Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Time for the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: We've got lots and lots of things
[00:00:06] Speaker C: to talk about and to do today,
[00:00:08] Speaker A: covering the territories from the 1940s to the 1990s.
[00:00:13] Speaker D: It's the best thing going today.
[00:00:18] Speaker C: Interviewing wrestlers, referees, authors and other media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: The cream, yeah, the cream of the crop. And now, here's your host, Tony Richards.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Hello again, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. Live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky, I am your host, Tony Richards, welcoming you back for a huge show today. And I'm not going to take up a lot of your time here at the beginning because I want to get on to our subject today, which is the Wrestling Observer Newsletter hall of Fame, which the balloting is going on now in the month of October, there are several hundred wrestling media people, pundits, former wrestlers, wrestlers that vote every year in Dave Meltzer's Wrestling Observer Newsletter hall of Fame. And we do a big show here. This is our second annual Wrestling observer hall of Fame show.
And today is going to be a bigger show than last year because I have brought in two additional experts to be a guest on the show and they are making their first appearance here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. So I'm excited about that.
Before we get to that, I want to thank everybody. The Magnum ta Jimmy Garvin, what if episode last week. You supported us like crazy.
Thank you so much for everybody who watched and listened to that program. It was one of the biggest shows that we've done so far.
I feel like this show today, we're going to have some blockbusters from now to the end of the year, some really big shows.
And I know you love the 76 territory stuff that we do when we go back and review a territory in 76.
So never fear, we still got plenty of those coming up before the end of the year. I just got confirmation on a very cool guest that has never been on here before with me to come on and do a territory we've never done here before. So I'm excited about that.
Next week here on the show, we're going to go to Portland 76.
And while we're up in Portland, we're going to go to Vancouver 76. So Mike Rogers, Frank Culbertson will be here to talk about Portland 76. And Steve Verrier, who wrote the biography on Gene Konisky, he wrote the biography on George Gordienko. He's written a book on wrestling in the Pacific Northwest. He will be here. My very good friend. He was at my table at the Waterloo hall of Fame this year when I won the James Melby Award. And so he's always supported me. He's always supported my show. He's always supported everything I've done. He's a very dear friend. And I can't wait to talk about Vancouver 76. And so we'll have three segments in next week's show. Portland 76, Vancouver 76. And we'll do a mailbag. We got a lot of great questions. If you've got a question for us for the mailbag, make sure you have it in by Friday, October 23rd, by the end of the day.
And we can still get it in for the mailbag here next week on the show. Man, fall, fall has hit here at the Richards ranch. 75 in the day, 45 at night. I mean, it's already down to 45 in the evenings.
And we haven't even hit the time change yet, which is coming up here in a couple of weeks.
But man, I had the other day I went out, I had a sweatshirt and, and shorts on, which is my favorite time of year for be able to wear that kind of stuff. And the leaves are falling, the colors are beautiful. Fall is my favorite season of the year. And I was so worried that we were going to go straight from summer to winter. You know what that it's like, like where you go from really, really hot. We had back in July and August, it was so hot.
And I thought, man, we're going to go straight from that into freezing cold. But we've tried. We're transitioning. That's cool. I love the spring transition and the fall transition because by the time spring comes, you're sick of winter and you're ready for it to be warmer. So spring is cool. And then by the time fall comes, you're tired of it being so hot and you're ready for it to cool off a little bit. You've kind of done everything over the summer you're going to do and all. And so 75 in the day, 45 at night, that's almost like perfect for me.
That is the Tony temperature right there.
All right. So again, I'm not going to take up too much time. We got a big show. We're going to kick off with the hall of Fame panel that I had here last year.
Steve Giannarelli is going to be here. And before I forget, Steve in this segment is going to be advocating and talking about Olie and Gene Anderson in the observer hall of Fame ballot. Now, the issue is that Olie and Gene dropped off the ballot this last year. Steve didn't know that. So it's not like he's completely unaware of what's going on. He just forgot that they dropped off. So when you hear him talking about Olie and Gene, Olie and Gene dropped off and just Olie on the ballot this year. So you can take Steve's comments as a, as a advocation for Oli. But of course Steve also is wants the grand wizard from the non wrestler category to be elected.
Also, Greg Klein is here from Greg Klein's Old School Wrestling and he of course has advocated for Morris Siegel, the Houston promoter in the non wrestler category and the Junkyard Dog both. And both just barely missed out last year. I think the Junkyard Dog was only four votes away.
So hopefully he will get in this year.
And then Brian Solomon will be joining us later on in the segment.
Of course, he has been advocating for the guy. He wrote the book on Gorilla Monsoon.
But they all have great comments. And the thing about this show is it's the Pro wrestling. Yes, it's the Wrestling observer hall of Fame. Yes. But this is the Pro Wrestling Time Total History Show. We talk about the history of professional wrestling. So when we talk about these categories and these, these wrestlers, we're talking about very historic figures.
So this is one thing I love about this particular episode and the fact that we do this show every year is because we're talking about historic figures who should be in the hall of Fame. And of course, you know, I want Roy Welch to be elected and I've campaigned very heavily for him and will continue to do so until the ballot deadline October 28th comes.
Then coming in for his first appearance here on the show will be Alan Blackstock.
He is Alan Cheapshot on social media. He's from Great Britain, a good, good friend of mine, great guy. I enjoy talking with Alan. I enjoy collaborating and commiserating with him. And this is his first appearance here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History show and he's going to do the rest of the world category.
So if you're not quite familiar with some of the wrestlers from around the world that are in this category, from Britain and Greece and France and it's an education and that's what this show is all about. It's all about educating people to the territory era.
And then Matt Farmer will be joining us here on the show. Matt has been involved with the Mexico category for years. He was just on the Wrestling observer radio show just the other day talking about the Mexico category. So you may have heard him doing that. He's coming on here to talk about the category and we go through all the there's not many people on the Mexico ballot. So we were going to go through that category and talk about each one of the candidates. And again, it's a great education about the history of wrestling in Mexico from a guy who knows his history in pro wrestling and in Mexico. So it's going to be a great show. I'm glad you're here. We are going to roll on with lots of discussion today about the Wrestling observer hall of Fame.
So thank you for joining us. Let's go to our first segment and I'm going to welcome in our panel of experts. My next guests are involved in voting as far as the Wrestling observer hall of Fame and they have their candidates that they are interested in making sure get immortalized in the in the hall of Fame. And we do a show every year about this as it's voting season right now for the Wrestling observer hall of Fame, which I believe was established in 1996.
And every year it's a big topic of conversation among wrestling fans and wrestling insiders and wrestling journalists. And so of course we must participate in that. My friends and members of our analyst group here at the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel, Steve Giannarelli and Greg Klein are here and we may have a run in of another guest here possibly before the show concludes. But Steve, how are you, man?
[00:10:08] Speaker E: I'm well, Tony. Thank you for having me on. It's great to be here with Mr. Greg Klein, someone who I recently had the pleasure of being on his podcast. We talked about Buffalo Wrestling and and this is as someone affiliated with the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel. This is one of the most important shows you do every year, Tony. So I'm really excited to be here,
[00:10:29] Speaker C: you know, and I'm glad that you guys educated me, a Southerner and not real that educated on upstate New York and surrounding area because I thought you were talking about Colorado there for a while but you were talking about a different Buffalo team. So I caught on though I'm slow but I catch on.
Greg is here with us who just recently released a book on the Texas wrestling Wars of the 1950s. How you doing my friend?
[00:10:55] Speaker D: Doing well. Thanks for having me, Tony. It's been a great season.
[00:10:58] Speaker C: How's the book selling?
[00:11:00] Speaker D: It is doing so well.
I launched a new substack, Greg Klein's Old School Wrasslin Talk in blog form and this month's sales of the Book, as a result, seem to have just taken off through the roof. I've been on with our friend Brian Solomon. Been on with. You got a nice mention from Jim Cornette and Brian Last. So things have been going really well.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: All right, good. And we had you on one of our episodes for the History of Texas Wrestling where we talked about the wrestling wars of the 1950s. And I know John wrote the Forward and Jerry is a big fan of the book. So, yeah, it's going good for you. I'm glad. Congratulations. It's a. It's a good, good book and it's about an interesting and important topic in pro wrestling history, promoters fighting. Who would have thought that that would ever go on in pro wrestling?
[00:11:55] Speaker D: Well, we'll talk a little more about it when we talk about my guy, Morris Siegel. But yeah, thank you for having me on with Briscoe and Bradshaw. That was great as well.
And I know I got some sales out of that because they came directly from my website, Greg Kleinpresents.com.
[00:12:09] Speaker C: good. I'm glad. I'm glad. All right, so let's talk about the people that you want to see get in the Wrestling observer hall of Fame. Who's someone that you're interested in, Steve?
[00:12:23] Speaker E: Well, last year when we did this exercise, the person I really pushed for was the grand wizard of Wrestling, Ernie Roth, also known as Abdullah Farouk in the Detroit promotion. And he didn't make it, but I didn't think it was right to just kind of keep going back to him.
I wanted to mention a new name this year.
I'm going to go with the. The Minnesota Wrecking Crew, Oli and Gene Anderson as a tag team.
And I feel that the Wrestling observer hall of Fame has been really kind of unfair, two tag teams in general, because there's really not that many teams in there historically.
I noticed that there's a lot of really popular teams like the Steiner Brothers and the British Bulldogs, Gordman, Goliath, a lot of teams that haven't made it yet.
So out of that group, I looked at Oli and Gene as being so significant.
I really want to push for them this year.
They had huge runs in the Carolinas and in Georgia as well.
They actually faced a lot of people who have been on this program on the pro wrestling Time Tunnel. They had matches with Dennis Stamp and Steve Kern. They had matches against Jerry Briscoe and Louis to Let.
They had matches with Bob Armstrong and Jerry Oates.
So they were around a long time. They had major feuds with Rip Hawk and Sweet Hansen with the Mongols.
They had matches with Dino Bravo and Tim Woods, Wahoo McDaniel and Johnny Weaver.
I mean they were very influential in tag team wrestling up until around the end of the 70s and Oli continued as a single star. But I feel they definitely need attention.
John McAdam, who's someone that Greg really respects, he's somebody that also mentioned that he could not believe that the Andersons are not in the hall of Fame. So I wanted to mention them as well.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: Do you think that the fact that in the video era we had Olie and Arne and that diminishes the memory of Olie and Gene? Do you think that we are far enough away, 41 years now away from the television, being Olie and Arne on television, does that hurt Olie and Gene at all that people, people just don't even know that they happened?
[00:14:55] Speaker E: You know, I guess it'd be fair to say that a lot of the younger fans have no idea. I mean, when you think about it, even, you know, Tully and Arne people are forgetting about, but they were, you know, Tully and Arn were very important in their day during the Horseman era, during the their WWF run.
But, but for people like us in this group, the wrestling observer group that are more concerned with the history of our business, of the business, I mean, you can't, you can't under emphasize how important these guys were, were real trailblazers and they, they lasted a long, long time. I mean, you know, I know Greg can confirm this, you know, on the stick to wrestling show that I do with John McAdam, we review the WWF mainly and we're looking at these teams that are there for maybe a year, year and a half. I mean, you do have teams like the Hart Foundation Demolition that had longer runs. But did anybody have a longer run than the Andersons? I mean they were around for, for almost the entire decade of the 70s and, and just dominated the areas they, they were in. They were dominated the Carolinas and dominated Georgia. So if you're talking about, well, I want the Steiners to be in the hall of Fame or I want the British Bulldogs to be in the hall of Fame. Those are, those are sexy picks.
Without Gene and, and Oli, I don't think there would have been the Steiners or these other teams.
[00:16:24] Speaker C: Well, you brought up a good thing. You brought up Oli or you brought up Arn and Tully.
And Arn and Tully may even overshadow Oli and Arn because Oli and Arn were the Minnesota Wrecking crew. There from 85 until, well, right around the beginning of 87, Oli turned baby Face as he.
[00:16:45] Speaker E: And they even teamed together. I think even in 1990 they were still teaming briefly. Yes, only and Arn. But it's just. It's just the way time is and people forget things and you know, and tv, I mean, we've all been watching wrestling TV and they never mentioned Oli and Gene Anderson or the Wrecking Crew or any of that. So.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: And if you're a younger journalist and you're watching the show right now or listening, I don't blame you. The fact that you're the age that you are and that you don't know some of these things. But let me tell you, if you go far enough back to the late 60s, you'll even find out. The wrecking crew was a three man team.
Olie and Lars and Gene.
But Gene was the original Anderson and then Al Rogowski joined the team and Lars kind of went off to do his own thing. But I think it's a good pick. I mean, I definitely think Gene and Oli, I mean they dominated the 1970s with the NWA World Tag Team title that was based out of Charlotte and the Crockett promotion. And they did the ultimate sacrifice finishing move.
Right now if you go back 50 years ago to 1976, the hot angle was that Olie was wearing a cast on his arm and people were wondering if his injury was still legitimate or if he was wearing the cast to cheat as a heel. Just a great, great example of how a masterful booker like George Scott, who's also on the ballot, I'm gonna get a plug in for George.
George Scott was a masterful booker who took a small little thing like an arm cast and made an entire heat spot out of it.
Not even in a match, but just on interviews and fans in the Carolinas going nuts. And they did eventually did a match where the cast was banned and Oli couldn't wear the cast and that, you know, the Babyface fans were going crazy because the, you know, the authority in Crockett Promotions had stood up for what's right and they made him take that cast off. And I'm just trying to tell you that the team of Oli and Gene Anderson were a hot commodity in the 1970s.
[00:19:09] Speaker E: Well, I appreciate you backing me up. And I will say that I guess there's no coincidence that George Scott was the booker When Bob Orton Jr. Started wearing a cast in the WWF all those years later.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: Same deal, man. And I've told you many Times that as I watched the WWF in 1984 and 85, I felt like I was watching Crockett all over again, you know, which people did. People didn't know. You know, they didn't know. It was an era when the media was not quite as penetrative and we didn't know that stuff. All right, Greg, who's, who's one of your candidates? You talk about Siegel or the dog? Which one?
[00:19:47] Speaker D: Well, let me just jump in and echo what you guys said about the Anderson and just say, you know, I don't want to be negative about anybody it know in any way, but I would like to ask the voters, and I'm not a voter, but I'm, I'm an advocate, obviously a historian.
I would like some consistency in terms of longevity.
So we're going to talk about the junkyard dog in just a minute. But if, if the junkyard dog had a 10 year run and that's not enough, then Tully and Arn with a great two year run doesn't cut the mustard for me. Whereas the Andersons or say Gordman and Goliath, who have decades of main event tag team revolutionary work, those two tag teams, I think are quintessential hall of Fame tag teams. And I get the distinction between being on TV in a hot period and being in a popular team for a year and being a team that was a main event drawing tag team in the case of Gordman and Goliath, from California to Texas to Mexico, two countries, and individually or as a tag team were hot for an incredibly long period of time. And the Andersons were the same way. And you and I have talked about this, Tony, comparing them when Dennis Condrey died to Hickerson and Condrey, the big bully tag team that uses wrestling skill but still does it in a way that, you know, the cut the ring off, the work on a body part, the make you scream out a submission.
That is quintessential tag team wrestling. And they were one of the prototypes of that.
So I think that's a Hall of Fame tag team right there. And then the other question that you asked, the answer is absolutely, and I'll answer it this way. Do we forget about, say, DiBiase and Steve Dr. Death Williams because they had more famous tag teams later? Yes. Do we forget about Ricky Morton and Ken Lucas because of the Rock and Roll Express or the Gibson Brothers because of the Rock and Roll Express? Yes.
And those were as good as the Rock and Roll Express. They were the prototype of the Rock and Roll Express as both those guys were perfecting their ways, learning from their elders, literally. In Ruben's case, his big brother, who was a huge star that we've forgotten about.
Same thing with Ricky Morton and ken Lucas. So 100% what we saw, you know, it's like how we talked about last year, the last look of what you see of somebody.
This is dated. But the Joe Namath with the LA Rams can sometimes taint your view and especially for the young guys. The. The if there's any modern wrestlers watching this.
And and so that's a great preface to say don't look at Junkyard Dog in 1990, 1991, look at Junkyard Dog in 1990, 77, look at Junkyard Dog In 1982. Look at Junkyard Dog in the WWF in 1985 and 1986 if you want to.
So with that said and a word for, you know, Steve's pick and the tag teams, the Junkyard Dog is probably on the cusp of getting in. He's exactly where Paul or Derf was a year ago.
So I think with a little more push and a little more education and we're going to be doing that on my blog all month actually tomorrow's Monday, you know, it'll be up by the time this is up.
Is the first part. Year one.
[00:23:21] Speaker C: What date would it be? September 21st.
[00:23:23] Speaker D: September 21st.
[00:23:24] Speaker C: Okay, good. And let me throw in two things about what you said before you go on with the Junkyard Dog. One, one thing was I just wrote in a piece that I just did about the Tennessee territory in 76 that Hickerson and Condrey were a team as opposed to two heels working together.
There were tag teams where they were just two heels that were put together that worked on the same group. But a real team, you can tell the difference, you know, in a real tag team that work together and they're synchronized and they have moves that flow easily.
Also, I wanted to point out that just while we were doing the segment here I got the email from Dave about the hall of Fame and he does point out in the email longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run. Unless someone is so significant that they are a trend setter or a historical figure in the business or valuable to the industry, they need to be included.
Longevity without being either a long term main event or a top draw or a top caliber in ring performer should be seen by relatively meaningless.
Should be seen as relatively meaningless. So he is pointing out to the voters that longevity should be A prime consideration to your point.
