocaust survivors. Wow. I mean, I know. [00:58:24] Speaker C: And, you know, I didn't have that knowledge at the time. This was A bad thing. You know, today's day, like when they have the German fellow on wwe, there's nothing tying him to his heritage whatsoever. [00:58:41] Speaker D: Right. [00:58:42] Speaker C: And I think that's what my dad was just trying to be like, just scary, you know, without that extra signage on him, which is offensive. [00:58:52] Speaker D: Yeah, well, there just wasn't the education about it back then either. I mean, they didn't really tell. When you were in school, you learned about history, but they didn't really tell you about the. The 6 million people that died and all of that, you know, but. [00:59:08] Speaker C: And that's where we would come from, an era, you know, where it, you know, the late 60s, early 70s, everyone was, I found, very tight lipped about everything. People didn't talk like they do today. [00:59:21] Speaker D: No. [00:59:22] Speaker C: Back then, like my grandmother would say, shush. You know, we don't talk about that. My dad was the same, you know, he's like, no, no. [00:59:29] Speaker D: Oh my gosh, Paige, you know how many times I sat at the dinner table at my grandmother's house and I'd be asking questions like I'm asking you now, and she's like, we don't talk about that. I mean, it's just the way things were. [00:59:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker C: It just, just avoidance, you know, they didn't want to talk about it. It was not a subject to be discussed, especially with a child and her grandmother or her dad. You know, my dad really was quite strict on what I asked him. [00:59:55] Speaker D: So is there anything in particular coming up with CAC that you're really excited about? [01:00:00] Speaker C: I certainly am. So this year is our 60th anniversary. 60 years since the organization began in California. And this year is the 60th celebration. It's the longest standing organization for wrestling and boxing and actors is what it started out as. And it's more towards the wrestling now. And so this year we have a big celebration with some wonderful guests coming. I know that a few have been announced already, like Leilani Kai. [01:00:37] Speaker D: Oh, I just, I just sent a tweet out about this last night and [01:00:41] Speaker C: I am happy for her. [01:00:43] Speaker D: There is nobody more deserving who contributes to this day to the wrestling business. I mean, she. Her social media accounts are amazing and the memories and the photos, she must have taken a camera with her everywhere she went because her photo [01:01:03] Speaker C: at documenting her history. [01:01:06] Speaker D: Yes. [01:01:07] Speaker C: And you know, a lot of people, my dad unfortunately did not have that talent. So I. A lot of missing parts on our past. But with Leilani, she is one of the pioneers of women's wrestling. I was listening to so hard back there. [01:01:21] Speaker D: I Was listening to an interview with a country music star yesterday or the day before, and someone asked him, they said, what would you do over. About your career? He goes, I would hire somebody to follow me around and take pictures of everything, like, everything that happened. He goes, so many things in my career I can sort of remember or somebody will bring up, hey, remember that time we did this or did that? And I can kind of remember it, but I wish I had photos. I wish I had. [01:01:51] Speaker C: But imagine a wrestler's memory and how many times they wrestled the same guy every night. And then it switches. They can't remember the year time. A wrestler's brain is completely different from the average. You know, the concussions, the. You know, the. My dad had memory loss at 50, you know, just so many concussions. And one time he had his eyeball completely out. Johnny Rougeau took a chair shot on him. It just went in the wrong angle, and he ended up almost losing his eye. But he. You know, they had doctors in the back at that time, and, well, they still double. Not for independent, but, you know, WWE have. [01:02:30] Speaker D: That's. [01:02:30] Speaker B: That's doctors. [01:02:31] Speaker D: That's why I cannot. I cannot tolerate when someone uses the F word with wrestling. Yeah, the fake word. I can't. [01:02:40] Speaker C: Oh, I don't. Never say that to me. Ever. [01:02:42] Speaker D: Oh, my God. [01:02:43] Speaker A: I'll. [01:02:44] Speaker C: I'll keep you right there and I'll. I'll make you change your mind. [01:02:47] Speaker D: Because, I mean, when you saw the trauma that your dad suffered from being in the business, which he. He enjoyed doing it, and he was his chosen profession and he wanted to do it, but he certainly sacrificed and paid the price for it. And there. And there's nothing f. About that. It's all real. It's all real. [01:03:09] Speaker C: You know, Ed. He used to have a. He would come home off the road and what I would. He would lay on the ground and I used to have to walk on his back just to get his back. Like. Like a. Like a chiropractor. Yeah, like. And get all the cracks out for him because he was so stiffened up, you know, and he was very fluid when he wrestled. It's the. After, you know, and then he would have to do a workout the next day because he had to keep his body in shape. And that was one thing he really, really prided himself on, is the constant working out and. And keeping in shape because his body was his business. That's all he had. [01:03:48] Speaker D: Is there anything about the CAC or your dad that I haven't asked you or we haven't talked about that you want to talk about or that you. [01:03:55] Speaker C: About my dad? [01:03:56] Speaker D: Well, either one. Your dad or the cac? Either one. If I haven't asked you something, is there anything in particular you want to say or get across or. [01:04:06] Speaker C: First of all, if anyone can just please look at the Kurt Von Hess Facebook page, his videos on YouTube. I run the Facebook page and Instagram. [01:04:19] Speaker D: I just. I just accepted your membership into my group. And I certainly will do some cross stuff. I will go and share some of that in my group as well. And I have some really serious historians in there that will probably just eat it up and love it, so. [01:04:36] Speaker C: Oh, tell me. I love a wrestling historian, and I'm almost becoming one myself. [01:04:42] Speaker D: It sounds like it sounds. [01:04:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, with that, you know, and then I can tie that into the CAC and, you know, I'll be representing this year at the annual success 60th reunion. And, you know, we go to Las Vegas to the Plaza Hotel, and we have pool parties, we have wrestling matches. We have. Last year there was a roast on Mick Foley. And, you know, we had guest panels on there, like Jake the Snake and a few other famous. And Jimmy Hart's always there, too. God bless him. He is one of our hosts, along with Joe Dombrowski. And we just have a really good time. [01:05:24] Speaker D: If I had Jimmy Hart's energy, if I just had that. [01:05:28] Speaker C: I mean, if I could have one, just a little bit of it, I would be a happy person. He's just so happy and so kind, and, you know, he's, you know, for being in the wrestling business as long as he has and the music business, too. He was one of the members of the gentries. I don't know if you know that. [01:05:49] Speaker D: Oh, I do. [01:05:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's just. He's just a fascinating person. And to top it off, he was my dad's manager along with King Kong Bundy in Memphis. [01:05:59] Speaker D: I remember Jimmy Hart's first day on television. He was just following. No, actually, he just followed Jerry Lawler around because they went to high school together. And, yes, Lawler got him in the business. And Jerry would come out and do an interview and Jimmy would just be behind him. And wherever Jerry went, Jimmy went. And then after a while, he started getting a little bit more bold and a little bit more bold. And then, of course, all of a [01:06:28] Speaker C: sudden, he had a megaphone in his hand. [01:06:29] Speaker D: Then, of course, then Jerry Lawler turned Baby Face. And then we had, like, five years of probably one of the best feuds of all time. [01:06:38] Speaker C: Amazing. [01:06:40] Speaker D: Memphis Jimmy Hart bringing In the Dragon for Jerry Lawler to slay every month or two. [01:06:46] Speaker C: Right. And now he takes his position in the CAC of being our host. Takes it quite seriously. He is so wonderful. When I'm out there, I go out and I sell raffle tickets in the audience on those two evenings that we have and of dinners and people and honorees and fans. And he is up there and he says, paige. He says, go see Paige. You know, and he just is so enthusiastic. After all he's been through and his age, he just doesn't age. [01:07:21] Speaker D: Yeah, he's just. I was in JBL's booth in St. Louis and Jimmy Hart was in the booth next to us and just, I mean, nobody had to wait to get a picture made. I mean, he was. He was getting them organized and having the pictures made and telling people where to stand and what to do and. And I'm like, oh, he knows he's going to be more tired than I am tonight, you know, because he's just going like a Energizer Bunny, you know what I mean? [01:07:49] Speaker C: I don't know where he gets his energy, but he just brings such life to the. To the dinners and the CAC reunion itself. You know, having him there, he is like our. An ambassador of a very long period of time, of wrestling. [01:08:04] Speaker D: Well, before I let you go, well, I got some questions I want to ask you that do some rapid fire here, just some things about you. So it doesn't have to be anything we've talked about today or anything like that, but what's the best memory that you have of your dad or the wrestling business or being involved, growing up in it or anything? What's the best memory that comes to mind for you? [01:08:32] Speaker C: Him coming home after is the best way I could say it anywhere he was, if he was. I can remember standing in Seattle airport, he was coming home from Japan, and I just could not wait to see that bald head coming through that door of the. Off the plane. Those are my treasured times, is him coming home and hugging me and just. I missed him so, so much. And, you know, my mother, of course, and my sister did too, but him and I had a relationship that like no other. We're very close. We're very similar in personality, temperament, and, you know, I'm just so proud to be his daughter. [01:09:12] Speaker D: Who's the number one hero in your life? [01:09:17] Speaker C: Myself. [01:09:18] Speaker D: I like that. What's the top. What's the top value you subscribe to? [01:09:24] Speaker C: I'm sorry? [01:09:25] Speaker D: What's the top value you subscribe to? [01:09:28] Speaker C: What do you mean by value the [01:09:30] Speaker D: thing you believe in the most? Like, is it honesty, is it trust, is it friendship? Something like that? What. [01:09:39] Speaker C: What's the top honest and trusting friendships and family? For sure. [01:09:43] Speaker D: Okay. Family. [01:09:44] Speaker C: My family are my everything. You know, I. My dad has brought me up well, that, you know, you take care of your family and you make sure that you are the boss of your family. And that's what I do. [01:09:54] Speaker D: You. Who's the most important person in your life? [01:09:58] Speaker C: I would. In spirit. My dad. [01:10:01] Speaker D: What's your favorite thing in the whole world? [01:10:08] Speaker C: Wrestling. [01:10:10] Speaker D: What's your favorite food? [01:10:13] Speaker C: Pizza. [01:10:14] Speaker D: Now, you just can't. You just can't. I don't know. We're going to see if you got any recency bias here, because I know you just came back from a fantastic trip, but. [01:10:21] Speaker C: But I certainly did. [01:10:23] Speaker D: What's the most beautiful place you've ever been to? [01:10:25] Speaker C: Recently it would be, oh, definitely Alaska, which has left an imprint on me that I have never felt in a long time. Other than that, I would say Banff, Alberta, is one of my favorite places to be. I just love being in the mountains. [01:10:42] Speaker D: If you could describe success in one word, what would that word be? [01:10:47] Speaker C: Success [01:10:51] Speaker D: Driven. How do you want to be remembered? [01:10:56] Speaker C: I want to be remembered as someone who carried her dad's legacy well and with honor and with love. [01:11:11] Speaker D: If you could go back and talk to a very much younger page, what advice would you give her? [01:11:19] Speaker C: I would tell her it's going to be okay. [01:11:21] Speaker D: What's your favorite sound? [01:11:25] Speaker C: Bird singing. [01:11:26] Speaker D: And what do you think the best lesson you learned from your dad was? [01:11:33] Speaker C: I would say with my dad, he would always say to me when I got, don't. Don't let people take over your thoughts and, you know, and make you angry. You know, just relax. Don't. Don't let them win. [01:11:51] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. I've. I've been a professional executive coach for over 20 years, and I constantly tell my clients, don't allow anybody to make you anything. Like. [01:12:04] Speaker C: And that's what he. He really got upset when I used to say, get angry at. You know, my sister and I were fighting. [01:12:10] Speaker D: Yeah, My sister makes me mad. Right. He's like, don't. Don't allow that. Don't. Don't let that. You know, learn to be your own person and not be so driven with other people. [01:12:21] Speaker C: He would really get upset when I would listen to what other people are saying instead of pulling back and keeping my peace, my inner peace. And that is a wrestling technique. [01:12:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:12:35] Speaker C: You have people screaming and yelling at you. And what is he doing? He's going to. [01:12:41] Speaker D: Yeah. You cannot. [01:12:42] Speaker C: He didn't even do that to make them go louder. [01:12:44] Speaker D: Sure. [01:12:45] Speaker C: You know, there's a way that you can handle yourself, and I've learned that through him. [01:12:50] Speaker D: There's no way. You know, and so much of wrestling is manipulation of the crowd, which is commonly referred to as psychology. But you can't affect that psychology if you don't affect yourself first. And if you don't control yourself first before you can control the atmosphere of things around you or whatever, that. That's a great lesson. And. And I won one that I wish more fathers and mothers taught their children. [01:13:22] Speaker C: Yeah, he. He brought ring psychology home, and I didn't even know it. [01:13:26] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. He was just raising. [01:13:28] Speaker C: He was upset that I was upset, and it really would make him upset. And, you know, because he. In a way, he would feel that it's his fault. I feel this way because we're living in Tennessee and I got bullied or, you know, I. Things like that. He'd be like, you just relax. Those people mean nothing. And you just concentrate on you and have grace and have restraint at the same time. [01:13:55] Speaker D: This is a little personal story, but I. I used to work for this family, and the grandfather founded the company, and he would come in every morning. Well, a lot of times he'd come into the office and I'd be outside smoking, and he'd come over to me and he'd say, tony, why do you let a little weed that grows out of the ground control you? I never really thought about smoking that way, but he was right. I was allowing tobacco to. I mean, it told me when to go smoke. You know, it told me when to do those things. And I was just amazed that he put it that way. And it really helped me quit it. You know, I really stopped it. Because if there's one thing I don't like is I don't want anybody controlling me or anything controlling me. I know. [01:14:41] Speaker