Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things to talk about and to do today.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s.
[00:00:13] Speaker C: It's the best thing going today.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: And now here's your host, Tony Richards.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Hey everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Special Edition podcast. We're jumping in here to deliver some extras for you during the holiday season. And alongside here at the Richards ranch, my good friend Steve Giannarelli, who has some extra additional info we just wanted to pass along to you for historical purposes.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really good to be here with you, Tony, and it's great to wrap up the year with you. Reviewing 1970, one thing that I found quite interesting and it's definitely nothing that I really discuss with anybody else, I don't believe back In July of 1975, as a matter of fact, the tapings they did on the, I think it's the 16th and 17th or perhaps the 18th tapings they did in Philly and in Hamburg, Pennsylvania, saw the debut of the Mongolian Stomper appear on a show there.
And I don't have any other listing of him other than that one appearance, which is really bizarre. But.
[00:01:46] Speaker C: And what was the, what was the month on that, Steve in 70, July.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Of 75, it looks like right in the middle of the month they did a taping. And yeah, I mean the only thing, and you and I talked about this briefly, the only thing I can imagine is according to JJ Dillon's book, he used to manage the Stomper and he always not unlike a Buddy Landell or some other wrestling characters, he had that self sabotaging gene in his DNA. And I think he had a fight or flight and just kind of left the promotion almost immediately.
And he would have been a good Bruno opponent. I think he had the size. He definitely look kind of fearsome looking and it's a shame that he felt that way. And they never came to the Northeast again, I don't believe.
[00:02:34] Speaker C: Yeah, Archie Goldie is the real name of the Mongolian Stomper. He started out in Canada with Stu Hart and he was one of the top heels of 75. And we were wondering like he would have been a great opponent for Bruno, why didn't he ever go to the wwwf? And turns out Steve found a spot where he did and that would have been right after he had finished up in Florida, I believe.
And he had been in Florida as the Southern heavyweight champion.
And so then he went, I guess, up there, had gotten a call to go up there.
We don't know what the plans for him were, I suppose, but that fills in some mystery because he's in the top five heels of the whole year.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Gotta be. And I think you said he had some NWA title matches as well.
[00:03:30] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. In Florida, he. He was against Briscoe. And then when. I guess when that didn't work out in the www. If he went to Tennessee and Ron Fuller's NWA Southern, he. What's interesting about him is he held both versions of the Southern title in 75. He held the Florida.
Excuse me. And he held the Tennessee version. So he was in Tennessee then from late summer up until the first part of November.
Then he goes to Texas. And I always wondered why he. Because the promotions were all very cooperative then.
I don't know. I guess.
Do you think there was more tolerance in the south for. For his temperament or what. What.
What do you think? Or just had people he got along with better or.
Well, maybe.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: Maybe he felt they didn't expect a lot out of him. Maybe, you know, going to New York, you know, you're thinking you're gonna wrestlemanson Square Garden. You think all the eyes of the world are on you. I mean, from reading.
I went back to JG Dillon's book to read that part of the book that was about stomper. And JJ basically said, I think this is early 76, right after with the time he just mentioned. Yeah, they were paired up together, and JJ's his manager, and, you know, they have lots of plans for him. And Stopper apparently is telling jj, hey, let's get out of here, or I'm going to get out of here, because they have no plans for me. They have nothing planned for me.
This is just a waste of time.
And so he just had that anxiety, you know, I guess JJ said in the book he had, you know, certain issues, mental health issues that made it difficult for him to be happy and stay in one place for a period of time. So that. That. I think that's what happened. I think just the fear and pressure of, oh, you have to, you know, wrestle in front of 20,000 people or go to these cities or people are depending on me. I think it just got to be too much for him.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And most. For most of 75, his manager was Bearcat Wright.
And Bearcat Wright managed him in Florida and in Tennessee.
And when he went to Texas, Then that's when JJ hooked, hooked up with him.
And somewhere in there, and this might be later on in the 70s, Don Carson became his manager. But, but I don't know, maybe Bearcat Wright handled him differently or he was the go between and maybe Bearcat Wright was telling him there were plans for him.