[00:24:50] Speaker D: Yeah, but I just don't know if it's been applied uniquely, you know, to tag teams, which just kind of joined the conversation a couple years ago. And that's part of the problem is, you know, when you change the parameters, you have to sort of reestablish some boundaries. But anyway, so what I was going to say about the Junkyard Dog is if you look at Paul Orendorf's career and you look at the Junkyard Dog's career, it's, it's. They're basically parallel in terms of a great 10 year run. Polandorff got a little hotter, a little quicker, and then he had a little higher peak in the wwf. But Junkyard Dog was a bigger star in the territories. Never had to travel around the territories. And then, you know, Dave said something and you just quoted him. The historic nature of a candidate. So in the history of professional wrestling, territories which you and I have done a lot of work documenting from the 20s to the 80s, essentially, right, there's one black wrestler that was made the undeniable star of the territory. Not a gimmick attraction, not the guy challenging for the belt that wins it for a week like Bobo Brazil, not a heel like Ernie Ladd who comes in for a season and is the guy that, you know, the monster heel, the absolute star centered around the territory. And it just so happens to be one of our favorites, Mid South. It just so happened to be in the Deep south, which sounds weird until you learn something about the Deep South.
And it worked. It worked spectacularly well.
And you know, we've documented on my platforms pretty well the Superdome shows. In the Superdome era, there's about 32 shows and if you put them on a graph and say which ones were the best ones, they're almost all Junkyard Dog era shows. And as soon as he leaves, there's like one show that's still in that top range, August of 84 and he was advertised on that show, so. And then after that it just falls off the map. And by 1986, which most of us remember as a hot period for the uwf, quote unquote, the Superdome is dead, absolutely dead. And, and you know, there's obviously there were some economic reasons. There's a famous Bill Watts quote that I won't go into because it's a little, you know, PG 13/R rated. But you know, the Junkyard Dog was a unique performer and I feel like some of the knocks against him aren't really fair. They date to the era when he's between 35 and 40 and his knees are going, his back's going, his drug problem is happening, and he's already had three hard years of life on the WWF road of 300 something matches. You know, all corners. But even during his WWF era, like, I feel like he's much like Hacksaw Duggan, where we look at his WCW stuff and think it was his WWF stuff. Junkyard Dog was the second biggest baby face in the national expansion era in the wwf.
And think about it this way.
When they signed him, they had Rocky Johnson, Tony Atlas and Bobo Brazil on their roster.
None of those other guys, those are all the biggest stars of the 60s and 70s. For the single black star that comes into a territory A, none of those guys were ever the center of a territory B, none of those guys got a wrestling doll. None of those guys were the star of the cartoon on cbs.
None of those guys were in the very first Saturday night's main event. None of those guys were on WrestleMania. Tony Atlas was still in the WWF in that era. You know what he does the month before WrestleMania? He puts over Paul Orndorff in Madison Square Garden.
You know, Junkyard Dog was the best of the best.
And he bridges two eras. He goes from the territory era where he's unique, and then he sort of takes a step back and becomes the old school black star in the national expansion era. But he is the guy that. And for 85 and 86.
I would challenge people who say that his matches are awful because I can point you to a bunch of good matches, including what was thought of as the match of the year in the Wrestling observer in 1986. The best match on WrestleMania 2, which is a tag team match with him and Tito Santana against the Funks. And then they have a follow up where he's teaming with Hulk Hogan against the Funks on Saturday night. Main event. There's also the Wrestling Classic that year, the year before. There's a bunch of matches with him and Sergeant Slaughter against Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkov. I would tell you that the Greg Valentine match at WrestleMania is very good.
I mean, he's just. He is what he is as a worker, but I think he's sort of underrated at this point. And we won't go into all the reasons why. And again, I do stipulate that his work rate does go down at some point.
But look at him in Mid South. I mean, he is who he is and he is actually in a lot of great matches with a Lot of great workers and a unique draw that was never ever in the territory era matched.
[00:30:14] Speaker C: I would say I would remind people of something that I am fond of talking about.
That work rate was never something that was ever talked about in the wrestling business before the observer came out.
[00:30:34] Speaker D: It's a made up concept and that's okay. It's like, you know, we've made up stats for baseball and things like that, but it's not what wrestling was judged on in Junkyard Dog's era.
[00:30:45] Speaker C: And so that being said, there are.
It comes down to what people call a great performer.
And having superstar long matches with a lot of spots and high spots and all of that is not necessarily what a great performer was in the wrestling business.
Jimmy Valiant was a great performer, but his matches were somewhere around 8 to 10 minutes long.
And they're all basically uniquely the same. But there's something about Jimmy Valiant that when he hit the ring or when he did an interview or when he came out that people just loved it. Whether he was a baby face or a heel, Sputnik Monroe was not necessarily a great worker, but he just influenced people in a way that I think made him a great performer. Abdullah the Butcher doesn't have a super body or an amazing amount of work rate or anything like that, but he was one of the great performers of our business. So to me, a great performer is someone who is very much like a junkyard dog that while, yeah, he's not putting abdominal stretches on people and he's not doing Canadian Destroyers, but he was a fabulous performer in our business who drew a ton of money and definitely is deserving.
Now Steve, I ask you a question because we've talked about this, but on our various mailbag segments we do and also a lot of feedback that I get. People have asked why didn't the Junkyard Dog get an Intercontinental title run?
Like, why do you think that was?
[00:32:38] Speaker E: Well, I think it, I think that there was a decision made along the way. I don't know who made the decision. I'm sure it wasn't Finn's, but it just seemed like in that mid-80s time frame it was Pat Paris and maybe it was George Scott.
I think that they felt that the Intercontinental belt was your worker's belt. Let's put it on Savage, let's put it on Tito, Santana, these really, you know, top caliber workers. And, and that was a good theory. But you know, getting to what Greg is saying about JYD, JYD's level of charisma was so much more than any of the Other wrestlers. I mean, I'm not talking about Hogan. Hogan was in his own realm. But if you go to the next realm, JYD was there. I mean, there were certain wrestlers, you know, Bruno being another.
They had that charisma that was just, you know, maybe transcended the business in Bruno's case and in Hogan's case. But I think you can make a case for J. White, jyd too, because like Greg said, he was on that CBS cartoon. He was on the first Saturday night's main event. He was featured prominently at WrestleMania 1 and 2 and 3.
And he just, you know, the way I've always looked at it is that after Hogan, the top baby faces in the WWF were jyd, Steamboat, Santana, and Horndorf. But JYD was kind of the greatest of that group because of his charisma, because he.
Everybody was attracted to him. Everybody wanted him to be their guy more. More so than the others. I mean, Steamboat is probably the greatest baby face worker of all time. Santana is one of the most consistent. Orndorff is superb. But JYD just transcended all that. So if he makes it, Greg, and you've done a great job making a case for him, I will be very happy if he makes it.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: Amen.
[00:34:36] Speaker D: Me too. But I would echo what Steve said, You know, think about it. That summer, Valentine's facing three guys. Steamboat, Santana, and jyd. So, yeah, it would have been great to switch the title at WrestleMania and then have Valentine win it back a month or two later, cheating. But he was also in a program with Santana.
Obviously, Steamboat is the one they go to during the Savage era. Think about this. The WrestleMania one, they switch all the other titles, right? I mean, the WWF title is not on the line, but they switched the tag team titles. They switched the women's title, right? So, you know, you wouldn't necessarily switch every single title on a show like that. So they do a DQ and they get out of it, and they have a summer of junkyard dog chase.
[00:35:28] Speaker C: We have a glitch there with.
See if Greg catches up here on his Internet buffering.
[00:35:37] Speaker D: Really?
[00:35:38] Speaker C: I'm a little Internet buffering. Go ahead. We lost you about halfway through, dude.
[00:35:45] Speaker D: Well, no, I was just saying that the three of them are chasing Valentine, and that's what they decided they wanted in the house shows. They didn't want one of them necessarily, you know, until they switched the title back to Santana. They wanted the three baby faces to chase the heel champion, which was different than what they had with Hogan. They already switched two other titles on WrestleMania so you could have. But you could also argue JYD didn't need a title, right?
[00:36:09] Speaker C: Well, I was going to say in the, in the 50s, 60s and 70s, the whole title structure was different than it was in the 80s, 90s and going into the modern era.
But we often talk about wrestlers who don't need a title. Was JYD one of those people,
[00:36:25] Speaker A: you
[00:36:25] Speaker D: know, they often kept the title away from him in Mid south, or at least the main title, so that he could chase rather than have it. You know, so much so that famously they took it off him the day after or a couple days after he won it from Bob Roop, finally. So, you know, with the big Ted DiBiase angle.
[00:36:42] Speaker C: And the money's always, you know, in the chase, you know, especially if the main event or whatever.
[00:36:48] Speaker D: One last thing we should mention, the Dog's Yard, the downtown Municipal auditorium in New Orleans. You know, they ran a Monday night weekly town, and it, it only was opened up to the full effect, 7,000 seats during the Junkyard Dog era. As soon as he leaves, they shut it down to half the size. Before he was there, they ran in St. Bernard parish. We talk about different arenas and why all the time, Tony.
They ran in a more rednecky area where they served their clientele. Dick Murdoch and Carl Cox and Bill Watts. As soon as they get the Junkyard Dog, they open up the downtown Municipal Auditorium in Treme, made famous by, you know, the HBO show, but more so as a famous black community in New Orleans, known for music and culture and food and just, you know, the heart of New Orleans really, right on the edge of downtown, right next to the Superdome.
That was the Dog's Yard. It was his place. And you know, how many wrestlers, you know, Jerry Lawler for a longer period in Memphis, but you know, that's not called the King's Yard, right?
And you know, Junkyard Dog was the king of Houston for a while. They gave him a crown. He was the uncrowned champion of Houston, much as they had done with Wahoo McDaniel. So he was a very big figure in Bill Watts getting Houston away from Southwest and partnering with Paul Bosch, you know, ultimately pushing Bockwinkel out of the picture as well. So he's just a very historic figure. 1982 is arguably his best in ring year, best drawing year in Mid south, or at least one of three or four of his best drawing years in Mid South. And you know what happens in 1982? Mid south doubles its size, adds Houston, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Arkansas to that little Mississippi Louisiana territory that we love.
[00:38:39] Speaker E: I want to add one more thing. In 87, the WWF kind of decided no longer to push him, but they needed his body, they needed him on the roster at some point because they had a injury suspension. Steamboat went away because of his baby and all this, but he came back and eventually he gets in this long running feud with Ron Bass.
And those matches are actually entertaining and, and he's getting a huge reaction. The reaction never changed. I mean the fans were always way behind him, but the promotion was no longer behind him. And he ends up staying with the promotion, you know, longer. But you know, he gets, he never, he never really loses his popularity is what I'm trying to say.
[00:39:24] Speaker D: No, but good, good point because what does he do on WrestleMania 3? He puts over Harley Race, who's about to have a summer feud with Hulk Hogan. So he's in the Ivan Putsky Chief J Strongbow role where he's the number two Bab Babyface setting somebody up for Hulk Hogan. And then even, you know, his, his Swan song in WrestleMania 4, he's in the Battle Royal.
[00:39:45] Speaker E: Right?
[00:39:45] Speaker D: But he's the last baby face in the Battle Royal. So he's still the junkyard dog. And yes, you know, people talk about the fact that he failed or Ole Anderson's booking failed, you know, in WCW in that era. Well, A, Ole Anderson was not being a great booker in that era had lost some of its luster. And B, if he put JYD in a spot that he wasn't fit for, that's partially the promotion and the booker's fault. And again, you know, by then we've, we're in like year 14, year 15. I'm really talking about his first 10 years in the business, which again, same thing with Paul Orndorff. It's just a meteoric rise and a spectacular career, history making career. And I think 10 years is probably the longevity point where we have to start saying, okay, that's where we can really look at these performers as having a Hall of Fame career. Just my two cents you brought up.
[00:40:39] Speaker C: And I got a couple of things to say about a lot of that stuff that we just talk about there. But one thing is the most recent comment and Oli's on the ballot again this year. Ole Anderson. And regarding his booking, he's a very difficult booker to get your arms around because he had some stretches where he was really good and he had some stretches where he was absolutely horrible.
And if you, and you have to take his disposition into consideration, you know, I think on Shoot Interviews or whatever, he just kind of took them as a big joke and he wasn't really that serious about talking about the business and he just kind of, you know, he was in ole Anderson mode for a lot of those shoot interviews. But at the same time, if you carefully watch or listen to any of those interviews with him, you will discover that he put about this much thought into every bit of booking that he ever did.
You know, he basically just took guys and told them, yeah, yeah, go out there, have your match, you know, but you're, you got two minutes on your interview or whatever. He was not a very intricate and detail oriented booker, like not a finished guy.
[00:41:59] Speaker D: His, his storylines were good, but they were a little klutzy, they were a little soap opera and, but also he was not, he did not care in wcw.
He was, he was just doing what stupid people asked him to do because he was like, they own the company or they run the company and I'm just getting a paycheck, whatever you want, you know. Black Scorpion. Sure.
You know, Ding Dongs. Okay, Hunchbacks. That sounds like a great idea, Jim.
So yeah, it is tough, you know, but I think as a tag team and even as a single, just a revolutionary performer. So I would even vote him in more as a wrestler than a booker, to be very honest.
[00:42:40] Speaker C: So I was just about to say that I don't, I think he was independently wealthy by the time 1990 rolled around.
And so I don't think he needed the paycheck. I think he was just writing it as long as they were going to take the paycheck.
[00:42:54] Speaker D: There's a difference.
[00:42:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So I don't, I don't, you know, I just don't think he was, that was not one of his better stretches as a booker. Gorman and Goliath was brought up who are on the ballot. And right now I am of course talking about the fall of 1976 on most of my social media posts or whatever and Gordon and Goliath also recently I had the last interview that I did with Jerry Oates and the Oates brothers worked with Gordman and Goliath in the summer of 76 in Georgia. Jerry had always been more critical of Gordman and Goliath as a team and did not think a lot of them. So when I talked to him this last interview, I was very specific. I wanted to know exactly why he did not think a lot of them. And he said it was basically the in ring stuff. It wasn't anything a fan would know or think of. When they watched matches or whatever, but in the ring, working with them, they worked a lot of lucha stuff.
They were not, I mean, the people in Georgia were not used to working lucha libre style or working the other, working the other side of the body and doing spots that he wasn't familiar with, whereas working with the Cormier brothers in Kansas City. Now, Jerry didn't say this on this particular interview, but he said it on another interview I did with him that he had. He and Ted Oates had matches with the Cormier brothers from Canada and had great matches with them. And the Cormiers were even calling the spots in French.
So, you know, I think it just depends on the chemistry of the workers involved.
I didn't realize until I got to the fall of 76 that Gorman and Goliath worked the Kansas City territory and had the tag team titles there for a stretch.
So the Andersons, who we talked about earlier, Ole and Jean, worked three territories pretty much. They worked the Carolinas, they worked Georgia, and they worked a little bit in championship wrestling from Florida. But they drew enough money and had a long enough stretch of being on top. They didn't really need to work anywhere else.
Gorman and Goliath gets a knock on them for just being Southern California. And that's not true. They worked in West Texas.
They had three or four great runs in West Texas. They had a good run in Georgia. The Georgia fans really didn't get it, but they had a good run. They won the Georgia tag team titles and then they went to Central States and won the titles there and had a pretty good run. So I think Gordman and Goliath are very deserving of getting in. And I hope they get votes this year and get in.
[00:45:37] Speaker D: They were big stars in Houston. And not only that, there's a picture that circulates of them in the Houston programs. It may have come from California or someplace else where they're wearing these two shirts and it's a black and white photo so far that I've been able to find. But when I want to show people what the 1970s looked like, I show them this picture of Gordman and Goliath in, in their 1970s button up shirts with floral print. And I mean it's black and white and you can see the beige, like it's just quintessential. And that's, that's to me what they are. And, and I think the 1970s era guys get hurt a lot by a. How they look in the 1980s. You know, the squash match With Andre the Giant, for instance, you know, times when they're not headline acts and then we don't have so much of their good work, you know, from certain places, obviously we don't have a lot of their California stuff. We don't have, you know, south of the border stuff. We don't get to see the house shows, you know, So I don't know.
I mean, I think they're a main
[00:46:43] Speaker C: event by the hall of Fame tag team, by the way, from someone from that generation, I could tell you that was called the mod look, Greg, the Mod Squad look. The floral, multicolored cool. That was. That was a little before my time,
[00:47:01] Speaker D: but I remember just enough to go, wow, that was a weird era.
[00:47:05] Speaker C: What was that movie? The guy, Austin Powers.
Watch a little of that, you'll get a lot of mod look, you know,
[00:47:14] Speaker D: Steve Portman and Goliath. And a mod look is quite a. Quite a look, you know, I like
[00:47:18] Speaker C: it, I like it. It reminds me of my childhood.
Steve, who's another person you want to advocate for or you think should be going in?
[00:47:26] Speaker E: Well, I mentioned him briefly last year, but Jesse, Jesse Ventura is still not in. And I'm not advocating for him as a wrestler, but as a color commentator. I mean, I can't imagine the national expansion WWF without Jesse Ventura. I can't imagine the first six WrestleManias which he did with Monsoon without Jesse Ventura. I mean, to me, he added so much to those programs. He was the heel commentator. He brought that, that bravado and that Jesse Ventura personality to the promotion. And he was so different than Vince McMahon and Gorilla Monsoon and the other people. And I think Jesse really needs to be acknowledged for his importance because, you know, he really conveyed that like Rolling Stone, you know, edge of unpredictability, wildness, rebellion.