C: And that's how I live. [01:14:42] Speaker D: I want to be in control. Right, Paige? [01:14:45] Speaker C: It's in control. You can. You can steer where you. And we need to go. [01:14:51] Speaker D: Paige, it's been just wonderful getting to know you better. [01:14:54] Speaker C: And you as well, Tony. [01:14:55] Speaker D: I got so much respect for your dad and for your family and your contribution to the business of professional wrestling. And I'm so thrilled that you have found a way to continue to contribute. [01:15:08] Speaker C: And that is the. You know, if my. I often say if my dad was here, he would not. He would be, like, so [01:15:18] Speaker B: proud. [01:15:19] Speaker C: I know that he would. And he is watching over me. I know that. And something has led me to this. And it's, you know, it's, it's. I don't know if it's fate or the stars aligning, but I couldn't find a better position than accepting this position as a benevolent director and carrying on this legacy of 60 years of the CAC helping people. [01:15:41] Speaker D: Well, I can't wait until I'm somewhere in the same place you are so that we can visit more and I get to hear more stories and you can tell me as many of them as you want. And I will. [01:15:53] Speaker C: I would be happy to. [01:15:54] Speaker D: I will be gratefully listening to that. But thank you for spending some time with me today. Congratulations on your new role. I look forward to watching you develop that role and taking it even farther than what Darla took it. And I know you're going to do that. So that's going to be an exciting time and I'm looking forward to watching. [01:16:15] Speaker C: Thank you so much. It's my absolute pleasure to do this for the business and for the fans and for the historians. You know, I, I just, you know, I respect historians, particularly, you know, they really have helped me over the years discover my dad's career and, and the hardships with it. I knew already, so. But yes, it is my absolute pleasure to be part of that organization and to be the proud daughter of a heel. [01:16:43] Speaker D: Thank you. Thank you for being my guest today. [01:16:47] Speaker C: My absolute pleasure, Tony. Thank you so much. [01:16:52] Speaker D: What a phenomenal individual. Just a nice, wonderful person. Paige Sutherland, everybody. The new benevolent director for the Cauliflower Alley, replacing my longtime friend and longtime friend to the wrestling community, Darla Staggs, who has earned a very much well deserved rest from that position. So we're featuring the Cauliflower Alley Club today. They're having their 60th, I believe, 60th anniversary meeting coming up later in a couple of weeks here in Las Vegas. And just in case there's some of you out there who are not familiar with Cauliflower Alley Club, it started in the mid-60s and they had weekly get togethers at the Baron's Castle Buffet restaurant in Los Angeles, located in the Elks Club building, which was owned by Mike Mazurki. And they still give out a annual award, the Iron Mike Misurki Award. And those meetings that they were having brought together Mizurchi and Al Baffert's wrestling and movie friends, along with a lot of boxing associates of George Parnassus. And at the core of those meetings was the longtime friendship between Mazurki and Art Abrams, who was a printer who worked for the Los Angeles Examiner. Abrams handled early newsletters and banquet programs and printing them in his garage and served as an executive vice president and treasurer from the start all the way up until he passed away. The club is generally dated to 1965, when it formalized as a form fraternal group of wrestlers, boxers, actors and friends focused on camaraderie, which the Ring of Friendship is one of their slogans. The first banquet was an informal event at the Baron's Castle honoring wrestling legend Jim Londos. That's kind of cool, huh? Simple menu of hot dogs, coffee and Cokes. About 100 members came. Mazurki was elected president and boxer Lou Nova vice president, and then subsequent early banquets featured stars from the ring and also stars from Hollywood. They started having weekly Wednesday luncheon meetings into the early 1980s at various Hollywood area spots. And occasionally they would have larger banquets, including one on the RMS Queen Mary ship in Long beach honoring figures like Gene Fulmer and Sugar Ray Robinson. Plans for a CAC museum there fell through because of a change in the ship's ownership. In 1977, the CAC received nonprofit status and the club name plus Mazurki's cauliflower ear were registered as trademarks for the club. Around 1980, the organization reorganized due to legal problems involving the directorship. A new board and revised procedures were installed to preserve its nonprofit focus on friendship and mutual support worldwide. The prior hierarchy under managing director Marshall Wright, spun off into the separate Golden State Boxing and Wrestling Club. Membership temporarily faced questions until the connections were completed. Under the reorganized structure, formal annual banquet reunions began in earnest 1983 and 84 at the Valley Hilton Hotel in Sherman Oaks. 1985 to 1998, longtime home at the Sportsman's Lodge in Studio City, and their membership grew to over 3,000 members worldwide. 1994 on East coast reunions started first in Springfield, Massachusetts, and then Newark, New Jersey. A Florida event occurred in 1996 and then in the late 1990s to 2000s. It shifted heavily to Las Vegas venues like the Riviera Hotel, Plaza Hotel Casino on Fremont Street, Gold Coast Hotel and Casino and others setting attendance records. The 40th reunion was in 2005. That just seems like yesterday and the 45th in 2010. The club continued in Las Vegas through the 2010s. The 2020 reunion was canceled because of that old nasty COVID 19 and it resumed in 2021 at the Gold coast and later returned to the renovated Plaza Hotel. Mike Misurki served as president until 1990. His successors have been Archie Moore, Lou Thess, Red Bastine, Nick Bockwinkle, and since 2020 or 2014, come on, Tony B. Brian Blair, the three Bs who's also served as CEO of the organization and the organization is volunteer run. It's professional wrestling's only 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to supporting people from the industry and again its primary goals are fellowship, recognition of achievements, preservation of history and financial assistance through a benevolent fund. They are having their reunion later on this month and this year the James C. Melby Award Winner the same award I won at the Luth as George Tragos hall of Fame in Waterloo. My counterpart is Dan Murphy and Dan has been a a friend of mine for quite some time. He's an American writing journalist, historian and author based in the Buffalo, western New York area. Grew up in Western New York. He attended Cardinal o' Hara High School. He graduated from Canisius in Buffalo in 1996 with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in Irish Studies. After college he worked as a reporter and editor for local newspapers and his passion for pro wrestling began in his childhood, just like the rest of us during the early WrestleMania era. He has cited Kevin Von Erich as an early favorite and has been a reader of PWI since he was 12 years old. In 1997, while working as a sports reporter near Niagara Falls, he pitched a story to PWI about a planned UFC event and although the event relocated, the contact led to writing samples and a long term relationship with the magazine. Key roles included coordinating the annual PWA PWI 500 rankings of the top wrestlers and overseeing the women's rankings, launched as the female 50 in 2008. He's written a lot of books, including Body Slams and Buffalo Sisterhood of the Squared Circle, Wrestlers, Wrestlers, Ed, Don George and others. And I can't wait to talk about each one of those books with my friend Dan Murphy, the James C. Melby Award winner for this year in 2026. I am happy to welcome to the Richards Ranch my friend and my guest Dan Murphy. Let's go to that interview right now. Our special episode this week for, Excuse me, Cauliflower Alley. I picked up something in Waterloo and I'm still trying to get over it, Dan, so excuse me if I cough every now and then. [01:23:54] Speaker A: It's. It's okay. It's anytime you travel, anytime you're on an airplane or in a meeting like that, it tends to happen. So I get you, man. [01:24:02] Speaker D: I'm so happy to have you here today. Professional wrestling journalist, historian, author, former independent wrestler. We got Dan Murphy here, who's the winner of the 2026 James Melby Award for the Cauliflower Alley. And I couldn't think of anybody more deserving. So let me just kick off by saying congratulations on that. I'm sure you're pretty excited. [01:24:28] Speaker A: Thank you very much. Yeah, I am. It's. It's an absolute honor. It feels, you know, I'm counting the days. I'm like a little kid, you know, looking forward to Christmas. You know, every day we're that much closer to, to finally going to CAC this year. And it's going to be a great time. So I'm very honored that I was selected, man. [01:24:48] Speaker D: I am too. I'm so happy for you. You were one of the first people that came on this show and we talked about the end Ed Don George book and that so many wonderful things have happened since then about all of that. We were talking before we went on the air about the cool statue that is on my bucket list to see and you said there's still more events kind of coming up have been done and are still being done around that. [01:25:14] Speaker A: Yeah, there was a really cool synergy. So I did the Ed Dawn George book and it took me a few years. Covid happened. A lot of things happened and, and it was tough to, to find a lot of the information I needed. So it took a little bit longer than most of the books I've done have. Have taken in the past. But at the same time, a relative of Ed Don George, one of his great nephews, I think, began a project in North Javen, New York, which is where he's from, putting up a memorial. Fred Don George. But it's not just for Ed Dawn. It's also for every year they honor four or five local veterans from that little town. So they just did that a couple weeks ago. They invite me to. Invited me for the past two years since it went up to come and give a little speech on Ed Don, talk about him and his legacy, and then present the awards. And it's, it's very nice. So it's, it's definitely, if you're ever passing through North Java, New York, which, you know, there's only one stoplight, maybe two, so it's a quick pass. But if you ever stop in that area, make it a point. You know, you can come to Western New York, see the Ed Dunn George Memorial, go to Eliot Apollo's and maybe play A round of Destroyer Park Golf. So it's a good wrestling day. [01:26:23] Speaker D: And the other thing that's kind of interesting and cool about this is the 60th anniversary of the Cauliflower Alley. So you're landing on a good even long number there. So that's kind of cool. [01:26:37] Speaker A: It's pretty impressive. I mean, you know, you've got Ric Flair's getting honored and Bret Hart's getting honored. [01:26:42] Speaker D: I saw that. [01:26:44] Speaker A: Several others, Rip Rogers and Jimmy Corderas and the Glamour Girls. So I mean it, it's as big of an honor as it is to get the Melby to be honored along with these people is just surreal. It's fantastic. [01:26:59] Speaker D: Some of the people who have served the Cauliflower Alley faithfully, one of them passed away and then the other one, Darla Staggs, are getting a well deserved rest from that. And then you have some new board members like Paige Sutherland and Herb Simmons coming on. So the future for the Cauliflower Alley Club is really sensational and bright. [01:27:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. I spent a few years on the advisory board for the CAC and I had to step down this year because just life, you know, kids in college and work and because the thing is, cac, even as a volunteer group, it's a lot of work. And those people on the executive board and the advisory board, they put in a ton of time year round in meetings, going over all sorts of decisions and back and forth on how we can make the event better every year. So, yeah, having the new blood on the executive board is a great thing to see and the future looks really good. [01:27:56] Speaker D: You know, speaking of Buffalo, wasn't that your first book that you did, the Body Slams in Buffalo? [01:28:03] Speaker A: My first wrestling book? Yeah. I did a book the year before that on the history of the Erie Canal. Just a real short little book. And it sold very well locally and the, the publisher was, was so happy. Says, hey, do you have another idea, something you can turn around quick? Something on pro wrestling in Buffalo? I popped it out within a year and got it out for like the local sports community, whatever, and it's still selling. It's been out for 20 years. So, yeah, Body Slams in Buffalo. You know, if I were to rewrite it today, I'd add a lot more, but it's a cursory overview of the history of pro wrestling in Western New York. [01:28:43] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I've got all of your books in my library because you're a fantastic writer and they're incredible resources. Scott Teal and I were just having a conversation this week about every wrestling historian should have other historians books. I mean, we should support one another in that and have those in our library. And all of your books are just. I just love them. I've got a little area. I try to not do screens before I go to bed. So television or computer or phone, I try to shut all that down at least an hour before I go to bed. And that's one of the things I like about having a hard copy of a book is I go to this little reading area right off my bedroom and there's a stack of books there. And a couple of your books are in there because I love just picking them up and turning them open to just any random spot. And two of those that are on my stack there that are like, that are the Sisterhood of Squared Circle, which you wrote with Pat Laproud. And just. I love that book because I can just open it up and boom. And I'm really interested and like to support the history of women's wrestling. I try to post photos on my socials and make sure that those people are never forgotten. But I can just open up your Sisterhood of Squared Circle and boom, there's somebody that I'm interested in just reading in a short little kind of biography. So how did you and Pat decide to write that book? [01:30:22] Speaker A: That was actually. The original concept was Pat's. That was Pat Lapred's idea. He had done Mad Dogs, Midgets and Screw Jobs with Bertrand Hibert on the history of wrestling in Montreal and with ECW Press. He and I were at a Shimmer wrestling show outside of Chicago and Shimmer was the independent women's group. And we're talking and he and I had known each other and we're kind of drinking buddies, you know, so we hang out during the show and we're talking, talking, and he says, hey, I've got this idea. What would you think about a history of women's pro wrestling? Like, I don't know, is there enough? Is there enough there? At the time we were talking about this in 2014, maybe, right? And I stepped aside for a minute and I always carry a notebook, especially at that time I was writing for Pro Wrestling Illustrated. So I was taking notes on the show and who to include in the women's 100 and, you know, things like that. And the magazine did. And I made off the top of my head a quick outline of if I were to do a women's wrestling book, is there enough to sustain it? And there was. So I went back to him, I said, I think there's something here. We got. We pitched it to ECW Press, they bid on it right away. And it was just the perfect synergy because it happened right at the time when all these people from Shimmer were moving up to WWE and to TNA and elsewhere. Later, AEW and WWE got all behind the women's wrestling movement. So it came out right at that crest. It's funny because we end the book looking at what does the future of women's wrestling hold? And we wonder, hey, can Women ever headline WrestleMania? And our theory was, yes, if Ronda Rousey were to make the jump. Because Ronda Rousey is the big name and could just put it over the edge. And within two years, that's exactly what happened. So we were right at the crest of that movement. So we caught that. [01:32:15] Speaker D: Man, that's fantastic. [01:32:18] Speaker A: Makes us look like we know what we're talking about. [01:32:20] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it just came to me. It seems like, and this is a faint memory, but I gotta, like, didn't. Speaking of Buffalo, didn't you write a book about drinking in Buffalo or something? [01:32:32] Speaker A: I did, yeah. I did a book on Nickel City Drafts, a drinking history of Buffalo, New York. [01:32:37] Speaker D: Yeah, I thought I remembered that. [01:32:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I was gonna do a book on Buffalo's role during Prohibition because it's a border town and we elected a former brewmaster for two terms whose whole platform during prohibition was, yeah, we're not going to enforce that here. [01:32:53] Speaker D: Which, you know, I used to give my lawyer. He's passed away now, but he's been gone now two years. I moved since I moved back here to Kentucky. I lived in Columbia, Missouri. My attorney and I would meet for Christmas every year. [01:33:09] Speaker A: Year. [01:33:09] Speaker D: And we'd give books to each other and he'd give me a book that he thought was interesting that year, and I'd take one to him and I gave him that drinking book from Buffalo. [01:33:19] Speaker A: Did you really? [01:33:20] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. I just. It just remind. I just came to me all of a sudden. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that he would dig, you know? [01:33:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. [01:33:31] Speaker D: How long were you at Pro Wrestling Illustrated? [01:33:34] Speaker A: 22 years. Started up in 97 and stepped aside in about 2019. [01:33:41] Speaker D: And. And you were really involved with the rankings and the. The annual stuff. [01:33:47] Speaker A: Yeah, the. The PWI 500 is. Is whatever, you know, it's. The magazine's known for it. They still do it today. I was just a stringer, so I still live in Buffalo. The office is outside of Philadelphia, but once or twice a year, definitely for the 500. I would drive down, sit with the writers there, and we'd come up with. We'd start the ranking process and we'd maybe in the course of an afternoon, we'd get the top 50 or 60. And then after that they would say, all right, Dan, finish up the list and then submit it to everybody. And then we'd go through it all. So I really enjoyed that. I mean, it was a lot of work. And it always bothered me when people said, ah, the list is just a work. And I mean, so was wrestling. But there was a lot that went into deciding who went where and why. And I spent a lot of time all year long watching matches, going to shows. Like I said, I have a five subject notebook. I still have the habit of carrying one with me. It's right next to me now. And I would just keep notes on everybody I saw. You know, so I see one match and somebody has a really good spot. I'd make the note, look into this person, find out who they are, find out more about them. Yeah. And I was able to put the spotlight on a lot of rising talented wrestlers over the years that I was involved with the 500. [01:35:09] Speaker D: Yeah, that's interesting. You know, one of the other things that I love about pro wrestling and I'm. I just am involved in the Territory era. And of course in the Territory era, we had a plethora of masked wrestlers. And I. I love the history of mass wrestlers. I love talking about them. And it's not something you see much in today's product. Although one of the biggest programs and angles of this year involved a masked wrestler with the Grande Americano. Yeah. Or you'll see Lucha guys, you know, every now and then. But anyway, Grappler X, was that you? [01:35:50] Speaker A: Grappler X was me, yeah. Yeah. There was a promotion that was just starting in Buffalo. For the longest time, wrestling was under the athletic commission. I mean, it still is, but they. Right around 2000, 2001, they loosened the regulations, so they made it possible for independent wrestling to survive. They finally kind of realized that somebody running an independent show in New York is not competition for wwe, you know, running at Madison Square Garden, you know, so they finally loosened some regulations that have been in place for 30 years or more. Anyway, this group, Empire State Wrestling, they asked me to come out and watch a show and I'm there with the notebook keeping notes for the 500 and got to know the guys pretty well. And then they'd come up to me and ask me booking questions like, hey, what would you Think how would you do this? And. And it kind of became, hey, how about you become the booker and write the storylines? [01:36:43] Speaker D: And. [01:36:43] Speaker A: And I did. And from there I kind of decided I'm never going to ask somebody to take a move that I don't know how to take personally because I don't want to put a kid in danger. Right. So I started training with the guys and I found that it helped, it helped my writing because I was able to. I. If you're going to write about something like wrestling, it's helpful to know how to do it. You know, it's helpful to know what it's like to get blown up in a match. I wore a mask and what it's like to try to breathe in a mask when you're blow up. [01:37:16] Speaker D: How. How is it? [01:37:18] Speaker A: It's. It's hard. [01:37:20] Speaker D: I always thought about that Jody Hamilton and Tom Ernesto as the Assassins worked in the south in the summertime and all that. And I always thought, man, and in the 1960s without a lot of air conditioning in buildings. And I always wondered how that was when you're. [01:37:37] Speaker A: The more experience you have, the less nervous you are. I, I only wrestled about 30 matches and just did the jobs for people. I just filled out the card and did jobs for the most part. [01:37:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:47] Speaker A: And I was always a little bit nervous, so I'm probably not breathing well. I think guys like the Assassins, they've been in so long where wrestling was a such second nature, they could control their breathing. But that was a challenge for me. But the tough thing really is peripheral vision. I had kind of screens so I, I could only see shadows and things. And I remember I was doing a match of the tag match and a big guy got me and my partner both goozled us, got us up for a double choke slam. He's bringing us down. And I noticed that I really got up high and posted and I was up high. My partner only got halfway. So we're coming down at different speeds and I noticed and this is all happening kind of in a split second. He hits the mat and he throws his arms out, you know, to, to bump. And I, I realize in that moment as I'm coming down, I'm going to land on his arm, I'm going to break his arm. Oh, wow. And in the moment again, not, maybe not the best decision, but I turn, you know, and I took everything in the one shoulder and the collarbone. I didn't get hurt, but I thought I broke my collarbone. Oh my gosh. You know, but the thing is that's those are the things that you don't think of as. As a writer per se, until you kind of get in the ring and you begin to realize all of the moving parts and complexities. And because I had the mask, I was kind of aware he was aware he was there, but the peripheral vision wasn't great. So it's. It helped my writing. I. I love it. [01:39:16] Speaker D: I was curious about that because I was in the ring a couple of times in the 80s. Not in an actual card, but just fooling around with guys. I know what it's like to be bailed and I know what it's like to be headlocked and I know what it's like to be all those different takeovers and all of that. You hit the mat and all those kinds of things. But that's been 40 years ago. And having the lack of experience, I think makes me a lot more inquisitive, like, how do you know this? Or how do you know that? But I would think it would give you a tremendous advantage for someone like you who actually did it and actually booked and wrote storylines and things like that. [01:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I like to think so. And it helped me just understand it a little bit better. You know, it's just another arrow in your quiver, I guess, is a writer or historian. [01:40:06] Speaker D: Another book that's on my stack that I just open up and read is the Wrestlers. Wrestlers focused on performers that. That were respected by their peers. I mean, that's a fantastic book, Dan. I mean. [01:40:21] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. [01:40:22] Speaker D: That was Brian Young you wrote with. [01:40:25] Speaker A: Right, Brian and I did that. Brian. It was. It was his first book. He's a historian, he's into boxing and entertainment, but a longtime wrestling fan. And he and I were talking one day and. And we just decided he wanted to do a book where all old timers just tell their stories. Like. Yeah, I mean, that's great. And then as it we talked, I had these. This idea of looking at the. The technicians and somehow we began to collaborate and the wrestlers wrestler came out of it. So we interviewed as many wrestlers as we could, talking about the wrestlers that they respected. You know, they're the wrestlers wrestlers, the real pros. And that's where the book kind of came from. So it was a labor of love putting it together. And it came out again right as Covid was breaking out. [01:41:13] Speaker D: So I remember buying it when Covid was out. Yeah, yeah. [01:41:17] Speaker A: A lot of appearances and signings didn't happen, but it was definitely a labor of love. So I'm Glad that you. You enjoy it. [01:41:23] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. What. What do you learn doing all those interviews? What do you think that really, really came out. [01:41:30] Speaker A: You know, quick thing. This is in Rip Rogers. You're having Rip on. On today, right? [01:41:36] Speaker D: It's coming up right after you here. [01:41:37] Speaker A: All right. Well, this is a little tease for that. I don't know if Rip would remember this, but it was at Cauliflower Alley Club several years back. And I was going over this idea, you know, with this book, really, I couldn't really define what a wrestler's wrestler was. And, you know, I talked to Pat Laprot about it. He didn't quite understand it. Greg Oliver didn't quite understand it. And then I was in the gym. That's okay. [01:42:00] Speaker D: I pitched a couple ideas to Greg. He didn't understand either. [01:42:03] Speaker C: So. [01:42:05] Speaker A: So you gotta. You gotta spell things out for now. I'm kidding, Greg. I'm kidding. [01:42:08] Speaker D: You like to give Greg a hard [01:42:09] Speaker A: time, but I'm in the gym with Rip Rogers. You know, early morning, I decided to go and get a little workout in. And he's there and. And talk to him a little bit as he's doing the dumbbells, and he's still in great shape. And I mentioned. I say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this book. And, you know, what do you think? And he looked at me. He stopped what he was doing. He made eye contact. He's like, that's a great idea. That's a book I would read. Like, really? And after that little conversation with Rip, you know, I walked out. And now I went from being. I don't know, I'm on the fence about this idea, to being, you know, this. This might be something different, and it might have legs. And that's where the book really kind of came from. From. [01:42:45] Speaker D: Yeah. At the Waterloo, Steve Johnson congratulated me, and he said, you know, one thing you got that we didn't have is nobody wants to run you out of the banquet room. So I guess that was the year, the Bret Hart thing, I guess. [01:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:43:00] Speaker D: So Greg has been getting a hard time since that. Briscoe and Bradshaw always tell him hockey was invented in Florida, so they've got [01:43:08] Speaker A: more cups than Canada, it seems, at least lately. [01:43:10] Speaker D: Yeah. What is this? You know? So you're getting the James C. Melby Award. It recognizes historians and journalists who preserve the history. What does this mean to you and who else has, really, whether it's a recipient or a writer or a researcher. Who's influenced you the most? Dan? [01:43:33] Speaker A: Well, that's those are good questions what it means to me. I think it's everything, you know, when I start and I'll mention, I'll probably mention this at cac, but when I started up in, in the pwi, Brandi Mankiewicz was one of the other editors there and Brandy was great, became a very close friend of mine. She said something early on and she said, never try to put yourself over as a writer for the magazine. So a lot of people will come in and they'll try to be the next Bill after and become the character, you know, and, and she's like, there already is a Bill, Bill's Bill, you know, Bill, you know. So never try to put spotlight on yourself. Always try to put it on the workers or the storylines or whatever. And I really took that to heart. So you know, I really wanted to try to use the position I had with the magazine to share history find I took over the Whatever happened to column that Scott Till used to have have. I did a short lived thing called super cards and super bouts, little things so I could look up history and, and bring history back to teach a new generation. Because that's how I kind of got a foothold in wrestling is reading these magazines and wanting to learn more. [01:44:49] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:44:49] Speaker A: And putting the spotlight on the history and the, the younger guys and girls who weren't necessarily getting the attention on the national stage yet. So you never become a wrestling writer to get recognition, especially if you're not trying to put yourself over. But to get recognition for what you've contributed feels terrific. So that, that's kind of how I feel in terms of the writers who have influenced me. I mean Scott Thiel is one, Greg Oliver is another one. I love the stuff that Pat Leprade and Bertrand do and there's George Shire and others, you know, so there's, there's a lot. And I try to kind of pick from a lot of different places and see what I can. Steve Johnson's work is, is fantastic with, with and without Greg his Lando's book. So to be considered anywhere adjacent to those names to me, let alone in the same club is just mind blowing to me. [01:45:50] Speaker D: Well, you're, you definitely belong there and, and you definitely deserve it. When you left PWI in 2019, were you a little frustrated with the business? [01:46:01] Speaker A: A little bit. A little bit. You know, I remember distinctly. I was in. Well, yeah, I, I remember distinctly watching WrestleMania that year and I had just begun dating a woman who began. Has become my wife. [01:46:17] Speaker D: Oh, good. [01:46:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And she was not into wrestling at all. She didn't know. I said, listen, I gotta watch WrestleMania. That's going to be my day is all day. I have to do this, I have to write about for the magazine. I do a podcast afterwards, pwi, whatever. [01:46:32] Speaker D: Just real quick, what's her name then? [01:46:34] Speaker A: Atara. [01:46:34] Speaker D: All right. [01:46:35] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:46:36] Speaker D: And Tara going with you? Cauliflower Island. [01:46:38] Speaker A: She is. I've actually got about a dozen people from Buffalo coming up, so. Oh