Episode 77: 7 Stages of Territory Era, Stage 7 (1985-1995)

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things [00:00:06] Speaker A: to talk about and to do today. Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s. [00:00:13] Speaker B: It's the best thing going today. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream. Yeah, the cream of the crop. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And now, here's your host, Tony Richards. Well, greetings everyone from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky. I'm your host, Tony Richards, and welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. And we are on episode number 77 this week. And I'm happy to welcome in my good friend and colleague here at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, Steve. Genevieve. Steve, how are you doing tonight, man? [00:00:57] Speaker C: I'm doing well, Tony. It's great to be here with you. And you've come up with yet another very interesting topic for us. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, last week. First of all, I want to thank everybody for all the great comments and things that we received on The Dori Funk Jr. Tribute episode, which was the episode from last week. So many people have sent personal messages thanking me for that and that there's been a lot of great public comments. And on Saturday, we'd gotten to a particular number of downloads faster than we ever have before. So for a four hour show, a lot of people seem to really have enjoyed that. So it was a labor of love for me. [00:01:43] Speaker C: Well, it was a very detailed show. You had Larry Lane, Ted DiBiase, George Shire, Jerry Briscoe. I mean, what more can we ask for? All for free. It's great. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Well, one of the things, and it was a very emotional show too. So I thought this week maybe we cranked down from the. From the high emotion. So many people, it was such a personal thing to them. Not just the Dory Funk Jr. But just a member of the Funk family, which so many wrestling fans have connected with over the years. And you know, when anybody passes, especially one of your heroes, it's really personal and highly emotional. So this week on the show, I thought we'd pull back. But connecting us to that show is that you mentioned George Shire being on, and he and I went over one of my frameworks that I designed for measuring the Sam Mushnick NWA champions and got so much great feedback from that. I thought, okay, well, we were getting a lot of questions about the seven stages of the Territory Era framework that I designed that I thought you and I could spend a little time this week talking about that and helping people understand that framework a little bit Better. [00:03:03] Speaker C: It's a great idea. And I'm curious, Tony, you and I have talked about the seven different stations, if you will. How. How long ago did you come up with that? And was it easy for you to kind of come up with that, or did it take a lot of time and molding over the years? [00:03:23] Speaker A: Well, it's. It's a result of being a consultant. So in my consulting practice, when I would go in and I would work with a client or a company, and typically I would always. My clients would always be the ones that weren't doing very well. They maybe were doing well at one time, but then for whatever reason, they hit some hard times and they. Whatever they've tried so far hasn't worked to get them unstuck. And so they'd bring me in, I'd work with the CEO and his team on trying to figure out, how do we get this company growing again? And so in the process of that work, I started noticing and figuring out that there were certain time periods in a company's life that would cause it to grow and other times when it would cause it not to grow or to get stuck. And so I took that basic premise and applied it, because I always wondered. There's just sort of this. What am I trying to say? Ambiguous. Ambiguous. There's sort of this ambiguous, Hard to get your arms around. When the Territory era started, it just sort of seems to appear out of thin air, and everybody loves it, and everybody talks about it with great joy. Even those who didn't really experience it look on it on fond memories, but they don't really know where it came from or how it started. And then reading John Langmead's book Ballyhoo at the end of his book trails off. Just about the time I'm thinking the era is going to start, right? This is around 1925 or so. And so I started thinking, is that when it started? Is that when the seeds started being planted for it to come into existence? What did cause it to come into existence? What is it? How do you get your arms around it? And so my way of understanding things, whether it's a company's growth or whether it's sports teams rise and fall over the year, my way of understanding that is to build a framework around it so I could kind of understand the phases that it goes through so that it has these ebbs and flows. So that's basically where the framework came from. And so I started noticing that in the. In the fives, like in. So in 1985, things really changed in 1975. Things really changed in 1965. Things really changed all the way back to 1945, which was the end of World War II, where a lot of wrestlers came back from the military and there were not many wrestlers in the business because they were overseas or in the war or in the war effort here in the States. And so I just noticed that, wow, everything seems to like really, really gather and change around that five year mark of a ten year period. So that's why they run from like the fives to the next fives. And so today I thought you and I would spend some time at the end of the territory era and work our way backward to help people kind of understand the framework a little bit, at least in terms that they're familiar with and wrestlers and promotions they're familiar with and years they might be familiar with. [00:06:57] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And you know, and I just want to say this, I mean I think you actually have the framework for another book. I mean the one book I've always wanted to see written about wrestling is something similar to the Bill James historical Baseball Abstract. But I think your framework that you're talking about, you're definitely giving a great description of the beginning, the origin of the territorial system, the peak years, the territorial system, the demise of the territorial system, and now the only thing you need to do to make this as good as the Bill James abstract, you have to have different categories to weigh the wrestlers. You know, the impact of the wrestlers, whether they were a box office draw or if they're famous for their ring work or their technique or. But if we can incorporate a way to judge or value the wrestlers in there, I think you're going to have another best selling book along with your other books that are about to come out. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know if I can pull that together. I'm not a mathematician like, like some people, you know, I, I just, I'm not good at that part of the individual stats, but I, I am good at events. Like I've already identified in some of the stages, I've identified some of the catalysts that have created that era, that stage of the era. And I've already created some accelerators, things that sped it up and things that slowed it down and we can talk about some of those today. But boy, you're talking about climbing Mount Fuji to try to figure out the, the, the statistical end of it with all those wrestlers and everything. And it not, not a very exact science, professional wrestling so. And very sparse. We have more records now than we've ever had. But we still are sparse on some records. So. [00:09:04] Speaker C: Well, which of your categories would you like to discuss first? [00:09:08] Speaker A: Well, let's start at the end. So in, in my estimation. So it was. It was actually around 97 when the Memphis promotion stopped. But by 95 it was all but finished. And what finished it was of course the Monday Night Wars. Because, and this is a really important thing that you will see throughout several of the stages is the role technology plays in these stages. So by 1995 you were starting to have Monday Nitro on Monday night and Monday Night Raw on Monday night. So you've got two free television shows with all the big stars nationally on it. It's going to be difficult to bring people to the Monday night show at the Mid South Coliseum. So they are going to have to have trouble draw, which they did, which basically was the end. It's funny how wrestling can put wrestling out of business, right? And so that was the demise of that. So that stage, stage seven, that's the final stage of the Territory era. And I've named it Disintegration. Because that is the stage where the territories began to disintegrate. And it goes back to 1985. So from 1985 to 1995, what sorts of thoughts do you have about that 10 year period at the end of the Territory era? [00:10:41] Speaker C: Well, obviously, obviously you're seeing the two major, major promotions. WWF and NWA or Jim Crockett, which eventually becomes wcw. They're really becoming the dominant promotions. And older promotions that had success like the AWA and Mid south and World Class. They're either, you know, changing names or barely hanging on or about to drop out. And it's very interesting because you know, some of the stuff that us as fans, we took for granted, like, you know, we'll just use the WWF as an example. Starting in the early to mid-70s, those MSG house shows were on HBO and then they eventually filtered over to MSG Network and to USA Cable Network. And we were seeing those shows either live or on tape at times. And I know the fans in Philly were getting Prism and they were getting like the, the live or tape delay of the Spectrum shows. And in 85 they're showing Boston Garden shows. And eventually the. There's a Z Channel in LA that's running WWF house shows from the sports arena. So the WWF really just expanding their reach and really drowning the market with their product. And it's becoming so second nature for all that product to be out there. And they oversaturated their own markets so much that I think after a while they decided that their own business, their own house show business was starting to dry up. Probably because all this free stuff was being given away. These house show matches and you know, and again these poor smaller promotions like the Portlands of the World and the Memphis of the World, how can they compete on a, on a weekly basis like they used to when you're seeing these free major shows appearing or the, or the big groups having their big now monthly pay per views? It's just hard for a local promoter like a Portland or a Memphis to put on an exciting show that looks like it's the most important thing in the world when these big outfits are having these big events, big glamorous events with these really well regarded, well known stars. [00:13:10] Speaker A: So let's just talk in absolutes the answer to your question. How can they compete? They can't, right? Reggae can't. And that was, and that's one of the key elements involved in this stage of the territory era from 1985 to 1995, stage seven, that, that caused that. You know, one of the ways, one of the reasons I like looking at the whole thing this way is it really depersonalizes it, right? Because fans, they want to personalize it and they want to blame someone and they want to blame someone specific for it and that's fine. Do fan however you want to fan. You know, that's okay with me. But the fact of the matter is that in 1985 someone was going to do this. Someone. And if it wouldn't have been Vince, it would have been someone now. Now think about it this way. If you were in the wrestling business and your promotional business dated back to the 20s or 30s or ever, how far back Jess McMahon went, if you, if your business dated back that far and you were the third generation that was part of it and you had gone into debt and bought this promotion and you, it was on your shoulders to make it go and you realized that someone was going to take advantage of this. Wouldn't you have wanted it to be you? [00:14:51] Speaker C: Sure. [00:14:52] Speaker A: I mean, because it's your business. Because if you don't do it, someone else is going to do it and you're going to go the way of these other people. Now human nature is an interesting thing when it comes down to it's me or the other guy, right? You know, Lord of the Flies I think proved that, you know, where you're on an island with a whole bunch of other, you know, kids and it's survival of the fittest and that's. That part of that is just the reality of business. And Jim Crockett saw it late. He was late to seeing it. He was a little slow to pick up on it, but once he saw it, he started trying to go for it. Bill Watts saw it early on. Even when he was a partner in Georgia, he saw it. Jack and Jerry Briscoe saw it. They couldn't get Jim Barnett on the page to do anything about it. They were able to expand into Michigan and Ohio at the end of the previous stage, Stage six, but no further, because they were so. They held these NWA boundaries and territories in such high regard. They had the tool to do it with tbs, because, again, look at the technology. The technology is making it so you have to make these business decisions. It's not like you. It's not like you could choose not to participate. If you were in the business, you were going to. You were a participant. Now the question is, what are you going to do with the resources you have available in order to stay in business? Now, should. Should Crockett have not expanded as much as he did, and should he have laid back a little bit and fell back into a defensive position? Well, he could have, but then the territory he was defending, was he going to have the ability to continue to defend that much territory, or would it have gotten smaller and smaller? And when you're in a defensive position, the area around you always seems to shrink because you have the person who's being aggressive and on the offense, they're going to slowly but surely eat in. And yeah, it wouldn't have been Charlotte and Greensboro, but on the periphery. Periphery, you might have lost St. Louis. You probably would have lost maybe Atlanta, because Crockett didn't draw as well in Atlanta as Georgia Championship wrestling did. Vince could have possibly got in there and. And it would have been a little bit of a battle for a while, but he had the resources for a longer conflict. So he could have waited it out. Well, what would have Crockett done? Well, once you decide to hold your position and pull back, that's your position from now on. [00:17:54] Speaker C: Right? [00:17:55] Speaker A: So then the decision would have been, well, let him have Atlanta. Let's pull back. Well, you keep pulling back until what do you have? You know, you just got a little circle around yourself. So he just. So instead of doing that, he decided to go for it, which he's been criticized for going for it. And I don't know if it was the right decision or not. All I know is that's what happened. [00:18:18] Speaker C: Right? Well, I think one of the advantages Vince had was Vince wanted to expand all over the nation, all over North America and beyond. And at least in his favor. He had people like a Jerry Briscoe who was very familiar with the promoters or the building and managers in the South. So it wasn't like he was going into the south, you know, unarmed. He had someone who knew the business, the, the arena managers. He. He knew what to expect. He had Red Bastine doing the same thing on the West Coast. So I felt bad for, you know. And you're looking at Crockett trying to do the same thing. He's trying to run the LA Forum or, you know, go out west and, and run all these new markets. But I don't think he has those advanced people doing the same thing that Vincent's people are doing. And he didn't have a Jim Barnett and he didn't have George Scott. He didn't have the infrastructure of people that were working on merchandising and financing and all the other stuff that you have to do. I mean, to even look back on it now and expect a different outcome is just really hard to do to poor Crockett and his team because he didn't have the resources that Vince had. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Well, his accountant, he even got blamed for it. The accountant got blamed. Well, the accountant's not. He's just figuring up the numbers. It's not up to him to have financial oversight and management and control of those things. He's just reporting what's coming in and what's going out. You here, here's a good thing that really opened my eyes probably in the last year is in 1986. So this is, this is the second year into this stage. Seven disintegration starts in 1985. Crockett goes on television on TBS in April. What other big event happened in April of 85? [00:20:23] Speaker C: Well, that was the first WrestleMania. Right, well, WrestleMania, yeah. March 31st or 27th, March, I think. But. But yeah, that happens. And then they get on NBC shortly thereafter. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's in April of 85. So Crockett decides I'm going to. I'm going to make a push. So he pays $1 million to Vince for the television contract to TBS and he negotiates a deal with Ted Turner that he is going to be the only exclusive pro wrestling, which I thought that was pretty smart on Jim's part. That way Vince can't come back in or. And it also unfortunately gets rid of Watts Mid South Wrestling. But he's going to be the only Exclusive pro wrestling that can be shown on WTBS for five years. Well, so he pays the million dollars and he decides he's going to go for it. He's going to use TBS as the technology accelerator for to fight this world or this nationwide battle. 1986 was the best year Jim Crockett Promotions ever had in professional Wrestling. They did $21 million gross in house shows and in whatever other ancillary type things they did to help bring revenue into the company. $21 million. Now that was disclosed in, in a court document where Jim was brought into deposition on paying some talent fees or something. So we know that that figure is accurate. Brad Belugian, who wrote the six pack book, he got the financial records of the WWF for 1986. Now, when I was a wrestling fan and I was just watching the two products and I was watching this war unfold, my pers. I went to three Great American Bash shows in 1986. I went to Memphis, Greensboro and Charlotte. It broke my heart the other day. Brian Solomon and Howard Baum is on there down in Dusty's NWA title win in 1986. And that's the only one I got to go see. So it had to be a good one. Guys, you're hurting my fan memory there. But anyway, so as a fan, I'm thinking this war is really close. I mean, Crockett and McMahon are going back and forth and this is a competitive battle. And boy, when Magnum TA had his car accident, that tipped the scales and that helped Vince win the war. It took out Magnum and that messed up Dusty's booking for the next two years, which, that's all true, but in 1986, the WWF made $75 million. [00:23:16] Speaker C: Wow. [00:23:18] Speaker A: And Crockett made 21. Now, I went to school in Kentucky. I don't know where our. Everybody went to school that are watching us, but 75 is a lot bigger than 21. Yes, it's 2. 2 times, 3 times bigger than 21 million. So Vince had this machine. Now, what Vince was doing, Crockett, a lot of people, if you've been to business class or whatever in school or whatever, you'll. You'll get this. But Crockett was investing in assets, in other words, things that were going to cost him money. McMahon was investing in things that were going to help give him a return on investment. He continued to hire better people. He continued to invest in his production. He continued to invest in bigger, bigger shows for WrestleMania and those kinds of things. And Crockett was investing in travel costs and a Lot of things like that, which we don't get into that too much. But it wasn't like their capital reinvestment was. I mean, Vince was just a whole lot savvier. I mean he was just a whole lot better CEO than Jim Crockett. And I don't know where you, I like this conversation. I don't know where we want to take it, but this is where this era, this stage, this 1985, 1986, this is how this is starting now. By the time this 10 year period is half over, Crockett's gone, Watts is gone, Von Erichs are gone. Who else is gone? I guess Portland might still be on live support there. 89. They had a pretty good year. Yeah, go ahead. [00:25:10] Speaker C: Vernon was gone by 90. So. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, and, and Crockett had, Crockett had. They didn't really buy the, the territory. They, they bought the television syndication for UWF and Kansas City and for Florida. That's what they were buying. They were buying the ability to do use their television network. [00:25:35] Speaker C: Right. [00:25:35] Speaker A: Because there weren't any assets to buy. You know, when you buy a wrestling promotion, what do you get for it? You know, just maybe a couple, maybe an old broken down truck or something and maybe maybe a building or two, which is a real estate asset that you know, at that point had aged out. So in a five year period, out of the ten year period, the story was told. And then after 1990, then in the second half of this ten year period, what happens? WWF starts to sputter. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:12] Speaker A: And so after all the competition is gone, then the WWF starts to sputter and they do that Saudi Arabian Iraqi angle with Sergeant Slaughter and all of that and they really, character wise, everybody has a job, you know, everybody's a. Yes, some kind of. [00:26:32] Speaker C: Everybody has job before their name. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that, that and then the other thing you have happen and you have this in other stages of the territory era too, where at the, at the, either at 1980 or 1970 or 1990, you have others like pop up for a little while, but they're gone by the time the stage is over. So in 1992 you have smoky Mountain that pops up. Then you have, you have ECW that pops up. But by the end of the stage, by 1995, they're gone. Because the thing is, and I love Jim for trying to do it. He was trying to preserve his favorite wrestling and. Sure, and then my favorite wrestling too. I used to trade for those Smoky Mountain tapes because there was nothing to watch on television wrestling Wise. Right. But you can't recreate something and keep something going on an underpinning of momentum that's not there. Right, so. [00:27:39] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:40] Speaker A: So for those that are watching on video, you can see my hand, but audio you can't. But I'm doing like an S curve. Like, it's like this. So when you're topping the hill in 1990 and you're starting to go down, that is not a good time to start something. Now that's easier to see in hindsight than it is foresight, of course. But, you know, for people who want the territories back, it's almost impossible to build something just like that. [00:28:12] Speaker C: Now. [00:28:12] Speaker A: You could build something different. And there are people out there that are building things different now that are running small areas and small towns, not the big expansive territories that we used to have and the multiple television stations and the multiple markets, but just like a three to four to five town market, or maybe even just a one town market. There's people that are doing that, and I think they're doing pretty well. But you got to be careful about how you, you know, it's a human nature to want to expand. [00:28:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, we, we always, you know, kind of feel sorry for Vern Gagnia in his plight, because he had a very, very, you know, successful promotion in the AWA. But I'll tell you this, in 1969, he tried to run LA. So all this talk about Vince McMahon being the renegade and trying to go national. Verne tried it in LA in 1969, and he ran a big show in Los Angeles that was a bit of a flop. I think he had Dick the Bruiser in the main event, and the local promotion knew that they were coming and they put up a very strong show and they did better than the rival promotion. And then along the way, in the 70s, you had the IWA, you had Jim Crockett Sr. Tried to run with Antonina Rocca in New York, like maybe 1965. So you had these instances of people trying to create these renegade promotions like the Eddie Einhorn and the iwa. And so these were not like your traditional territories, but these were groups who were trying to gain a hold. And to become national promotions is kind of out of the blue. [00:30:00] Speaker A: I had somebody contacted me earlier this year from the west coast, and I. I just never really thought too much about it. But, you know, in 1980, so. And so 1981 or two or somewhere around in there, Verne tried to do that again in San Francisco. Yes, very same thing. And he only Lasts like two or three months. And the, at that point what happened was the WWF came in and. [00:30:25] Speaker C: That's right, that's right, yeah, yeah. They say that, that Vince came in and bought their TV time and took over and, but they were trying to do the exact same thing. They were trying to run. They knew that Roy Shires was shut down, closed down and they wanted to bring the AWA to those markets. And I mean, just Vince had deeper pockets and plus Vince was in the course, the media capital of the world, New York, and he knew how to market his product. And I mean, like the AWA has. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Steve, if I do it, it's okay. I'm not one of these invader type people, you know. [00:31:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:07] Speaker A: It's, it's, it's, it's amazing. But isn't it a fascinating thing that we get to sit and discuss this? I mean it's, it's a wonderful, wonderful way to spend time is to analyze and think about the way these things happen and try to put them into a scientific or a non emotional context. Because when you get it, when you get emotional, you don't see it the way it is. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:35] Speaker C: And we've had enough time away from the actual events, you know, 30, 40 years to look back on it with a cool head, not to be emotional or upset. And you know, it's a very, very interesting, very fascinating story that never gets old. I mean, the story of the territories and why certain ones succeeded, why ones dropped out earlier than others. It's just a fascinating story to me. [00:32:02] Speaker A: And yeah, I mean, it depends on your perspective, you know, it depends on, you know, if one person, it's like that old Funks and Briscoes thing, you know, the Funks go into Florida and they're the heels. Briscoes go into Texas and they're the heels, you know, and they don't do anything different. It's just the way the fans see them. And I think for some people who were big WWF fans, Vince basically created wrestling, you know, and for those who were fans of a particular area of the country where they had local regional wrestling, Vince killed the territory. So I mean, it just kind of depends on, you know, what your perspective is. But take my word for it, it was going to happen and someone was going to do it and the amount of courage and fortitude that it took for him to take the chance and I guess the way he kind of looked at it was if I just sit here, my business is going to die. If I go for it, my business could Die and I could fail or I could succeed. So I've got a better chance going for it than I do sitting here. [00:33:20] Speaker C: Well, you and I had recently done that big show about the Ali Inoki and Shea Stadium and Bruno and Hanson and I mean, even then Vince wasn't the owner, he was just the announcer. He was the son of the promoter. But he was looking for new avenues, new avenues of revenue, new ways to promote. I think he knew that his father was probably the best of all the promoters and, and his father had this incredible formula that just seemed unstoppable. I mean, he had the baby face champion, Bruno, he had the three heel managers. He could bring in a new heel to face Bruno and it would sell out every time. I mean, it was just, just an unbeatable process. So Vince is thinking in his head, when I get to be the promoter, I'm going to do this, but I'm going to do this on a national stage. I'll be running shows, three shows a night, all over the country. I'll be bringing all this revenue in. And of course, Hogan was there waiting for him when it was that time. You know, Hogan was the perfect person to, to run and do this with because he was a, he was a really a good wrestler for a man of his size. He was very marketable. And then of course, all the people he brought in to be opponents, the Orange dwarves, the Pipers, they were just a great perfect match to have to be marketable heels. [00:34:39] Speaker A: I'll just throw this in and then we'll back up another 10 years here today. But we've had 30 years since the Territory era disintegrated. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:52] Speaker A: So if you back up a little bit, you can see this same thing still going like 95 to 2005, 2005 to 2015. 2015 to 2025. In 2025, another on the 5 deal, we started moving to global expansion. So for those of us who live long enough to be unsettled by the national expansion, you're seeing another major shift. I don't know, I won't live long enough, I guess, to see the universal expansion wrestling on Mars or Venus or whatever. But isn't that interesting that because of technology, I mean, you know, in 1985, cable and satellite, satellite was kind of a figure, a technology accelerator in the Stage six, but in Stage seven, it was cable, where fans outside of geographic areas and across the country could see Wrestling. In 2025, it's streaming television, where it's [00:36:04] Speaker B: global [00:36:06] Speaker A: wrestling fans all over the world can see Professional wrestling. And we can sit and debate and talk about and argue and complain about whose global wrestling they see. But I just think it's wonderful that fans can see it. [00:36:22] Speaker B: Right? [00:36:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it's because of the technology. It is a very important time in the wrestling business. I mean, wrestling is truly valued, is. Is a product and, and the, the number of eyes and the number of people who watch it and, and it just. Wrestling is a great product to be marketed, but you have, you know, again, these two juggernaut companies, WWE and AEW, and then you have smaller companies like your TNAs that are out there and other companies. I mean, they're all vying for that spot or that piece of the pie. And it just is. It's just. It's a different thing. I mean, I mean, you're still seeing great matches. You're still seeing some of the stuff that we're familiar with from the territory days as far as, you know, the angles and sometimes managers and some things. But the wrestling as it is today is so, so very different. But it is for the, for the younger fans, it's. It's just as important as the way wrestling was for us when we were kids. [00:37:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Pretty fascinating. And we live in a. I never want to go backward. I mean, as much as I enjoy going back and reliving the memories and enjoying the history, I never want to go back to not having Internet. I never want to go back to not having cell phones. I never want to go back to, you know, previous technology versions. Just to be able to have things the way they were before. I never want that trade off. I'm always happy and excited to be living in the time that I'm living in. [00:38:13] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Stage six is 1975 to 1985. I think the major catalyst here is Sam Muchnick retiring as NWA president. I think the lack of a succession plan for the NWA Fritz was the President in 76. He did, you know, I mean, nothing really happened. Terry Funk, he was the deciding vote in Terry Funk getting the NWA title. And he just also just so happened to have a big Texas stadium show that year with he and Terry Funk in the main event, which might have caused him to vote for Terry. He might have thought he and Terry would draw better in Texas than him and Harley. Is that plausible? He might have thought that that makes sense. That could have crossed his mind maybe, you know, as a promoter. And then in 76, which just actually 50 years ago, as we were doing this show, the NWA convention, Eddie Graham is elected President of the National Wrestling Alliance. And Eddie did a pretty good job in 76 and 77. He had to give up the presidency because of what was called health problems at the time. Now we know it was more personal issues that he had a problem with alcoholism and he had gotten off of that earlier. And that had caused his great growth in Florida and his sharpness as a businessman. But that had come back to plague him in the late 70s, which was the beginning of the end of Florida and also the beginning of the end of the National Wrestling alliance. Because we didn't have anybody from then on, it was either Jim Crockett Jr. Or Bob Geigel. Those were our two choices for the National Wrestling alliance. And nothing against either guy, but neither one was really that great with their own local company, let alone running a national interest or worldwide interest, I should say, like the nwa. [00:40:26] Speaker C: Well, Sam Mushnick was just such the perfect person because he was this almost grandfatherly type figure who kept this cooperative of promoters in check. And he knew how to kind of manage them and push them and guide them and give them direction and try to hold it all together and make everything work. After he left, I think the promoters that ran it, like the Fritz's and the Eddie Graham's and like you said, Bob Geigel, they were either not sophisticated enough to know what to do, or they were maybe too selfish, you know, maybe wanting to put the focus on their territory or their stars. But there was never. They could never replace Sam Mushnick. And that's maybe, maybe we shouldn't blame anybody because that was such an important job or position that he filled and he was the only one qualified to really do that job. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Well, I think to give it further context to what you're saying, from the time he came back. So he came back as president in 1963. He had about a two year hiatus there. From 1963 to 1975. The way the National Wrestling alliance was run and the way St. Louis, they were congruent. [00:41:42] Speaker C: Okay? [00:41:44] Speaker A: The St. Louis market, wrestling market was run exactly the same way as the National Wrestling Alliance. The same standards that he applied to the St. Louis markets were the standards applied to the NWA. Now, just to give you some idea here of what I'm talking about, when he went out, let's say the same standards that applied to running the Dallas wrestling promotion applied to the nwa. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:10] Speaker A: You see the difference? You see the difference? Well, not necessarily bad, but not as high and not as clear and not as firm. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Yeah. The way Mushnik promoted St. Louis was like, promote it like a sport, and it has so much integrity, and it really elevated pro wrestling in a way that no other territory really did. I mean, I'm not saying that pro wrestling was revered in St. Louis like it was in Japan. No. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Oh, it was. Oh, it was. [00:42:45] Speaker C: It was. [00:42:46] Speaker B: Oh. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Oh, it was. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Oh, I think. [00:42:49] Speaker C: I think Darla Skaggs can confirm that. Right? [00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I could too. I mean, I lived just a couple hours outside of St. Louis. I mean. I mean, it was. I mean, it was right up there with legitimate sport. [00:43:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, St. Louis Cardinals, St. Louis Blues, Pro wrestling. I mean, it was all kind of. I mean, 1969, I think it was. They ran a show in Bush Stadium. It was. It was. He. He had a different, more credible audience, not product audience, than anyone that anyone else in wrestling. I mean, the fans understood and expected a certain thing, and he never failed to deliver and he never cheated them or got away from it. [00:43:37] Speaker C: Right. [00:43:37] Speaker A: And that was not the case in every other promotion because you. Part of it was because he ran twice a month. He wasn't running every week. So he didn't have to come up with some of the interesting things you would have to come up with to keep people coming back every single week. You know, he could be a little more selective about the things that he did. [00:43:58] Speaker C: I think he respected his audience and he didn't have contempt for his audience like some of the other promoters thought that they were just dumb marks. [00:44:06] Speaker A: Yes. And they'll never know. They won't remember not to insult our championship from wrestling. Championship wrestling from Florida audience. I mean, we do a lot of Florida shows here, and I think everybody knows how much I appreciate and respect it. But if you apply the same rules and standards that were championship wrestling from Florida to the NWA, it still isn't as high as St. Louis because Eddie. Eddie did some finishes that were questionable. And in the business, they call it kabuki ish. They were, you know, not. Not. Sam would not do it. Jack. I think Jerry mentioned in the show last week, which I'd never heard him say this before, that Jack got away with a few finishes in that last year of his title run that he wouldn't have been able to get because Sam was just kind of checked out and Jack just sat tired and didn't want to fight it and just went with whatever. Whatever happened, you know, Whereas in the past it would just not know. We're either going to an hour or we're going to get some kind of DQ or Something. But more than likely, we're going to draw an hour draw every night, or the champions going to win clean. No, no doubt about it. So that means the local babyface is going to get beat. Which, if you think about it in logical terms, if you're the local regional champion and you're wrestling the world champion, who should win that match, by most cases, it should be the world champion should win because he's the world champion, right? Unless there are extenuating circumstances, and bam, you see a title change, which you didn't see very often, which, going back to, I only saw one, it was in Greensboro. So, I mean, so again, when you take the guy and you put him in charge of the nwa, you are putting that person's thinking in charge of the nwa, right? And the thinking, then what do you. Then you got Bob Geigel. So the same standards and rules that Bob Geigel ran Kansas City by was the same rules the NWA was run by, Right? Which in Ric Flair's book, you know, he says, you know, many times he called the office from the road and Geigel's like, well, I don't know what to do about it. And Flair's like, you'll never believe what they're wanting me to do over here in so and so territory. And Geigo's like, well, do the best you can. Whatever, you know, not, Not a Sam Mushnick phone call. [00:46:47] Speaker C: Definitely not. [00:46:48] Speaker A: Sam would go, put him on the phone. [00:46:53] Speaker C: And again, I know you've been doing a lot of stuff with the nwa. I mean, the, the AWA and the old wwwf. Their style of promotion was, I think, different in the sense of, I think that they weren't as heavily concentrated on getting, like tons and tons of heat. I think that their, their concentration of promoting was more like in the wwf. I mean, it was. Was just, you know, these big, big, big matches with Bruno and his opponents or having a tag team feud or, or in the awa, you know, people chasing Bachwinkle. But I think that the NWA Southern territories especially, there was so much more blood and so much more action and intensity and hatred and these really life and death issues. I think in the AWA and the wwwf, it more catered to. Almost like going to see the Ringling Brothers Circus. You're seeing the larger than life Andre the Giant. You're seeing these things you can never see anywhere else, these spectacles. And, and that was. That was how they promoted and how they survived all those years. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Well, to further complicate it, or hopefully maybe Simplify it. The wwwf, which then became the wwf, they took the W out. I don't remember what year that was, but 79. Okay, you would know. They took the W out in 79. It was a booking office and a collection of town promoters. So you had a booking office in. First it was in Washington, D.C. then it moved to New York City, but it had a promoter in Philadelphia. It had one in Boston, it had one in Portland, Maine. It had one in all of these different towns. AWA is the same. AWA had a booking office in Minneapolis, and it had town promoters in Denver and in Moline, Illinois and in Omaha, Nebraska. The National Wrestling alliance was a collection of booking offices that also had promoters. So in the nwa, you had three levels. You had booking office members and then you had all these town promoters underneath the booking offices, where the WWF was just a booking office and promoters, and the AWA was a booking office and promoters. So it added an entirely bigger level of complexity to it, where you didn't just have to satisfy the booking offices, the booking offices had to satisfy the promoters. So if they didn't get the champion or the matches that they wanted so that they could draw money, they were complaining. Whereas the WWF and the AWA controlled their own fate a little bit more because they were the booking office and they did control the talent. The. The NWA was just basically a booking office that controlled the champion for the booking offices. So just make it a little more complicated. But they got. [00:50:14] Speaker C: For Jim Burnett, sending the champion out on all his dates. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It. Honestly, Barnett, I think. I think it became a little bit better for the members. Maybe when Barnett was booking the champion, he was a little more sympathetic to the promoter, where, you know, Sam was very firm. Although Sam, you know, the whole NWA was formed. It's funny, the whole NWA was formed so smaller towns would get a world champion. The, the larger towns like the Saint Louis's, the Los Angeles's, the. I mean, I mean, the really large town, the top 15 markets in the United States were getting the world champion, but the Des Moines were not, the Omaha's were not, the Kansas City's were not. And so they got together and said, we need our own world champion because we're never going to get the National Wrestling association champion. We're not getting enough dates, we're not being able to draw crowds and having world title matches. We need our own world champion. So it was interesting that I think Jim Landos was the model for the NWA champion, because when he was the world champion, just world champion he went to all the towns he went to big ones, small ones, medium ones, all of them. And then it was only ironic that when Lou Thes got the NWA title, he didn't want to go to the small ones, you know, he wanted to go the big ones, which was, which makes sense because he was a National Wrestling association champion first, which only went to the big towns. But when he had to go to the, what was called the tank towns, he didn't like that because of the payoffs were smaller, the crowds were smaller, the travel was more difficult, you know. But that's the whole reason the NWA was founded. Very 75 to 85, you have this period that I call fragmentation. And the fragmentation stage, Stage six is when we started losing booking offices. We lost Amarillo, we lost Los Angeles, we lost San Francisco. But then in 1980 we got ICW in Kentucky. But 1985, at the end of that particular stage, it was gone. So it had a five to six year run, which again, they started on the downhill slide of a stage. If you're going to start something, you need to start it on the uphill part of the stage, if you know they have the better chances of success. So 75 to 80 looks nothing like 80 to 85 that whole 10 year period. [00:52:58] Speaker C: Well, we also have Detroit dropping out about 1980, and I think partly because of the Sheik's promotion going away. I think that was one of the reasons why it became that whole area, Detroit, Toronto, and that whole area became such a hotbed for the WWF in that expansion era. 84, 85, 86, 87. Because they hadn't had a major promoter in that area. [00:53:27] Speaker A: And yeah, and that's a good point. And we won't go into a whole lot of it today, but people, when they've heard me talk about this seven stages of the Territory era, I've always said stage five is the strongest, you know, 1965 to 1975. And the sheik was a beneficiary of that 10 year period from 1965 to 1975, he had probably one of the hottest territories in the world. But at the end of that 10 year period in 1974, it started sputtering because I mean, and I think this is the interesting lesson and we'll kind of start to wrap up on this. But this is kind of the interesting lesson on all this is everything has a lifetime cycle, everything. We're just as human beings, we're just creatures that need new stuff. We need something different, we need something new. The psychologists call it the hedonic adaptation. We get so accustomed to whatever is familiar that we need a burst of something different and something new every now and then. Best I can tell, it's around seven years where we have to have something, something to come in that's different. And you can see the entertainment business not just with wrestling, but just all entertainment, movies and music and all of these things that are designed to entertain us as human beings go in these same cycles and the periods where everything sounds the same and is dull and boring, those are the roughest because they're always lagging behind. Because you get on this roll of thinking, well, this is what works. We have found the formula. It's hard rock, it's hard guitar based rock and roll. That's what works. And that's what we're going to hang our hat on. Well, they're not making any new Sweet Home Alabamas. I don't know if you notice or not, but I mean, and I still enjoy it just like I enjoy a 1976 Jack Briscoe match. But there aren't making any new ones. It was, it was a entertainment piece for its time period and for the people that lived during that time and for people in future generations to enjoy in smaller quantities than the people who enjoyed it originally. [00:56:02] Speaker C: And that I will say this, and I think you were kind of referring to the Sheik. I mean the Sheik did have the same act for this long, long period of time. And what you're basically saying is that over that long period of time, him being a draw and him being a big box office guy, he's not being that. But I will say this, you made an excellent point. The wrestlers that were able to kind of reinvent themselves, I think, I mean, I mean we could say Bruno did in the sense of in the 60s, he was this big powerhouse guy, balding. And he reemerges in the, in the early to mid-70s with more hair and less body weight. The body mass, he slims down, he gets kind of a different look. I mean, the wrestlers of the 80s, the wrestlers like Hogan, Piper and Savage, by the time they're wrestling for WCW in the late 90s, they all have completely different looks. Hogan went from the yellow and gold to the NWO look. He's like a completely different person. Randy Savage, you know, at the end of his WCW run, he has these long hair extensions and his hair is slicked back and he's wearing a completely different ring gear. I think the wrestlers that were able to kind of reinvent themselves in some way Kind of reinvented themselves and kept their act alive and continue to be box office draws. But that's easier said than done in many cases. [00:57:36] Speaker A: Yeah, the sheik never, never did that. And, and when it came time for him to, for logic just to take over, he, he would just wouldn't do it. I mean, he, logically, he was not supposed to beat Andre, you know. [00:57:52] Speaker C: Right. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Andre should have beaten him or at least gotten a pretty rough dq. But yeah, I think you're exactly right. I mean, gosh, the greatest example, that's Terry Funk. I mean, yes. You know, from 1965 until just 10 years ago, he was still working, you know, and gosh, I, I wish he wouldn't have, you know, several times because I think he paid, you know, a terrible price for it those last couple of years that he was alive. But from conceptual standpoint, he did a great job of reinventing himself. [00:58:28] Speaker C: Yes. [00:58:30] Speaker A: Well then this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me for it. We'll do more of the, we'll follow up on these and dig a little deeper into some of these things. And I just wanted to spend a little bit of time on it. Essentially it's a 10 year, it's seven 10 year periods. So essentially it's encapsulating the territory era in 70 year period from 1925 to 1995 and breaking it apart in a way that's easier to understand than trying to take the whole. Eat the whole elephant with one bite. You know, it's Tony. [00:59:06] Speaker C: I've enjoyed talking about with you too, and I think that we have to give you a new moniker. Maybe you're the Bill James of wrestling. [00:59:15] Speaker A: I don't know if I'd go that far. [00:59:16] Speaker C: Maybe because you're the first person I know of who has been able to kind of chronicle or designate certain time periods of wrestling. And the way you have in your different set, the seven areas or the seven chapters of the territory history. I mean, whether you want to take all the time to put that book together or not, I mean, that's something for another day. But I've loved talking about this with you. I never get tired of talking about it. It's one of my favorite topics. [00:59:48] Speaker A: Well, I. Steve, listen, I'm the blessed, most blessed guy there is. I mean, I've got, I've got you, I've got George Shire, I've got Greg Klein, I've got Tim Deals, I've got Steve Varier, I've got Michael Norris, Bobby Simmons, Roy Lucier is just. Come on Board Roy Lucier just come on to talk about Mexican wrestling, where he's going to be on the show pretty soon. I've got our great Canadian people, Wes Maidment and Ross Hart and gosh, I got Bruce Owens and Howard Baum and Don deleon and Sean Delaney. There's just so many guys that are a part of this whole Pro Wrestling Time tunnel thing that, I mean, I learned something from each one of you every time we have a conversation. And I. I just am smart enough to write it down and try to remember, you know, the great things you guys say. But there is quite a cadre of. Of wrestling intelligence and history and guys who are interested in this that I'm just a blessed person to be able to bring it all into one channel for our. Our viewers and our watchers. And then not that only that, but the great wrestlers that we have, Jerry Briscoe and Jerry Oates and, you know, the great referee, Bobby Simmons, and gosh, we got Mike George and so many great people. And we got some other. Larry Lane you mentioned Ted DiBiase just, you know, made an appearance. We've got so much great depth of knowledge here at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. I'm very, very fortunate. [01:01:22] Speaker C: Well, you're keeping the territories alive. As long as people like you are around and you're giving us all this great information and sharing your ideas, I think that. I think the territories will remain alive thanks to people like you. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Well, I hope so, because I think it's a time period worth remembering. It was a golden age of entertainment and of sport and of wrestling when we took things, you know, maybe sometimes more serious than we should have. But it was, you know, I mean, it was fun. It's still fun. I still enjoy talking about it just as much today as I did back in those days. And you and I got several things yet to do. We'll have some more mailbags coming up where listeners and viewers can write in and send their questions in. We've got the Wrestling observer hall of Fame coming up. We'll be doing a show about our candidates that we'd like to see. Get in there. What else we got? You and me and Jamie Ward. We're going to do a what if segment coming up here real soon, and I'm excited about that. And didn't you tell me that who reached out to you? Kerry Silken. Right. Reached out to you, and we were going to talk about the debut of Bruiser Brody at Madison Square Garden. We got a lot of cool things coming up. [01:02:42] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, so many so many things to do and so little time. But thanks for inviting me on, Tony. It's always a pleasure. And I love listening to your show every Wednesday. It's a highlight of my day. [01:02:53] Speaker A: Oh, wonderful. We got a great show still to come here today. Let's move into. Greg Klein is here, and we're going to be talking about his new book, the Texas wrestling Wars of the 1950s. He was just recently on a stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw with me, where we're doing the history of Texas wrestling. So let's welcome Greg Klein, my friend in here. Let's move to Texas. Steve, thank you so much, man. We're talking to my good friend Greg Klein, who is here once again on the pro wrestling time tunnel history show. And we're coming off a nice weekend in Waterloo, Iowa, in the Trago says hall of fame. And I was so, I was so tickled that I got to have so many of my friends at my table at the banquet, and Greg was one of them. And that was just a nice time. Greg, thanks again for coming. [01:03:47] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you. Tony, tip of the hat to you. You certainly made my Iowa experience more special than it would have been otherwise. And my good buddy Mark Cole underscored it to me. He, like, he wasn't even gonna go to the banquet because when he went the year before, a couple years before, he was in the back and he didn't get, you know, get to go through the line until last. And his blood sugar was spiking after a long day. [01:04:13] Speaker A: You know, I always plan to, I always plan to hook up with him and talk to him, and we never do. I never, for whatever reason, we always miss each other. And we missed each other again this weekend. [01:04:24] Speaker D: Yeah, it was a, you know, it was a tough weekend. I, I, on my own podcast, I called it choose your own adventure. And everybody got their own book in the series, and everybody had to pick, like, okay, what, what am I going to do next? [01:04:37] Speaker A: Right. [01:04:38] Speaker D: But it was, it was a ton of fun. And, you know, I was going to say being at the banquet at your table made it, you know, that much more special, because front row, you know, I must be in the front row. And just, you know, the amount of craziness in the mix of people at your table was really fun. [01:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I could tell you enjoyed meeting Charlie says. [01:05:03] Speaker D: Yeah. So that was unexpected. Af, as the kids would say. You know, I had read Hooker a million years ago. I knew that Charlie was younger than Lou, but I had not put my mental space to Thinking, oh, yeah, Lou Thes's widow is still alive and vibrant and. And then I didn't know who she was as a person. And that was the most special part of all. Like, Charlie Fez is a pisser. [01:05:26] Speaker A: She's. She's charming and sweet, and you don't have to worry about carrying the conversation. [01:05:33] Speaker D: I mean, so funny and so nice. And first of all, it has to be said, an Alabama woman, you know, through and through, from the Birmingham area, met Lou in Nashville, if I have that correct, when he was working for Goulas, and they just fell head over heels for one another and sort of, you know, second time's the charm for Lou and just a storybook romance and life together for the rest of his life. And now she's kind of the keeper of the flame. And as I said, have I mentioned how funny she is? You know, she just. She was across the table from me, essentially. The shires were not. The Shire. Yeah, no, the Shires. [01:06:12] Speaker A: Shires. George and Lorraine. [01:06:14] Speaker D: Yeah. So I just got lucky that she sat down next to Lorraine and was like, oh, I guess I'll sit here. And so the rest of the time, she just made me laugh. And when the banquet got long as banquets do, you know, no offense to Iowa. I mean, they are, no matter where you go, whenever you have something like that. [01:06:33] Speaker A: Well, and that was. Compared to the other couple that I've been to, that was one of the shorter ones. [01:06:38] Speaker D: Well, there you go. [01:06:39] Speaker B: But. [01:06:39] Speaker D: But my experience was it was fine because Charlie Fez was across the table, making me laugh. [01:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:45] Speaker D: So that. That was wonderful. And I. I think I even showed you, like, I was a little schoolboy or something. I got her phone number, and now she's my text buddy. And hopefully I'll have her on my podcast at some point just to talk about her. Her amazing life with Luthes. [01:07:01] Speaker A: You know, you get. You get her on your podcast, and I'll be impressed. [01:07:04] Speaker D: Yeah, we'll see. [01:07:05] Speaker A: That's not something she normally. Well, just be honored, because that's not something she normally does. [01:07:11] Speaker D: Well, I'm not pushing forward. I'm not like, you know, I'm not that guy. I. I kind of go my own way and do my own thing, but it's like, it's just fun to. To be able to say hi to Charlie Fez every once in a while. Hey, did you get home safe? [01:07:23] Speaker A: Yeah, you know. You bet. Yeah. You were there. Charlie was there. You were mentioned George and Lorraine. Of course. George did the induction introduction for me and Steve Varier Was there, which I was so happy that Steve was there. [01:07:37] Speaker B: And. [01:07:38] Speaker A: And he's been a contributor to the Time Tunnel and the Western Canada expert. And so such a. Such a knowledgeable and such a nice, nice fellow. And he had. He had quite the adventure getting there as well. So, yeah, we had good. And I didn't know the Cuban Assassin was going to be at my table, so that was a nice. [01:08:02] Speaker D: I was gonna say you're burying the lead. And then we have the Cuban Assassin. I don't know that anybody else has ever really experienced this, Tony, but I feel like I've lived now because I saw the Cuban assassin try to explain who he was to Charlie Fez. Hi, I'm David Sierra. Fidel Sierra, the Cuban Assassin, the saint. I mean, he could go on all day, right, with as many gimmicks as he had. And Charlie Fez is like, oh, okay. Nice to meet you. [01:08:32] Speaker A: Well, Gloria. Gloria had told me, and we'd been working on it for a month or so. She told me. She goes, now you got eight chairs, including yourself. Who do you want, you know, there? And I had told them, everybody we've mentioned so far. And I was short, too, and I said, I don't know who you want to put in these. Whatever you think, you know. And so she seated him there. And that was. That was a night that was cool. [01:08:57] Speaker D: It was fun. It was. It was just, you know, the Cuban Assassin and his buddy from Florida who. Who was a big fan as well and a promoter and stuff at various times. And it was actually. It was a great conversation. They were on one side of me, and George and his wife and Charlie were on the other side of me. And, you know, I couldn't have asked for more. And the cake was to die for, as you know. [01:09:18] Speaker A: So we had. And by the way, I did listen to your podcast, and I did not eat dessert the first time. [01:09:25] Speaker D: Okay? [01:09:26] Speaker A: I ate my cake. I ate my cake after my speech. [01:09:29] Speaker D: Waited. You waited for later? Yeah, so you could save. [01:09:32] Speaker A: So it looked like I was having two. It looked like I was having two, but I only had one. [01:09:36] Speaker D: Well, George and I had two. [01:09:39] Speaker A: It was there, you know, we had a standing room crowd at our. At our panel, and we talked about the great wrestling wars and pro wrestling history. And I had Roy Lee Welch there, which I was so happy to spend time with. Roy Lee that weekend. We got to know each other a whole lot better. And I'm definitely going to have him on here talking about some stuff. We were sitting there talking about. And this is kind of cool, because you don't have these conversations every day. But we were sitting there talking about 1960s Florida because he was a teenager when Lester was a partner with Eddie. And we were. When we were out in the hallway, he told Jimmy Garvin. He goes, oh, yeah, I remember when you were like, nine years old and you were in Coach John Heath's the wrestling camp. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, how come I'm not recording all of this? [01:10:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:33] Speaker D: But, you know, it's cool because. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. But you've done so much on that family. But this is a different perspective. It's really neat. You know, we've heard so much from Ron on his podcast and other places, and it's great. Like, I. I think it's wonderful, and we've heard your whole history lesson, but to hear it from the perspective of a different cousin, I'd like to hear that with Jimmy golden as well. You know, to hear from his perspective with his dad promoting Montgomery and places like that. [01:11:04] Speaker A: I certainly. I interviewed Jimmy a couple times for the series, and, yeah, it was. I learned a whole lot more about Bill golden than you will ever find on the Internet. And Roy Lee, the conversation with him was great, and I was glad he was there, and I was glad I had him on my panel. And, of course, you did a really, really good job. And that's what we really want to talk about today was the panel, what you thought, how much you either enjoyed it or whatever. And then we're going to talk about your new book, which you were promoting at Waterloo and giving out to certain people, and. And you donated a couple to the hall of Fame, and thank you for doing all of those things. [01:11:46] Speaker D: Yeah, so I became a lifetime member. And then our good friend Steven Johnson said, you know, it's better to just leave stuff behind if you don't sell it, and that way you don't have to take it home. I didn't do that, but I. When I did join, I said, hey, do you guys want a donation of books and you can just sell them and keep the profits? And they said, sure enough. So now if you're in Iowa, you can go to Waterloo, Iowa, and get a copy of the Texas Rasslin wars of the 1950s in Waterloo, Iowa, at the gift shop at the. What is it? The Dan Gable hall of Fame and Museum. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Yep, that's right. And, you know, I. There were a lot of things I liked about your book. One of the things I liked about it was you didn't just focus in on the wrestling wars, that was the overarching subject of the book, but the in depth profiles on certain people like Dizzy Davis and people like that. I really enjoyed reading that. [01:12:42] Speaker D: Yeah, I appreciate that. For me, you know, when we were talking with Ian Douglas about how he comes up with his subjects and he's like, well, I want to write about this person, but I don't know if there's a full book. And I feel that with a lot of these people, it's like, you know, what can you say that fills up a book about Dorothy Living Good? But something needs to be said about Dorothy Living Good. Right. I mean, she really was the first female promoter and she did it for 50 years. And everything we know about San Antonio wrestling, you know, came. Came from her. And Joe Blanchard was her junior partner for years and years and years. And when he finally gets the promotion, what happens? He breaks away from Fritz and starts his own promotion. I mean, that's the history of San Antonio wrestling from start to finish. And, you know, Dizzy Davis, Danny McShane, you know, all sorts of, like, little names that you wouldn't necessarily write a full biography about. And then people like Morris Siegel and Ed McLemore who maybe somebody should write a full biography about. [01:13:46] Speaker A: And a conversation with Tim Hornbaker about that very subject about writing about things that wouldn't fill a whole book is the whole impetus for my substack. [01:13:59] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:13:59] Speaker A: Because I thought, okay, well, this would be a great way to do that is on my sub stack I have the opportunity to write these features and this, that and the other. It wouldn't be a full book, but I can still get these people preserved in history by doing, you know, these pieces in certain series and things like that. So, yeah, it's exactly right. And I enjoyed that. About your book is that you had some things like that in there that wouldn't fill a whole book, but they were connected to the story too. They weren't just random things. [01:14:30] Speaker D: Yeah, no, I, you know, like I said, I feel like getting a view of Texas wrestling in the 1950s gave me a view of Texas wrestling overall. Like the series that you're doing, I kind of know where my story fits in between, but it also, you can see the beginning and you can see the end, you know, because you can see, you know, Morris Siegel and Burt Willoughby and, you know, all those guys at the beginning of the story. But then you can also see Fritz Von Erich and Paul Bosch and, and the Funks, you know, at the end of the story. And it's just fascinating. And, you know, I mean, let's be honest, there's only a small group of people that share our fascination with it, but the reaction has been great. We were at the panel afterwards, and you were speaking with Ron. I won't say, you know, privately, but very intimately. You guys were sitting next to one another having kind of your own conversation. And there was a half dozen or a dozen people around us still, including Roy, including Ron's son and grandson, and a group of people from Alabama that I was speaking with about various things. And. And Roy. I given Ron a copy of the book and Roy a copy of the book. And Roy is, you know, doing the thing he's. He's going through, and he's just getting engaged, and he's. Every once in a while, he's looking to Ron. He goes, ron, look at this, look at that, look at this, look at this. 10 cents. I can't believe that was 10 cents. Look at this. 50 cents a seat. How do you make money if it's 3,000 seats and 50 cents a seat? And so there's, like, this whole conversation going on, you know, about the book while we're having other conversations and while you guys are having a conversation. And then when I went to leave, I said, you know, I hope you guys enjoy the book. And Roy Lee goes, I'm enjoying it now. [01:16:16] Speaker A: Right, Right. [01:16:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, while we were. While we were sitting on the panel, he was underlining my name. [01:16:23] Speaker B: He. [01:16:24] Speaker A: He was like, look, look. And he'd point and point to my name, and you're in your book. You know, that's funny. Yeah, it's kind of cool. That was. [01:16:31] Speaker D: He was a great guy. I was very fun to listen to him, you know, again, to hear that family. And then, you know, as I said on my podcast, Ron Fuller was basically like the fourth panel member because he was chiming in with stuff. And, you know, when Roy's memory would falter a little bit because it was the 1970s, right. And he's done a million things since then and had a, you know, a thousand matches in his career or whatever, then Ron would jump in and say something. So it was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot more about the Atlanta Wrestling War. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Our. [01:17:03] Speaker D: Our good friend Steven Johnson says that would be the movie to make if the next, you know, big wrestling movie start with the day that Ray Gunkel dies and just go from there. So, yeah, it was fun to hear about that in a different way, because, you know, it's. That's one of those stories that everybody talks about. But to hear all the different angles and you've unearthed a bunch of them, which is really cool as well. [01:17:27] Speaker A: Roy Lee, it was fascinating because he's a real quiet, soft spoken guy, but have you ever seen any of his TV interviews? I mean, he just turns into the wild man, you know, especially when he was doing the crown and all of those things, you know, but. But he's just really, you know, and you could tell when we were talking about the Atlanta Wrestling war, you could tell he was still hurt over it. You could tell he still had raw feelings about the way that that all went down. And. Yeah, so, so, so many times that story is told. And I'm not, I'm equally sad for everybody involved. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to defend anybody, but it was, it was interesting to hear the emotion in his voice and the hurt that that betrayal happened. And then, you know, people say, well, they were trying to shudder. And I'm not saying I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying it was interesting to hear somebody who was right there in the middle of it all actually not be mad at them, but actually be hurt over it, if that makes sense. [01:18:40] Speaker B: Sure. [01:18:40] Speaker D: And you know, also Tom, Ernesto and the workers, because one day, you know how the boys are. I mean, if one day everybody is your buddy and everybody's in the locker room with you, and the next day they've all jumped to the opposition. Yeah, you. You're right. And that's, I mean, that's a great observation that he wasn't angry. He still had pain. He still hadn't, you know, released the, the just betrayal of it all. That's, that's. [01:19:07] Speaker A: He was, he was still hurt over the NWA members that didn't help them. [01:19:12] Speaker D: Yes, I heard that. [01:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:15] Speaker A: And I. Without mentioning who they were, I mean, he didn't. And I didn't ask and he didn't mention, and so I didn't even ask afterward. But after I got home and I was reviewing the weekend in my mind, I thought I should. I'm gonna call and ask about that because. Not for any particular reason other than. I'm just personally curious because it could, it couldn't have been anybody random. It had to be somebody that meant something to him or he wouldn't have been hurt that he didn't get their support. So I was just, just wondering. [01:19:46] Speaker D: Yeah, I don't know specifically, but I mean, it could have been like a, you know, Memphis didn't send helper or the sheik didn't send. [01:19:54] Speaker A: I know Memphis did because Jarrett was there. [01:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:57] Speaker D: No, I was just throwing out stuff off the top of my head. But it must be something. [01:20:02] Speaker A: And Lawler was there, so, I mean, I know they did. So I've gone through my mind who wasn't there trying to figure it out. I'll just call him at some point. But let's talk about your book. So what, what, what's. What are people going to find when they buy this book about the Texas wrestling Wars of the 1950s? [01:20:22] Speaker D: Well, you know, Tony, one of the things that I found, that I discovered when I was researching it was the parallel between this and the TV changes wrestling. Things that we know from growing up, you know, the territory wars and the Monday night wars. You know, this is a TV influenced TV caused issue that happens in the 1950s. Right. As television becomes popular. You know, post World War II. [01:20:52] Speaker B: Right. [01:20:52] Speaker D: As television becomes ubiquitous in American homes. You know, one of the first, as you've documented on many of your shows, one of the first popular shows is wrestling. In every single market, there's a story of, you know, TV debuted on this station and whatever it is, 4849, 50, maybe even 51, depending. And then the popular shows were XYZ and Pro Wrestling. And so that happens in Texas. And, you know, everybody knows the dumont network, everybody knows the NWA wrestling from Hollywood, but not everybody knows Texas wrestling. And that was one of the three syndicated shows. It actually lasts much longer than the dumont network show, you know, which is a network show that, you know, subject to the whims of the network. This was a syndicated show and it ends up being syndicated, you know, into Mexico and into other countries, like in South America, Central America. So it had a wider reach and a much longer run than the more famous 1950s wrestling shows. But, you know, the issue is that if you can sit home and watch wrestling, what happens, you know. And we all know, you know, again, like the Monday night wars, giving away matches on TV for free. [01:22:07] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:09] Speaker A: Well, it basically, it basically shut Memphis down. Yeah, because no one's going to go to the. And Randy Hales is on my show recently and he said it. No one's going to come out to the Mid South Coliseum and watch matches. When you got two major shows on television at home with a lot of big stars and a lot of crazy things happening that you don't want to miss, who's going to then come to the Mid South Coliseum on Monday night? Nobody. [01:22:33] Speaker D: And your biggest stars on one of [01:22:35] Speaker A: those shows and your other Big stars [01:22:36] Speaker D: are on another one of the shows. [01:22:38] Speaker A: Mr. Memphis, you get another. [01:22:40] Speaker D: If you ever do get another guy over, then he's going to be on one of those shows in a couple of months. [01:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah, because they were working as developmental for wwe. I mean, so. Yeah, I think. I think it's worth mentioning that in the transition between. In the transition between when Sam Mushnick put his show in St. Louis and between the Memphis getting the new show under Gulas Welch, which started the whole Sputnik Moreau and Billy Wicks thing, they both of those stations, for a short period of time ran Texas wrestling. [01:23:19] Speaker B: Right? [01:23:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:20] Speaker D: And, you know, in. There's so many references during this era when people are complaining about it. In Dallas, Fort Worth, you could see the Fort Worth show, you could see the Dallas show, you could see the Texas wrestling show, but then you could also see the NWA Hollywood show and the Chicago show. And a lot of times you had the same main eventers in different programs. Sometimes they were heels, sometimes they were baby faces, you know, depending on which place it was. And Texas and California shared a lot of guys, especially main event guys. So, yeah, it was like. And then, you know, on a Saturday night, do you go to a show or do you just stay home and watch the wrestling on tv? And again, I mean, this is the era where people are fascinated with tv, where you get those, you know, newsreels of people standing outside on the street, you know, outside the department store window looking at the tv. So, you know, people were not blase about it. They were very into this idea that they could just stay home and watch the matches. And so, you know, wrestling had to adapt. And here's the other thing. [01:24:27] Speaker A: Go ahead. Sorry. [01:24:29] Speaker D: If you're a worker and you're getting paid on the gate and suddenly the gate is down because instead of coming to your match on a Saturday night, they're watching you on NWA Hollywood or Texas wrestling. How do you feel about that? Especially if, in this case, the promoter in Dallas signed you to a contract that said you were going to get $5 every time your match appeared on TV, but there was no way to check that, and nobody was getting those $5 checks. [01:24:56] Speaker A: So I've got two questions for you right off the top of my head. One of them is, and I don't remember reading about this in your book, but who was managing and directing the syndication of the Texas wrestling television show? [01:25:09] Speaker D: You know, that is an excellent question, and I probably need to look into it. I think at some point it's probably [01:25:17] Speaker A: because, like you mentioned Houston had its own show and Dallas had its own show. Right. Or was Texas wrestling its show? [01:25:26] Speaker B: No, they. [01:25:27] Speaker D: I think they had both. I think they aired the Monday night, you know, from Fort Worth and Tuesday night from Dallas, or, you know, and then they also aired a Texas wrestling show, which was syndicated and went around. And I'd have to double check now, who was in charge of the syndication? That's a great question, and I don't have that answer. [01:25:46] Speaker A: Like, did they have, like, a separate. Like, was Sarpolis was in Houston, Right. Or was he in Dallas? [01:25:52] Speaker D: Well, he was the booker in Dallas, and he was part of the, you know, one of the owners. One of the four owners in Dallas. But I do think his main office was in Houston. But, you know, as you know, he traveled the circuit the most. [01:26:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:26:06] Speaker D: Of. Of the executives. [01:26:08] Speaker A: I just did. I just, you know, just. I was just curious about that. The other thing. What was the other thing? Oh, do you kind of think that. Let's look at amateur sports today in the nil. So college players for years have thought that, hey, I'm the reason why these television networks and all these people are watching television is because they're watching me, and I'm not getting any compensation for that. I'm not being compensated for creating this viewership of all of these television sets that are on because I'm on there and they're making a lot of money on my jerseys, down at the team store, on the university campus and all that, and I'm not getting any of that. And my name and my stardom is creating all this revenue that I'm not getting any of. Is that kind of the situation with the wrestlers here in the television? [01:27:10] Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. And again, they did sign a contract that said $5 every time they appear on TV, and nobody's getting that $5. And then the corresponding money from the house shows are going down. You know, this starts in 1952, Tony. And [01:27:28] Speaker A: the point there is that's where they're getting compensated is on the house shows that are decreasing. So their overall compensation is decreasing while they're watching this huge monster of television that they're not getting paid on. [01:27:40] Speaker B: Right? [01:27:41] Speaker D: Yeah. They're supposed to get paid for tv. They're not getting paid for tv, and meanwhile, their house show money is going down. And, you know, seemingly across the board and, you know, it was reported that Ed McLemore was making $60,000 a year [01:27:56] Speaker A: on Texas wrestling, which in 1951, 1952, was a big pot of money. [01:28:02] Speaker D: Yeah, that's A you know, 750, $800,000 in today's money. You know, not. Not licensing money of today's standards, but for a guy in 1952 that had, and it has to be said, he had two TV shows, not just one, he had Big D Jamboree, which was a, you know, country music show. Or actually it was just a music show. [01:28:22] Speaker A: I mean, it's a variety kind of show. [01:28:24] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, a variety show, exactly. So he had two shows that, you know, filmed in the Sportatorium. He probably made, you know, more than $100,000 a year in 1950s money just on his TV shows, let alone promoting, let alone the fact that he had the least of the Sportatorium. And literally everything from, you know, concert to wrestling to church revival on a Sunday morning paid a fee to him to use the Sportatorium. You know, he owned the concessions. He had everything. So. [01:28:56] Speaker A: So who were the. Who were the major stars that had a genuine complaint like that? They should. They were the. They were the ones that people were tuning in to see. [01:29:06] Speaker D: Well, the ones that went on strike in San Antonio were red Barry, Danny McShane, they were the ringleaders. And then Gory Guerrero, Dorie Funk, senior Kit Fox, I think was one of them. Basically all the headliners of the day, you know, were involved in it because their money had gone down. And the thing is, Tony, in the first Tuesday of November, 1952, the Dallas Sportatorium attendance shot up after weeks of it declining. And Ed McLemore said, See, things are still going great. We had our best night of the year last Tuesday night. Well, you know what the problem was, Tony? [01:29:50] Speaker A: Don't Greg, tell me. [01:29:51] Speaker D: That was the Tuesday of the presidential election. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I did read that broadcast [01:29:56] Speaker D: the matches and attendance went up and the wrestlers were quick to call Ed McLemore on that. And yeah, they, they, you know, essentially were threatening to go on strike if didn't get fixed. [01:30:12] Speaker A: Did the wrestlers like Ed McLemore? [01:30:15] Speaker D: I think generally speaking, they did. You know, the only person involved that I see a lot of stuff about people didn't like was Norman Clark, who was Morris Siegel's brother in law and ends up running Dallas for, you know, during the war. Yeah, I mean, there are a handful, like all the Dallas wrestlers stay with Ed McLemore. Now there's only three or four of them, and they're not the biggest names, you know, involved in the war, but I just got. [01:30:47] Speaker A: I just got a book and I don't remember the author, and it's over on the bookshelf. Because I finished it last night. But it was called Towering Texans, and there were profiles of all these great athletes from Texas. And Ed McLemore was profiled in that book, and it was six or seven page thing about him. And just reading it, I'm like, this guy's pretty likable. You know, the way he answered the questions and the way they talked about him in the. They put him over in the article, which they got no reason to do, but. But talking about him raising money for charity and being a responsible citizen of Dallas and a lot of things that he did, and he just seemed like he. He's not looked upon like a Paul Bosch. [01:31:37] Speaker D: Well, you know, as. As you and I have talked about a lot, the. The Dory Sr. Ed McLemore, Morris Siegel, Dorothy Living Good generation has been eclipsed by their proteges. So we talk about, you know, the Funk Brothers. We talk about Dory, we don't talk about Doc, we talk about boys. We talk about the Von Erich boys. We don't talk about Ed McLemore even. You know, I mean, Ed McLemore finally gets the booking office away from. From Morris Siegel, and then he dies. And Fritz Von Erich is the one that. That reaps the benefits of it. So I, I just think it's, you know, it's something about that generation, Tony, that they're the forgotten generation right now in wrestling. [01:32:21] Speaker B: And. [01:32:22] Speaker D: And, you know, it's kind of the middle generation, right? They're the ones that took over from the founding generation. They're the ones who made these promotions what we knew them to be. But they're not the ones who were alive during the, you know, the golden era of that we grew up in. [01:32:38] Speaker A: We're the. So were the Texas wrestling shows archived? I mean, are they still around? [01:32:43] Speaker D: There's very little of them left. They were on film, and I think a lot of the film, you know, didn't disintegrate live on, you know, during the fire there. Allegedly. That's why the fire happens to burn the films, although that may be a little bit of a red herring. But whatever was stayed, whatever was kept, was inherited by Fritz, was inherited by Kevin, was ultimately sold with Kevin, you know, by Kevin to whomever. So some of it exists on YouTube, but very, very little seems to have survived. Some of it may be owned by [01:33:22] Speaker A: the WWE at the height of its syndication. Do you recall how many stations Texas wrestling was on? [01:33:28] Speaker B: I don't. [01:33:29] Speaker D: I would love to. That's something, you know, further research to do for sure. [01:33:33] Speaker A: I've seen Ads for it in other newspapers, in cities during time period. I've seen ads for Texas wrestling. [01:33:39] Speaker D: Oh, for sure. And you know, I mean, in my book I have the ad from Variety, which I think is so cool. [01:33:44] Speaker A: I think it was, I think it was the choice. I mean, if, if I'm a station general manager, I mean just St. Louis and Memphis being a. And they're kind of Southern cities, but if I have an option. It seems like they always chose Texas wrestling over the, the Kohler product or the NWA Hollywood product. I mean, it seems like Hollywood wrestling. It seems like the, the Southern cities for sure always chose the Texas show. [01:34:12] Speaker D: Well, you know, as a Texas wrestling guy, I just think it was better. [01:34:17] Speaker A: Well, I, so I was, that's what [01:34:18] Speaker D: I was wondering if there's a better TV product. [01:34:22] Speaker A: That's what I was wondering is like how much of it is still exists. So you can compare. I mean there's, there's a lot of the old Chicago stuff left. There is, there is. [01:34:30] Speaker D: And I, I may, I'm poking fun, but you know, in the way that we do as wrestling fans and territory [01:34:37] Speaker A: wrestling fans, we stand up for the Southern. You know, there's not very many of us Southern guys around, so we got to stand up for the Southern product. [01:34:45] Speaker D: Well, you know, I mean, history isn't always written by the Vince McMahons of the world. Sometimes the wrestling historians get to strike back. [01:34:54] Speaker A: Well, I want to see all those smokey arenas on the Texas wrestling show. That's what I want to see. That you know, where wrestling used to be. What's the what, what's, what are people going to be surprised about when they read your book? [01:35:10] Speaker D: Well, I think. [01:35:11] Speaker A: Are they going to be like, wow, I didn't know all this happened. [01:35:15] Speaker D: Obviously. I think the big thing is the sportatorium fire. [01:35:18] Speaker B: Right? [01:35:18] Speaker D: I mean that, you know, that happening right in the middle of an 18 month wrestling war is a pretty big deal, I think. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Do you have evidence about how that happened or who did it or. I know you and James Beard has a conversation about it. [01:35:35] Speaker D: Yeah, so a very interesting conversation that I had with James Beard and then didn't get to follow up on with him. But when I met him, I gave him a copy of my book and I said, you know, I think you'll like this. You're a Texas wrestling guy, you know, something, something and something, something in the sportatorium burning down. And of course we don't know what happened. And he just laughed at me and he said, ah, come on, we know what happened there. And and then I kind of talked it out a little bit in front of him and he just kind of smiled and nodded and I somehow somebody else came up, up and I went on my way and the conversation never got any further than that. But you know what I said to him, what I think happened is that Ed McLemore burned it down because it, the building had to be destroyed. It was sitting one third on state land they had built into a dried up riverbed channel that was owned by essentially the watershed Commission, a state, you know, local partnership to keep the riverbed clear just in case, you know, so the people didn't get flooded out or whatever. And everybody along industrial had built into this river channel apparently. So the state was going along and collecting, you know, receipts and, and filing cases and the case had been adjudicated, it had been completely finished. You know, the state said, you have to fix this. You have to tear down one third of the building. And it was, you know, I mean, yes, you could say that this happened right as Ed McLemore was building up steam and, and taking on Morris Siegel. But it also happened right after the final no, you have to fix this court case was handed down. So, you know, the fact that it was the, the ringleader allegedly was a guy named to Tony from Houston and he wanted to burn the TV films. And so. But of course, as it turned out, the TV films weren't in the place that the fire happened. The TV films were tucked away safe and secure someplace else. But lo and behold, Ed Mathmore got the insurance money, rebuilt the sportatorium and you know, life went on. But the sportatorium that we knew was built in 1953 and you know, they called it the Million Dollar Sportatorium. They claimed it, you know, sat 6,000. But James Beard disputes that, as does many of our online friends, as you probably have seen in recent non controversies in the Internet wrestling community. But yeah, no, I, no one knows. You know, it's a mystery that will. A couple people went to jail. The ringleader went to jail. You know, the, the henchmen all did time served and, and turned on the middleman. But. Well, Tony from Houston, it's a mystery for the ages. [01:38:29] Speaker A: I mean, it originally opened in 1936 and influenced so many other places. I was just doing a, a feature on, I'm doing a 1966 thing with the Funks on the. This podcast and Benny Wilson, who was the promoter in Abilene for years when he built a new building in the 50s in Abilene. They called it the Sportatorium in Greenwood, Mississippi. The building was called the Sportatorium, and of course, the famous building in Florida that they call the Sportatorium. So it really was an influential thing, that building, because it influenced so many other buildings being named that in other cities. [01:39:17] Speaker D: Yeah. No, you know, the other thing, Tony, is if I've learned one thing, not to jump cities, but, you know, researching San Antonio and the 1959 war, the 1960 war in San Antonio, it cannot be overstated how important it is to have your own building, you know, where you don't pay rent, where you get all the money from the tickets, and where you can control the concessions or, you know, the parking if, if need be. You know, as we've talked about, when. When wrestling fans have to go to a different venue, they often don't. [01:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:52] Speaker D: But if they know this is our place and this is where we come, and every Tuesday night we're at the Sportatorium, they will come back again and again and again. [01:40:03] Speaker A: That was another great conversation with Roy Lee Welch, because I was sitting there and I said, hey, can I ask you about Griffin, Georgia? And he's like, yeah, what do you want to know? I said, the building that Buddy Fuller built down there for rodeos and wrestling, like, you obviously went to Atlanta in 1972. Like, did. What do you think about that building? He goes, heck, I lived there. I said, you did? And he said, yeah, I live there. And then Ron chimes in, he goes, well, when I was in the territory, I lived in a trailer right next to it, you know, And I'm like, you know, one of these days, it's. They use it for something else completely now. But, gosh, I'd like to go to Griffin, Georgia, because that was one of the things that Buddy Fuller did, is when he would go in to establish a territory, he built some of his own buildings to have wrestling in. The building in Florida, in Tallahassee, they built together. And so you're right, it was. It's really important to have your own building because, well, Tim Deals and I are getting ready to go into the whole split in Tennessee in 1977, and the whole arm wrestling match that takes place over the Mid South Coliseum. Is Jerry Jarrett going to get it or is Goulas going to get it? And how's that going to work out? And wrestling fans have now become accustomed to going to the Mid South Coliseum. And if Jarrett has to go to another building, his chances of keeping his rhythm in Memphis is going to be, you know, greatly decreased. So, yeah, you're exactly right. It is important to have your own building. [01:41:39] Speaker D: Yeah. And it's just, you know, I'm thinking about the beginning of the war when Dallas has, you know, the opposition has Luther's and Ed McLemore has the Sportatorium and the, the triumphant letter that he writes to Jack Pfeffer. Jack, we skunked him. We had 2600 and they had 800. And, you know, it's because the fans, you know, I mean, you can say that neither side won that war in that sense and that they took the four or five thousand fans that used to go to the Sportatorium and split them among three shows rather than one. But. [01:42:15] Speaker A: Well, that's the problem. That's the problem with wrestling wars. Nobody ever wins. [01:42:20] Speaker D: Yeah, to some extent, it's certainly true. [01:42:23] Speaker A: It's always a negative result, no matter how it turns out. The market is greatly affected, no matter what happens. And usually not affected in a positive way. No, no. [01:42:37] Speaker D: But I mean, it was, you know, it was a point of pride for Ed McLemore that he was keeping some of his crowd and winning, quote, unquote, the attendance battle, which I, I thought was so, so interesting, especially when the other side has Luthez and Mr. Moto, who, you know, three weeks ago would have been headlining for you. [01:42:54] Speaker A: It's the. The Texas Wrestling wars of the 1950s. It's written by my good friend Greg Klein here and it's available where Greg. [01:43:02] Speaker D: On Amazon, on Barnes and noble.com you can also go to Greg Klein presents.com my new website, mostly for my film producing, but also can buy all of my books there, including the King of New Orleans about the junkyard dog, and my fiction and theater work as well. [01:43:19] Speaker A: Well, it's. I've read it a couple times now and now it goes into my reference material where I will go back and look at certain things. And it's got little tabs in it and all that kind of stuff. And just like everything else you do, it's a high quality product. And I really encourage, I really encourage wrestling fans who. I know the wrestling fans that listen to this show are into history. So this is a book you need to get. So, Greg, thanks for taking a few minutes to be with me and talk about your new book. [01:43:49] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you for having me, Tony. Thank you for bringing me out to Iowa and sitting me at your table. What a great time. And now I'm a lifetime member, so I guess I'll be back now. [01:43:59] Speaker A: I'm working on my next, you know, who am I going to Bring next because we got to bring a friend, you know, every year. [01:44:05] Speaker D: So, you know, I brought a friend up from Boone, Iowa. So you kind of brought two friends, so that was good. [01:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah. You. You brought a guy who wasn't necessarily a fan but enjoyed himself. Right. [01:44:16] Speaker D: So he's a basketball coach. He's a basketball coach in Boone, Iowa. I mean, if, you know, you know, and God bless them, but he's a good guy. I knew him. We met when he was, like, just out of high school in Alabama and hanging around the basketball teams, you know, not yet going off to college. And I was probably like three or four years older than him and a young reporter, and we bonded over basketball. So, yeah, he was like. When we went to the museum, he's like, this is great, but this is the other sport in my gym when I'm trying to have basketball practice, I feel a little like I'm betraying my sport. [01:44:51] Speaker A: I wish I could have seen his face when Ron and his son and grandson walked in. They look like a basketball team. [01:44:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:44:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:58] Speaker D: Well, the cool thing is David's family is from Kentucky, so he's a Kentucky guy like you really at heart, God bless him. So he probably went home and watched a uk, you know, highlight reel or something and got right back into, you know, he. He's. It's. He's got to go a couple months before it's basketball season, but you know how basketball coaches are. It's always basketball season. Some summer league right now or something. [01:45:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I can tell. I can tell already. He's a great guy, but he is a good guy. [01:45:28] Speaker D: He's a real good guy. And again, I mean, God bless them and his community. [01:45:32] Speaker A: Texas wrestling wars of the 1950s. Get that for your pro wrestling library, everybody. Greg, thank you, man. [01:45:38] Speaker D: Thank you, Tony. I'll see you soon. [01:45:39] Speaker A: Next time I see you, we'll be talking about Dallas territory in 2H76, so come on back here soon, okay? [01:45:47] Speaker D: Yeah, we'll do. [01:45:48] Speaker A: Well, Greg Klein, everybody. Greg is, of course, the fellow who wrote the Junkyard Dog book about the life and times of the junkyard dog during his career in professional wrestling. And his new book is the Texas Wrestling wars of the 1950s. And here's the book so you can see it up close and you can see some newspaper headlines that he has here for the COVID Here's the back with a Greg's logo back there with his superhero outfit on. But it's an interesting book, and it started back with several conversations that he and I were having about this time in Texas wrestling history in the 1950s with Morris Siegel, Ed McLemore and Doc Sarpolos being the primary three characters. And then you had some other characters involved like Dorie Funk Sr. And Dick Murdoch's father, Frankie Hill Murdoch and Dizzy Davis. And Greg was recently on stories with Briscoe and Bradshaw on episode number nine of the History of Texas Wrestling, which is a series that I'm doing right now with Jerry and JBL on the show. And Greg did his usual phenomenal job taking us through 1950, 1953, something around that time, time frame. And that's what his book's about, the Texas wrestling wars of the 1950s. Do yourself a favor and pick up this book for your library. It's available from Greg or you can get it from Amazon and you can get it either in soft cover or you can get it in digital on your Kindle. Well, territory fans, after a long night of hard hitting history, you don't want to smell like the bottom rope of the ring. You want to smell like you just walked out of