I think he, he really represented that rock and roll mentality well. And he seemed very major league, like a major league personality to me as a commentator. And I think he. His importance right now is being undervalued. And I think his importance should be hall of Fame worthy.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: That's.
[00:48:45] Speaker E: That's my opinion.
[00:48:48] Speaker C: In Portland, he was known as the Great Ventura.
Greg, you got any thoughts on Jesse?
[00:48:55] Speaker D: Yes, I think that he belongs as a wrestling commentator and wrestling personality.
I always think that guys that transcend wrestling, we have to mention sort of in a special category and in a special way. So, you know, when people don't understand Hulk Hogan, I mean, that doesn't happen a lot. But you point them to like Hulk Hogan in Rocky, right? In Rocky 3. And you have to talk about his cultural effect in the early 1980s and why it carries over with Jesse Ventura. He not only becomes a big movie star in the late 80s or early 1990s, but he becomes governor of Minnesota based on this era of success. And he really transforms the color commentating post into this heel. I know it'd been done before, I know other people did it. But he's the guy that takes it national in a sense where you have this heel color commentator who's so witty and funny that he's cool and yet he's copying superstar Graham and to a little bit Hulk Hogan or vice versa. They influenced each other, but he's the one that takes it national. And so we, you know, you have to really think about like his effect on society. And Steve's right. This is the era of MTV Cool Wrestling. And he's one of those guys and he and McMahon and he and Gorilla. I was thinking about this just in a weird sort of way. I have a stuffed teddy bear that a college girlfriend gave me and his name is Jesse because she knew I liked wrestling. And somehow we called him Jessie Bear like instead of teddy bear like. That is Jesse Ventura's influence on late 80s, early 90s culture.
So the fact that he was a, a good wrestler, a main event wrestler, a great interview that then transcended that into both being a, you know, state of the art commentator and a, you know, cultural figure for a half decade, I think that's really important.
[00:51:07] Speaker C: Well, just to remind everybody, Jesse is in the non wrestler category and that is a crowded field.
So I think it would be difficult for him.
It's difficult for anybody to break out of that, that, that non wrestler, that's. It's the biggest category as far as
[00:51:28] Speaker E: that's where the grand wizard is as well. And I, I really would love to see him in because his, the two, the two people closest to him by comparison would be Albano and Blassie. I know Blassie had the. Was a great legendary wrestler, but those were the, the three wise men of the east or the three heel managers. So I think that they all need to be in there.
[00:51:50] Speaker D: You know, in the Baseball hall of Fame you have to. They only get 10 votes. So people are very picky about using their 10 votes and how they use their 10 votes and whatever you have to clear some guys out for the next people to step up and be considered. But I think he's worthy.
[00:52:04] Speaker C: Just a couple of guys that I mentioned last year that I want to mention again this year in the Historical performers category.
One of them is Bullet Bob Armstrong.
And Bob had a tremendous run. Most people are familiar with him in the 80s, after his majority of his run was over. I mean, he broke in in the late 60s. He was a fireman from Marietta, Georgia.
Got involved with Georgia championship wrestling, got trained, broke into the business, worked for years in the Georgia territory. Worked in the Florida territory, worked in Tennessee quite a bit. Some people forget that he was in the Tennessee territory. Held the Southern heavyweight title a couple of times. He held the Mid America title. As a matter of fact, he held the Southern title in both Florida and Tennessee, both versions. Was a perennial Georgia heavyweight champion.
And of course, the father and patriarch of the legendary Armstrong family. With so many of his boys getting in the business, best known is probably Road Dog by now. It used to be Brad was probably the best known. But because of his years of being in the New Age Outlaws and his work behind the scenes in the wwe, I would say Brian is probably the most well known son. But he also had Scott, he had Steve, he had other sons in the business.
But Bob, I don't think. I think some. Each one of the boys got a piece of Bob. I don't think any of them got the whole package.
Bob was just a tremendous interview. He was a great performer. Fans love to get behind him. You guys have any thoughts on Bob Armstrong?
[00:53:53] Speaker D: Well, you know, I do. He was one of my favorite wrestlers. He was the best wrestler I ever saw live. I spent the summer of 1996 in locker rooms with him and then would go out to watch his matches with Barry Bull Buchanan. And he was in his mid-50s. He would take one bump, a backdrop where it would look like, you know, Bull was going to launch him up into the lights and Bob was going to die as he came down. And then he would do his Bob Armstrong thing and land perfectly. And if you know, you know how to take a bump, I mean, just, you know, palms down, heels down, you know, jaw clenched, tongue in the whole works. And, you know, he was wearing a mask in this era. And people say it's hard to show emotions with a mask, not when you're Bob Armstrong. Like, everybody knew who the Bullet was and it didn't matter. It was not one of those gimmicks where it was Charlie Brown from out of town for a couple of months or Stagger Lee or the Midnight Rider.
He was literally wearing the mask because it helped his nose and his face after the accident with the weightlifting in 82 or 83. But again, he's, you know, pushing 50. Go watch the Crockett cup from 1987. Bob and Brad are excellent. And they pushed them all the way into like the semifinals against Tully and Arn. And that match is excellent.
Bob was a quintessential worker. I would say that he is in the conversation for Mount Rushmore of wrestlers in Alabama and in Georgia, and so that's two states and then maybe East Tennessee as well.
He was a fantastic booker. He was a partner with the Welshes, you know, owned a little piece of the territory.
The Armstrong boys were the vaux of Alabama. People don't understand that they had, they made so much money, I don't want to rap them out to the IRS or anything. They made so much money off of the gimmick table and they had women that would follow them around and sell gimmicks for them. And you know, the boys, I always say, you know, people that know the Armstrongs will understand what I mean. They weren't a wholesome family necessarily, but they were like wrestling wholesome. The reason that you don't know Bob Armstrong and his great work in the AWA or in New York is because Bob liked to be home every night. And the reason the boys loved the business is because their dad loved the business. And he was home every night to tell them that he also loved them. And so they grew up watching him in the business. And you're probably right, part of me died a little bit when you said a Road Dog would be the most famous son.
Because I think all of the other boys had something more maybe to offer. But Road Dog is a great interview, was in a great tag team in the right time period of a hot period that everybody remembers.
Steve Armstrong is the forgotten Armstrong brother. Steve was fantastic. Steve probably did have everything that it took to be a bigger star than anybody else. He had the look, he had the work. He was a good interview. Not great maybe, but a good interview. He could play the guitar. That gimmick, you know, the Lance Cassidy gimmick, was getting over Steve, you know, what he inherited from Bob. He wanted to be home with his wife. He didn't want to be on the road. He didn't want to be divorced. He wanted to be home with his kids. And so he took a lesser role in the business as Scott's tag team partner in a mid card tag team in WCW because they were getting $75,000 a year to be jobbers, essentially, and they couldn't turn that down. But they also supplemented that with their gimmick work and their $300 a night, you know, Legends of Alabama. And you know, I thought it was so sweet. They used to drive Bob around and then they'd all make more money because of it. And you know, they referred to him as the Bullet. I thought that was cute.
They just were good, wholesome in quotes.
Alabama workers, of course, they lived in Gulf Breezes at the end, but from Marietta, you know, you and I talked about Tony, the Georgia wrestling war when we talked about it with Roy Lee Welsh in Iowa.
One of the reasons the Georgia territory hangs on is because Bob Armstrong stays and they elevate him into their biggest star and, and he's what they have left. And that was enough. You know, then they bring in the cavalry. But you know, just one of the greatest wrestlers that I've ever been around. And I feel like I learned from him through osmosis. Just little, little bitty things that you would learn from being around a veteran. And again, his emotions were second to none. People talk about ring psychology of like a Jake Roberts or Raven or somebody like that. Bob Armstrong was that way. Every twitch, every move, every muscle, the, you know, this kind of thing that he would do. The bow legged walk that he would do.
When I hear bad to the bone, that's the wrestler I think of. Your mileage may vary. I think of Bob Armstrong and again, I mean, you know, in Alabama and Georgia, top four guys in the history of those states, really a bigger star than we realize.
[00:59:07] Speaker C: What do you think?
[00:59:08] Speaker E: I say if the observer voters could hear what you two fellas just said, he would, he would get in easily and I hope, I hope he does.
[00:59:19] Speaker C: Another person that I wanted to mention is Dick Murdoch.
Dick has been on the ballot for quite some time from West Texas. Made his debut in 1965 was he made his debut as a brother of Don Carter Carson. Sorry, why? I loved that Don Carson in Tennessee, he was Ron Carson in the Carson Brothers tag team that I think that's the only time he wrestled as a different identity. But of course he was Dick Murdoch for years.
I just talked about his dad, the fabulous Texan Frank Frankie Murdoch. On the history of Texas wrestling. Steve, you have thoughts about Dick Murdoch,
[01:00:05] Speaker E: you know, as a New York guy, upstate New York, I mean the first time I saw was that run with, with Adrian Adonis and I, I will say, and maybe Greg will agree with me, that's probably the best team we've ever seen before since Adonis and Murdoch. I don't think any team ever really topped them. I mean the Bulldogs were maybe better at what they did, which was unique, but they were like nothing we'd ever seen before since.
And Dick Murdoch was so good in the ring, even when he was ready to just end his career. I think Bob Backlin was going to wrestle Scott hall, young Scott hall in the WWF before he became. No, he may have been. I think it was Razor Ramon against Bob Backlink.
And Scott hall was so kind of insecure of wrestling. Backlin didn't know how to wrestle him. He says, I want Dick Murdoch in there to take the bumps. So he had Dick Murdoch in there as like a third man in the ring type thing, like as a second. But I mean Dick Murdoch, I know people don't take him seriously because he was somebody who liked to have fun in the ring and he could be goofy and fun, but his ability was second to none. I mean his ability was getting close to that Terry Funk area, that Harley race area, that super, super high echelon area. And I think he needs to be in the conversation.
[01:01:24] Speaker C: I almost think that Dick had a self sabotage thing. I think he, some of them do. I think he didn't want a lot of responsibility like he would have. People talk about the fact that he could have been world champion if he wouldn't have messed around, but I almost think that was. He was doing self sabotage. Like I think he knew that he wasn't going to get the title if he did crazy funky stuff in front of Mushnik in St. Louis. And I think he did it on purpose. I don't think he wanted the responsibility of the title. I think he just wanted to be Dick Murdoch.
Any thoughts on Dick, Greg?
[01:02:03] Speaker D: Well, you have to mention his tag team with Dusty Rhodes. Obviously that, you know, we don't have a lot of tape of them because of the era that they're a hot tag team.
Also he was the biggest star in, you know, the beginning of the Mid south end of Tri State era. He is, you know, he was a headlining territory star both as a baby face and as a heel. He's involved in one of the biggest angles in Mid south wrestling history when he turns heel on Ted Dibiase, which we all think of as one of the quintessential Mid south angles really right at the end of Mid South.
He is, as Steven said, he's a complicated guy. We're not even getting into his personal legacy because that's. You don't talk about that for the wrestling hall of Fames. But as a worker I do agree. I think that, you know, he was a crusher in a Sense he was a, he was fantastic. But he wanted, he would prefer to go drink beer and go on vacation and go to Japan and be in there with, you know, goofing around with killer Carl Cox. Then he would necessarily be the best wrestling, you know. But again, I don't know. I have this vision of the future of professional wrestling where it's like Dave Meltzer and two of his acolytes at ringside and they're holding up cue cards as to, you know, scoring the match. And they say, well, you know, you only got 6.3 moves in per minute and that's that. That is very bad.
There was 16 seconds between each move and I don't like that you slipped up on the Kensai Fifi flip and you know, that is, your form was off. It was very bad on the flip. So we're gonna, you know, take off a point and a half for that. But you know what, the crowd was very into it. So I'll give you my score next week.
You know, I, I don't want to.
Dick Murdoch was a main event wrestler who was very good.
And, and you know, Dave Meltzer himself has said that maybe we're, you know, he is the, the line between the hall of Very Good and the hall of Fame.
I'm on a Hall of Fame board for local athletics where I hear that term, I'm gonna say four or five times a year or a session. It's. We do it every other year. But.
So, yeah, it's an interesting conversation. But as far as workers go, as far as second generation guys, we were talking about this, I was talking about this with George Shire the other day.
You know, second generation guys are either the biggest, craziest, you know, screw ups that you've ever met or the best workers that ever existed. And Dick Murdoch may be straddling the line of both.
[01:04:44] Speaker C: I, I've talked about this quite a bit lately. It's kind of been one of my things that I have gone back to over and over again. But I enjoy matches where there are mistakes.
I like matches where everything isn't perfect. I like matches where people, because that's what would happen in a real competition is there would be slip ups and mistakes. I recently posted a.
You know, Bill Dundee made his baby face turn in the fall of 76 by saving Eddie Marlin from the interns and Dr. Ken Ramey. And we have a tape of a, of a match in the Mid South Coliseum. That was a follow up there. Hey, Brian.
[01:05:26] Speaker F: Sorry.
[01:05:28] Speaker C: Eddie Marlin and Bill Dundee is a Tag team against the interns and Dundee whips one of the interns who were very large, big old burly guys. Jim Starr was a big burly wrestler and he whips star into the corner and he comes staggering out of the corner and he takes a backdrop from Dundee and he sort of rolls over the side of Dundee and I'm like, yes, that is good old wrestling right there. That he didn't take that as a perfect backdrop with a high flip and land on his back perfectly and all. And I like that. I like it where there's some wobble in the match because in a real life competition, that's what would happen.
Speaking of Bill Dundee, Brian, you're just in time.
We just recently lost the superstar at the time of this recording. His funeral was this last Thursday. He is on the hall of Fame ballot. I expect him to get somewhat of a bump this year. What are your thoughts about.
Let's, let's have you come in hot here. What are your thoughts about Bill Dundee and the Wrestling observer hall of Fame?
[01:06:33] Speaker F: Well, he's a great example of what I talk about a lot, which is, and you guys, maybe you mentioned this kind of thing before I got on here, but there's this question, and even Dave has weighed in on it over the years, years of, you know, do you need to have been a very important star everywhere to be, you know, a serious hall of Famer, or could your, your domain or your reach be more regional or more confined to a territory or two? And, you know, I definitely am on the former side. I do think that if somebody is important, important enough in an important place, I think that that should be worthy. So, for example, I usually vote for Bob Armstrong for the same reason. And I know he's probably hurt for the same reason, which is that outside of that particular area, and also because a lot of what he did wasn't being heavily covered, say in wrestling magazines and stuff that, you know, sometimes he might be discounted. So I feel the same about Bill Dundee you're talking about.
At least from, you know, from his period, the mid-70s on, he would have to be second only to Jerry Lawler himself in terms of, you know, a star and a draw in that territory and, and without a question, the greatest rival of Jerry the King Lawler and sometimes tag team partner too. So, I mean, just, just on that alone and, and the way that he was able to remain over for so long to the point where he still continued, like Lawler, to be a fixture there even after the, the Jarrett promotion went under, and it was the various sort of like vestiges of Memphis, like MCW and ppw. And he kept being a part of that all even into the late 90s and beyond. So to me, I think his candidacy has great merit.
[01:08:34] Speaker C: Yeah, he and Lawler were having matches 10 years ago, right?
[01:08:38] Speaker F: 20. Yeah, right, exactly. I, when I did his obituary, I think it was, it was definitely somewhere in the 2010s they had their last match.
[01:08:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I wish you guys could have been around like I was. I was 14, I think, when Dundee and Barnes came over here. No, 12. I was 12 when Barnes and Dundee and I still remember their interviews on television. Barnes and Dundee would come on television. They had those Australian, Scottish, British, I don't know what they were, but they weren't Tennessee accents.
And that got them heat right there. The, you ain't from around here, heel, you know, and they would literally beat the heck out of each other doing interviews. I mean, they'd chop each other's chests and hit each other's arms and, and do all kinds of stuff. Like, you think you're tough, we're tough, you know, and they were tough and hitting each other and it got them over, man. And they were doing, they were doing what were high spots to us in the Tennessee territory that were things that hadn't been seen, you know, especially in 1975. And then of course, you know, Bill, I just was mentioning. Bill turned baby face by aligning himself with one of the all time greatest baby faces ever in the territory, Eddie Marlin, and stayed over as a baby face until 77 when he and Nahler had their feud and Dundee kind of turned heel there. But Steve, what are your thoughts about Dundee?
[01:10:10] Speaker E: You know, the guy, I guess he grew up in the circus, actually, as a younger person he did.
And then he evolved into this wrestling performer and, and as you guys have already kind of said, he's, he, he done it at all. He was a booker, he was a wrestler, he became a manager. I mean, he, he's involved in every aspect of the business. He'll baby face, you know, just in that area, in that pocket of the world. He was one of the most major important persons. So he definitely has to be in the conversation. I don't know, you know, I don't know if he's hall of Fame worthy, but he needs to be in the conversation.
[01:10:50] Speaker C: I said he worked to trapeze and I got corrected on that. And then I saw in the Observer, Dave said that too. And then finally I just went back to Dundee's biography. And I'm like, yes, I knew that he had done, you know, some trapeze stuff.
[01:11:06] Speaker D: So.
[01:11:06] Speaker F: Did he say in his biography that he did? He confirmed it, yes.
[01:11:10] Speaker D: Okay.
[01:11:11] Speaker F: Because one of the people who said he didn't was Jim Cornette. I remember, I heard when he did the Dundee.
[01:11:18] Speaker C: Yes. And I think I had just done my thing on Randy Hale show and I think he was talking about me.
[01:11:23] Speaker F: Well, I don't know. But he did say that, yes, he worked in the circus, but he seemed to think that he didn't do the trapeze. But if he's saying it in his own book, I think we have to go with that.