my God. Coming. Which is going to be great. [01:46:44] Speaker D: And oh, the. That's wonderful. [01:46:45] Speaker A: It's gonna be very cool. [01:46:48] Speaker D: But your biggest fan will be right there in the front. [01:46:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's hopeful, but I don't know, it depends. She's my biggest fan on certain days. [01:46:57] Speaker D: She'll be your biggest fan that night, I promise you. [01:46:59] Speaker A: But I remember watching WrestleMania that year and it was just one of. It was before they went to two nights and it was a. All day brutal and every match was just hope, spot finisher, kick out finish. And it's just so tedious. And I'm looking at my wife and now my step kids and like I could be doing anything today. I could be taking them out. We can, we can go kayaking, we can be on a hike, we can be doing. And I'm sitting here watching something I'm not enjoying and after a little while thinking about it, I'm like, you know, maybe I'm just becoming the old man. Maybe the current product, I can watch it in a little bit, but maybe it's time to step aside and let other people do this. So after a while, a short time after that, I got in touch with Stu Sachs, the publisher, and says, you know, I'm thinking I'm done. And he goes, oh, Dan, can you stick around for one more year? I'm like, you know why? He goes, because I'm going to step down too. And I don't want to do this without you. I'll give you like three or four more months and that's it. And. And I stepped down and then stood in shortly afterwards. And they have a whole new staff in there. Kevin McIlvaney took over. Much more of a focus on the independence, the international scene, really changing what the magazine was, which is good. They adapted it for 2026. So it's, it's still fresh and it's still out there. But I realized I was no longer the right person to be doing it. [01:48:28] Speaker D: Looking ahead and I, I know a lot of times as historians, we don't really like to talk about what we're working on or anything. Like that, but I'm just kind of curious. Are there, are there specific territories or eras or performers or aspects of the craft you still like to, to work on or document? [01:48:49] Speaker A: There are, there are certain things I'd like to do more of a deep dive into and look into. I'm not. Nothing. I'm not. I haven't decided on anything quite yet. I flirted with a few ideas I really enjoyed after doing the five year kind of deep dive on Ed Don George. I, I look at the wrestlers, Wrestlers and Sisterhood. Those were collaborations and they were, like you said, books you can pick up at any point. Yes, I might be interested in doing something like that. Maybe a collaboration, maybe one that you can kind of jump into rather than a deep dive on, on one biography. Because it, it's a lot to write about one person's life. But you know, I mean, and I would love to write maybe something about the world class territory. A lot's already been done, you know, but I find that fascinating. [01:49:39] Speaker D: Well, even, you know, I've thought about things like that before. And you know what I always think, Dan, is even though some things have been done on certain things, a different perspective makes the book different. [01:49:52] Speaker A: That is true. [01:49:53] Speaker D: And so your perspective on world class and your thoughts about it and the way that you would document it and tell the story would be different than anybody else. So I always encourage people to not throw out ideas quickly because there's been things done on it because your book would be different than anybody else's and vice versa. [01:50:15] Speaker A: That's true. That is a good point. So who knows [01:50:22] Speaker D: Ed Dodd George? I mean, he was a fascinating fellow. I mean, Olympian champion promoter, he was amateur and pro eras spanned many, many years. What was the thing? And I just thoroughly enjoyed that book too. I could keep putting you over, but I mean, your books are, your books are excellent. And what surprised you the most in researching Ed Don George? [01:50:50] Speaker A: One thing that, well, one thing that surprised me was I started off the search the way I've started a lot of my books in western New York. Going to the Buffalo History Museum. Used to be the Buffalo Erie County Historical Society. They have a research library. And if you go up and you tell the librarian what you're looking for, they disappear in the back. They come out of the big manila envelope filled with all these clippings and you know, and that, that's the like, where I begin the search. I went in and asked about Ed Don George and they, they had nothing. They didn't have anything on him. And I thought, well, that's that's really crazy that there's nothing more written. And then it went through. I'm going through all the microfilm and everything and seeing how he's in the sports pages almost every day of newspapers around the country from 1929 until 1941. George is everywhere. [01:51:42] Speaker D: That was one of the things that I was really amazed at in reading the book is like, man, this dude is a relationship and connection master. Yeah, he made himself interesting to people. People. [01:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he was. He was a great speaker. He was a very. A great wrestler, you know, amateur wrestler. But he was also a great ambassador for the sport of wrestling because he was a. You know, they used to call, you know, the grunt and grown business and everything else. And you have all these kind of characters and people would make fun of the way Londo spoke and everything else. But Ed, Don had this charisma. He was a good looking guy. He small town, farm, farm boy. And he was just, you know, maybe the Nick Bockwinkle of the era. A guy that you look at and you say, okay, I believe him. And. And he's a good representative of the sport, you know, And I. I think that over the past five years, he. I'm seeing more and more about him and maybe the book is part of that in the monument and things like that. But it's nice to see that he's getting more attention in the. The overall sphere. [01:52:47] Speaker D: That's just a fantastic book. And I was just really enthralled and interested in his personal life and all the other things that he faced and he went through and the adversities and things of that nature. I mean, just a fantastic. I wish I could have met him. He was just a fantastic. And I feel like I have met him by reading your book. [01:53:10] Speaker A: That's a compliment right there. Thank you. I just. A couple weeks ago, I was at the Edgeorge Memorial and his sons came up to me, Don and Ted, two of his three sons, who I'd spoken to over the phone, but I'd never met. And they saw me and they came up to me and introduced themselves. They were in from Louisville or, I'm sorry, Louisiana and Florida, I believe, respectively. And they both said, how, you know, they just want to thank you for the book. And, you know, you did such a good job, which. Which is amazing to hear because I'm writing a book about somebody I've never met. And the fact that his sons were able to say to me, you know, you told us some things about our dad that we never knew. And, you know, things that they're very proud of and happy about having. Being able to give that back and share that is as rewarding to me as getting the Melby Award. [01:54:03] Speaker D: I got some just really quick questions that I want to ask you here, and these are to get. To get to know Dan Murphy a little bit better. So what's your best memory that comes to mind for you immediately right now? [01:54:18] Speaker A: Just in. In. In what capacity? In wrestling. [01:54:21] Speaker D: And just pick one. [01:54:23] Speaker A: Just a memory that comes to mind right now. But I guess because we were just talking about Tara, My. My wedding. My wedding night. [01:54:31] Speaker D: It was. [01:54:31] Speaker A: It was a beautiful night with friends and family, second marriage for both of us. And I think this time, you know, you appreciate the little things and the people who are there a little bit more. And you do. So. Yeah, that's. That's a great memory. [01:54:42] Speaker D: Who's the number one hero in your life? [01:54:45] Speaker A: Number one hero in my life, it would be. My dad passed away a few years back, but he's always. I had a cousin pull me aside. He had lost his. His father, my uncle, a few years prior. And he just said in this one moment, and he's not a real deep guy or anything. He's, you know, but he just said, you know, they never really go away. And that stuck with me. They don't really go away. You know, I'm talking about ghosts or whatever. I'm just talking about. They're always there. [01:55:10] Speaker D: Right? [01:55:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think I live every life, every day. There's not an hour that goes by where I don't think of how my dad would do something. So. [01:55:19] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, same here. My dad passed away in 2023, and that's one of the reasons I moved back here to Western Kentucky, is being near my mom in her later years, in her home. And I have dreams about my dad. You know, I mean, he still. He still very much lives in my mind. Like you were talking. What do you think your number one value is? [01:55:42] Speaker A: Number one value? Persistence, if that would be. Maybe that's a trait. [01:55:49] Speaker D: Historians have to have that. [01:55:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And just, I mean, you know, day job is, you know, sales, and you got to chase your sales and finish things off and, you know, yard work, housework, you got to stay on top of things. So persistence is something I admire and I try to foster in myself, building myself. [01:56:09] Speaker D: Every no gets you closer to a yes. [01:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [01:56:13] Speaker D: Get. Get those no's out of the way and get closer to it. Yes. [01:56:16] Speaker A: I had. I was. I just took up disc golf. I'm Just kind of playing around with disc golf now. And, well, I was throwing and some experienced guy was behind me, and I had a terrible throw, and I felt embarrassed because I'm still new. A terrible throw. And the guy just said to me. And again, sage words coming from an odd source. He's like, any forward progress is forward progress. [01:56:35] Speaker D: One percent a day, brother. Who's the most important person in your life? [01:56:42] Speaker A: Most important person in my life. Well, immediate family, you know, my wife, my step kids. You know, everything revolves around them. [01:56:52] Speaker D: Back to that disc golf thing. I was just thinking, you know, repetition builds skill. Yeah. And persistence as a value would come in handy there, because obviously when you begin anything, you're terrible. You know, I just think about regular golf, you know, and just. And just continuing to get those repetitions in until you, you know, finally kind of figure it out, so. [01:57:14] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. And in disc golf, you know, it's. It's the. The discs are all different and the wind is different and the courses are different. Every day is, you know, every throw is different. So it's. It's fun. [01:57:23] Speaker D: What's your favorite thing in the whole world? [01:57:26] Speaker A: Favorite thing in the whole world. Does wrestling count? [01:57:29] Speaker D: It does, yeah. [01:57:31] Speaker B: No. [01:57:32] Speaker A: You know what? I'll tell you my favorite thing. If the camera's on, I don't know if you can see him. Right there. [01:57:37] Speaker D: Look at him. Look at him. [01:57:38] Speaker A: Beagle. [01:57:39] Speaker D: That's Gordy, all right. I'm very much a dog guy. [01:57:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I've got three of them, but Gord is. I've had Gourd with me for nine and a half. Well, eight and a half. No, nine years now. Nine years. He's ten and he is. The other two dogs are sleeping out somewhere else in the house, but Gord is always at. At all times within arm's reach of me. He'll always stay right by my side. [01:58:02] Speaker D: So over the. Over the course of my life, I've had six blue heelers and first. First one when I was about five years old, but Oreo was my last one, and she was my first rescue dog, and she passed away in November 2024. And I think now here we are heading into the second half of 2026. I'm just about ready to get another one. [01:58:27] Speaker A: But always I've had enough people. You know, it's like you never replace them. You're not replacing them. You're just. [01:58:34] Speaker D: You're. [01:58:34] Speaker A: You're stepping in for another dog that could use you and that you could use. [01:58:37] Speaker D: Yeah, about a year, year and a half is usually my Time in between. I. Yeah, I don't know. I have that morning time where. [01:58:45] Speaker A: See, what I do is I. When I, I keep three and one's the older one's, the puppy one's in the middle. [01:58:51] Speaker D: You've got the rotation already. Yeah. [01:58:53] Speaker A: And they, they teach each other. You know, it's like you get the new puppy and the older one's like, this is how we do things. You know, you can't, can't pee over here. You go outside, you know. [01:59:02] Speaker D: Yeah. The dogs are just fantastic. Like they're pack animals and there's always a leader and a teacher and. Yeah, they're smart. What's your favorite food? [01:59:12] Speaker A: Iliot Apollo's. Anything. Anything on the menu at Eliot Apollos. Although I'm in a little bit of a. Trying to drop weight for cac. I want to look good. You know, it's my red carpet. You don't get this often. [01:59:25] Speaker D: So I went through several weeks of going. I hope my suit still fit because I haven't, I haven't worn them in a while. [01:59:32] Speaker A: I'm, I'm on a strict diet right now. I'm trying to drop another 15. 