Maybe he went to the WWWF without a manager and he started having. I mean, I've told, and you know this, but I have an executive coaching practice and I work with CEOs and executive teams and I'm constantly telling them you have to constantly communicate with people and let them know what's going on. Because every human being has a basic need of love and belonging.
They want to feel like they're accepted. They want to feel like they're part of something. They want to feel like they're included and they want to feel like they're significant.
And sometimes that need is healthy and sometimes it's unhealthy. So it might be that the stomper had a little bit of an unhealthy need for acceptance and significance because he had been pushed in some of these other places.
And so going into New York, you know, where he, he might not have been the lead heel.
He might have felt like, well, and, and again, if you don't communicate with people, they're going to fill in the blanks themselves and nine times out of ten those blanks are going to be filled with negativity.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Right, right. You know, it's the way our minds think, I guess. More negative than positive.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Yeah. If you don't tell someone they're doing a good job, their assumpt going to be that, I guess they don't like me here or I guess I'm not doing very well, they're not talking to me, you know, so that, you know, especially with, I mean, I've coached creative performing people my entire life and they can be sometimes a bit of a handful if those needs are not healthy.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And you know, and this is off topic slightly, but I give lots of credit to Bret Hart for, you know, he just mentioned it on one of those old WWF roundtable shows that Pat Patterson happened to be on. And the theme of the show, I believe they were, they were talking about the greatest Canadian wrestlers. That was the theme of the show. And Brett remembered what a huge draw that Archie Gouldy was for the Calgary promotion in somebody that Stu could rely on and brought him back for different runs.
And when Brett mentioned Archie Gouldy, poor Pat Patterson had a, you know, practically, you know, threw up in his chair there, I guess. Pat Patterson, even for all of his wrestling genius, he was a bit of a wrestling snob is the term I like to use.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And different guys are different. I mean, Jerry Oates, who's been on our show many times, he's someone who has an attitude of I, I just show up and I do my job and whatever they want me to do, I do it and I get paid and I'm happy and they're happy, you know, and that's the, the kind of, the simplicity of it. But other guys can be complicated at times.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And, and one other little piece of minutia I found while discovering Stompers brief WWW run was that the same set of tapings, funny and cold. Dr. Jerry Graham also reemerged with a Grand wizard at his side as his manager.
And usually grand wizard only managed the top talent. You know, I would like to have thought they may appear in Stomper with him, who knows? But, but he, Dr. Jerry Graham back for another run.
I.
Other than him appearing at these two tapings and he beat Pinky Larson and Lee Wong, who were two of the lowest level job guys that Vince Sr. Like to use.
He got two wins and then he was never appeared again as a wrestler. You know, he came back in 85. Vince brought him back and tried to use him as a behind the scenes type guy, but that only lasted very, very briefly. But yeah, it was just kind of funny to even imagine him wrestling in the WWWF in that time frame because he was, you know, very overweight and over the hill and he's battling alcoholism and I mean, I think he was kind of their pet project. Maybe they wanted to give him another chance, but it just wasn't meant to be because he didn't last beyond this taping.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Well, and some of those older promoters like Vince McMahon Sr.
Had loyalty.
And Dr. Gerry had been with Eddie Graham. They had been the Golden Grahams and they had been in New York in 1958 and they had drawn huge crowds at Madison Square Garden and the other WWWF arenas.
And he, McMahon Sr. Had a tendency to stay loyal to those who had done that in the past.
And I don't know, talking about psychology, I wouldn't even begin to figure out Dr. Jerry Graham's psychology. But I do know, I do know that he was one of those heels that he could just walk out to the ring and make people mad.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: Just his presence in the arena made people mad. I don't understand it. I don't. I Don't know what the deal there is. All I know is he had one of the. He had one of those auras that was dissonant to people. They just did not like him at all.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you're absolutely right about the, the loyalty with the promoters.