[01:11:32] Speaker C: Yeah, he did the high wire stuff and he worked with animals quite a bit. He did just about everything he could do in the circus.
What about you, Greg? What about Billy Superstar?
[01:11:43] Speaker D: I, I would say he's one of those borderline guys, but again, I, I don't want to disparage him by calling him borderline. I, you know, the hall of Very Good still means you're very good. And, and the problem is he split between.
He was a great booker. You know, we have to mention that he was the booker of what most of us think is the greatest period of Mid south wrestling. I'm not a Memphis expert, but. But I would say that he's probably the booker of two or three of the greatest eras of Memphis wrestling. I love the, you know, Buddy and Bill show. I think it's like the last great hurrah of Memphis booking and Memphis drawing in the Mid South Coliseum, you know, and I learned a lot from you guys and I learned a lot from Jim Cornette talking about him in terms of putting him in context of Tennessee wrestling history.
So, you know, where we talked about before Brian joined, I said that Bob Armstrong is on the Mount Rushmore in Alabama wrestling history and Georgia wrestling history.
So you can make an argument that Bill Dundee is on the Mount Rushmore of Tennessee wrestling history. You can make an argument. Now, the problem is Tennessee's so big and wide and it's got three or four different history eras of territory. So you might not.
[01:12:58] Speaker A: Right.
[01:13:01] Speaker C: You'd put him on the late modern and.
[01:13:03] Speaker D: Yeah, so, you know, there's, obviously there's a lot of guys. There's, there's, you know, Ron Garth, you know, Ron and Don Carson, and then there's, you know, George, you know, there's, there's, I mean, Sputnik, Monroe.
[01:13:15] Speaker C: Well, three of those spots have got to be the Welches. I mean, if you.
[01:13:19] Speaker B: Right.
[01:13:19] Speaker D: So it's hard to find four guys for Tennessee when you're talking about such a big geographical area that it had three or four different territories. But my point is he was a fantastic worker. He was a legendary booker. Again, you know, we talked about longevity, how if a wrestler needs 10 years, if a tag team needs, you know, I think still needs more than two or three years. What about a booker? Does one great period of booking count? Again, are we talking about him as a wrestler, not a booker?
I just don't know as a wrestler. Cornette almost had me convinced. Like, don't judge him for 1987 because they send him to central states. And don't judge him because he doesn't have a great WWF or WCW run.
Understand that they're using him as a manager and a booking mind and to get other people over.
So I understand it's a, there's a total package thing with him, but it, the way that we vote, it doesn't count. So it's, you know, I just don't know if he has enough in any one category.
And yet I have to admit that he's the booker of the greatest period of the greatest wrestling territory in my mind in history. So, you know, hats off to him and, and, and a lovely fellow apparently. You know, we'll take his son out of the equation a little bit in the news this week. But the people in the business that learn from him, I think you have to. You know, you talk about like Ernie, as Ernie Ladd says, the learning tree. You talk about football coaches and their trees of who they influence.
Bill Dundee and who he influenced is second to none. You know, Jim Cornette, obviously you have to give him credit for the Rock and Roll Express, the Midnight Express, maybe even a little bit for the Fantastics, you know, that baby Face era of pretty boys. And he was one of them. I didn't realize that until I was listening to Jim Cornette talk about Teeny and you know, Jerry, like the girls like him, you need to make this little guy a baby face. And, and so I missed, you know, you. And the other thing is, all we saw of him as a wrestler is he's in his 40s, right?
By the time he's a big star in Memphis, he's in his 40s.
So, you know, he doesn't look like the same cute little guy in the jumpsuit. He looks like a 40 year old in the jumpsuit trying to imitate Elvis. But think about that same guy in 1970, you know, whatever, four or five, six. He's a hot act and we miss that. So, you know, if you vote for him, I'm not going to say no.
You know, we could have a conversation about guys that die and how it helped them the year after versus guys who have been dead for a decade and need us to boost them. But yeah, a great, great conversation about a great, great wrestler and booker.
[01:16:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, you know, I think the timeliness of his passing will have an effect on it because he's been on people's minds and there's been, there will be so many. I don't have my piece done yet about him. I'm just now finishing my Jerry Oates piece. But I think there'll be so many things like that put out with so much information about him. It will remind people how much depth he had in his career beyond, you know, I mean, just being a main event wrestler in Tennessee would probably get him in, but he had so much more. Definitely part of the Jerry Jarrett tree. As you mentioned, how insignificant it is to be part of learning trees. Okay, let's go to a non wrestler and Brian's here now. So he obviously wrote a whole book on the subject of this next guy, Gino Marella.
So what do you, what do you think, Brian, about gorilla? Oh, yeah, Possibly getting in this year.
[01:16:58] Speaker F: I remember that guy.
Well, I want to comment because we did this show last year and obviously my big guy was gorilla. It's still gorilla.
[01:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:17:08] Speaker F: And you know, I don't think we had a chance to talk about this because it was after the fact. But when the ballots came out last year, there was a very interesting dichotomy that happened. So I don't know if you saw this, but we know gorilla didn't make it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if he did. He was. Because Dave breaks down the vote getters. Right. According to category of voter among active professionals in the business, not just wrestlers, but people who actively work within the wrestling business itself, he was the number one vote getter. Number one among retired professionals from the industry. He was something like number three or four.
So he was really, really big among the people who are in there. You know what hurt him were people like us.
I hate to say I, I didn't, you know, I was really disappointed in that because the, among the, the writers or journalists category and the historians category, he did very poorly, you know, maybe like around 20th or something like that. And you know, that is, that's what the part that needs to change in order to get him in because the people in the industry, they Already know, you know, they already understand the importance, it would seem by the voting. And so, you know, he's in that non participant or non, non wrestler category, which I think is the right thing to do. Like we said, you don't, you definitely don't want to put them in both because then he'll split the vote and he'll never get in.
[01:18:41] Speaker C: Well, we mentioned, we mentioned earlier, that's a very crowded field.
[01:18:44] Speaker F: Yes, that too, that too. And there's always such a bottleneck in there, especially the historical category. I always vote for the maximum in that category because there just never seems to be a shortage of people that I feel very strongly should go in. But I think it's right to put him in the non wrestler category because I think for most people voting that would be the one they're more familiar with. But not just that. I do think that, that I, I think that he deserves that he would. Let me put it this way, I, I definitely agree that he deserves to go in more for his outside the ring importance than for his inside. And that's not to say he wasn't important in the ring. I think he was a major, I mean, I don't think it's a fact that he was a major star.
He was one of the top drawing heels of the mid to late 60s.
And you know, but, but it's the fact that he was for 25 or more years an essential outside the ring component of what became the biggest company in the history of pro wrestling. And even, even in its regional incarnation was one of the biggest and most successful companies there was. So, you know, from being a producer, even though they didn't call it that back then, of being sort of like an executive producer of television, of, of being an agent, he was kind of like the king of the agents. You know, people forget that he was also an agent.
He wasn't just doing guerrilla position, he was agenting matches, he was booking finishes, doing all that stuff. The closest thing that Vince Senior even had to a booker. You know, from what we understand, the booking system in the Worldwide Wrestling Federation was much more loose than in other places. It seems like it was mainly just Vince Senior for the most part.
And he would have input from people.
You know, he would have Bruno having heavy input on his programs and, and Guerrilla helping out with a lot of the rest. But as we know too, from watching all those territories, I mean, Steve, you know this, I know we grew up in that area. It's not, it's not a knock on that territory, but there was Definitely less moving parts than a lot of other territories. Like there was less constant storyline changes and things like what you would see in Memphis or Georgia or Florida.
So I don't think the booking was as labor intensive, let's say. So, like, if you kind of knew what your top program was going to be at the Garden for the next few months, you were good. You can, then you could kind of fill out the rest. But, you know, his booking, his, his guerrilla stuff, and then of course, his work as a commentator, which thankfully has been reappraised I think in recent years, he was, he was, I think, far less appreciated by some people at that time compared to now. Although I think what, what we see is he was extremely popular, I find, with just your. The typical fans of the wwf, you know, who weren't on message boards or who weren't reading newsletters, you know, they adored the man. And, and there's many people who consider him to be their personal choice for the best commentator in wrestling history, which I don't even know if I would say that myself. I know that's blasphemous, but for many people he's the choice. So I think there's so many reasons why he needs to go in for non wrestler. I mean, it should have happened last year. I hope it happens this year and
[01:22:17] Speaker C: I hope we don't prevent it.
[01:22:19] Speaker F: Why would we prevent it? How would that happen?
[01:22:21] Speaker C: Well, you just said, you know, the people that kept him out.
I hope we don't. We're not the reason.
[01:22:28] Speaker F: Well, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.
[01:22:30] Speaker C: Steve, what are your thoughts about Monsoon?
[01:22:33] Speaker E: Hey, when I was listening to Brian talk, there I was, I was thinking in my mind, gorilla Monsoon's candidacy, to me reminds me of Joe Torrey for the hall of Fame in the sense that, in the sense of Joe Torre was an MVP as a player, he was considered a superior player of his era.
Monsoon's feud against Bruno was the premier event of Bruno's historic first run. I mean, Bruno faced the greatest heels in wrestling in the 1960s. Freddie Blassie, Gene Kiniski, Kowalski, I mean, you can name them all. But the most important feud, the one that got Bruno over and got Monsoon over was the Monsoon feud. That was the most epic feud in his. Brian so wonderfully said in the book. I mean, they brought it back, I think in 67 for one more big run. Yeah, and, and then, and then his, all the work he did that Brian just talked about, he was the agent, he was the guy behind the scenes. He was running the TVs up until the time that Patterson came in in the national expansion area era. And then he becomes kind of the, you know, the elder statesman commentator, the, the, the face of the promotion. The guy who announced all the WrestleManias, the first nine WrestleManias or eight and a half Wrestlemanias. He's there and you know, to me he's one of those guys that, you know, I'm sure if you'd asked Dave Meltzer, Dave Meltzer might say he should have been that initial class of 96. I would think he would say that.
[01:24:09] Speaker C: All right, well, let's go to another person in the non wrestler category. Greg has been a very vocal advocate for, for the last couple of years for Morris Siegel, who he and his brother Julius basically invented pro wrestling in the city of Houston.
It became a regular weekly attraction because of the Spiegel brothers in 1925. Greg, tell us why Morris Siegel should be in the hall of Fame, as obvious as it may be.
Please give us.
[01:24:39] Speaker D: Well, first of all, I'll just say to me, the mic drop on Gorilla is the gorilla position. I mean how, how do you top that as a wrestling.
[01:24:47] Speaker C: Exactly.
[01:24:49] Speaker D: But also I will say this, I was skeptical last year not, not of him deserving to be in, but as a one year candidate, the effect that Brian's work would have just over a short period of time. And, and I actually, I wasn't discouraged by the result, Brian. I thought it was actually a very, very good first year effort on your part for a candidate that had previously been dropped from the ballot and sort of forgotten. So I think he's well positioned to get in and I think it'll happen. I think he deserves it. I agree with Steve. He deserved it as a wrestler. But again, he's the voice of a generation of that, of that territory and one of the most influential people behind the scenes. And oh, by the way, owned a piece of Puerto Rico as a just a random thing, 7%.
[01:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:25:36] Speaker D: What a great, what a great read. That book was obviously one of, you know, what was that the observer book of the year last year? Yeah, throw that out there. Deservingly so. And just a great piece of history and probably does resurrect Gorilla's legacy in a lot of spots. And you know, I will, I'll leave off the historian stuff and, and just go to Morris Siegel. But I definitely think Gorilla is getting in this year.
[01:26:03] Speaker C: So.
[01:26:03] Speaker D: And well deserved. But as for Morris Siegel, as Tony said, you know, not just the history of Houston wrestling, the history of Texas wrestling. And you know, when I talk About Texas, I talk about it differently than Tony because Tony's a west Texas guy. I talk about the Texas loop, which is essentially north, south, east Texas, or the double triangle or the diamond.
You know, from Dallas at the top to Corpus Christi in the bottom, Houston and San Antonio in the middle as the corners.
That was established in 1929, 1930, when Houston, San Antonio and Corpus Christi become weekly cities.
And by the mid-30s, the Texas wrestling Agency is booking, you know, what is essentially a 600 mile loop from Wichita Falls to Corpus Christi. And. And the only reason they, they don't add like El Paso and, you know, the west Texas towns is because they're so far away from Corpus and Houston and San Antonio that you could make Dallas a territory with them, but you really couldn't do both.
So the Seagulls invent what we think of as Texas wrestling. And Julius moves on to Louisiana and dies young.
Morris is essentially the promoter of Houston wrestling in the Texas wrestling loop from the 1930s till he dies in 1966. And with Doc Sarpolos and other people, his brother in law, Frank Burke, and his brother in law, Norman Clark, they invent the concept of what we know as Texas wrestling. Tony and I love best about wrestling and, you know, I mean, Tony's a Tennessee, Kentucky guy, so obviously he loves the Welches. But as he and Briscoe and Bradshaw have been doing this series on Texas wrestling, you can't talk about it without talking about Morrison, Doc and Frank and what they created from the Texas style, from the brass knuckles and no holds barred and lights out and, you know, the blading and I mean, just everything, you know, quintessential wrestling comes from this group of, you know, essentially mostly men, but. Shout out to Dorothy, Living Good, the longtime San Antonio promoter, not on the ballot, but probably should be, you know, a special exemption into the hall of Fame. But, you know, we'll start working on educating people on her, you know, over the next couple of years. But, you know, mostly a group of men who established what we now think of as the Texas style of wrestling. And everybody from, you know, the modern era of guys, the cowboy wrestlers, you know, the bare knuckled brawlers, all of that comes from, you know, this Texas style. And, you know, Morris Siegel, as you can imagine, had to fight many wars to keep what was his. He won until he's on his deathbed. He won pretty much all the times, even the time that he lost in San Antonio.
He outdrew the opposition. It's just that it was more expensive to run the city auditorium than it was to run your own building with your own concessions.
He is, you know, again, somebody that should have been put in on the first ballot. Houston wrestling. Everything that we know and love about Houston wrestling that we attribute to Paul Bosh's Houston wrestling came from his mentor, Morris Siegel, including how to be a good civic minded business leader in a major metropolitan city.
You know, they put on a symphony slash wrestling show, I believe it was 1944 that drew like $12 million in war bond sales. You know, they were an essential part of Houston culture. Friday Nights at the Coliseum was the title of a book in the 1970s by Jeff Winningham. Now the title of one of my blog posts every week on Fridays.
You know, a weekly town that was also one of the biggest cities in America. And, you know, now it's like fourth or fifth, depending on the year and the decade. But it was, you know, top 10, cusp of top 10 when Morris Siegel was establishing it as a wrestling city. Think about this.
Most of the bigger cities, monthly cities, couple of them were not, you know, you can talk about like L. A or something like that, but you talk about New York. I mean, New York had a million different shows. And that's, you know, we talked about this panel. The greatest wrestling Cities in the 20th century in North America.
Cities like Mexico City and New York and la, where you could have three or four shows on the same night in the same market, maybe a different class.
But Houston was a weekly wrestling town from essentially 1929 until 1982. The TV show, the TV announcer, the TV channel at the end that we all knew it for. All of that was established by Morris Siegel, moving from the city auditorium to the Sam Houston Coliseum. That was done during the Morris Siegel era. They had to learn on the fly in the 1960s, which was a cool period for wrestling after the hot TV boom. How to go from a 4,000 seat arena weekly to a 10,000 seat arena weekly. And they did it. They made it work to the point where we mostly remember Houston wrestling for the Sam Houston Coliseum rather than the city Auditorium.
[01:31:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think Morris's biggest problem is Paul Bosch, to be honest with you.
[01:31:35] Speaker D: I mean, well, we've discussed this group of people, you know, you and I, Tony, you know, Doc Morris, Ed McLemore in Dallas, and then Dorothy Living Good and her husband Frank Brown in San Antonio, all eclipsed by their proteges.
We know the Funks, we know Fritz Von Erich, we know Joe Blanchard, who parenthetically wasn't a success as a Promoter. Even though he had a great wrestling promotion that had wild action, he lost, you know, the wrestling war to the world class and loses his promotion.
[01:32:09] Speaker C: Yeah, that's Paul Bosch.
[01:32:10] Speaker D: Yes. He's a promoter for 20 years, and we love his product, but it all came from his mentor. And so we need to go back and look at that era of guys and Dorothy living good and. And figure out a way to get those people in.
[01:32:25] Speaker C: Well, Joe Blanchard was a much better performer and a bigger star than he ever was as a promoter. Fritz Von Erich was a much bigger international star than any of his sons. But that's just the way the biases work. And the video era. Go ahead, Brian.
[01:32:43] Speaker F: Well, Paul, I was just gonna say part of the bias, there's always recency bias. But when you're talking about this far back, there's also. You can't leave out the idea of living memory. Right. I mean, Paul Bosch is in living memory as the guy who ran Houston. And it's not to say that Siegel isn't per se, but you would have to be to have a significant memory of those days. At this point, what we have to
[01:33:10] Speaker C: be, you know, you'd have to be George's age.
[01:33:12] Speaker F: George.
[01:33:13] Speaker C: I mean, George Shire. George.
[01:33:15] Speaker F: No.
[01:33:15] Speaker D: But yes, yes, you're right.
[01:33:17] Speaker C: He just turned 75.
And he. He would be a person that I would know that ever went to events in Texas during that era.
[01:33:27] Speaker D: The other thing is, and Brian hit on it. Paul Bosh is the face and the voice of Morris Siegel's Houston Wrestling.
[01:33:35] Speaker F: That's true.