20 pounds. Well, 15 would be good, but I'm down a little bit. I'm going to keep going. So right now my favorite food is oatmeal. [01:59:43] Speaker D: Persistence. Keep that persistence. Most beautiful place you've ever been to. [01:59:49] Speaker A: Killarney, Ireland. Killarney national, uh, Park. Uh, was there one time I was horseback riding in the park right as the sun was rising over the McGillicuddy Reeks Mountains, and just running alongside the wild red elk that are there. And it was just one of those things where you realize, you know, I don't know if life ever becomes more beautiful scenery wise than this. [02:00:13] Speaker D: Certainly winning this award and being recognized by one of the leading historical clubs, the Cauliflower Alley, puts a stamp on your success. But if you could describe success in one word, what would that word be? [02:00:33] Speaker A: Impact. The impact you have on others. The impact you have whether your stuff. I mean, this is more than one word, but impact is the word. But, you know, whether your stuff makes a difference to people and, and whether it's appreciated. I mean, maybe that's not the best, but I think impact would, would work. [02:00:54] Speaker D: It's. It's made an impact on me and I certainly appreciate it. How do you want to be remembered [02:01:01] Speaker A: as Grappler X? [02:01:04] Speaker D: Well, we, we mentioned it. We got, we keep the legend going. [02:01:08] Speaker A: Funny thing about that. And just real quick is, yeah, I was doing a book signing years Ago with Dick the Destroyer Buyer, another masked guy. And one of Jordan Shire's favorites, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. And he's on the COVID of Body Slams in Buffalo. So we were there signing books and. And I was promoting Empire State wrestling. I was booking, and he. He didn't know that, but I had the flyers for Empire State out there, and nobody knew I was Grappler X because the booker. But I was just doing job duty, whatever, so. Yeah, but he picks up the flyer and he looks. He's like Grappler X. I like the look of this kid, you know, because he was Dr. X, you know? [02:01:45] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [02:01:46] Speaker A: And I'm just thinking, you know, it's me. I'm not gonna say anything. [02:01:50] Speaker D: Wow. [02:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:01:52] Speaker D: If you could go back and talk to a younger Dan Murphy, what advice would you give him? [02:01:59] Speaker A: Save money. Just save money. You know, I mean, life is. You know, we're in the. I was just watching a video earlier. You know, I'm Generation X, that sandwich generation. My mom's still here. My. My wife's parents are around. We have step kids. Have to take care of the parents and the kids and, you know, nothing. You got kids, college loans and parents with medical things, and it's just better to be prepared, you know, so save money because, you know, one day you'll need it. [02:02:32] Speaker D: Do you have a favorite sound? [02:02:34] Speaker A: Favorite sound? The dog behind me. Gordy, My beagle. Dreaming. [02:02:43] Speaker D: Yep. [02:02:43] Speaker A: Little whimper noises he makes when he's dreaming. [02:02:46] Speaker D: Well, not only have you experienced a lot of life, but you've studied a lot of lives as well, because a lot of your books are about the lives of people. What's the best lesson you've learned? [02:03:03] Speaker A: To. To stay true to yourself. To. To not. Not live your life according to other people's plans for you, but live the life that. That brings you happiness. And you'll see that over and over in. In Sisterhood of the Squared Circle and at Don George's book. People who. Who didn't do what society had. Had laid out for him, didn't follow the plan and took a risk and they lived their own life and it paid out for them. [02:03:35] Speaker D: A lot of our listeners will recognize these names, but even if you don't recognize some of them, look them up and you'll. You'll find some interesting stuff. Names like Scott Teal, Stephen Yohi, Vince Nevada, Tom Burke, George Shire, Dennis Brent, Dave Meltzer, Don Luce, Mike Rogers, Greg Oliver, Steve Johnson, Koji Miyamoto, Jason Presley, Bertrand Hebert and Pat Laproud. And that list will now Include Dan Murphy, my guest today, the Winner of the 2026 Cauliflower Alley James C. Melby award. And once again, Dan, congratulations. It's a wonderful honor for you. [02:04:18] Speaker A: Thank you so much. And being on, being on the show is an honor as well. Thank you for, for everything. [02:04:23] Speaker D: You bet, man. Thanks for coming by. [02:04:25] Speaker A: No problem, man. [02:04:27] Speaker D: I hope you enjoyed that visit between Dan Murphy and myself. And he just an incredibly nice fella and so intelligent, such a great writer. I. I could only hope that someday my writing skills would somehow approach those. Mr. Murphy. I mean, my goodness, those books. I love every single one of his works and I hope you check them out sometime. And as a nice congratulations for Dan and award very well deserved at the Cauliflower Alley Club this year. All right, the show rolls on. And next up, I gotta mention my sponsor. While you're sitting there soaking up all these old school wrestling stories, don't forget to actually smell like you belong in our territory. Of course, my sponsor is the Grizzly Up Soap Company. The real deal family outfit from Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Cranking out small batch goat milk soaps that hit harder than a forearm smash, harder than a power slam. Whether you need oatmeal, milk and honey to smooth things out. Kentucky bourbon, of course. My favorite then strong. No sense, no nonsense. No nonsense, Tony. Not no sense, no nonsense, no nonsense scent. Say that fast. Who writes this stuff? Southern Comfort is another great brand that they have of soap that will make your bathroom and you smell fantastic and it'll help you wind down after the show today. They got you covered no matter what you need. They've also got beard oils, body butters. Again, who writes this? Beard oils and body butters. That's a good country song, isn't it? If you want the full grizzly upgrade, you can do that. We've got something coming up really, really soon. And I've got to get with these guys to get this lined out because I'm excited to have this for you guys. Get on your soapbox, which is going to be a special soap box made up of products from the Grizzly Oak soap company for our listeners and watchers at the pro wrestling time tunnel History show. So we got to get this get on your soapbox thing moving, man, because I'm excited to get this into the hands of some of you guys. You can shop online at grizzlyupsoapco.com or swing by the shop at 200 East 9th street in good old Hopkinsville, Kentucky. If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly and smell Good. While you do it, grizzly up soap company. Clean up like a legend. That brings me to my final guest for today and the main event of today's show. A guy by the name of hustler Rip Rogers. He worked in Angelo Poffo's ICW which is where I first saw him and saw him many, many times. He was part of a duo with his wife Brenda Britton and he was an amazing singles wrestler. He got into a tag team. It was kind of a funny tag team, the Convertible Blondes, which was obvious that Mark or Rip was not a blonde and Pez was obviously not a blonde, but they were converted to blondes and they had a third member which a lot of people don't remember. But early on they were a three man team. Rip Rogers, Pest Whateley and Gary Royal who would go on to become the NWA World Junior Heavyweight Champion. They used the freebird rule and won the ICW United States Tag Team Championship two times. And he also teamed up. Rip did with Randy Savage. Early on he left ICW after a little bit of a family dispute with Randy, Angelo, Lanny, who were the other partners? Rip was a partner in the in the company as were some of the other wrestlers. In 1979 he went up to the Pacific Northwest in the NWA Portland and worked for Don Owen. He aligned himself with Buddy Rose and Ed Wiscoskey and made appearances in Vancouver's All Star Wrestling as well. He also gained experience through bodybuilding competitions. Remember that year that he and Randy were in the Mr. Kentucky bodybuilding contest? It was pretty cool. 1984 he went to Jim Crockett Promotions and Mid Atlantic Wrestling and Georgia Championship Wrestling. 1986 he worked for Ron Fuller in the Continental Wrestling association where he worked as the Hustler and had a ongoing never thought it'd ever be over feud with the exotic Adrian street. And he spent time in Stampede Wrestling in Calgary as a mid card heel. And he had a strong run. I'm sorry, sorry. Excuse me guys. He had a strong run in 1989 in the world Wrestling Council in Puerto Rico with a Buddha Dean as one of his partners. He went on to do independent work and now he is best known as one of. He's retired now, but he was one of the most talented and wonderful and thorough trainers of talent in professional wrestling. And that is the award he is being bestowed on, is being bestowed upon him this year. The Ron Hutchison Trainers Award from the Cauliflower Alley. And I have been looking forward to this so much and Rip has told me that this will not be the last time he's on my program. We're going to have him come back. We have some things we want to talk about. And so he is more than willing to do that. And he's a good friend of mine. He was the first person. When I left Waterloo after the hall of Fame in July, I got in my. I said goodbye to. By the JBL and James Beard and James Beard's nephew. They were getting in the pickup truck they had rented and they were driving to the airport to fly back to Texas, and I was driving back to Kentucky. We said goodbye in the parking garage. I got in my truck and no sooner had I gotten out of the parking garage and gotten on the highway home, and my phone rang and it lit up on my dashboard. Who was calling? And it said, Hustler Rip Rogers. And Rip called and was the first person to call me after the hall of Fame weekend and congratulate me on the Melby Award. And I will always treasure that and always remember that and always be appreciative of that. And I'm appreciative of our relationship. And I can't wait to share this conversation with you here at the Richards Ranch with the one and the only hustler R.I.P. roger. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. I'm Tony Richards, joined today by the winner of the. Is it the Ron Hutchinson Training Award, Rip, that you got? [02:11:15] Speaker B: Yep. [02:11:15] Speaker D: Yep. [02:11:15] Speaker B: That's what that. That's what. See, I seen this thing a long time ago, and I thought it said 86 or whatever the hell it was. I thought Ron was going to get honored this year was what I thought. [02:11:32] Speaker D: But did you. [02:11:34] Speaker B: I know that, but I didn't know that. I found it out on my goddamn show. I think last week or the week before, whatever. [02:11:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I was watching. I saw. [02:11:43] Speaker B: I didn't know. [02:11:44] Speaker D: I saw Brian Blair and Ron Hutchinson and it kind of caught you off guard a little bit. [02:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, because I didn't think nothing of. I was thinking for next year, hey, you know. [02:11:54] Speaker D: You know one thing that you and I have in common, and we've never talked about this, but I wanted to bring it up, but you and I both watched Phil Golden's All Star Wrestling [02:12:04] Speaker B: and From Paducah, Kentucky. [02:12:07] Speaker D: That's right. And not a lot of people can say that. [02:12:10] Speaker B: Well, they got. First of all, they got to be old if they saw it. And then you had to adjust your antenna as I'd get on the roof if I wanted to see the chic in Cincinnati. I'd adjust it to the east if I wanted to go down south so I could see Louisville wrestling. And then I'd go west and I'd look for Phil Golden's All Star Wrestling there. [02:12:34] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. That was the first wrestling show that I saw on television. And the Bass brothers were there with Mob Bass. And they were the first tag team I saw at a live wrestling show, too, in 74. [02:12:49] Speaker B: Okay. The first show I ever went to was 1961. Oh, my school, which was Seymour High School. I was seven years old. I watched Dick the Bruiser against Cowboy Bob Ellis. Oh, my. I remember Joe. And Guy Brunetti was there, but that's all I remember. My grandpa took me, and I was hooked. And I was hooked from then on. [02:13:08] Speaker D: That's right. Yeah. I was hooked on it, too. What. What. What. What precipitated you to get into the business? How did that work? [02:13:16] Speaker B: Work? Hell, I don't know. I'm just that When. When I graduated from Seymour high school in 1972, I said, I'm going to college and play football. Then I'm. This is when everything was kayfabe, Right? [02:13:28] Speaker D: Right. [02:13:28] Speaker B: I said, I'm gonna find some way to become a championship wrestler. And that's what I did. So I was a school teacher in Union City, Indiana. I taught pe, Health, science and biology. Then I was a football coach. And then I became. I said, excuse me, I. This ain't. I'm going to be. I'm going to find out some way to be a wrestler. So I moved back. So I moved back to Indianapolis and ran Hoffmeister's gym, which is the oldest gym in America, in the same building. I met Handsome Jimmy Valiant there. [02:14:00] Speaker D: Ah, that's the relationship. [02:14:03] Speaker B: So all of a sudden, he's. We're taking my car to go to Louisville and Evansville. Right. Then we drive back that night and everything. And first he had a Claire. Was. [02:14:14] Speaker C: Was. [02:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Claire was his wife. And then it. This is when he was bit. He was. Didn't. Was when he was with Big Mama on the side and. And always got Claire. Now, that's the new one I'm thinking about the. The what the old one was. But he. But I'm. I was at Handsome Jimmy's house in Niles, Illinois, and he had the big gym in his garage. But when he come to the gym, he'd do one set of everything. And he always had. Had the cowboy boots on, the flared jeans, of course, no underwear, the. The gold chain and a sweater. He'd do one set of everything. But he'd just barely rep out. It was all like a rib. Like he was. Like he was working me. [02:15:00] Speaker D: How long did you ride with Jimmy? [02:15:02] Speaker B: Not very long. Just enough to meet people and whatever, because I. I had to do to find out I had to get in this son of a. If not, they're just going to string me along and use me like all the boys. You know that. [02:15:17] Speaker D: So who did you learn from right off the bat? [02:15:22] Speaker B: I don't. I don't think I really learned anything. For a long time. It was. I didn't have. [02:15:28] Speaker D: You just watch. You just watch it. [02:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't. And that'd be like a mark. I was just a mark. I went to all the shows, and pretty soon I was working Dick the Brute. But I went to Oak Hill, West Virginia, and bullshit my way in. I've told that story on. On a lot of them. A buddy of mine, Steve Cooper, who was Randy Savage's manager, and he was from southwest Virginia, so he went home and worked a show, and I didn't. I didn't believe him. So. But he had taped it on. On the TV or whatever it was. I had a. I had an audio of it of his name being. I said, okay. So the next week, I went with him. That week. I met the original Cuban Assassin, Angel Answer. I met the Batten brothers, who were wrestling each other and almost killing each other both up working in hoods. And then I got. Because the guy said, Warren Sherbeck says, hey, where you from? Indianapolis? I said, yeah. He goes, well, you must work for the bruiser, of course. I said, yeah, right. I didn't know what the hell he's talking about. Then he said, are you baby face or heel? I said, yeah. He goes, oh, good. You work both ways. I'm going, what the. You know. He said, when you get the pencil, go home. When I get the pencil, go home. When I get the pencil, go home. What the is he talking about? Right? [02:16:52] Speaker D: So you're like, I saw the Chic stabbing people with the pencil. Is that what he means? You know? [02:16:57] Speaker B: No, he was. [02:16:58] Speaker D: He missed the book. [02:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah. He would be sitting there ringside, and when he'd put the pencil to his nose, that man go home. So when I get the pencil, go home. I just got here. I didn't know one thing of terminology. Right, right. Because it was. It was just so kayfade. And then. And then I ended up working for Bruiser, and I ended up working for the goddamn Chic, and the Sheik worked for me, and ICW When I was a business partner with him. And he just laughed in the list. And the list goes on and on. [02:17:30] Speaker D: How did you meet up with Angelo and Randy and them? [02:17:34] Speaker B: Well, in 1977, there was this old carney game. Guy named Don Pruitt or Don Brandenburg or whatever. He booked me in a show. It was Nick Gulas, Christmas Night Spectacular. And me and Lanny, they had some kind of tournament. And I was just saying, I was just plain old goofy. Mark Shower didn't do no. Didn't know nothing. But I was tag team partners with Lanny, so I met him. And then when I met him, I was working. Let's see, I got into Maritimes in 78. This is when Randy, Lanny and Angelo went out there and worked with Emile Dupre. It was Dupre's first thing with first territory where he had tv because before he had no TV and Emil was always two girls, two midgets, a masked guy, you know what I mean? But then the guys that Al Zink went out of business because he spent too much money. But then I worked for Emil. 78, 88, 90 and 97. And the last time I was there, I drove Bad news Allen, Bad news. Alan Cohatch, he was. He was in the front seat with me. I was driving. He was just talking and telling stories. But I met Ed and Christian Scott d' Amore on that Rick Martell when he was the supermodels. And so he ran. I don't know how long it was, but. And then right after that I got back and I, Danny Davis want me to buy into OVW, so I did that. [02:19:11] Speaker D: Right, right. 