the jungle and you want to look like you're ready for war. Of course we're talking about using products from the Grizzly Up Soap Company, the family owned Kentucky crew that are making small batch all natural goat milk soaps that hit different. They just dropped some serious new heat. Fierce with Grit, Livewire with Grit, activated charcoal and classic tobacco and bay leaf. And the favorites, of course, my favorites are still packing a punch. You know, if you're a longtime listener here, the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel territory history show that I love. Kentucky Bourbon and loaded weapon. Whether you need something that cleans deep or something that turns heads, these bars are built for rugged skin and real life. Their motto says it best, if you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly and smell good while you do it. You can shop the full lineup at their website, grizzly upsoapco.com or swing by the store. Their physical store is at 200 East 9th street here in Western Kentucky in the town of Hopkinsville, Kentucky. What Jerry, Jared and Nick Goulis and Roy Welch used to run some fantastic spot shows there at the West Kentucky Fairgrounds in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. That's where Grizzly Up Soap company store is located. And you can stop by there and see all these great scents that I've talked about here, plus a whole line of beard oils and all kinds of wonderful things that they make there at the Grizzly Up Soap Company. Grizzly Up Grizzly Up Soap company Get clean, Stay fierce, Stay grizzly all right, so my next guest today and my final guest here at the Pro Wrestling Time Total History show is my friend Sean Delaney. Sean was here earlier this year in an episode where we went back and talked about the history of wrestling in Evansville, Indiana. And as you probably, if you're a longtime listener here of our show, you know that was my Wednesday night wrestling town that I went to when I was a kid. I first became a fan in 1972. I think I went to my first matches in Evansville around 1974, 1975. Somewhere in there, there was a fellow named Paul Gillen. And Paul lived just out the road here from where I live now. Just, I mean, right out the road here, not a quarter of a mile down the road. And he used to go to the matches in Evansville on Wednesday night. He never missed a week. And I would beg and plead and cajole my parents to let me go, and they would let me go with Paul to the wrestling matches. And so I saw a lot of great wrestling in Evansville, Indiana in the mid-70s. Well, Sean's new book has just come out covering the years of 1972, 1973, where Jerry and Christine Jarrett have just started promoting the town under Roy Welch and Nick Goulas's Tennessee territory. And Sean tells that story in his new book as well as the story of Phil Golden's All Star Wrestling in Paducah, Kentucky. Rip Rogers was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and you might if you heard that show, Rip and I talked about both watching Phil Golden's All Star Wrestling around the same time in 1972, 1973, that was done out of Paducah, Kentucky. That's all in Sean's new book. And Sean has also been involved in this history of Wrestling in Evansville display in the museum in Evansville, Indiana. And we want to urge you to go by and see that. I just noticed in a Facebook group the other day, someone had gone by and they had been through the the exhibit and they were, they showed pictures and they were talking about how wonderful it was. And so we want to talk about that tonight. Sean Delaney joins me by telephone and we're talking about his new book. And we're also going to talk about the history of wrestling at Evansville display at the Evansville Museum. On the line with me tonight is my good friend Sean Delaney. And Sean, who has written the series of books on professional wrestling in Evansville, Indiana, and also is involved in a special project right now in Evansville, Indiana that I think you're all going to want to know about. But his brand new book is out now. Is this book six or so, Sean? [01:52:19] Speaker B: It's book six. Book six. [01:52:21] Speaker A: I have them all right here. I got them from Sean when we were at the St. Louis event with Herb Simmons. So the book's number six is the history of professional wrestling in Evansville, Indiana, 1972 and 1973. And we're into the Jerry Jarrett time in Evansville, Indiana. The first part of that, Christine Jarrett and Jerry Jarrett and Sean. So tell everybody about this latest book that you have available. [01:52:52] Speaker B: Well, the latest book is like you said, 72, 73. This is really an interesting time because you've got the Jerus running Evansville and Louisville. You have sort of the tail end of Jarrett's working relationship with the WWA because Bruiser and Snyder had laid claim to Evansville and Louisville. You also have Nick Goulas separate from the Jarretts, running Owensboro, which was like 45 minutes, 50 minutes away from Evansville. And we also get into your childhood neck of the woods, Paducah, with the Phil Golden All Star promotion. Yeah, really focusing on the Paducah events. But this was around the time, I mean, we definitely get into it. This is when Saul Weingroth left the Nashville office and joined Golden. And this is really when I think the All Star promotion blew up doing their spot shows around Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky. So it's an interesting time for not just Evansville, but for the whole area. [01:54:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've, I, since we talked last time, we did a whole show about Evansville, Indiana. I've had Rip Rogers on the program. And Rip, you know, that was one of his first programs that he watched was Phil golden out of Paducah. So we had that in common. We talked about that. So I'm excited that we have that now in written form in your latest book. And not only have you got this new book out, the book number six in your series on the history of wrestling in Indiana or Evansville, Indiana, you also have. When did the display open that you've got there now? [01:55:09] Speaker B: Okay, the display opened. They had sort of a soft opening back on August 7th. [01:55:15] Speaker A: Okay. [01:55:16] Speaker B: So it's been open for a couple of weeks now, but the official opening was August 9th. And it is essentially 100 plus years or 115 years of Evansville wrestling, where we go back to the, the Joe Stacker, Strangler Lewis match. The first of their three matches took place in Evansville at one of the old vaudeville theaters and led to a 1011 year ban on wrestling in the city of Evansville. But then we pick up where the Vargas relaunched wrestling in the city and how it just consistently continued. We had that gap in the 60s, but yeah, for almost 100 years we've had pro wrestling going on in Evansville because it was 1926 when they started back up. [01:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And you sent me part of the Dr. Ralph Wilson display which is on display there now. Where is the display actually in Evansville? [01:56:52] Speaker B: Okay. It is at the Evansville Museum of Arts and Sciences. [01:56:56] Speaker A: Okay. [01:56:58] Speaker B: The, it's on Riverside Drive. It's like right along the river and you go in and it's in one of these special exhibit rooms and it's the full room. They've got the different plaques up along the wall describing the history. We have a couple of the posters from when Dr. Ralph Wilson was doing his surgical residency and wrestling in New York City. So we've got the Madison Square Garden poster and one of the boarding club posters from Yonkers, I think. And there's also a few other items. We have a couple of ring outfits that were put together by Fashions by Jan, who did a lot of ring gear for guys back in the 70s and 80s. We have a piece she did for Randy Savage that she still had and a singlet she put together for Bill demott as Hugh Morris. So. So I guess that would have been around the time he was in wcw. [01:58:26] Speaker A: Well, I, I had a trip that, where I was going to go up to Indianapolis for a few days and that trip got canceled, so I didn't get to go. So I'm planning on just driving to Evansville specifically for going through and perusing the display and everything. How long will the display be available? [01:58:47] Speaker B: Through January. [01:58:48] Speaker A: Oh good. [01:58:49] Speaker B: It's going to be going through January, so there's plenty of time for people to check it out. But you definitely want to go ahead and get out there quick as you can. We've got a few old programs on display there. I was talking with the museum guys and it was like there is so much more we could have put in, but at the same time you're, you're not wanting to overload people. It's like I can go into such minute detail with the books, but you really, for the museum, you want to hit highlights. And that's kind of what we do. We talk about Dr. Ralph Wilson. We talk about the stars of the 60s, 70s, 80s who came through Evansville and became national stars. We've got some of the old toys of guys who appeared in Evansville, they've got. Using your smartphone, you can use a QR code to find a promo for a wrestler promoting their appearance in Evansville. And they even have a thing for the little kids where you can design yourself as a wrestler, create your own Persona, which is kind of a cool thing for the little ones. [02:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:26] Speaker B: So, yeah, it. It was a nice, nice promo. I think I sent you a couple of the examples of some of the plaques that they've got up. [02:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah, you sure did. [02:00:43] Speaker B: We touch on Rip Hawk. We touch on some of the celebrities that were brought in by Leon Balkan. Didn't really get into some of the anniversaries. This is like the 85th anniversary for Leon Balkan coming to town. And it is also the 70th anniversary of Studio wrestling in Evansville, where they were doing live matches at the Carpenter Street Studios for Channel 7 back in the day. So it's. There is. It's kind of scratching the surface, but at the same time, it is just so much. We even touch on some of the indie promotions that are running today. We have posters from the national tour with wwe. They recently came to town with nxt, so we've got posters for that. I'm just. I'm very proud to have been part of putting this together. [02:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:02:04] Speaker B: Because it is such an obscure piece of Evansville history. [02:02:12] Speaker A: Well, I'm proud of you for doing it as well and for being able to have such a wonderful thing for people in the region here where we live. And if you are from Western Kentucky or Southern Illinois or Southeast Missouri or Southern Indiana, you definitely need to get over to the museum in Evansville and see this great exhibit that Sean's been a part of putting together. It's going to be going on from now up through January 2027. So make sure that if. If you're out this fall doing some going around and maybe you're going to. Doing some Christmas shopping or whatever, you need to make sure that one of your stops is the museum in Evansville and see this great display about the history, including leon Balkan and Dr. Ralph Wilson and many, many others. Okay, back to the book. Yeah, go ahead. [02:03:10] Speaker B: Okay. I was about to say this is a great time of year because you've got a lot of the fall festivals going on. Of course, Evansville has West side Nutclub Fall Festival. It's nice little excuse to get over to Evansville and while you're there playing by the museum. [02:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I was telling my uncle about it. He lives in Owensboro, and I was telling him about it the other day on the phone. And he's in his 80s and he's been a longtime resident up there, and he would like to go. So I think I'll take him over there one day. I'll go pick him up and take him up there and we'll go up there together. So. [02:03:50] Speaker B: And just remember as they get into the fall, it's. They aren't open Monday and Tuesday. [02:03:57] Speaker A: Okay. [02:03:58] Speaker B: So it'll be Wednesday, Thursday and the weekend. So you might hop online, double check the hours. But it's like I said, it's going on through January, so it's a great time to check it out. [02:04:12] Speaker A: Good to know. Good to know. No Mondays, no Tuesdays. So Wednesday through Saturday, did you say? Or Sunday. [02:04:21] Speaker B: I believe there is a Sunday hour, but our Sunday hours, but never hurts to double check. [02:04:28] Speaker A: Yep, sounds good. All right, so back to the book. 1972, 1973, Evansville, and also some Western Kentucky and Paducah in there. So we got a lot of people who listen to our show because, you know, I'm from here and we've got a lot of fans that are also in this region. So want you to make sure and pick up this book because it's a very historical, significant piece of wrestling history that not a lot of people, you know, in the broad spectrum of wrestling history, a lot of people aren't. Aren't really aware or don't know about, but it's special to me and it's special to, like, Rip Rogers and some others who live in this particular area and remember that time. And I also got from you while I was in St. Louis, I got the poster that you have with Jerry Lawler's rookie year of being in Paducah. [02:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. When I, I'm trying to remember if golden was technically still the promoter or if they had phased him out and that's what led to All Star at that point. Point. But yeah, when Lawler was tagging with Buddy Hack, those first main event appearances for Lawlor were his rookie year down in Paducah. [02:05:53] Speaker A: And a lot of people who grew up here that are my age or older will remember Buddy Hack. He was a huge baby face in Paducah. He worked at the, the Railroad Shop, I think, for a, for a job. And he was also a wrestler. And he, he, he was over down here. A lot of people really liked Buddy Hack because he was, he was a local. [02:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There. When I was working on the previous book, the 7071, the Paducah Son was really helpful. They sent me the stuff from their morgue or their file on Buddy Hack. And there were some great articles I don't think necessarily are on their online right now. [02:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I know a lot of. I know a lot of old newspapers just got released from Paducah and just got published not long ago. So I was looking at some studio wrestling from 1959 that have just been released. So, you know, little nice. Little by little, these things are being digitized. So that's good. [02:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. It's great that it is being digitized, but by all means, get it while you can, because you never know how long that stuff's going to be up there. [02:07:21] Speaker A: Now that. [02:07:22] Speaker B: That. [02:07:23] Speaker A: That tag match you're talking about, that. The poster that I have, you know, Buddy Hack and Jerry Lawler versus Eric Steinke, and the scorpion was the scorpion. Don Duffy at that time, I do [02:07:35] Speaker B: not know for sure, but honestly, I think Lawler thought it was. [02:07:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:42] Speaker B: When I showed him that poster. Yeah. [02:07:45] Speaker A: Duffy played the scorpion a lot. Back in those days, [02:07:50] Speaker B: I. When I was working on this book, it was hard to. One, it was hard to get time to interview Lawler, and two, I know from experience and talking with people who worked in the promotion, Lawler's memory has never been fantastic, especially when you try to pinpoint specific matches or different guys he worked with because it was a job. Yeah, it was another day at the office. But I did reference his book. It's Good to be the king sometimes. And reading that book, I realized no wonder I was a Lawler fan. He's adhd, too. Yeah, well. [02:08:51] Speaker A: And to be honest with you, you know, these days when I think back and I try to remember stuff, it's hard for me, too. So I can't be too hard on Jerry, you know. [02:09:01] Speaker B: Oh, no, no, that's it. It's. And you didn't necessarily take the chair shots. He did. [02:09:08] Speaker A: I did. I did not. I did not. [02:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, but now. Now we're getting ready to get into 74 and 75, and I'm kind of looking