[01:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:33:36] Speaker D: So even if you knew Morris Siegel's Houston Wrestling from growing up in the 1960s, you knew it by the voice of the announcer who was Paul Bosh, who takes over the promotion.
[01:33:47] Speaker C: The other thing I hit on in the History of Texas Wrestling episode we just ran is that by the mid-1960s, we're entering a transition in the wrestling business where the businessmen who were the promoters are dying off and are leaving.
Mushnick and McMahon are the pretty much only ones who survive who weren't wrestlers who maintained promotions in the 80s and.
Well, in the 80s. And Crockett.
[01:34:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:34:14] Speaker C: Jim Crockett Jr. Yeah.
[01:34:16] Speaker F: When you. When we saw those letters in the Pfeffer archive, you could see how they were buzzing about exactly that. When you get up to those later years, you get people like Mushnik and Pfeffer and Willie Gills and Berg and. And. And I. And I think Johnny Doyle is in there, and they're all Eddie Quinn and they're writing letters to each other. It's just like, could you believe this? I mean, this is embarrassing. We've got wrestlers running the territories now. There is a lot of.
[01:34:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, well, they're almost all like that.
You know, Eddie Graham was a performer, you know, and they're all starting to take over the businesses in these. And you can point to that as a reason why they didn't win any of the war that was coming up, because they weren't really businessmen. They were wrestlers who grew up knowing wrestling.
They didn't really know business.
And so you have a pretty savvy, pretty savvy business dynasty in the McMahon family that, that only businessmen ran that, with the exception of the guy we talked about a few minutes ago with Gorilla, who was a partner, but he really functioned as a businessman and he
[01:35:30] Speaker F: was, he was kind of the first like that. I mean, you had, you know, because when he got cut in, even Arnold Scholin wasn't really a player. He didn't have a piece at that time.
[01:35:38] Speaker B: It.
[01:35:40] Speaker F: And Tootsman, who. Well, Tootsman had been a wrestler and you had Vince McMahon, you know, senior, but that was, things were changing.
[01:35:47] Speaker D: Yeah, Steve Doc was a wrestler, obviously, and Frank Brown in San Antonio was a wrestler.
[01:35:52] Speaker B: Bob Guide.
[01:35:53] Speaker C: So was Roy Welch. Yeah, yeah, but, but Bob Geigel is one of the people I'm talking about because he took over for Gus Karras, who was a businessman.
[01:36:04] Speaker D: So that's the era. That's what I'm saying is it's a little earlier than we would think of, of these old school guys getting angry about school, young, you know, headlining guys, because it starts in the 40s, 50s, and then by the 60s, people are like, you know, and then by the 80s, you're like, why did that guy own the territory? And you have to explain, well, 30 years ago, when he was good looking and young, he was the biggest star in the territory.
[01:36:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:36:29] Speaker F: There was a letter that I found that was from Gills and Berg to Pfeffer and Gillsenberg. Obviously he worked up in New York, New Jersey, but he lived in Florida.
So he lived in Florida with his family. And he wrote about how he was trying to insinuate himself into the Florida promotion while he was down there and work with at that time, Cowboy Luttrell, who already had Eddie Graham as his, you know, lieutenant right now. Cowboy Luttrell also had been a wrestler. He was kind of an early example of that. And Gills and Berg is not impressed. He's talking about how, you know, kind of the way they, the way they run it, how, how Just rough and ready they are. It's not like the businessman he's used to being around. He complains about Luttrell going around with a gun in the locker room and, and Eddie Graham roughing up people that don't comply and all that was ever.
[01:37:24] Speaker C: That was every territory in the South. I mean.
[01:37:26] Speaker F: Right, right. They were not used to that.
[01:37:28] Speaker C: No. If they would have come to Tennessee and it. Seen the Welches, I mean, good God. Or if they would have gone to Georgia and seen McIntyre. I mean, it was just, it was that way, you know, it was rough and ready, man. Yeah, I.
What's that?
[01:37:45] Speaker D: The Willie Gills and Berg file of the Jack Pfeffer collection is one of the greatest files wrestling historians will ever read.
[01:37:51] Speaker F: It's incredible. It's incredible. It's overwhelming.
[01:37:54] Speaker C: I would probably be.
I would probably commit some kind of sin or crime or something if I, I didn't mention James Melby since I won the award that's named after him. But he's in the non wrestler category also.
And so is one more person. Oh, Ted Turner, which I advocated with slightly last year. But I just think Ted Turner is such a significant player going all the way back to 1972 when he convinced Buddy Fuller and Ray Gunkel to move their show over to his station.
[01:38:33] Speaker D: I thought he was getting in and then there was a last minute fail where the late votes came in and he didn't get in. So I would think he's getting in this year.
[01:38:41] Speaker C: Steve, is there anybody we have not mentioned that you are interested in?
I'll mention two more and then I'll ask you that question. But Cowboy Bob Ellis is another person who I think was a tremendous main event performer who drew an amazing amount of money.
But I think again, we're talking about somebody that wasn't around later on. There's not a lot of video on him. You'd have to be an older, older person to remember him, unless you're a magazine collector or somebody in a group like ours.
And also the Texas Tornado, June Byers, who I think is so deserving to get in. But again, her career was over by the mid-60s. She was the perennial women's heavyweight champion for a decade and married to Sam Minaker and was so involved in El Paso and so many different things. I definitely think just to all the voters out there, if you're watching or listening to our show, do some research on some of these people, especially the ones that you're not familiar with with, and, and find out some of the great history behind some of these folks, Steve, is there anybody else you want to talk about?
[01:39:55] Speaker A: No.
[01:39:56] Speaker E: One thing that I'm interested in hearing about, and I'll just spit it out here, I. I would like to see more names just get on the ballot to be in the conversation. I don't really have someone that I'm really going to be a hard advocate for, but I'll just. I'll just throw some names to you and just, Just. These are people that I would like to see in the conversation. I would like to see, have a chance to be at least considered. People like Rick Martel, Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, Don Morocco, Chavo Guerrero. These are guys that have all had, you know, really strong careers.
Maybe they're not hall of Fame worthy, but I think they need to be in the conversation at least, and to see what, you know, if there's enough support, let them get in the hall of Fame.
[01:40:44] Speaker C: That's a good. That's a good subject, you guys.
Brian, is there any omissions that we should mention?
[01:40:51] Speaker F: Well, I mean, I always, like I said before, I always get so caught up in how many people that are already there that I just think it's grossly overdue that they finally go in that. You know, I haven't even given that a lot of thought, honestly, as the people. I haven't even gotten that far in my mind. Yeah, it's almost like I'm not a little bit the opposite, Steve. I keep thinking, like, let's, let's clear some of this off first before we put all these other guys.
[01:41:18] Speaker C: But you're. You're right.
[01:41:19] Speaker F: I mean, some of those people you mentioned, I can actually. All those people you mentioned, I could see a case for putting them on here. So, I mean, for sure.
I'm trying to think. I mean, you know, it's funny they always say how Meltzer always talks about the Dick Murdoch. What is it? It's the Dick Murdoch test, right?
Because Murdoch was never on and he should. Should be, and now he is. But Dave would always say, like, are you. Are you more or less worthy than Dick Murdoch? He's the. He's kind of like the over under. And I don't know if that's fair, but it's nice to see him on there. And like, he was an example of somebody that I thought should be on there that wasn't.
[01:41:54] Speaker C: All right, let's run through the historical candidates real quick. Oli Anderson, Offa and Sika, Bob Armstrong, Tilly and Arnold, British Bulldogs. June Byers, Wild Bull Curry, Junkyard Dog. Bill Dundee, Cowboy Bob Ellis, Pampero Furpo Gordman and Goliath. The Mongolian Stomper, the Hart Foundation Sputnik Monroe, Dick Murdoch, Iron Chic, Sweet Daddy Siki, Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood, Mad Dog and Butcher, Vashon and Kerry and David and Kevin Von Erich as a six man team.
That's the historical category.
Now there are some.
What's that?
Bull Curry. I would say Bull Curry is there. Did I mention him?
He was right.
[01:42:42] Speaker D: You did, you did. I just wanted to throw his name out there. Oh yeah, nobody had mentioned him.
You know, the first brass knuckles champion. They had to create a title for him kind of guy, one of the old school Texas guys. But longevity wise you know, certainly applies and unique main eventer to the point where they could bring him back. I'm looking at, you know, 1970 Houston right now. He's the special referee for the big match between Dory Funk Jr. And Wahoo McDaniel. You know, so he was still that kind of draw where you could bring him back as a special attraction even in the 1970s. And you mentioned Cowboy Bob Ellis.
You can see a little of him in like late era Tri state, for instance, 1980s central states. And he's again, he's a 50 year old man, right? He's bald, he's got the dad bod. He's still incredible in the ring, you know, even in a dying Tri State territory, he's like the best thing there. And he's got that killer Carl Cox effect in the 1980s where if you watch with 1980s eyes as a teenager, you can't figure out what's going on. But then you hear about what a big star he was in the 1970s or 1960s and you realize that the fans in the audience are still reacting to that.
That's, that's Cowboy Bob Ellis. I mean, big star in Chicago, big star in Indiana, big star in Texas, big star in California.
Quintessential cowboy, you know, one of the prototypes. I mean, I know, you know, dates back to the Pfeffer days, but one of the guys that was the best at it before the era of guys that we know. So those are two guys that I, I just, I think are spectacular. And then as you guys know, Dorothy, Living Good needs to be on a ballot someday. Doc Sarpolis needs to be back on a ballot or on a ballot someday.
Ed McLemore, you know, from Dallas needs to be on a ballot someday.
[01:44:42] Speaker C: Maybe we should invent the modern wrestler test. And then Wild Bull Curry should be the person they have to measure up as far as looking like a wrestler.
How about that?
Talk about the Dick Murdoch test.
[01:44:54] Speaker D: But yeah, if you put the guy in the ring today, could you still have a main event with him? I know he's passed away, but you know, the Abdul the Butcher types, there's something to be said for that that can still go in and draw your eye and keep your attention. And what is this guy going to do? He's crazy.
[01:45:12] Speaker C: Let's there's a couple of guys who are in the Europe category and Alan Blackstock has been very nice to come on this show in a different segment and talk about the European section because he recognizes that I'm woefully inept in this area.
But Dominic Denucci, George Gordienko, who I think is an interesting candidate is in the. I just like George Gordyenko overall is in there. Billy Joyce is in there who trained so many of the Wigan guys. Killer Carl Cox is in the Europe category.
Adrian street is in the in the Europe category along with several other wrestlers that I just don't know a lot about. That's why Allen is coming on the show.
In the non wrestler category, we have a crowded field. Dave Brown from Memphis Wrestling, Zane Bresloff who was, was the longtime event guy for WWE and then didn't he go over to WCW too?
I thought he did.
[01:46:12] Speaker F: Yes, he did.
[01:46:13] Speaker C: Bob Cottle, who we lost not long ago, the longtime Mid Atlantic Wrestling. I saw a.
I think it was a Houston wrestling clip of Bob Cottle. They were signing Andre the Giant for a wrestling match in Houston and I saw Bob Cottle on there and it must have been late 70s, but man, does Bob look young in that video clip.
Joe Higuchi, who was the referee in Japan and he was also a longtime liaison for a lot of the eastern part of the country for Baba Jim Johnston, who wrote a lot of the music for the wwf. Salvador Luderoth iii. I will have to talk to Roy Lucher about that. I don't know the third. Larry Matazek, who was a longtime commentator for Wrestling at the Chase.
Well, I say long time commentary here from 72 I think is when he took over the show.
So there was. I can't remember the guy's name who did the show from 59 to 72, but Matazek did it from 72 on James Melby, I mentioned the gorilla Monsoon. We mentioned Rossi Ogawa from big guy in Japan. Reggie Parks who was a wrestler in the United States but also a famous belt maker.
Morris Siegel, we talked about. Tony Schiavone is On the ballot, longtime Crockett on TBS and then later WCW and now AEW guy George Scott. We mentioned at the top of the segment the booker for North Carolina. And of course it was also in the great tag team with his brother Sandy and was an individual performer booker of the WWF in 85 and 86, Kevin Sullivan, who I just can't believe is gone is on the on the ballot, Mike Tanay, longtime commentator that a lot of people have a lot of respect for. Ted Turner, Jesse Ventura, we mentioned Roy Welch, of course, you know, I'm an advocate for him. I did 11 part series on him just for this purpose. Just so voters could get educated on who the Welch family was. And so that's out there that I will talk more about on this show. Stanley Weston, who was the publisher of all those great magazines is in this grand wizard we mentioned and Kochi Yaso Zawa who was a journalist in Japan. Is that right? Brian?
[01:48:38] Speaker F: Photographer. Yeah. I think he's probably most known for the photography but yeah, but I mean
[01:48:42] Speaker C: what a crowded field that is. I mean yes, and I want to talk to Dave about that. I wish he would just do a couple of honorary inductions and narrow that down. But be that as it may, any final thoughts on it or anybody? We should have talked about that. We did not going to go through the modern performers. I don't vote in that category.
Japan is there. I have limited knowledge there. In Mexico I have limited knowledge. That's why I have experts come on this show for that stuff. And Europe, which Alan is going to come on and do. But Brian, any closing thoughts about the hall of Fame this year?
[01:49:24] Speaker F: Well, I think one of the best things that that he did that has been done is allowing more choices because there's, it's, I guess it's partly an acknowledgment of the bottleneck that was occurring where for the past couple of years now you can choose more names potentially from each category individually as you want. And I think that's helped a lot. There have been some like I think Sergeant Slaughter was a great example because he was somebody that was hanging around on there forever. He was my number one cause before Gorilla Monsoon and But I think it's the voting process overall is better now. I think like you said, the, the modern category is tough because I always have my little problem with voting for people who are still active. That's my thing. It's like I to me, I. I can automatically kind of rule them out. I, I because because there's so many people that that or that aren't active anymore. That. And still need to go in. But I have to say, and I know we weren't gonna, you know, we're not. I'm not trying to steer this into talking about the modern performers, but the most, I think, deserving name on there right now, and they do go way back, you know, to the. To the 80s, is the Steiner Brothers. I think, you know, I. I really feel like even if you were just going to pick one choice from the modern performers category, it. It should be the Steiner Brothers. I mean, I think that they have, you know, in terms of their importance and their influence and their.
[01:50:57] Speaker C: I, I agree with that. I think also very close to that same reasoning is Jeff Jarrett.
[01:51:03] Speaker F: Yes, but. But see, Jeff Jarrett still is somewhat active, so otherwise, yes, in a heartbeat I would vote for him. But he still gets in the ring and he does stuff, you know, with aew. I can't quite. Can't quite vote for him yet, but I will.
[01:51:17] Speaker C: I agree with you, and I am partially biased. And the reason I'm biased is because he was so great at the Trago Estez hall of Fame this last summer. He. He participated in the softball game. It was very funny. He couldn't run. He had Karen run for him. He. He'd hit the ball and Karen would run for him. But Jeff was in it wholeheartedly. He was.
His hall of Fame speech at Waterloo, he. He was very emotional. He shed tears and all. And I just. I. First time I'd ever met the guy, I never met him before, but he really got close to my heart by the things that he did in Waterloo and the way he was humbled and honored at that thing. And I agree. I think he still has some matches from time to time. And I also agree that I would pick the Stein winners out of that category as well. Steve, you have any closing thoughts?
[01:52:09] Speaker E: If any of my favorites, the Monsoon, Grand Wizard Ventura, if any of them make the hall of Fame, they'll make me very, very happy. That's all I can say.
[01:52:19] Speaker C: Okay, Greg.
[01:52:22] Speaker D: Well, you know, I would just like to ask Dave to consider some sort of veterans committee.
Obviously, I live just outside of Cooperstown. I deal with the Baseball hall of Fame quite a bit. Going to be there this week, doing some stuff.
What they do is they take eras that are harder for people to vote on, and they have a panel of like 12 or 16 people. I think it's 16.
So you literally need to get 12 votes out of 16. But I don't think it would be that Hard to commission a panel of expert historians from, say, the 1920s to the 1960s era, because I think a lot of our favorites in this group are getting hurt from the fact that they're just not modern eyes that can be evaluated with modern eyes. So I would like to advocate for that more than anything else.
[01:53:12] Speaker C: I think that's a great idea. As a matter of fact, I thought it was such a great idea, I brought it up on the Wrestling Classics Board and about got run out of town, didn't I, Steve? I mean, there was just a very hard. No, you know, that most of the people in the Wrestling Classic Board did not want to do it, and they were very adamant about that. Dave wouldn't do it. Now, I haven't talked to Dave about it, but I did bring it up as an idea, and there was not much positive support.
[01:53:40] Speaker D: Which is better?
Or having a veterans committee.
[01:53:44] Speaker C: No, no, it's not about the idea. It's about the acceptance of the idea, Steve.
[01:53:49] Speaker E: Well, somebody like. Somebody like a red bastine, to me, that's somebody who's fallen through the cracks. The Veteran committee would fix that.
[01:53:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, again, I thought it was a great idea. I think the idea itself is great. But then you also have to get your ideas accepted. And the temperature and weather of that was stormy. That's all I'm saying.
[01:54:11] Speaker D: Dave said that he modeled his hall of Fame after the Baseball hall of Fame and the Baseball Writers association of America's voting system. Well, it just needs to be pointed out that the museum, the National Baseball hall of Fame and Museum, has like, four different veterans committees, and they rotate them. There's one for this year. It's going to be just managers and umpires and officials.
So Dusty Baker is expected to be inducted next year through the veterans committee.
Next year will be the Does Pete Rose get consideration or doesn't Pete Rose get consideration Year.
You know, it's a. There is a precedent for it, and it's exactly the precedent that Dave says is the model that he patterned his hall of Fame after.