78 is when Angelo came back and got his license in, I think Lexington. He got his Kentucky promoter's license, I think. [02:19:20] Speaker B: No, what it was in Judy's name because you couldn't be. You couldn't be a promoter and a worker, right? [02:19:26] Speaker D: Yeah, that's right. [02:19:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:27] Speaker D: His wife's Judy's name. You know, Don Pruitt is a name around Kentucky, I think it is, I think. Notorious name. [02:19:36] Speaker B: Well, he was Don Pruitt, but then he was Don Brandenburg. And his wife would take the money and she held it like a carnival person, a carny. Right. She would just zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom in, bills out. I never seen anything like it. It was so good. [02:19:50] Speaker D: What did Don Pruitt look like? [02:19:52] Speaker B: Just a middle aged heavy guy, sort of balding hair. I knew right away. I learned wrestlers don't tell the truth about anything. So I was prepared for that. [02:20:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:20:08] Speaker B: But I was the guy that named Angelo was the Carpetbagger. I named him the Miser because then he started when I bought in with him and he was the Miser. [02:20:18] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, I remember that. I used to go to all those shows every week that you guys would do. How long were you there till 80, till it closed. Were you there to close to 85? [02:20:33] Speaker B: No, no, no, Randy. Let's see. My first wife, Brenda Britton was. Was the ring girl then. She started out as Randy's manager and Randy wanted her and he got mad because she wanted me. So I just went off and started working Watts. Cause Rupe Orton, Garvin Malenko, all those guys went through and then they, they left early and stuff because they couldn't make it on the salaries we were taking. But I don't was all me and I already had enough money stick by and then. But because it's like when Angelo ran the territory, we had two diesel vans to carry a baby face group and a heel group. He just bought them. So the Trans was there then he had. He brought a brand new Iveco ring truck too. So at one time, a lot of times we was double booked but on two sides. We actually ran three shows with three different crews. [02:21:39] Speaker D: Wow. [02:21:40] Speaker B: So on one crew I would, I would take the money. I'd settle up like if we is at the Raleigh County Civic center in Beckley, which we was running at the first Wednesday. Of course the first Wednesday of the month is always the. Your best draws because all the people that are on Social Security or crazy money or whatever you want to call it, they had money that the first week. So we always ran, ran Pike Bill, then we ran Johnson City was Tuesdays. The first Wednesday of the month was Beckley. And I can't remember what, I get confused of what territory was in, but [02:22:19] Speaker D: I was at the National Guard Armory in Paducah, Kentucky on a Friday night and I saw Brenda and Pam Watson in a mud man. [02:22:26] Speaker B: In a mud match, right? Yeah. [02:22:30] Speaker D: Was that a one thing or did y' all do that around? [02:22:33] Speaker B: No, we went around. Hey, when we had the mud match, it drew everywhere. Yeah, when we had the bear, it drew everywhere. So we could have not had wrestling and just have what we do. It'd be like we advertise in Purdue the Paducah wrestling bear wrestling champion. But it was determined by the fans applause. So in other words, all your relatives would come in because we would give you a $10 trophy. But it would say Paducah, you know, bear wrestling champion. Yes, exactly what it was. Because you can Go out there and not touch the bear. But if all your family, whoever gets the most applause. That's what it was. That's the way it was done. [02:23:20] Speaker D: I remember. Man, that was so cool. That was cool. And of course I didn't have any relatives there, just me and my two buddies. So I was never the Paducah Bear and Jamie. [02:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. But I mean there would be some guys and they would go to this town and they would go to this town too and take their troop with them. Which I, which we encourage. We just want an extra 15 people there to buy tickets. [02:23:41] Speaker D: Right, right. Where did you enjoy working the most? [02:23:46] Speaker B: Calgary. [02:23:48] Speaker D: Really? [02:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I like Calgary. Because your transportation was provided. [02:23:54] Speaker D: Stuart had the van, right? [02:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, we had the van and it would always break down and then he, but he, he had a, a bunch of, of not dead vans but different parts out of there and they'd fix it and then we would go to the next one. But I always wrote but Jerry Morrow, which I said he could speak four languages but none of them were, none of them were goddamn English. But we would have all the guys and we'd be picked up at the, at the Tana Mall. That was the hotel. I remember Bruce Hart took me there the first night. [02:24:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:24:27] Speaker B: The Tanama Hotels where all the boys stayed. There was a tit bar going to your left. There was a tit bar going to your right. So I just think you got. I get picked up at the Tana Mall. Dropped off. The Tana mall. There was two buffets within a block each way. [02:24:44] Speaker D: Wow. [02:24:44] Speaker B: BJ's gym was about a 10 minute walk to my left. Left. And I remember that's when little Harry Smith would be there working out. And, and I'm trying to think of BJ's kid who was nutty, Nutty Teddy Hart. Yeah. The cat man. Yeah. They would be little kids. I'd always say Teddy would be swinging from the chandeliers. But that was an exaggeration. That was a wrestling. I pulled a dusty and, and made a, a 50 second story into six minutes, you know. [02:25:16] Speaker D: Know where, where did you like the working the least? [02:25:24] Speaker B: I didn't. There wasn't. I just love the wrestling business so much. I just wanted to go see different territories, see different styles. How did they do tv? Well, they got a two camera set up this. They. The Von Erics had the six camera set up and everything. You would steal angles. This is when there wasn't cable tv of course. I mean I'd see Gary Ports, Garfield Ports, Jeff Ports's son. But Then he'd have another name in when he was in Calgary. Now, I can't think of it right now because I'm trying to think of it. And it'd be like Johnny Rods would wear the same clothes, but he'd be Java Rook someplace, and he'd be Johnny Rod someplace. [02:26:04] Speaker D: Right? [02:26:05] Speaker B: So if you're a historian, you're saying. Yeah, you start laughing and you again, because you heard about it or whatever, but guys today, they. They don't. Nuh. [02:26:16] Speaker D: I don't. I spoke. Well, I'm just gonna say I spoke to you as I was driving home from Waterloo the other day, and I. I told you Ron Fuller was there, and I know you wish you would have been there because you really liked working for Ron, didn't you? [02:26:28] Speaker B: Oh, I love. I love working. Ron never told me what to do. He said, hey, I want to have you come in and work for work with Adrian Street. I said, this is going to be cool, because I had. I had met Adrian in Global, and we stayed together, and we did nothing but tell fucking stories. So I know his. His story, and he knew mine. He had the valet. I had the melee valet. It was nothing. It was nothing but fun. And I worked with him 26 weeks in a row around the Loop. And then when I was done there, Bob's earning. Ron says, what do you want? Who you want to work with? I said, no, I'm leaving. He said, what? I said, oh, no. I'm trying to get all these territories that are still open so I can learn their style and learn their history. And for later on. He says, okay, so the. So the last thing, he. He booked himself against me. I got the heat on him. He beat the shit out of me, and he beat me, and he spanked and Brenda, he. He put her over his knee, and he spanked her too. So he just killed us all. But it was a comedy thing. You know what I mean? [02:27:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [02:27:39] Speaker B: But I said, oh, thank you very much, and I went to the next place. [02:27:43] Speaker D: And you. I told you Roy Lee was there too. Roy Lee? [02:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Roy Lee was so funny because Roy Lee always took the money. Right? [02:27:50] Speaker D: Right. [02:27:51] Speaker B: And of course, everybody had their clicker in their counter, and there might be this. This many people there or this many people, but the house was always basically the same. So he was skimming how much and what. And then it split that up. But it doesn't matter because a promoter can play, could pay you anything you wanted to, no matter what, if you liked you and you had a big guarantee. He's losing money on you. But he's screwing the underneath guys because the guys, on guarantees, they had to get their money first. The underneath things, they're gonna. They're gonna stay six weeks and leave because they can't make it. It'd be like you go and come in and work for Nick Gulas for six weeks just to try and break even. [02:28:33] Speaker D: Did you work for Goolas? [02:28:35] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. I was. I was the infamous Disco Kid there. [02:28:38] Speaker D: That's right. Yeah, that's right. [02:28:39] Speaker B: So I was the actual. I was the first guy to have goddamn music since the original Gorgeous George. And I'd have the Boom Bopp and everything. I had McCarland, Hildegard, shit. I had the black afro, had the big pick in my hair. Was I rot? Yes. I was the worst wrestler in the history of wrestling. But you got to start somewhere. [02:29:00] Speaker D: Were you there at the same time Randy and Dutch were doing their thing? [02:29:03] Speaker B: Yes, I was. Huh? Yeah. And they had a. That was. The territory was so bad that when them to worked, it was goddamn magic. It was fucking magic. [02:29:19] Speaker D: Yeah. That kept Nick going a little while after the. [02:29:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So why. [02:29:25] Speaker D: Why you were. You lived with Randy Savage. You probably knew him better than anybody. [02:29:30] Speaker B: I know him better than anybody in the goddamn world besides his fucking parents. [02:29:35] Speaker D: Why. Why were they always getting into scrapes and problems? I mean, they were down in the Gulf coast territory. They got into it with Foley and Heath and. And. And all of that. And then Randy gets into it with Bill Dundee and Nashville. [02:29:51] Speaker A: Why. [02:29:51] Speaker D: Why was they always getting into that kind of stuff? [02:29:54] Speaker B: Well, that was Randy. Now. Now, the thing. What it was, was what you don't know is, like, in Memphis, Randy was. We was in opposition with Ron Fuller. We was in opposition with pretty much all of Jared's tapes or, you know, the. They had the strongest station in town. In Memphis, we had a shitty station on a shitty time slot that would get knocked around. They had that solid TV time slot. They had the good station in Evansville. We had a shitty one. They had the good station in. They had Channel 3, Louisville. That was the best station in town. We was on channel 41. No, that was Louisville, But. [02:30:38] Speaker A: I know. [02:30:38] Speaker D: But y' all were based in Lexington, so. [02:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it was based in Lexington because what we did was we made TVs. We made the TVs in. In Louisville at WDRB studio, and we made 10 tapes in two days. Then our first TV was Hazard, so we moved to Lexington because that was the closest thing to Hazard. That's. That's how. That's how that thing started. [02:31:03] Speaker D: But y' all had some stuff there at Rough arena, you know. [02:31:07] Speaker B: Oh yeah. See before we was. We was running. We got Henry Clay High School. [02:31:12] Speaker D: Yeah. Big high school basketball gym. [02:31:14] Speaker B: Yes, it was. It was good. But Randy wanted. He wanted to. To try Rupp Arena. So what we did, we did the. The biggest we ever did in. In our history. And we. But we make. Took out these huge ads and everybody. Everything. So what we drew. But it was. But we didn't make no money. So that's stupid. [02:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:31:39] Speaker B: Now we need to go back to the goddamn high school and. And make a profit. And not because it look. Because when. When Jared would come out with that big beautiful ad every once a month. Right. And then we was. And Randy's or we're looking minor league and shit. I said, well, we got to look in minor league because we are minor league, you know. And then Randy, he eventually made up with them and then. [02:32:05] Speaker D: But Yalls best drawing town was Frankfurt, wasn't it? [02:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:32:11] Speaker D: Well, no, Becky, because you didn't really have any competition in Frankfurt. Jarrett didn't run. [02:32:16] Speaker B: Right. See what happens is Tuesday nights they ran Louisville and then they ran somewhere else Thursday. I can't remember where it was. [02:32:24] Speaker D: Well, every now and then they'd run Madisonville or Owensboro or something. [02:32:28] Speaker B: Okay. [02:32:30] Speaker D: It's a spot show night Thursday night, you know. [02:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I just. I just remember. And then of course, Randy. Me and Randy. I did. I was Randy's best friend at the time, so we had to go to matches. [02:32:41] Speaker D: Right. [02:32:42] Speaker B: And then. So he's. He's wanting to. He's wanting to fight. Like fight him, you know what I mean? But he's walking around. Everybody knew who he was from TV and they knew we. He was challenged him. And they were all yeah. And they were just told to just ignore us. Right. We'll go away. And that was. And that was the best way. And that was the best way to go. You don't even recognize the competition. I was just minority partner. So I and I just shut the up. But did as I told. And I had to be on. If you're either. You're either with Randy or against him. Yeah. [02:33:16] Speaker D: So Randy was kind of going nuts wanting to challenge him head on. What was Angelo's thoughts about it? [02:33:22] Speaker B: Oh, Miser was the head. But he. Whatever Randy wanted, Randy got. Randy was. He was a member of the National Honor Society. Played goddamn minor league baseball for fucking five years. He learned to fucking throw left handed. When they cut him for being. They said we won the left hand third first baseman, Right? Right. So he learned to throw right handed. [02:33:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:33:47] Speaker B: And then he said, holy. How do we get rid of this mug? Because they scared Randy would burn the clubhouse down. [02:33:54] Speaker A: What. [02:33:55] Speaker D: What was. What was Lanny's thoughts about it? [02:33:58] Speaker B: Lanny knows. Lanny's brother was. We called Randy the Czar Czar. The Czar. The leader. Right, Right. And he was just the opposite of Randy. Lanny was so dope. D. Dope dee dope dee dope. Didn't give a. About anything. Just wanted to eat half ass train, do whatever else you could do without getting in trouble. And he was. He was like. I. I never. He was one of the guys that was drinking. Drinking a gallon of this. It was distilled water then. I never seen him drink any pop or eat chocolate or anything. He never. He never