I know John McAdam and I have talked about Bulldog Brower a lot. He's a guy that came in at the end of the 70s, 1979, and had a run against Backlin. And, you know, John and I both agree that, you know, he was very past his prime at that point, and we couldn't really figure out, like, why did he come back. But, I mean, the one thing you have to keep going back to is, you know, I think Vince McMahon Sr. The elder Vince McMahon, was very loyal to these guys who had drawn big gates with Bruno in this late 60s or early 70s, and wanted to give these guys another chance and at least a good payday or something.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Did you ever see Dr. Jerry Graham in a card or anything?
[00:12:34] Speaker B: No, no. I got to see Bulldog Brauer, Russell Backlin, actually, but not Dr. Jerry Graham. I think he's got to be one of the most fascina characters in the history of wrestling. I mean, he's out there with Jim Barnett and some of the other bizarre characters.
[00:12:50] Speaker C: Well, Joe, Joe Turner and Bill Bowman. They, they wrestled for a streak in the south as the Masked Interns. They weren't the original Interns, but they wrestled as the Interns, and they had wrestled as Joe and Bill sky and some others. Well, anyway, when they had wrestled as the Interns, the promoters put them, the bookers down in Alabama or Tennessee or Georgia or somewhere. They put Dr. Jerry with them and they said it was the worst stretch of their lives trying to keep up with him and keep him just coming to the matches and showing up. And they were constantly in trouble because of something he did.
To listen to their stories about Dr. Jerry, it's sort of like the most unwanted house guest you could ever want.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: You know, that's what I've heard. And I, I heard he was that most unwanted house guest too. But, you know, I know, I know there's. You might be having Davey Ohannon on a future show. Yep. And apparently he had a run in with Dr. Jerry Graham. I heard him talking about another program.
He basically said something like in one promotion, which I'm assuming may have been In New York, Dr. Jerry Graham did something to him in the ring that was completely uncalled for. I think he basically gave him a cheap shot from behind that was uncalled for. And I think Davey actually gave him a receipt for it in Kansas City when they were both in Kansas City about a dozen years later. So that'll be something you could ask him about.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: I sure will. And we're going to have him on as soon as we can. He just. Just had some back procedures not long ago and he's doing good and he's recovering from it. I just checked in with him a day or two ago and he looking forward to being on the show. So we just want to keep sending our prayers and thoughts to Davey Ohan and for his recovery. And I know what back pain is like, and so I'll be happy for him when he starts getting over that. You know, another thing that happened in the www if in December that we didn't mention, but it was kind of a significant thing, was on December 15, 1975, Antonio Inoki wrestled the first time in Madison Square Garden. And he wrestled against the name that many of us have heard, who's a carpenter or an enhancement talent, Frank Monte.
And so they had that match, and I don't know why that match was, but I do know that they would be coming back in 76 with the famous Ali and Anoki thing that Vince McMahon was going to be promoting.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah, this is the beginning. I mean, I'm really glad you mentioned that, because when you think about what happened later, I mean, not just the. The Inoki Ali Shea Stadium thing, but through the late 70s is there segueing away from the Bruno era, getting into the Backlin era, the influence of New Japan, the relationship with New Japan, and even Mr. Shima comes in as the figurehead president.
And Vince, younger Vince and older Vince would send all their talent over there and they'd have these Madison Square Garden series tournaments in Japan, which is just a way of merging our New York talent with their talent and having these big, big shows in Japan. Very interesting how that all happened. Bruno was a big Baba guy and always loyal to Baba and refused to work on the Inoki shows out of loyalty to him. But it's just very interesting.
The relationship, like you said, is just beginning here and. And it will become very fruitful for those companies in the years to come.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Well, just another little thing about 1975 is you're right about the Baba thing.
Inoki had gained NWA membership in 1975, and. But the one stipulation was that they could not have a person on the world championship committee.
They were not going to get to vote on who the world champion was.
The Other thing was that the WWWF is an NWA member at this time too.