[01:54:53] Speaker C: Hey, man, you don't have to convince me. I'm not the one making the decision. But I, you know, I don't disagree. Go ahead.
[01:54:59] Speaker F: The issue you talk about, you know, Tony, about that there's a similar. There had been a similar problem with the Boxing hall of Fame, even in Conestoga, because I know, you know, there was. My grandfather's cousin was the bantamweight champion of the world, and he was. Oh, gosh. He was a major star in boxing in the 30s and early 40s.
And every fight fan would have known his name back then. And he, he was a bronze medalist in the Olympics before that. And the guy he beat for the title is in the hall of Fame. The guy he lost the title to is in the hall of Fame. And they all had these great match, these great fights. And you know, he was very well known, he lived out in Hollywood. He used to date all the Hollywood stars. He'd fight at the Olympic auditorium. You know, people knew him, but there was this, this kind of the feeling and this is, happens not just him. In a lot of cases there reached a point. I remember, I think it was back in the 80s or so because my grandfather would, would follow it because it was his cousin where everybody was saying the window is closing now because the people who remember him as a fighter are dying. And especially there isn't really a lot of footage. It's pre television, the same thing we face. Yeah, you know, the people are gone. And so there's got to be a provision put in there for that. The historian.
[01:56:19] Speaker C: Have you ever talked about that before? I mean, I know you've talked about your grandfather being in boxing, but have you ever talked about your other relative being the champion?
[01:56:27] Speaker F: Not too much. Lou Salika. He was a three time bantamweight champion of the world and Olympic bronze medalist as a flyweight. And yeah, he's kind of a forgotten name today.
He's got, his family runs an Instagram account, which is really interesting. But at the time and for the sports writers that lingered on into the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, he was very well remembered. But not anymore.
[01:56:53] Speaker C: Yeah, well, hey guys, thanks a lot for coming on today. I really appreciate all the, I mean we had a lot of great discussion and a lot of great insight into a lot of these people who we all think should be inducted into the Wrestling observer hall of Fame. And I appreciate you taking the time out to do this. And I know if they, some of them are still here today, but a lot of them are not. And if they were, they would thank you and appreciate you for honoring them by remembering them and thinking they were worthy of any hall of Fame honor. So Steve, thank you.
Brian, thank you.
And thank you, Greg. I appreciate all of you for coming by today.
[01:57:35] Speaker D: Thank you.
Thank you, Brian, for the upstate New York reference.
[01:57:41] Speaker C: Well, I'm excited about this particular segment of the show because I'm getting a conversation with a friend who's been a friend of mine for a couple of years now and I have tried to get him on the show before and he's been positively reluctant to do that. But we do have him on today because I got him in a passion spot which is the Wrestling observer hall of Fame and he is here to help me navigate the rest of the world category.
Alan Cheapshot online and Alan Blackstock in everyday life. Welcome to the show, man.
[01:58:19] Speaker B: Thanks Tony. Absolute pleasure to be invited on. I know you've done some, some great work over the last few years with through the show talking hall of Fame, raising the profile your Roy Welch kind of post you're doing this year to really draw up support 50 reasons why you should vote for Roy. I fully and wholeheartedly support that. Like you said on one of your shows earlier or last month now it was, it's a travesty wasn't it in 96 and there's a few other candidates like that. We're going to touch on some on the rest of the world category as well. I think were slight emissions and in a perfect world Dave would have a committee or Dave would just let people in because it's harder and harder for these people that are out called legacy candidates to get enough traction, enough people who would understand the case enough and willing to do the research to vote for them. So you, your work around Roy. I think I'm gonna be quietly confident and I've said this to you offline as well over the last few weeks, Tony. I think this is Roy's year.
[01:59:15] Speaker C: So I hope so. You know, and, and two, I think people do not take into consideration what the world was like in 1996 where the Internet was very new and you know, for Dave to sit down and make out a list. And I'm not trying to be apologetic for Dave. I'm just saying that in that world it would have been easy to overlook some people because there wasn't that much history stuff out there in 1996.
And so I can't deal in the world of the should have been. I'm only going to deal in the world of the reality and the reality is he's not in and I think he should be in. And you know my work online speaks for itself as far as the reasons why. And so I hope you're right. I hope this is a good year for Roy at least raising his profile up in the voting somewhat. But that's a crowded category for sure. I mean there's a lot of people in there and I'm thankful that Dave allows us to have seven votes in that particular category.
[02:00:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's definitely my, my two Favorite categories are the Rest of the World category, hence why I'm on today. And also that historical performers era as he calls it category.
I'll, I'll touch on that before we leave the show on who, who I who had voted for last year. As we said before we recorded a bit of a preamble. I'm still forming my opinions. I've still got to do some research on some of the candidates. So whilst we talk about the rest of the world candidates I am not going to sit here and say I know every candidates pluses and minuses inside out.
I'm still on that journey. The Rest of the World category is a challenge in itself as you know Tony, because it's so spread out. You have Britain, Europe, Africa and then mainly you've got Ted Boy Marino is in Brazil and then you've got some Australasian New Zealand type wrestlers who worked a lot over there. So it's not as quite as easy as say in a way the Territorial era because the historic, sorry, the rest of the world is historic and spread out. So it is, there is people in there that are going back to you know, the 1930s and around that time but also it's just spread out. So it is a challenge to those sit down and say these are everyone. I know them inside out. So I just wanted to preface that for your listeners. Whilst hopefully a lot of people have, have followed my work and see some more writing and some of the, some of my social media work, I don't profess to be the number one historian in the rest of the world category. I would shout out a couple of names in, in the rest of all category from a historian point of view and if people would like to seek out the work that would be people like Phil Lyons who I think is up there as one of the tippy top historians. His work around some of the guys that have come out of Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria, kind of that Eastern European area and even into France and Spain. He's really opened my eyes to a lot of candidates. So you've got someone like him and you've got someone like Ethan Tyler as well who again is, is very knowledgeable around the Rest of the World category has some salient points and someone I learned from every year because he does a lot of the shows with Dave Meltzer. Dave has a few people on, on the, on his Saturday shows around this time of the year. So we should see some of those shows coming out soon as well. So it's exciting time. We all, we all learn a lot at this time of the year. And I'm super excited about it.
[02:02:33] Speaker C: I love this time of year. And yeah, I, you know, I have put alerts on all of those people that you just mentioned, because I've become aware of them through you. And I'm always reposting the stuff that they have on Twitter because it, it's such an amazing group of information and it's stuff that people are not familiar with, obviously. And so let's talk here. One of the people that I know you really wanted to talk about about is a guy who. This will be his last year on the ballot, and that's Dominic Denucci.
[02:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah, Dominic Denucci. So he's been lumped into the Rest of the World category.
And there's an argument why is he not in the U.S. historical or North American historical category? Because of his runs in the WWF or wwwf, his links to Bruno, kind of being that tag team partner of Bruno in the, in the New York Northeast territory.
But that's just one side of him. Right? You know, he's someone that, if we start off, I think that the reason he's in the Rest of the World category is for his run down under in Australia with Jim Barnett.
Huge, huge, huge Australian Italian immigrant population in Australia.
Someone who's been lucky enough to visit Australia. I can say that firsthand.
Tons of. I've been to a couple of cities in Australia and tons of Italian restaurants, more so than you would see in most major cities outside of maybe the US and obviously Italy.
So he, he was a huge star for Jim Barnett for, I would say it was over half a decade. I would say that he was.
[02:04:08] Speaker C: I learned a lot about him when I did the Jim Barnett series for Briscoe and Bradshaw. On Jim Barnett, he was the, he was the Glo. I mean, he was a global top 10 draw during that period of time. I don't think people really understand how big Barnett's promotion was. And he was on top there for, like, you say, at least three to five years.
[02:04:28] Speaker B: So that's, that's one point for, for Dominic. Secondary point is he's running San Francisco as well. You know, he, he, he was very, very well used in San Francisco. Went often against Ray Stevens.
Did some great business there as well. So this is more the US Side of things now. But I think it would be very foolish to only focus on his case in the rest of the world and not cover his whole career. I think that, I think it's a bit of an odd way of looking at it. You can put him in one category.
But you don't need necessarily need to only talk about that category.
[02:05:05] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. It was a little bit like Roy, you know, he's in the non wrestler category but it's difficult for me to advocate for him without bringing up his, you know, 25 year wrestling career because it was such a pioneer career. There were, you know, being the first Southern Tag Team champions and the family involvement and all of that stuff. It's like I don't want to leave that stuff out. I mean he's obviously a Hall of Famer with all of his business and promoter and booking office stuff. But I think you got to take all of that other stuff into consideration even though you're only talking about the rest of the world category for Dominic.
[02:05:43] Speaker B: Agreed. And similar to Gorilla Monsoon, he's in the non wrestler category and I think it would be unfair just to cover that side of his career rather than the whole, the whole 360 view of his career. But yeah, getting back to Dominic as well, he's got a few other reasons why he is a strong candidate. He was a, he was a trainer of some big stars as well. You know, in Pittsburgh he had his training wrestling school in the 80s after his career wound down.
So he was someone that was Trey. Mick Foley. Mick Foley, huge star hall of Famer in his own right. Was in pretty sharpish after he was eligible. And then lesson up, not lesser known people because anyone who's listened to this will have heard of a Shane Douglas, but someone who didn't have a career as strong as a Mick Foley, but someone that was still a World's champion multiple times NWA World's Champion, ECW World's Champion, worked in WWF, WCW, ECW etc. So they're two of the, the main people that came out of under Dominic.
And then it's that linking to Pittsburgh again. So he was, he was a hometown hero. He was the 1B2, Bruno's 1A. You know, in Pittsburgh they worked well. They were attack team often weren't they? In, in, in. Not just in Pittsburgh but you know, in, in other cities in, in, in the WWF territory.
So it's his final year as well. Tony.
[02:07:01] Speaker C: I was going to say he's been on the ballot for 15 years.
[02:07:04] Speaker B: So, so I, I would encourage any, any voters to have more of a kind of think about Denucci.
I know we're gonna talk. I think there's maybe 15 people on this, on this ballot for rest of the world. So I don't want to spend too Much time on a single candidate. I want to give everyone as much air time as possible. I think that's. Otherwise we'll be here for three or four hours also. Enjoy that.
Listens. Might not, of course.
[02:07:29] Speaker C: Well, of course Dominic is in his 15th year and he needs at least 50%.
Billy Joyce is also somebody who's in their final year on the ballot.
[02:07:39] Speaker B: Well, Billy Joyce, he's getting back to who was at the emissions in 1996. I think Billy Joyce is someone who fits that cat, that example really well.
He is someone that the likes of Carl Gotch were respected hugely. He's someone that came from the Wigan snake pit. So we'll wind back a little bit. So I'm lucky enough that I'm from Lancashire in England. So Lancashire's got a reputation of being a very. A place where a lot of talented wrestlers have come out from over the years. So in modern times, you've got the British Bulldogs, you know, Dynamite David Boy Smith, they're two examples. But there's a lot of. A lot of talent that came out of Billy Robinson's school.
Even, even more modern people that would have trained there.
What's his name now?
My mind's gone blank, typically. Apologies, Tony, but I'll come back to it in a minute. A few different people that will come out there.
But the, the snake pit, Billy Riley's school itself churned out a lot of talented shooters, grapplers, hookers, whatever you want to call them. And Carl Gotch referred to Billy Joyce as the last great hooker. He was the last great hooker to come out of that Wigan snake pit. I think the thing with Billy Joyce, which people don't realize is. Sorry. What hurts him is there's not. There's hardly any footage of him which, which plays a factor. He didn't wrestle outside of kind of the rest of the world category. So he was never in Japan, he was never in. In the U.S. in, in North America. So I think that that hurts him for some people. But if we look from a lineage. Lineage point of view, Carl Gotch is seen as the God of wrestling in Japan, right? Carl Gotch is one of those people. Obviously you've got Yuriki Dozens and. And co. But, you know, Carl Gotch after that was seen as someone that helped shape Japanese wrestling, I would be fair to say. So I hit people like him and Billy Robinson and others. Carl Gotch wouldn't be Carl Gotch if it wasn't for Billy Joyce. Billy Joyce was his trainer. Billy Joyce was the person that really made Carl Gotch the man that he was. And we know about Carl Gotch's career in an instant hall of Famer. So if we go from an influence point of view, Billy Joyce is one of those people that if he didn't exist, people that came after him, that hall of Famers potentially wouldn't either. So I always look at it like that in a kind of linear sense. Would that person be here because of this person, yes or no? Not saying that should then be the sole reason why someone should be devoted.
[02:10:06] Speaker C: Credibility should be a consideration. And we talk about that on the show all the time. I mean, there wouldn't be a Paul Bosch without Morris Siegel. There wouldn't be Jerry Jarrett without Roy Welch. You know, I think those are things that we're so far away from those people's involvement in the business that some of that gets lost. And I think that's why we have, you know, people like me and people like you that constantly bring these people back up because we studied the lineage and we have to remind people, you know, this is how the progression kind of moved along.
Billy Joyce was a British heavyweight champion.
So, I mean, multiple. Yeah, yeah, multiple times.
And again, he is somebody that has to get over the 50%. But he, you know, he's. He's had some awareness raised about his name in the last couple years. He really had some momentum last year, didn't he, during the vote?
[02:10:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he's on that cusp now. And I think, you know, that being needed to get 50% to get a stay of execution, I think there's a strong chance of that. And we look at all the candidates that are on the ballot in the Japanese category, you've got Fujiwara.
People are very upset. There's a lot of people are big fans of the uwf, that kind of shoot style that split off from New Japan in the 80s.
[02:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:11:18] Speaker B: And Fijiwara was kind of one of the. The main proponents of that. He wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Billy Joyce, because you've got your Billy Joyce into your Carl Gotch, into your Fujiwara. So you can tell a story to how wrestling has progressed. And a lot of that influence of that kind of shoot style, let's call it, or more ultra realistic style we still see. See today in professional wrestling, in the style of certain wrestlers, down to someone like a Volta, a gunther.
He comes from that kind of style in a way that stylistic.
And again, that's the influence of a Billy Joyce.
He's someone I don't. From a drawing perspective, I Think that's where things are a bit murkier in terms of research. You can argue he was an alright draw rather than a super strong draw. So I think for me, the way I would look at him would be from a longevity point of view because he was around. He was born in 1916, died in 2000.
So he was a fair age. He was 84, but I think his career spanned the 40s, 50s, 60s. So we had three decades there of Billy Joyce and then his influence as well and the people influenced.
[02:12:24] Speaker C: Most wonderful conversation with Jody Malinko this past summer at the Waterloo. He had just returned from going over to the Snake Pit for the summer and yeah, I mean Billy Joyce, I mean, trust us, he needs to be strongly considered for sure. Now a guy who's been very, I think the world has been educated on that I had no idea about. But was. Is Jose Torres.
[02:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So Jose Torres again for me, Spanish wrestling, you could you say, well, what's your most memorable thing about Spanish wrestling? And up until a few years ago I would say WWF ran there in the early 90s and Undertaker lost clean to Tito Santana on a house show in, in the early 90s in Spain. You know, there's not much kind of knowledge I had outside of that more modern shows. Some US shows that have run over there and then some guys that have come out with the Spanish scene over the last few years. You've got someone who's called a kid. He now works in WWF as Axiom in his masked guy. Fantastic, fantastic, fantastic wrestler. And there's some, there's a bit of a scene bubbling up but apart from that I didn't know much about the history of Spanish wrestling and if there was really a history and boy, I was wrong.
[02:13:40] Speaker C: So it really is.
[02:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I talked about Phil Lyons as a researcher before and Phil was key, is key to kind of uncovering a lot of the history of Spanish wrestling and clearly the amount of crowds that someone like Jose Torres would draw. He was, he was probably the most overlooked major draw in history of professional wrestling. That's not in the hall of Fame. That's how strong he was as a, as a candidate. Multiple, multiple over 10,000 pound.
[02:14:09] Speaker A: 10,000.
[02:14:09] Speaker B: 10,000 tickets sold. I think there's at least three examples of him drawing over 20,000 off his name alone. And you know, sometimes nowadays, especially Tony, you cut. It's harder to say such and such a person is a draw. You know, it's, it's more, it's the brand, it's the. There's other factors but at that time, especially in, in that era, wrestlers were the drawers, not the promotion, not the match. It was a, it was the individual wrestlers. So he would work in major cities in Japan. Sorry, in Japan, in Spain. So Barcelona, Valencia, Madrid and a lot of bull wings in Spain.
[02:14:47] Speaker C: And so I've got a note here that he drew 22,000 for a 1948 title win after only about a year and a half of being in the business. I mean he got over quick and had about a 20 year career. So his career spanned, you know, I guess from the 40s to the 60s.
So let's continue on with our discussion about Jose Torres.
[02:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so to Jose Torres is someone that drew huge crowds. He's on top in Barcelona as an example.
80 appearances as a headliner in Barcelona at large venues. So large venues are anything above 5,000.
So 80 occasions of that over a career in one city is, is a lot when you really think about it. There's, there's, there's other examples of that. Obviously like a Jerry Lawler in Memphis is more than that, but I still think that's super impressive. But it wasn't just Spain, Tony, it was also a headliner and a draw in France. So it wasn't just stuck to one country. There's people I've advocated before and people that I will do on this ballot this year, they've only got really an example of a career in one, one country. Whereas Jose Taras was a big draw in multiple countries. Also did some bits in, in Portugal as far as I'm aware. But, but he, he's someone that was on top for 20 years. He's the biggest star in that country. And if we look at wrestling in the round, in the hole, in on the hole, I always think that there should be representation from each country that had a wrestling scene. So Spain doesn't have anyone at the moment. Spain's a big old country. It had a huge wrestling scene. There's examples of that. So to not have the major draw from that territory but that country not in the hall of Fame, I think is a bit of an omission. So he's someone I voted for. I think this is his third year on the ballot. Tony and I voted for him every year because I think he's such a strong candidate. Just because of his, the amount of venues he did sellouts for and over 10,000.