ate any junk food. And he was the guy that. He started the. The moon. He would do the moonsault. But it was called the sky drop. [02:34:46] Speaker D: Yes, I remember. [02:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah. But he was so good. And so we had the big match with me against him in the hair match. I got my goddamn head shaved and I. I kept hard waning, busting his eyes and headbutting him. His eyes. And his eyes were black for about two weeks. But we give him the haircutting all the way down to the nub. So we did as we were advertised. [02:35:12] Speaker D: You guys had one of the most amazing rosters in 1980. I mean, you had. Oh, my gosh, you had Savage and Garvin on top. You had Bob Orton Jr. And Bob Root for the TV title. You had you and Pez Watch. You had Lanny and George Weingaroff. And against the Devil's Duo, I mean, it was an amazing group of talent. [02:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And the Devil's Duo, that's. That was Miser's old team when he had from. From how many years? [02:35:41] Speaker D: Bronco. [02:35:42] Speaker B: Yeah, with Broncos. And when I was in Dallas, Bronco was a manager. And I'd start laughing because you put a shoulder down and he wouldn't get down. He'd just go, go. He'd either count with his foot or he'd just go, one, two. I go, what the is this? You know? But I said, oh, that's just Bronco. Okay, now I understand how he does it, so I'll be ready for it. [02:36:02] Speaker D: Hey, were you. Was it a car accident that caused you to start doing the training with guys? [02:36:10] Speaker B: You mean, like, in. What. [02:36:12] Speaker D: What caused. What caused you to get out of the ring and start training guys? I thought it Was a car wreck. I thought you were in a car accident. [02:36:18] Speaker B: Well, I, I was. I got hit and run, left for dead. But, but what I was doing first, I was. Danny Davis was, was training the WWE guys and it was so much stress. He sort of like had a heart attack. [02:36:34] Speaker D: Oh my. [02:36:34] Speaker B: The kayfabe heart attack. And he was up. So he said, can you take over? So I said, sure. So I just took over. And that's. But I was his business partner at that time. And then, then we went to Jim Cornett's mother's funeral and he showed me the new building, the plans for that. So we moved to the, the new building. It's still the same building that they have OVW at now. But then I, I was there, I, I was there 20 years, then all of a sudden I just, I just got sick at. I just got tired of it. I was just burnt out. You get that in any job, right? [02:37:13] Speaker D: Oh, of course. [02:37:14] Speaker B: Of 20 straight years. And I was living first and I was living in, in Indianapolis and driving to goddamn Louisville every, every day, right? And they wouldn't give me no health insurance. WWE wouldn't. So I had to get my own. Hell, I had to get another part time job. So I was working at UPS at night. So I was getting very little sleep, but I was training and everything and that. And that was it. But yeah, I got hit and run. Left for dead. Then I see, I seen the woman at a. I was getting honored for something for some kind of wrestling, this and that. And it was. They was honoring me and her because she was a. All American track girl. [02:37:57] Speaker D: The girl that hit you? [02:37:59] Speaker B: Yes, the girl that hit me. And I said, hey. And I told her her name. She said, yeah, that's me. Of course she was fat now and a lesbian. And I said, you don't remember me, do you? I said, you were the guy that ran over me and took off. And I got your driver's light. I got your. [02:38:17] Speaker D: The thing on the plate. [02:38:18] Speaker B: Well, I got your license plate and that. So I've. I've been up every day since then in my life. But what happened to her? Nothing. Had no insurance, no license, driving somebody else's car. But she was the black lesbian, so of course she got, she got away with it. [02:38:37] Speaker D: I want to read something that you put in your book that really. I really loved it. It really resonated with me. Says the business didn't really change. People are the same. Today's wrestlers unfortunately don't have the opportunity to work six or seven days a week in territory, territories, and be led by real veterans to learn to call it in the ring, to learn different regional styles and to be different characters. I mean, repetition builds skill. Right. And what I love about that was the first part of what you said. The business didn't really change. People are the same. The things that people care about and their psychology. We talk about the wrestling business changing, but I like what you say. The business didn't really change. People aren't any different than they ever were. [02:39:22] Speaker B: Right, Right. But today's wrestling [02:39:26] Speaker D: doesn't really focus on that. [02:39:28] Speaker B: They don't know how to do old style. They've grow. They've grown up watching stupid wwe. They grew up now watching aew. So, in other words, there's nobody teaching traditional wrestling, wrestling. And. But the. The companies don't care. What's the. How much money did the TKO guys make? [02:39:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:39:58] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [02:39:59] Speaker D: Right. [02:40:00] Speaker B: And the owners, and they're not wrestlers. They don't give a. It used to be, you know, Bill Watts was in Louisiana, but he also had parts of percentage of Atlanta, percentage of the Dallas, a percentage of Eddie Graham's thing in. In Tampa. And OIE was the same way. So me and you would be business partners. Hey, I got. I need these. Can you see these underneath, guys? For three months. Yeah. Well, let's swap these out. Okay. And it was on. It was like the old NWA meeting where that would be all the promoters there, and then there would be Vince McMahon Senior. He would be. He would be in there, too. And then sometimes Bern Ganya would be in there. So. But that's just wrestling. [02:40:46] Speaker D: But I. But I love this. You said I've taught wrestling for over 20 years. Of course, that's at the time you wrote this book. [02:40:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:40:52] Speaker D: The body, the gear, the gimmick, the promo, the moves. That's the easy part. [02:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:40:57] Speaker D: The psychology is the hard part. [02:40:59] Speaker B: Right. And usually guys don't ever get it. The stars don't get it. [02:41:05] Speaker D: But, Rip, can you learn? Can you work? Can you learn that without working in front of people? [02:41:11] Speaker B: Yes. Huh. All the guys that I had, 70 guys get that I got signed that weren't on contract with WWE. That's like the JTGs got about 10 years out of it. That's like Santino and he's. He's still around. That was like, what I call the she. Anyway, there's a bunch of guys, Serena Deeb, the Spirit Squad guys, Nick Nimit and stuff. I would just teach goddamn wrestling, was all I would do. And when I would have Matches. I would just have them against each other. I would just put the. Put the thing up. Right, Right. This is who's working so now. And at the time, they didn't have the phones, they had dipped it, the flip phones or whatever. Right. But I knew they was going to change it some way, if anybody had any. I put up a list and then we'd do more drills for two hours. Then I'd send the first guy to the ring and then I'd send somebody else because the other guys have been planning what they're going to do. Right. After about six times of doing this, they realize they couldn't. I would not let them. I'd tell them to switch, you know what I mean? Somebody else's music would play and then somebody else was. Would come out. They're going, holy. Pretty soon they started laughing. I was forcing them to get good. Forcing them to go on a goddamn fly. Then what happened when they get pulled up to the big boys, they didn't know how to do it. [02:42:48] Speaker D: Yeah. You say in your book, you say you got to have someone pushing you to be the best you can be. [02:42:52] Speaker C: Yes. [02:42:53] Speaker D: You can't mentally do it on your own. Coaches make you the best you can be and keep working, working. [02:42:58] Speaker B: And would I cuss? Yes. Would I call them girls name in the book? Yes. And I'm trying to get them jobs. And it. And it worked. Am I the bad guy? Yes, I am. Until you get signed and all of a sudden you're happier than I remember. JTG used to work at a. At the gym as a babysitter. When he come in from New York City and He was like 18 years old and he was with them over eight years and he said, and he said when they called him, he said he knew he shouldn't answer that. The mistake effect of picking up. And they fired him. [02:43:36] Speaker D: Well, there's, there's guys out there now that are running small little areas. You know, Bo James is running Tennessee and now he's opened up in Alabama. James beards down running Texas. And you know, there's a couple of spots here and there where guys. Do you think that now that the WWE is not. Or they're cutting back on their house shows, is that going to open things up for. For guys to work smaller areas again? [02:44:03] Speaker B: There's two ways of looking at it. [02:44:05] Speaker D: Okay. [02:44:06] Speaker B: Okay. One way is if you're not on tv, you're nothing. I'm going to save my money until I can go to Wrestlemania. I want to see the guys that are on TV that I know are projected as stars. I don't know who these other guys are. It's just. It's just how you look at it. And. And on. On my first. On my first book, in my second book, I didn't write one second of that. Caleb hall did. The guy I had in class, and then he added 40 more page or 80 more pages, whatever, and made the second. The second one. So all he did was he went through all my tweets through the years and then he categorized them. [02:44:49] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:44:50] Speaker B: Then he said. Then he said, hey, I made a book for you. And I said, well, hell, whatever it is, everything's fine. But you spelled my name wrong, so that's not a way to start. You know what I mean? [02:44:59] Speaker D: Yeah. What I mean, do you think. Do you think that we could ever get back where we were? [02:45:10] Speaker B: As Corny would say, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Right. [02:45:14] Speaker D: Right. [02:45:14] Speaker B: But then again, when I watched the first Rocky movie. Right. I know it's not real. I know it's a movie. And I'm getting goosebumps now and on my forearms, because I remember I'm standing and yelling for Rocky to make the comeback. And I know it's a goddamn movie. [02:45:33] Speaker D: That's right. [02:45:34] Speaker B: So we can suspend the disbelief or whatever, the big. The big sentences like that, if you're any good. It's like all these other matches are phony, but I'll make you believe mine's real, because I'm gonna sell is real. We're not gonna have. Nothing's going to be smooth. Smooth means it's phony. Everything's a struggle. You might take five minutes to get a hold. Finally, that works. The slam is not going to be perfect. The backdrops off to the side, because like a football team, you got. I know what you do offensively and defensively and vice versa. So I know you're going to be trying. I know you're going to hit that arm drag. No, I'm going to drop, toe hold you. Then you're going to stagger, and I'm going to hit the arm drag. I'm not going to do like they do today. Hit you with a tackle and immediately turn your back and hit the ropes because you got to do your. Your high spot in. Yeah. [02:46:34] Speaker D: There's going to be snap. They're going to be snaps over the quarterback's head. There's going to be fumbles. [02:46:38] Speaker B: Yes. [02:46:39] Speaker D: They're going to be. Kick kickers are going to miss the field goal, you know. [02:46:42] Speaker C: Yes. [02:46:43] Speaker B: And I want the home team to get the beat out of them. You wrestling in your hometown. I give of nothing holy. I'm buried. No, the next time before they thought you it was phony. And you're going to win now. You're going to sell and get the beat out of your way that. But at the end you're going to win. And now you're a God in your hometown even though you've played no sports in high school. [02:47:07] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a. It's a contest, right? [02:47:10] Speaker B: Yes, it's a contest in every contest. Look at the goddamn World Series or, or whatever. And then sometimes the home team gets its ass beat and sometimes they win just their home games, but you never know. And in every sport they. They've been ringers in the. The boxing wasn't real. They had the goddamn eight men out with major league baseball. They had the. The basketball point shaving with the goddamn University Kentucky and Adolph Rupp. Then they had all the football gimmicks. Anything that's betting or not betting, but hell, it goes back to abtel in the 20s doing that. [02:47:54] Speaker D: Right. Well, I'm sure there's like foundational things. So when you're training somebody, you're starting to teach them psychology. What's the first. What's the first couple of things they got to do or. [02:48:06] Speaker B: No, wait a minute. I got everybody always they gotta text me. I don't give a. What you say who it is. Leave me a loan. Leave me a loan. You're interrupting my goddamn show. I don't a give. Give a. About the. I don't watch all. Everybody wants to help me. I don't need your help. Now are you there or not? [02:48:30] Speaker D: Can you hear me? Yep. [02:48:31] Speaker B: Okay, now you're back. Okay. [02:48:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:48:33] Speaker B: And now. Now I was on the roll and I just want to be left alone when I'm doing. I've done these four or. Or how many in the last how many days? You know what I mean? [02:48:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:48:44] Speaker B: And you know how stressful that is. And each one's different. Different. [02:48:47] Speaker D: Right. [02:48:48] Speaker B: And I play different characters in each one and stuff. [02:48:51] Speaker D: So anyway, so you're training somebody and you're starting to teach them psychology. What's the first couple of things you want them to learn? [02:49:03] Speaker B: I'm trained. What I'm doing is I'm drilling them. I'm not telling them why I'm doing it. [02:49:09] Speaker D: Right, but what are. What are you. What are you drilling them on? [02:49:13] Speaker B: Everything in wrestling, punching, selling, registering heat on each goddamn body part. Dominating a spot with each Body part. Keep going back to the body part. But don't do it the same way because I'd be a idiot if I'm going to turn into a Ricky Steamboat arm drag three times in a row, drop toe, hold me or something, get me all balanced, spin me around and, and give me a wing over which is. [02:49:41] Speaker D: How long does it take somebody to figure that out? [02:49:45] Speaker B: No, I've never seen anybody besides me figure it out. I, I never have and I did and I was never trained. One thing I didn't have any. When you haven't been trained, you don't have any ideas. That's that shoved down your throat to begin with. Right. [02:50:00] Speaker D: Right. [02:50:00] Speaker B: I would say, oh, that did. That didn't work. That should have been better than that. [02:50:04] Speaker D: That. [02:50:05] Speaker B: It's like I watched that Steiner kid, whatever his name is, punching his arm how many times in a goddamn row. And WWE is. And I've always hated him since day one. Well, it's like Maven exposing the business on everything that once they started that tough enough they started exposing the business and, and to me I wanted to puke, die all the above. And they still keep doing that. Keep coming up with new. They're calling it something else. But they're always oh, we want to get the casual fan. Oh well we got. Oh, now they're having to go. How many NBA players are going. Tom Brady's gonna have a wrestling match. Right. [02:50:48] Speaker D: Right. [02:50:48] Speaker B: And then the, the big center on. I'm trying to think Anyway, all these wrestlers are wrestling wrestlers or different things. Things or different guys. And the wrestlers ain't worth a. And so these who are legitimate athletes now all of a sudden they're supposed to learn how to. So they're going in other words are going to memorize a scripted goddamn match. You right. Yeah, let's. Okay. The, the so called pros look like because it's goddamn scripted. Now you got a football player trying to be a baby face or whatever it is. And that's not. All of a sudden he's done this for. Oh, oh, he's worked eight weeks to do this. Well, great. Awesome. I. And I'm gonna play in the super bowl. But I never played quarterback before. Right. In eight weeks. So they're gonna. You're gonna sharpen me up. [02:51:42] Speaker D: Right? [02:51:42] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [02:51:43] Speaker D: Oh yeah. [02:51:43] Speaker B: So I hate all. So I hate all these. Am I mad all the time? Yeah. Because. Because that my business has been destroyed. It was never broken. [02:51:58] Speaker D: I could tell when Brian Blair and Ron Hutchinson told you you were getting the award I could tell you were moved by it. What. What does that mean to you? [02:52:10] Speaker B: Well, my peers chose me. [02:52:12] Speaker D: They did? [02:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's like Ron. Sensational, intelligent, mass thunderbolt. [02:52:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:52:21] Speaker B: He's got his book out and I could imitate him perfectly. We'd ride, make towns together. Like when he first got his license for Emile to pray, he was like 24 or 20, something like that. But he ran into the wall and I didn't put it over. I just thought he was ribbing me. And I told Emile, he says, holy, oh, no. Ron's blind. He can't see because he would have his mask on, but he would have his glasses on with the mask on because he couldn't fucking see. Not like Stan Hansen. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, he could. He was blind. But. But anyway, [02:53:00] Speaker D: that's coming up in Las Vegas at the Cauliflower Alley convention where you're going to get the Trainers Award. And, yeah. You're gonna have to get up in front of everybody and, and thank them and. And all of that, and so that'll be good. I wish I could be there. I'm not going to be able to be there, but I wish I could. I'm happy for you. [02:53:19] Speaker B: Well, it's going to. It's going to be. It's going to be fun. [02:53:22] Speaker D: I mean, I go back to the days of the ICW and the Phil golden and all that, so I. I know how long you. And how much you've put into it and what, what it means to you and all, which is why I wanted to talk with you today. [02:53:35] Speaker B: But it's just. It's just like. [02:53:38] Speaker D: And I. And I appreciate the fact that you're emotional about it because it's important. It's important to you. You. [02:53:44] Speaker B: Yeah, If. If I could. If I could. If I could have $10 million right now. But I had to work a regular job or whatever, and all I wanted to do was be a wrestler. But I got to do everything I wanted, even though I'm all up now. And I still. I'm jealous of anybody, any young guy, especially if they're fat. And I'm thinking, you lazy. You lazy. You ain't got enough discipline to go on a diet. Make yourself train, chase greatness and say, hey, look, I'm here. I want in. Help me. I'll work your. I work my ass off. And what usually gets in. Oh, well, we got to have a first and second. Oh, a third generation wrestler. Two. And they're. It's okay for them. See, I don't like that but the whole world operates that way anyway and I realize that but anyway I start, I start talking. I get mad about stuff so I'm trying not to get mad about stuff [02:54:53] Speaker D: so, so if guys want you to train them, what do they need to do? How do they get in touch with you? [02:54:59] Speaker B: Well, they're, I'm not going to train nobody no more. I'm too old. You know, I help, I help send Bodhi on Tuesday nights and future stars arresting with Joe DeFalco sins head coach I'm there if he. And I'm just there. I'm, I'm an assistant coach. Everything he says, he's the head coach. He'll ask me my opinion on something and I'll give it to him and, and that's it. I know my role but I don't want the, I don't want be responsible somebody. See before, before I got hurt I would be in there in the ring was what I would be doing or I would be up at the top of the building and I would have somebody else teach the class that I trusted because I needed to watch. The boys were wanting to hit on the girls and the girls were giggling with the guys and I wanted, I was teaching them together so I had, I would be yelling and cussing and make them do stuff because no, no, you, that's all you are, you know. Oh yeah, I called all the time so the first time I got fired but anyway I'm passionate about the wrestling business but I got to do what I wanted and I'm the most blessed guy in the world to, to live my dream. [02:56:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:56:24] Speaker B: And start starting out as the worst in the world. I tell everybody, they said hey, don't matter no matter how bad you are. I was worse than you when you, than you are when I started. But you can get better. But that's all up to you. [02:56:42] Speaker D: That's. [02:56:42] Speaker B: You can start your diet tomorrow, you can start doing your free squats and lunges and all this even if you don't go to the goddamn gym them you can do body weight exercises. You can do all this and then try and always get with the, with the veterans and pick their goddamn brain because you're trying. Because if a veteran wants to bury you to the promotion out of jealousy a lot of times because here's this young muscular, good looking kid and the veteran is older and they've seen his act for how many goddamn years? Then all he's got to do is tell the promoter, no he don't. He's got A bad attitude. Then all of a sudden everybody's think he's got a bad attitude. But you don't. Because, hey, this is a thing where you're trying to hold on for dear life to stay in the business, Right? [02:57:31] Speaker D: Yes. [02:57:31] Speaker B: Most of the guys, the wrestling business, they only know one trade and that was. And that was pro wrestling. So I met. I ain't mad at nobody, but this is a very, very, very tough, tough business. And you had to. [02:57:44] Speaker D: You probably know when somebody comes in, you probably know they can do it. You just don't know if they will do it. [02:57:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And I said, I want to sit back and watch their goddamn body language. So. But that's like any sport, any coach watching. Watching Robert Redford in the natural. Right, Right. You just don't know. I just know. I love this it. I've done more than ever. I thought I was. And it was never about the money. [02:58:15] Speaker D: Right. Never necessary. [02:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah. We. I had to eat something. I'd find a way to eat some way. Right now I got my dollar tree. I got another day's worth for dollar tree. And I. And if. If you're some. You know, and then you got guys making millions and millions of dollars now and they're not worth a. But that doesn't matter. When I was growing up, this is when everybody. In every sport before the Andy Messersmith decision, they was. There was no free agency. The baseball players, the basketball players, the football players, they'd usually use their name and they'd be a car salesman or they was some kind of salesman husband were having their name would meant something. But everybody had to get a job after the. After the season was over because you still had bills to pay. You had a family and you had no say if somebody traded you. Well, I got these four kids in school, they don't give a. And in wrestling, if you got hurt that about one or two. They would keep you around. Then they just get rid of. They had to somebody. They had to have. Bring somebody in to take. Take your place. But that. But I knew the rules. That's what it was coming in. [02:59:33] Speaker C: Right. [02:59:34] Speaker B: So you learn not to hurt anybody, not to do anything dangerous. When you're on a goddamn spot show, you get in, get out. I remember working match with Chris Benoit. I'd be going. We'd go 30 minutes and not. Not break a beat of sweat. He come in, I'm a professional. He go like that. Not a beat of sweat on me. I said, yeah, but the promoters, they'll. They'll want you to Work hard, harder. Because a lot of the promoters weren't the boys. You know what I mean? [03:00:01] Speaker D: Right. [03:00:02] Speaker B: So there's cats. Some stuff's good, sometimes bad. But you learned how to survive. [03:00:09] Speaker D: I'm glad you brought that up. Who did you enjoy working with the most? [03:00:13] Speaker B: The first. Well, I don't know the. The most because there's a different situation with everything. [03:00:18] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. But I mean, who did. Who did you think was really good? [03:00:22] Speaker B: Brad Armstrong was the best guy I ever worked out. Work in the ring for a first match. He did everything you're supposed to do. And I'm laughing and he won't say a word because he's supposed. He knows he's supposed to shut the up. So we would have stayed in top. We didn't really get a tie at. We're still tying up for five minutes, and we've got nothing in. There was one bump in the whole match, and I took a Russian leg sweep, a float over a. I did a re. One leapfrog bump. I had a reverse leapfrog, and I tried it again at the end after. I started to come back and. And stopped him, and he stopped on the dime. Give me the Russian leg sleep with the float over. And that was it. One, two, three. He said, I never done anything like that before. I said, you had fun, didn't you? Yeah, but I always thought he was the best guy first time in. You know what I mean? And what. What's funny? A lot of the guys, you. They're big stars and they're not worth a. [03:01:25] Speaker D: You mentioned Adrian. Did you like working with him? [03:01:27] Speaker B: Oh, I love working with. Goddamn, mate. Everyone was different. We never had no scripted. We just went out there and we played off each other. [03:01:34] Speaker D: And you worked with him for, like, how long? [03:01:37] Speaker B: 26. 26 weeks. [03:01:39] Speaker D: 26 weeks in a row in that little. Little Alabama territory? [03:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Huh. So I'm not mad at nobody. I enjoyed working my time with him and everything. [03:01:50] Speaker D: Yeah. Well, listen, man, thanks for your time today. Congratulations on the award from the Cauliflower Alley. I'm proud of you and I'm proud that you got it. You still do your show on Fridays? [03:02:03] Speaker B: I do every Friday at noon Eastern Standard Time, unless I got something else going. So I'll be Friday at noon, Eastern Standard time here on YouTube, right this week. And then. Then on Saturdays, I do the Pain Layer with Max Payne. [03:02:20] Speaker D: Oh, yeah, that's a new one. [03:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And I did My Money in the Pharaohs. I've been on there four times. [03:02:27] Speaker D: Yeah, so. [03:02:28] Speaker B: And then I did this One today. So, yeah, that was the. That was the fourth ones in five days or something like that. I just know I'm going 100 miles an hour and thinking too much. [03:02:41] Speaker D: Well, listen, man, I appreciate you taking the time and I want you to come back and we got a lot of things we can talk about, but congratulations on the award. It's well deserved and I'm proud for you. [03:02:52] Speaker B: Well, what I look at it, I say, well, I got to give it to somebody living. So I'm alive. [03:02:59] Speaker D: Yeah, that's right. [03:03:01] Speaker B: Anyway, thanks for having me on, Tony. Have a good day and then we'll talk. All right? [03:03:10] Speaker D: Wow, we. What a. What a conversation. The Hustler Rip Rogers right here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel history show. I can't wait for Rip to come back. I got a whole bunch more things I want for him and we will get him back on here after he's been out to Las Vegas and the Cauliflower Alley club reunion, the 60th anniversary of the Cauliflower Alley. Such a great organization, doing such great things for the wrestlers in the community that need their help. And I hope you are becoming a member or are a member. And if you get out there, tell everybody I said hi and it should be a great, great event. All right, that's our show this week. And thank you to Paige Sutherland for coming by and being with us. Thank you for the great Dan Murphy for coming by and being with us. And thank you for the student, stupendous, amazing, incredible hustler Rip Rogers for coming by and being on the show day. Don't forget Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Send out the daily Chronicle, the only Territory era newsletter that comes out every single morning at 5am Central, 6am Eastern. We put out a newsletter every single day and we got some great features in there and it's absolutely free. All you got to do is sign up, give us your email address. You have access to all of our content on the site for free subscribers. If you'd like to support my history work and you'd like to become a Premium subscriber, it's $5 a month and $50 a year if you want to save $10. And you get access to our premium features like Tracking the World Champions, the Evolution of Pro Wrestling Family Tradition, which is my series about the incredible families of the Territory era and a whole lot more. $5 a month, $50 a year and you become a premium member of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. Thanks for being here. Next week, Tim Deals, my good friend, will be back here. We'll be going back to the Tennessee territory. We got such great response from our first six months of 1976 in Tennessee. We're going to be doing that again. We're going to wrap up the year in 2H76 and the explosion of the UWA and the beginnings of the seeds that are planted for the Jarrett goulas split and a whole lot more as we get deep into 1976 in the territory of Tennessee. Also, Randy Hales, who was very involved in Jarrett Promotions and Memphis Wrestling. He was a commentator on WMC for the show. He was the ring announcer. He was a commentator out at the Mid South Coliseum. He traveled, he booked. He was the owner of Power Pro Wrestling after the Memphis promotion had closed down. And he is a wonderful, wonderful guy. He has me on his show talking Memphis wrestling a lot of Tuesday nights. I'm over there with that incredible crew of friends and Randy's going to be here and we're going to spend a little bit talking about him and we'll have a whole lot more on the show coming up here next week. Thanks everybody for joining. I hope you'll also check me out on Stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw. Episode 8 of the History of Texas Wrestling is coming out this week and that will be a jam packed wrestling history episode for you right there on Stories of Briscoe and Bradshaw. I'll see you back here next week on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. And remember, if you want better neighbors, be a better neighbor. Thank you everybody. So long. This is Tony Richards saying bye bye from the Richards Ranch at the Bluegrass State. [03:06:53] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Podcast. [03:06:57] Speaker D: Tune in for another great episode next [03:06:59] Speaker A: week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have been made the sport of professional wrestling. [03:07:06] Speaker B: Great. [03:07:07] Speaker A: We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.