forward to it because we're starting to get into when I started watching. [02:09:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:09:25] Speaker B: So that's going to be. It's going to be fun. [02:09:28] Speaker A: Well, it's a lot of good stuff. And I want to bring this up, too, because I was driving back the other night, probably about three or four weeks ago, I was driving home late one night. Of course, I'm. I'm listening to different podcasts and shows and stuff, and I listen to Brian Solomon's show, which you were on, and you were talking about contacting Leon Balkan's granddaughter. Did you ever do that? [02:09:53] Speaker B: The. The woman I had tracked down with the name apparently was not [02:10:03] Speaker A: her. [02:10:04] Speaker B: Who? It was not her. She. He had this right first name. Her father's first name was the same, but she was a Balkan by marriage. [02:10:16] Speaker A: Ah, I see. [02:10:17] Speaker B: So, yeah, she. She wasn't the Karen Balkan I was seeking. So the search continues and hopefully I can track her down. But I did get to speak with the granddaughter of the woman from Evansville that Leon married while he was here. And she got to tell me some stories about in the 50s. On Wednesdays, she and her brother and sister would have dinner with their grandmother and Leon, and then they would go to the Coliseum and they got to watch the 50s wrestling from the stage. So they were watching Ike Eakins and Bobby Manigoff and Gorgeous George and all these people as little kids from the stage. [02:11:23] Speaker A: Now, another little local note I wanted to ask you about in this little package of things that you sent me with some different photos and whatever noticed, there's an ad in here for wrestling in El Dorado, Illinois. And it's Friday night at 8:15 at the New high school gym in El Dorado. And the main event is Herb Welch versus Pancho Villa. And Herb, of course, I've done extensive research on him and the entire Welch family, but Pancho Villa is an interesting character because he is the person who basically trained Jimmy golden. And his wife is on the card, Mrs. Pancho Villa, which would have been. Which would have been Ann Laverne, and she's wrestling Cora Combs. And Ann Laverne is the mother of a prominent member of my pro wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group whose name is Mary Nelson, and she wrestled as Marie Laverne. And so this is interesting that all of these people were appearing in El Dorado, Illinois, and we just talked about Buddy Hack, and he's on the card against an old time heel here in this area named Red Roberts. You remember what year this is, this ad that you've sent me? [02:12:45] Speaker B: Oh, Lord. Well, let's see. It's the new high school gym in El Dorado. [02:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:12:53] Speaker B: So as I hop on while I have my phone here, let me. [02:13:02] Speaker A: I mean, it would have been the 60s. I would think. [02:13:08] Speaker B: It would have been the 60s. And this is the. It's what is now known as the Duff Kingston Memorial Gym, named after a couple of El Dorado High School players who were killed in the University of Evansville plane crash. That gym. The gym was built in 1957 so that would. That would be 57. That would have been the Nashville office when they were. They were running Paducah. And they would have had the TV on WSIL in Harrisburg, just up the road from El Dorado. [02:13:55] Speaker A: Now, it might be a little bit of a fine point, but it could have been the Dyersburg office and Herb might have been the promoter, I don't know. But he's in the main event. You know, it's hard to separate all those guys back in those days. [02:14:12] Speaker B: Hard. Hard to separate at that point. But I think they were definitely running, running your favorite TV wrestlers from what people were watching on WSIL at that time. [02:14:31] Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah, I don't know specifically how long the WPSD show lasted. Like I said, I was looking at results from there from 59. And I haven't. I haven't gone through all of those results yet to see what years they go from and what years they go to. The other thing about this ad is you can tell that Buddy Hack is a big deal because he's on the. He's in the ad. It's a big picture of Herb Welch on one side, and they're not wrestling each other. Buddy Hacks in the opening match against Red Roberts. But Buddy Hack's photo is on the other side of the ad. So they knew what they were doing in local promotion. Because Buddy Hack, he was from. Was he from Southern Illinois? I think he was, wasn't he? [02:15:18] Speaker B: I think if I. If I remember that article I was sent, I think he was actually just from the Paducah area. He may have been from Massac County. [02:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, [02:15:33] Speaker B: actually, now that I think about it. I think when he passed away, he was at a nursing home in Metropolis, now that I think about it. I'd have to double check it, but there's an article. So he may have been. There's that county. [02:15:54] Speaker A: There's an article from a newspaper that you sent me too, here, that matches by top men, women wrestlers at El Dorado High School gym on Friday. And Pancho Villa's picture, a younger picture of him than it would have been at the time, but still. There's a promo picture of Pancho in there. And he was a tough old bird boy. I mean, Jimmy golden said he wore him out when he was down in Alabama and his dad was down there running. Bill golden was down there running in Alabama. Pancho Villa was his trainer. And he said he was a. He was a tough fellow. So, gosh, to be back in the old days, huh? [02:16:35] Speaker B: Oh, it's it's amazing. And I finished this book shortly after my mom had passed away. And one of the things I found, just while doing research, was what I thought may have been the first wrestling card her grandfather took her to. [02:17:03] Speaker A: Wow. [02:17:04] Speaker B: Because they would. I think the Lions Club was the sponsor, but they would do cards at the fairgrounds in Harrisburg. And it is so on brand that my mom's first card was Maurice Talay in the main event. Wow. [02:17:31] Speaker A: There's a lot more richer. There's a lot richer wrestling tradition around here than people realize. And I really appre. I really appreciate you getting it recorded and getting documented and getting. And getting in these books. The current one is the history of wrestling in Evansville, 1972-1973. Sean Delaney is the author and historian who's publishing that work, and he's also involved in this display at the museum in Evansville about the history of wrestling in Evansville, Indiana. And that will be up until January of 2027. So we need to make sure and try to get people to go out and see this stuff. Sean, thank you so much for doing all this. [02:18:13] Speaker B: Oh, happy to do it. And it may be a little late when this bears. But as we're recording this weekend, I will be at the museum on Saturday. They are doing their annual Comic Con on this Saturday. So I will be there. And so it's a great opportunity for people to check out the exhibit and check out the convention. [02:18:42] Speaker A: So certainly it will be. This will air after that, but certainly put something in the Facebook group about that and feel free to post that in there that you're going to be there this weekend at the Comic Con. [02:18:56] Speaker B: Okay, Will do. Will do. [02:18:59] Speaker A: All right, Sean Delaney, everybody. Sean, thank you, man. [02:19:03] Speaker B: Thank you. Talk to you soon. [02:19:06] Speaker A: What a great visit with Sean Delaney. I really enjoy Sean quite a bit. He's a great friend. I enjoy hanging out with him. I enjoy going back in our fandom together. So many parallels of our wrestling fandom having grown up here. I grew up here in Western Kentucky. Sean grew up in Southern Illinois. And always enjoy it when Sean and I get together. And I respect him so much for being involved in this Evansville History Museum exhibit at the museum in Evansville and go by and see that if you're in the area I talked about going to do. I just talked to my mom the other day. I said, mom, we're going to go pick up my uncle, my Uncle Russell in Owensboro, Kentucky, and we're going to go see the. The wrestling. And she's like, all right, honey, I don't care as long as we have some lunch. So I will take my mom and my uncle with me to see the Evansville History display on Wrestling 100 Years of Wrestling in Evansville. Can you imagine what that takes in the work that Sean has done on that and the memorabilia that he's collected in order to put in this in this display? It's there all through the fall and holiday season here in 2026. So you have no excuse to not go by and see that wonderful work of love that these folks have all collaborated on and done so that you can see a celebration and recognition honoring the rich 100 year tradition of wrestling in Evansville. My goodness, did I see some classic matches there in my time. Hey, if you're part of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel community, you're watching, you're listening to our show today. Have you checked out some other segments of our community that you can be involved in and you can interact with other wrestling fans and you can interact with me. Our YouTube channel is a great place to do that. It's where we put all the video episodes that we do of our show. They go in there. Also a lot of clips of our videos and we have curated playlists. I just updated the special extras playlist this past week. I just put a video in there, the 55 wrestling moves of Dorie Funk Jr. Which is an interesting video to watch if you want to refresh your memory on how many different wrestling moves Dorie Funk Jr. Could execute. The 1972 NWA title match from St. Petersburg Florida Championship Wrestling from Florida aired in 1972. That hour long match for the title, we put that in the special extras. WWE did a tribute to Dorie Funk Jr. We put that in the special extras. And then of course my guest appearances on other podcasts talking Memphis wrestling. I was on last week with Randy Hales and Dr. William Robinson. We looked at the Austin Idol and Jerry Lawler Hair versus Hair in a cage with Paul Heyman on the outside who's just starting his career. Tommy Rich underneath the ring and they cut Jerry Lawler's hair in Memphis for the first time ever. We showed the whole match. We made comments throughout the match. We picked up interviews before and after. We also showed on the show Jerry Lawler doing the 1976 interview at WHBQ Channel 13 after the Terry Funk match for the NWA title in August of 76 where Jerry claimed to have won the title. And his interaction with Lance Russell is classic. Not only is Jerry Lawler just an amazing heel back in those days. But lance Russell, his 80s work was good, really, really good. But his 1970s work is just classic. And so that interaction, about three and a half minutes of pure gold there. And Then in the 1976 Wrestling Curated Playlist I put a bunch, I put about 15 or 20 new matches in there. Jack Briscoe and Jumbo Ceruta for the United national title in Japan. Put a raw footage of Andre the Giant and Nick Bockwinkle for the AWA title in August of 76. Comiskey park in Chicago. Gosh, some some more Gulf coast championship wrestling from 76 with Sweet Daddy Watts. There's a lot of good stuff. And I also in YouTube you have the ability to post notes in there that you can leave for your subscribers. And so you want to make sure and become a subscriber, hit the bell or hit the button, become a subscriber to the YouTube channel and you'll get Every time I update the channel or put a new note in there about what something we've done differently or I've uploaded new episodes or new clips of our show. All of that. You'll be notified if you subscribe and have your notifications on there in the YouTube channel. And if you would like to, if you'd like to comment in there, I'll, I'll put a post in there about your favorite 1976 memory or territory question and I'll, I'll publish that note here once this show airs today and you can go in there and I'd love to hear from you in our YouTube channel. What's your favorite 76 memory or 76 territory question? And we'll, we'll interact together and have some dialogue. I love doing that with fans. When I, when I scrape together a few extra minutes, I like to go in one of our communities and interact with everyone. So the YouTube channel, it's Tony Richards Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel YouTube channel and you go in there and subscribe and that would help us out. If you're listening to this on Audio, Apple Podcast or Spotify, just give us a quick 5 star review, hit the 5 star review button and also hit the follow button, the plus button, whatever it is to help you subscribe to our show. That will help history shows like ours get in front of more wrestling fans and it'll also let you know every time we do a new episode. So five star review, hit the follow, hit the plus, hit the subscribe button, whichever one it is and we would love to have you there. Follow me on x Tony Richards 4 I do quick History drops on there and you can follow me. I have almost 19,000 followers on X and we have a wonderful dialogue on there going back and forth. And every day I do a little RIP salute to wrestlers who passed away and also drop Quick History drops there on the X platform and I'd love to see you over there and interacting with me on X. Thanks a lot for joining us today. We started out with Steve Giannarelli talking about the seven stages of the Territory era and talking about my framework for understanding the years of the territories from 1925 to 1995. We'll follow up on that in future segments and keep that discussion going. Greg Klein was here to talk about his new book, the Texas Wrestling wars of the 1950s. You need to pick up that book if you're a serious history buff or history fan of professional wrestling. You need to read about the Texas Wrestling wars in Texas. Boy, they got brutal and they got very, very hot and they got very, very personal. And Greg documents it all in his new book. And then finally Sean Delaney was here to talk about his new book, 1972, 1973 the History of Wrestling in Evansville, Indiana. And we talked about his new display that he's involved in in the museum there in Evansville that celebrates 100 years of wrestling in Evansville, Indiana. And I hope you'll get a chance to go see that before the year is finished. Thanks for joining me today. I never take you for granted. I appreciate you very much. I appreciate your support. I appreciate the subscribes, the follows, the 5 star reviews and all the comments that come in every time we do a show. You're very, very important. Without you there's no show. So thank you so much for joining. I will see you back here again next week where I'm hoping Now don't hold me to it, but I'm hoping we dive into the state of Florida next week and we go into 1976 one more time. We went in earlier to talk with Steve Kern about his feud with Bob Root. This time we're going to talk about the year of Dusty Rhodes in Florida in 1976 and the overall championship from wrestling from Florida that year. Dusty's primary overall feud was with Terry Funk for the NWA title. Bruce Owens and Howard Baum will be here and I'm hoping also, and I don't have this recorded or scheduled or even set up yet, but there are two other people that I really would like to have on the show next week that I'm hoping we'll get them. If we don't get them, I might have to put it off and do a different show next week. But I'm hoping we do championship wrestling from Florida 1976 next week. And maybe we might go a little further back to 1966 in next week's episode. We'll just have to see how it all works out this week. I hope you have a wonderful week wherever you are. And remember, if you would like to have better neighbors, be a better neighbor. Coming to you live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky. This is Tony Richards saying so long. Have a great week. Good luck everybody, and so long from the Bluegrass State. [02:29:05] Speaker C: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro [02:29:07] Speaker B: Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. [02:29:09] Speaker A: Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities [02:29:16] Speaker B: that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. [02:29:19] Speaker C: We'll release a new episode soon. [02:29:22] Speaker A: Don't you dare miss it.