[02:16:49] Speaker C: Well, he was only two votes short last year. And I think, you know, if, if we're supposed to be looking at long term top stars in major European markets, I Mean, it's clearly, clearly unfinished business. And I think he'll get in this year, surely, no doubt about it. Now another guy that American fans will be somewhat familiar with, especially if they go back at any time at all in the territory era because he was an AWA world champion is Otto Vons.
[02:17:21] Speaker B: Yeah, Otto Von is an interesting candidate.
Australian pro wrestler, Austrian, sorry, pro wrestler.
That was very, very popular for us considerable amount of time in both Austria and in Germany. A lot of people are under the misconception, Tony, that Otto had his own territory in the early 80s and in the 70s that's not the case. He was the promoter in the late 80s. There was, there was still the, the tournaments that happened. He promoted a lot of them for in, in cities like Bremen and where you got a lot of wrestlers from around the world applying the craft and trade. You know, people like Owen Hart would go there later on. People like even Lance storm into the 90s would do these tournaments and these are tournaments that would last around 30 to 40 days in a big tent in the same city. So to be drawing consistently over a period is super impressive. I mean as an example, in 1991 over 38 days they recorded over 100,000 fans going through the tent to watch those shows over a 38 day period with Otto on top. So Otto someone, along with Peter Wilhelm was a promoter that isn't talked about a lot, but I think it was Peter Wilhelm that held the promotion for years and then Otto took over a little bit later on. There's, there's some arguments, Tony, and you might know this more than me, but I've always been under the assumption that the reason Otto got the title in 82 abwinkle was he paid for the opportunity to do that. Would you have you heard the same?
[02:19:01] Speaker C: Yes, and I think that hurts him. I think that people discount him somewhat because they look at it as. It's a little bit like Baba's NWA runs that. But he, because he paid the cash to get the title that somehow that, that discounts it. But I don't, I'm not sure I would look at it that way. I think it really, it doesn't count anyway because it's supposed to be a European category.
But you know, I've, I've learned a lot about Otto just because John Bradshaw Layfield worked for him and went on tours with him and things like that.
I, I don't even know if his AWA stuff should even count. But you know, he did defend the title against Andre the Giant and also Big Van Vader. So I mean to me those are significant appearances in Europe with the title. So I think that should actually be part of the, the plus side of the category.
[02:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah, the, the Vader was for the cwa, so that was the championship. Yeah, this is where Vader was like a world champion in three, in three continents at the same time. So Japan with the uwfi WCW and then that. So but yeah, that was, that was from Otto's promotion. I watched a match about two weeks ago. This is a very old Otto Vance. This is in maybe 1997, 98 against Terry Funk. I posted some clips on my X my Twitter showing that my and, and Terry was just fabulous. He was just, you know, bumping, bumping, bumping for Otto. Otto was pretty big by that point, you know, not in the best shape. But Terry just sold his ass off for him. But Otto was over still.
Otto Vons is basically. I've always seen him as a better worker than a Big Daddy. Very similar in the style the big man people would bounce off him, bump for him. I think Otto was a little bit more mobile in the ring than Big Daddy but both have got similar cases in a way. I wouldn't say the same, but I say similar. Otto Vance as well is someone that I think he hold. He held the world record for ripping the most amount of telephone books up in 30 seconds with his bare hands or something wacky like that. So he had a bit of fame with the Guinness Book of Records with that. But if we're fair and I, I know I'm. I don't want to be a hypocrite. So I think Otto is probably the biggest guy on the ballot from Austria and Germany.
He's not in but I was advocating for Jose Tara Tarez in Spain. So I might need to really think am I being fair to Otto's case if I'm not, you know, advocating him, but I'm advocating Atares. Don't get me wrong, the, the examples aren't the same in the careers. Otto wasn't as big a draw as Jose Taros was nationally. He wasn't as well known.
But his promotion being there in the late 80s and doing the, the shows in the same cities like Graz and Bremen, Berlin etc, He was able to give a lot of wrestlers a lot of experience by working the same crowd every day for 30, 40 days. You've got to adapt your style, right. You can't just be working the same pattern match. Like if you're on the road doing house shows for, you know, one of the bigger US promotions you can do the same match over 20, 20 days, 20 nights. And a lot of fans wouldn't realize they don't travel. But here you have to mix it up. So having that opportunity for wrestlers to do that would have really improved them very quickly. So a lot of, you know, a lot of Canadian guys went over there as you said, jbl and I reckon if you ask jbl, did you get quick, did you get better quickly because of that experience, it absolutely would be
[02:22:37] Speaker C: yes, yes, he has said that before.
Now it's impossible to keep your biases out of these things. I mean we all have to realize that all human beings have a certain amount of bias involved. And this next person, I have a lot of bias involved because he's just kind of a personal favorite of mine because I've learned about him through Steve Verrier and some various people. And because Luthez picked him as one guy, he would drop the NWA title too. But let's talk about George Gordienko.
[02:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah, so Gordienko another example of someone that may have been mission in 96 for Dave original class.
I think the Lou Fez link as well where I, I see that lose respected the hell out of him was he. They went to a 90 minute draw in Edmonton in 1955 when Lou was on top as the world's champion.
And to go 90 minutes with Lou and Lou let you do that is. Is a feather in your cap. And like you said Tony, for Lou to say, I advocate for George to be, you know, a world champion. He should be given a chance to with the title goes to say how much he was well respected, super long career as well. And very interesting career, very interesting man Tony later on he was an artist, you know, very respected artist.
He was, he was a reissance man in a way. I mean he, he worked Royal Albert hall tournament. Won that in 1970 in the UK. That was a big deal winning those tournaments. Royal Albert hall was the most respected venue in the uk. Still, still is.
[02:24:11] Speaker C: Well, I was gonna say a lot of people know him from Canada, but he lived and was based in the UK for the last part of his career.
[02:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah, he was, he was, he found a home in the uk but that's again one side of him. He was an international star. That he was maybe the strongest case for an international star. The problem is we have little footage of him but he was a major draw in New Zealand, Greece, India, Britain, Canada.
Australia.
You know, this is. These are major places over a period of, you know, 2025 years and then had the respect from a Luthers on top of that, that he should be given the world title. I think he's got an exceptionally strong case.
[02:24:53] Speaker C: Well, it's a different framework in which to look at somebody because if you look at a Jose Taras, he was, you know, a singular national box office king, whereas Gordyenko just was a headliner and drew a lot of money in several different. Of these Air International areas we're talking about, so.
[02:25:12] Speaker B: Areas and areas.
[02:25:14] Speaker C: Yeah. So it's a different way of looking at it. I don't think one trumps the other, but I just think he's overlooked because as you said, we don't have a lot. There's not a lot of footage flying
[02:25:25] Speaker B: around about him knowing he was. He hung out with Picasso in Spain before as well. That's something. Picasso, they hung out a cafe.
Picasso bought him a coffee. That's. That's a cool little footnote as well. Very similar artistic style as a, as an artist. I, I think I posted a photo the other. The other week actually of some of his, his art that he was drawing.
But yeah, I would love to be able to see more footage of him because I think he would be what I would see as a wrestler's wrestler. Really technical.
I don't think he was super flashy as a wrestler, but I don't think he needed to be in that era. I think he was a very, very solid hand over multiple decades.
[02:26:02] Speaker C: Now, let's talk about somebody that I know American fans are very familiar with because there is a lot of video footage of him and he, he worked in the, in the, in the video era here, but he's actually been declining in the vote. And that's Adrian Street.
[02:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I've got a problem with Adrian Street, Tony, I think, and I'll get into that in a minute. I think, think where you will know a lot about him is Continental, I'm guessing, you know, Tennessee.
[02:26:29] Speaker C: Tennessee, yeah.
[02:26:31] Speaker A: He.
[02:26:32] Speaker B: He's someone. And, and this is my bias, I think, Tony, and I'll. I'll be honest with that. We've all got them. He was very, very, very anti Crabtrees, anti Big Daddy. So the Crabtrees were the powerhouse promoters in the uk.
Brother Big Daddy was.
Shirley Crabtree was the, the major star in the UK from the mid-70s all the way up to the end of the TV era. So a decade and a half there. And Adrian street, because of his size, it was a very short man. You know, this is why I think, you know, he excelled in A southern territory like Tennessee. I didn't think that hurt him. There was a lot of smaller wrestlers out there. Build on the great example. Similar, similar size.
[02:27:13] Speaker A: He.
[02:27:14] Speaker C: And just so happens that Bill Dundee booked a lot of the places that Adrian worked. Worked.
[02:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[02:27:20] Speaker C: Because they got along well and Bill knew that style as well.
[02:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah, he's. He could work a number of different styles so. Well, let's talk about what his positives are, rather than me just poo pooing him as a candidate, because I don't think that's fair. We need. I need to look at him, you know, holistically rather than just my. My slight biases. But yeah, he was a star in the UK. He had a gimmick in the 70s that was provocative. He was like a modern. Sorry, a forerunner to a gold dust character in a way. You didn't know which way he swung, you know, his sexuality. And back in the day, unfortunately, as a historians, Tony, we can't shy away from this. The same as what we talked about online the other week around the kind of promoting some of the black stars and what they were referred to in the territory era. Similar here.
He was put on top because he was provocative and people felt he was, you know, bring out people's homophobic tendencies on a man like that. And what confused people was he had a female valet, Ms. Linda, she was
[02:28:17] Speaker C: fabulous, by the way. I thought she was. Was great.
[02:28:20] Speaker B: So. And there's those famous photos of him in the UK that you will have seen, Tony. Where his dad worked, it was Welsh, was Adrian Street. So his dad in Wales worked as a coal miner. So very hard job. And there's that photo shoot where Adrian turns up in his full bodysuit with his wig, with his makeup and he's there pictured with his dad in the coal mine. It's such a contrast between the kind of flamboyant Adrian street and the kind of that working class kind of job that people did in that era.
So he, he was a star in the uk. He was on TV quite a lot because of what we talked about. His, his gimmick, his look. He stood out. 70s glam rock, a lot of that was. Was very popular here in the uk. Bands like T Rex, Mark Bolan and he. And he kind of tapped into that. He wore the big platform shoes when he wasn't wrestling. Needed that really, because he was quite a short guy, as I say. But.
But he was. He was around for years. He began in the 50s, so this is.
This is someone who had the longevity, but he found Himself into that gimmick later on in his career before he left to. To go over to the US, into the American territories with Ms. Linda. But he was around since the 50s. He was a big TV star. He was an excellent character performer. There was a few character performers that came out the UK in that era that would have a gimmick, him being one of the stronger ones, him being the more memorable ones. What sours me on him is his personal issues with the crab trees. And then Big Daddy.
[02:29:49] Speaker C: Really?
[02:29:49] Speaker B: Really. Then he would talk about Big Daddy being this awful wrestler Big Daddy, you know, not being able to be fit to lace Adrian Street's boots. And. And that spread over to a lot of historians in the us, I feel, and still to this day, because of someone like Adrian, we know had people's ear in the 80s, in the 90s. Adrian's written quite a few books, books on wrestling, interesting books, let's just say some of his. Some of his stories.
But I think what's.
I don't think he was one of the greater British wrestlers of that era. I think his gimmick, it was. It was very solid, don't get me wrong. But from a technical point of view, there was far better wrestlers. And there's someone we might get on to who or two people actually was on this list that I think were stronger in ring wrestlers, but as a gimmick, completely memorable. And he was one of the.
The first people that was openly flamboyant in that. Obviously before that you had a Ricky star in the US who had the fame again. Another a guy that came over from the UK and others that kind of tapped into that.
[02:30:48] Speaker E: Even.
[02:30:48] Speaker C: Even a Gorgeous George, you know, there's some speculation, you know, about which way, you know, he get. He was going, you know.
[02:30:55] Speaker B: Exactly. I think Adrian took it to that next level and especially very brave to do so. Tony. In the 70s in some of the southern territories. Oh, my God. To have a gimmick like that, or even into the 80s, I'm imagining he was a heat magnet.
[02:31:10] Speaker C: He was. Okay, well, let's get on to somebody I think you might be referring to, because he made a huge splash last year in his first year on the ballot. Teddy Boy Marino.
[02:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So Ted Boy Marino, onto my point earlier about representation from different countries being their top star.
Ted Boy Marino. And this is thanks to a historian who has a vote. Verb Abrams. It's not Herb. Verb. Verb Abrams, who.
Who really, really bought into Ted Boy Marino's case so much. So he traveled to Brazil. He's gone and found the plaque on the beach in Sao Paulo where Ted Boy Marino was a lifeguard. And a few years before he was arresting him, there's a plaque of him.
[02:31:53] Speaker E: There's.
[02:31:53] Speaker B: And he wanted to know firsthand what was he really the star that we've read that he was. And the findings that verb made was yes, absolutely. Was still known to this day. Very similar to different countries. So in the UK you name professional wrestler. A lot of people would say a.
A giant Haystacks or a McManus as an example.
And they were people that have not been on TV in decades. Ted Boy Marino fits that bill. Ted Boy Marino was the major star in Brazil. Ted Boy Marino was the person that was not actually from South America. He was an Italian immigrant that then was able to find fame in Brazil. Argentina.
And he's someone that was. Was huge on telecatch. That was the.
He was the heroic figure on telecatch. Telecatch was the Brazilian TV show.
And his popularity wasn't just in wrestling. He appeared in mainstream entertainment shows, on tv, in movies, in comedy.
It was also someone that released records songs. There was 7 and 12 inch singles that he released that did very well. He was on the front cover of the Brazilian TV Guide. Very similar that in America. You can point to. Maybe it's two people. One if it's Hogan who was a wrestler, you know, was a pro wrestler at the time. Danny Hodge was still an amateur, I think when he appeared on the. On the COVID Correct me if I'm wrong.
[02:33:21] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it was his year that he was a national NCAA champion.
[02:33:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but, yeah, but Hogan being on. On the course. So. And that was a big deal. So Ted Boy Marino being on the COVID there through his telecatch days, major, major celebrity.
He. He's someone that had had mainstream prominence and vital importance in the history of Brazilian wrestling. Brazilian wrestling is a footnote in the world of wrestling. I'm not going to kid myself. I'm not going to sit here and say I know the ins and outs of telecatch. I'm gonna struggle to name more than three people and from telecatch era. But for someone to get that popular. He was an immigrant himself, Italian, so didn't speak the same language either. So he didn't speak port. He wasn't Brazilian. Brazilians speak Portuguese, Argentinian speak Spanish. So his native tongue was Italian. And nevertheless he still was able to carve out a career as that kind of pin up matinee star.
Huge star. Tony, I. I cannot under. Under state Ted Boy Marino's case, no brainer for me. Absolute no brainer to be in. Which is. Which is hard to always vote for him, though, because we only have four last year, four votes in the caf. In the, in the region. Now we've got five.
[02:34:39] Speaker C: So a sense of urgency on a couple. So, you know, you want to, you want, you know, it's, it's a difficult decision. And I also think, first of all, I will give the wrestling observer so much credit for trying to provide and create space for these particular people because Brazil kind of is an awkward.
It's sitting awkwardly to me in the rest of the world category, and it's so close to Mexico geographically.
And so I'm just very proud of the observer for trying to include all of these other rest of the world candidates so that we get a large representation of just how popular pro wrestling has been in its history. History.
[02:35:28] Speaker B: Yes, I agree. And you know, we call the category Rest of the World. The category is actually called the Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, Africa region. Yeah, but notice that no South America.
[02:35:42] Speaker C: Right.
[02:35:42] Speaker B: Not South America. So should there be an argument that the. Should be a Central and South American region, obviously with Mexico having the most number of candidates, or would that hurt a Ted Boy Marino more?
[02:35:54] Speaker C: That's. That's. You said. What I was struggling to say is it's almost like there should be a Latin American list, maybe, or something. I don't know.
[02:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah, but then who else is on it just to make that Latin America? Well, actually, no, there is other countries that, you know, had wrestling examples outside of just Brazil.
[02:36:13] Speaker C: And as people like the guy you mentioned do more and more research, we're going to learn about more and more people.
So I think, you know, we're going to discover so much more about wrestling in Spain and wrestling in Latin America and wrestling in Greece and all of these different places that in Italy that maybe we didn't know before. We were just totally unaware. But these great guys who are going and doing this research, the guy went all the way to Brazil to dig out this information.
I'm just so excited about guys that are so committed to that.
[02:36:49] Speaker B: Me too. And, and it's great to still learn. You know, it for me, is a.
I wouldn't say I'm a historian. I've been badged as one. I get. I'm lucky enough to get the opportunity to vote in the hall of Fame.
[02:36:59] Speaker C: You are one. You are.
[02:37:01] Speaker B: I'm a fan that likes the history of pro wrestling, but, you know, it's very kind of you to say that.
[02:37:06] Speaker C: Tony, here's the thing. I mean I think the definition and the actions of, of modern day historians are much different from the ones that we originally the original group of historians that sort of emerged starting with James Melby with the written newsletters and things of that nature. But now we're in a multimedia, multi experience world and I think people who dig out this information and present it in a multimedia fashion are historians.