Which is why they were only calling their championship the WWW F championship and leaving the world designation out of it. Because to be an NWA member, you had to recognize the world champion of the NWA as the actual world champion. Which I posted in Facebook, our Facebook Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel Facebook group. Come by and join us. We have a great group of people there who post some really interesting things. I posted and Madison Square Garden program with the Bruno, where Bruno won the title in 73 from Stan Stasiak. And in the program, Jack Briscoe has a very pro. He takes up a third of the right hand side and is recognized as the NWA World Champion on the program where Bruno won the title back. I thought that was interesting.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Very interesting. That's very interesting. You know those programs which Norman Kaiser and other people were putting together back then, they just had some really interesting factoids and things in there. I mean, I remember even one of the programs I got at the matches, it had like inside, it had ratings, which is more of an after mag thing or a World Wrestling World thing, but they actually had ratings in the book. It was a top 10 and said these are the top 10 wrestlers in the World Wrestling Federation. And the interesting thing was, is that they, they use people who weren't even in the wwf. I mean they, they had, you know, maybe back when it was number one and. But in the, in the list they had people like Bill Watts. You know, it's like it was like they're trying to acknowledge people in the NWA that they had like a good relationship with. So that was very interesting.
[00:19:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, right. I'll tell you another thing that caused my head to sort of do a double take and a. Almost my head almost spun around.
In 1965, Antonio Noki made his, I don't know what they called it, Pilgrimage or whatever, where they would send the Japanese wrestler to tour North America.
And Antonio Inoki made his in 1975 and he was in Texas and the Carolinas and he was listed as Kanji Anoki.
And I, he was in Nashville, Tennessee and Antonio Inoki in the Tennessee territory. It just caused my head to do a little wobble, you know.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: That's amazing. No, but as you said, I mean, it was a time of cooperation.
It was a time where anything was really possible.
It really, it was a must have been a great time to be a fan. I mean, I was. Hadn't discovered wrestling quite yet then, but I was about to. And I know you were, you're too. If you hadn't started already.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I was a little interested. Tyke looking at wrestling. Well, Steve, thank you for shooting me the message about the discovery that you made about the Mongolian stomper. And I just said, well, shoot, let's just do a special edition.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: I'm glad you did. And let's keep doing this. Whenever we have some really good news to share or something vital to share, let's do it. And kudos to you on the big show on the Florida promotion with Howard Baum and Donald De Leon. That was one of the best shows I've heard in a long, long time. Very informative and very interesting.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Thank you. Well, I had very little to do with it other than showing up.
Howard has a longtime friendship with Don deleon, and Don was.
He was nervous about coming on the podcast, but he got, he was very excited.
And it's just, he's been thanking me over and over and over for doing this because after he gave up photography, he just quit watching the wrestling, you know, and, but, but those years in the 70s were so important to him, and he got to meet, as you heard in the podcast, got to meet so many people and be around so many of the guys.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Well, to his credit, I mean, you never would have guessed that it was his first podcast. He sounded very natural and well composed and he really did, did well. Good showing for himself as far as discussing his sport of wrestling. And Howard, of course, you know, it just, it was just like, you know, sitting in and over, eavesdropping, a great conversation about wrestling. It was just lovely to do.
[00:21:52] Speaker C: And as you and I have said, that's the best.
I mean, that's the best when you're just sitting and you're just a couple of friends and having coffee and talking wrestling and everybody else gets to listen. That's. Yeah, that's the very best. And that's what we try to do here on the show. And I'm looking forward to our Christmas super show that's coming up here in just a few days. And you're going to be back with me on that. And we're going to be recapping Bruno's world title run in 1975 as part of all the great things we have. That's going to be a big, big show. And so if people are looking for wrestling content to fill up their days over the Christmas holiday, we're going to have a lot for them in that show.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: So it'll be really good. I can't wait to hear it. Myself should be really good.
[00:22:38] Speaker C: And we wanted to do this because we didn't want to wait several weeks until your turn came back up to do wwwf. And so that's going to be something we're going to do here. If we have something that can kind of needs to come in in between, we're just going to do a special, short, special edition show. So thank you, Steve, for making time for us today.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: That's my pleasure, Tony. Always fun doing this with you and I look forward to doing it again.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: All right, everybody, I hope you enjoyed today's special edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. We got our Christmas super show coming up here in just a few days. So long from the Richards Ranch in the Bluegrass.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast. Tune in for another great episode next week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great. We'll release a new episode soon. Don't you dare miss it.