They're just not the, not the written newsletter or written published book author historians we have known in the past. I think they're just, they're a new breed of historian and I think that's
[02:37:51] Speaker B: where I've always struggled and thanks for that. But I think I've always seen the who's the kind of those historians that stand like tippy top to me, like a Tom Burke, J. Michael Kenyon, Steve Yohei, that type of kind of historian. They've written books, you know, and the amount of research they've done, obviously Wrestling Classics is a great resource and they're guys that posted a lot of things on there over the 25, all over that now. It's been there since like the late 90s that, that website. So new breed of wrestling historians, I guess is a way to look at it. But no, thank you. But yeah, I think Ted Boy Marino, I'm likely going to vote for him this year.
I would say he's someone that people should invest time in and not sleep on him, put it that way.
[02:38:39] Speaker C: Here's a French Canadian who was on the ballot for the first time last year as well.
Gilbert Ledoux.
[02:38:47] Speaker B: Yeah, Gilbert Ladue. So there's a handful of people where I'm still in the process, Tony, of learning about them and learning where they sit in pro wrestling history. So we've got him, got a couple new people on this year. We've got Mark Mercier. Hey, we've got Lapipra, Lapi, Prince and yeah, they're the one. Oh, and Andreas Lambrakis as well, who's a Greek pro wrestler.
Still not going to be confident enough to say this is the reason why you need to vote for this person. There was a podcast done.
There's a podcast series talking about new hall of Fame candidates that's on the Voices of Wrestling podcast network.
[02:39:23] Speaker A: Network.
[02:39:23] Speaker B: Tony, I know you've done some shows with those guys.
[02:39:27] Speaker C: I'm on a brand new show with them right now, by the way, so.
[02:39:30] Speaker B: Oh, watch.
[02:39:31] Speaker C: I'm doing the historical category so.
[02:39:33] Speaker B: Well, I'll look forward to that. But no, there's a, there's one, it's called the Ballot and on there they feature a candidate that's new to the. New to the ballot, so to speak, every year. So some shows over the last few years where they've talked about Tibo Zakas, who's on the, on the ballot this year. So he had someone advocating for him.
Someone's done Gilbert Ladoo, I think that was last year. I think he was on last year as well. So whilst I can confidently speak about, you know, your Billy Joyce's, your Steve Grays, less of the Royal Brothers and Killer Car Cox and people like that, these people that have come from places in the world that I'm not as familiar with, I'm, I'm not the right person maybe to really go in a deep dive around that. Quinn I don't want to do your readers injustice by just, just being surface level, Tony. I'd rather point them in the direction. So if anyone's listening here that would like a link to kind of where we talk of people talk about a Gilbert Ledoux, please reach out to me. I'm happy to send the link where you can inform more detailed opinions to probably what I can give to you today. All I know about him really was he was such a big figure in post war French wrestling.
He was involved since the 40s, not just in France. He would be involved in the 50s in like they had tournaments in Berlin and places like that.
He was a draw over places like Spain, Germany, Morocco. It wasn't just France. So he's got a case that's more outside of one country. But to really get into the nuts and bolts about who his major rivals were, what his drawing record with. I think there's far more qualified historians than me, Tony, to talk on that.
[02:41:07] Speaker C: All right, well, let's talk about somebody. You mentioned him briefly there in the British area, but Steve Gray, Steve Gray,
[02:41:15] Speaker B: pound for pound, is one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time from an in ring perspective. Tony, I will wax lyrical on Steve Gray as a, as a, as a professional wrestler in that traditional sense as much as anyone else. He had the precision, the speed, his ability as a sympathetic baby face was up there with like a Mickey Morton was, was so good at invoking and getting the crowd into him, male and female. So he wasn't just a blue eye that was appealed to the, the female fans. He was someone who was a master at selling, someone that would do flash pins. He had such a great rivalry with Jim Breaks. Jim Breaks is another guy I think is one of the greatest pro wrestling Heels of all time. Unfortunately, Jim Breaks has been dropped off the ballot. Not a decision I agree with with Dave, but pulling the curtain back. Jim Breaks got accused of something heinous in his later years. Very similar to a Vern Garn Garnier when he was burn was in the care home and with dementia and then going too far with someone else maybe when he wasn't in the right state of mind. Not going to excuse it, but this person died. And I think that he was never found guilty because I think Jim, Jim Breaks then died himself, you know, so he never, he never went to trial for that. This was in, in one of the islands off Spain where a lot of expat expats in the UK go and retire to Gran Canaria. So he, he didn't seek justice. But Steve Gray had this rivalry with Jim Breaks for years and years and years. So 70s into the 80s and Jim. Steve Gray went through into the 90s.
I would say. Steve Gray is overshadowed, unfortunately by someone like Johnny Sage Saint. Johnny Saint. Someone who's had that light shone on him because of a lot of influence from the US indie wrestlers of the early 2000s discovered those world of Sport tapes. So people like a Chris Hero, people like Colt Cabana, two guys that love the British wrestling style, they would really, really love Johnny Saints. Same with Bryan Danielson. But Steve Gray, if people take the time to watch Steve Gray in ring, there's plenty of footage out there against Jim Breaks is a starting point. But I would encourage the listeners and viewers of, of your show, Tony, to just go and watch one Steve Gray match and then really, really think, was this a fantastic wrestler?
His career span, like I said, Tony, over 20 years, 25 years. It was well after ITV stopped airing wrestling in 88. He had the long longevity. I think his biggest weakness would be his drawing power. He was never really positioned as a headline attraction. He was someone that would be a big daddy tag team partner. He was never positioned as a kind of a top heavyweight. But in British wrestling it wasn't as much heavyweights that always got, you know, over it. There was, there was lightweights and others as well.
[02:44:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I was gonna say he fit more in the light weight welterweight kind of category. Right.
[02:44:18] Speaker B: And yeah, it was a long time.
[02:44:19] Speaker C: Yeah, he barely made the 10% cut off.
So, you know, he's gonna have to pick up some momentum to stay on the ballot, I think.
[02:44:29] Speaker D: Yeah.
[02:44:30] Speaker B: And it'll take people like me in British historian Tony Earnshaw and to really push that case forward. I want to be realistic. I don't think he's ever going to get over that, that 50, 60. Sorry to get in, but I don't feel that he's someone that should show up for one year and then drop off and never be spoken about again. If the only thing that we get from him being on the ballot is for people to understand how good a professional wrestler he was and then not always default to Johnny Saint as the British wrestler everyone's heard of, from a technical point of view, I think that will be enough. His legacy will be out there further than the people that know about him here in the uk. So, yeah, Steve Grape, if people could check out some of his stuff on YouTube, you would probably be a little bit more confident to say he was a fantastic pro wrestler.
[02:45:15] Speaker C: Well, who else is on this list that you want to really talk about and educate folks on?
[02:45:21] Speaker B: Well, the Royal brothers. So the Royal brothers, for me, the tag team, that's Bert Royal and Vic Faulkner, don't have the same surname, but they were brothers. They just had different working names.
They were probably the strongest tag team to come out of Britain ever. You know, out of Britain who worked only in Britain. So obviously the Bulldog Bulldogs, you know, I'm not gonna kid myself and say they've got a stronger case in their bulldogs, because they absolutely don't. But as a tag team that had longevity from the early 70s, Bert himself. If we go back even further, Bert Royal appeared in ITV's first wrestling broadcast in, in 1955. Oh, so, yeah, and they, they, they participated in the first televised British tag match In, I think, September, October 63.
So they were synonymous with tag team wrestling in the 60s. And it was more the 70s where color TV came in. So you had color wrestling on TV and I think there was more footage from them. So hardly any footage from the 60s, as you'd imagine. Tony. It's the same in, in every territory.
There is, though, footage out there that. No, not out there. ITV have got all the footage they kept, they keep an archive that's kept under lock and key, that's, that's preserved in kind of the right amount of heat and climate. It's all, it's all there. But to go and investigate and get time, it's thousands and thousands of dollars, thousands and thousands of pounds to go and get them, to go in and try and find footage, because a lot of it's unlabeled. They've not made sense of it all. But the ITV archives go back to 55. Just in all the history of ITV as a station and there's stuff out there that we know they've got or were confident that we just don't have access to. So one day I've tried to pretend I'm working for a major TV production company and doing ways to just try and get intimate contacts.
[02:47:18] Speaker C: Right.
[02:47:18] Speaker B: I've tried to go through AEW's relationship with ITV to try and get in that way. I failed that way. Other historians like a John Lister, he's a well known UK historian, reading books on UK wrestling history and others. He's tried. He's got a website, itv wrestling.com.com that documents the history of TV, the ITV results. He's got links to every single known match that's out there, that's on YouTube, all linked to the results. That's a great resource. ITV Wrestling. But the, the Royal Brothers as a tag team, there's not a huge amount of footage. The footage we are lucky to have shows them as wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. What a tag team. You could plug those guys into the Southern, the Southern US tag team scene in the 70s and wow, what they would do the same as like, or even more than like a Tony Charles did in Memphis and people out of that style.
[02:48:13] Speaker C: Bill Dundee and George Barnes.
[02:48:15] Speaker B: Yeah, Bill Dundee and George Barnes as well.
Billy Robinson being another person as well. Billy Robson was a heavyweight. Obviously these guys are slightly lighter but the, the technical ability, speed and I think their natural understanding of how to engage an audience was second to none. They, they played, they were blue eyes, baby faces in, in their tag team partnership. But they, they were, they a one British tag team. They, like I said, first British, first tag team wrestling on TV was them. Their longevity from the 60s into the 70s. So, so any tag team has a run of, you know, over five, six years because with tag team wrestling there's a lot of moving parts. One guy might fall out with the other, they might want to do different things, you know, the way their lives may split, you know, in different ways. So to have the amount of longevity and it helps that they were, they were related, I think that that plays a good part that you'll stick together. But yeah, longevity and in ring talent and the ability to draw as a tag team and being that that first tag team on TV is a huge kind of reason why I think they were really strong candidates.
[02:49:19] Speaker C: Wow, I'm impressed. I gotta go watch a Royal Brothers match now.
[02:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah, please do Tony, and then come and let me know what you think. There's a couple from the early 70s in color that are on YouTube and I think you'll, you'll have a blast watching them. So maybe a little project for you over the next couple of weeks.
[02:49:36] Speaker C: I've made a note, I'm gonna check it out. So who else is on the list and what's the overall participation in this category? Do you know Alan?
[02:49:46] Speaker B: Like, like it's the lowest I think this is out of all the categories. I think the.
[02:49:50] Speaker C: Well that's why we're trying to educate people. Right?
[02:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I think you and people aren't confident for the reason I've mentioned that it's such a wide ranging category. So me who's someone that has written articles on my sub stack on British wrestling, on British wrestlers, the meaning of it, the importance of it. That's only one area. Britain itself's a country, you know, it's one country out of how many are covered? So Africa, how many countries are in Africa?
Australasia is Australia, New Zealand, you've got Pacific Islands and Europe. How many countries are in Europe? So the problem you've got in this region is it's so spread out you aren't gonna get any one historian that's going to be an expert in all of it because it spans everything. There's guys here looking back from the forties all the way up to, you know the, the eighties are on here. So it's very, very difficult to be an expert expert in it all. But a couple of other people want to spend time talking about today is is first one is Killer Carl Cox. Yeah. So he's also on in that risk of being falling off the ballot and I've been lucky enough over the last six months to connect to his son. His son has got a presence on, on X. Loves, you know, educating people about his father and I've really, really shocked how I assumed the wrong thing about Killer Carl Cox and his ability. I've been over the last few years I've really done more of a deep dive on Japanese wrestling. Really got super interested, managed to get all of some sources of some great photos from likes of Tokyo Sports archive that I kind of, I've had access to. So I've really tried to kind of push stuff. So I go through every day and look at kind of the history of wrestling. Killer Carl Cox in Japan was a huge deal. Was a huge, huge deal in Japan and that's only one area of him. But his runs in, in all Japan specifically was very successful. Had a great relationship with Giant Baba but he also outside of that Australia he was an integral part of the Boom years. He would be kind of one of the lead heels working against the likes of the Nucci, Mario Milano and Spirio Sarion, who were the kind of those ethnic heroes. So he would be the. The big kind of balding brute.
He's someone that. His career span years as well. There's. There's things of him in the Pfeffer collection that's in Notre Dame all the way up to the 80s. I think I learned the other day that he was still wrestling in Texas up until the mid-80s. On smaller shows, he saw wrestling licenses. He would be involved after that, he would be a referee. He's someone that worked. Texas was massive in Texas, Florida and Georgia as well. So I'm interested for you, Tony. Do you think Killer Carl Cox is someone that fits, should fit into this rest of the world category, considering how.
How good he was and Biggie was in Texas, Florida and elsewhere?
[02:52:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's harder for fans to relate. I mean, they obviously ran.
Relate to his runs in Amarillo and in Dallas's territory and in The Watts and McGurk territory and things of that nature because of his mentorship of Dick Murdoch and their relationship and matches and feuds and those kinds of things. So, yeah, I think he just. When you see his name associated with this category, it just. Even though he was a world traveler and he had a lot of success elsewhere, it just, it. I think your brain goes on tilt a little bit when you see him there.
[02:53:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, he's.
I think he's difficult because he's actually a varied career and that in itself is impressive. Right?
[02:53:31] Speaker C: You know, yeah, of course.
[02:53:33] Speaker B: Stick to one place he was successful.
You know, the inventor of the. Was he probably the Brain Buster? Yeah. So if he wasn't the first person to do it, he was the one that popularized it. And that's still a move used to this day. What a cool move, though. You know, the Brain Buster and the name of it as well. I don't know if he named it that, but I, I love that move.
The person I think did it the best was probably D. Malenko, I think, had a. An awesome, awesome Brain Buster Dimalenko, because he was. He worked with a Guerrero and you know, these, these guys who could go up and then sell that move.
But yeah, Killer Carl Cox, I think it'd be a shame I've never voted for him. But over the last six months, see more of the stuff that he's some.
Multiple countries, multiple territories as a heel, inventing moves, influencing likes of Dick Murdoch and Others really well liked I believe by a lot of the boys really well liked by a giant Baba. He did other things as well where he would. He worked under the hood a few times as the spirit in all Japan going against Dick Dick Buyer the Destroyer.
Yeah I'm. I'm leaning to vote for him and I think some of that is because I want to save him this year from going off because I think there's more strings to his bow than people realize and I think people just overlook him. But I think people if they take the time to go and investigate I think you would probably real real realize he's got quite a strong reason to be on there and I think giving him another another chance to explain that I think will help. So I still slightly above surface slightly below sorry surface level knowledge of him but I'm still someone that can't talk talk too much to his Florida run for instance you know and how long he was there under I'm guessing was it with Eddie Graham Was it before that with.
[02:55:22] Speaker C: I think it was a little trial but I I mean Jim Barnett obviously really liked him and so did Doyle because he had a huge run in Australia.
[02:55:35] Speaker D: I don't.
[02:55:36] Speaker C: I don't know. I think more people may recognize him for his Japanese stuff, you know and I think the lack of understanding and education about the WCW in Australia kind of hurts guys if that's the majority of their.
Of their or of their work in this category.
[02:55:55] Speaker B: No. Agreed agreed. So yeah someone. I think I would encourage people to look deeper especially now if he's just on the that cusp of falling off.
The last person that I'd like to just touch on is Tibor Zakas. So he's new this year.
[02:56:08] Speaker C: I'm glad because I didn't really under. I didn't know how to pronounce his name.
[02:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's just a cast.
So drop the first S. So T was akas found his career in British wrestling wasn't wasn't native Britain. He he fled to Hungary during The uprising in 56 came over here in 57 at his debut against Billy Joyce and established himself quite quickly as one of the the major heavyweights technicians in British wrestling.
He wrote he won five separate Royal Albert hall tournaments which was a big deal. So he won between 50. He won three consecutively 58, 59 and 60. So he was really well regarded there is talking to Tony Earn shows probably the person lived through a lot of this stuff in in Britain. So Tony came up as a fan in the 70s he would go to two or three shows a week every week for years and years. So he saw everybody and he doesn't rate him. He doesn't rate t boy. He doesn't think he should even be on the ballot. Which is interesting because been counterpoints from other people.
There's a podcast that came out recently again the Ballot Podcast and the Voices Will Network where there was a show for a 90 minute talk on T bow one of.
I don't know his real name but there's a poster who posts on pro wrestling only and elsewhere that advocated for Tebow as someone that should be in. So it was interesting to then see what Tony said versus the person that advocated for him. I think the thing that really helps him is the fact that he won those tournaments. He won five tournaments. We've got examples of him drawing over 5, 000 people multiple times. And in UK there's, there's a way to look at this Tony that a lot of people, people will say well Big Daddy wasn't a draw. T boss akas wasn't a drawer and others, the infrastructure wasn't there. We didn't have basketball arenas, we didn't have places like that where you know, you would run these bigger indoor arenas like you would see in the US later on in into the 70s and into the 80s, a lot smaller town halls and places like that. The big, the big places were places like the Bellevue in Manchester where was basically a dog track, it was used for dog racing primarily a big open outdoor arena and then you had the Royal Albert hall that held around four, four and a half thousand people was like the prestige venue. So he was, he was there, he would work there, he would draw there.
But I think he's more borderline than someone that's got an exceptionally strong cape.
He has longevity.
That's one thing he would say for him. So I think he went all the way through from the mid, I think 57 all the way through to the 80s.
But in terms of drawing in historical significance, I don't think there's much there for him.
And there is footage of him. So we're lucky again Tony, you can go and check him out. There's, There's Stuff on YouTube in the 70s world of sports era where there's these examples of him, him quite a dry wrestler in my opinion.
He was someone that was more of a technician and a heavyweight than someone that would you know, play up to the fans and you know, just get on with his, with his job in the ring, win his match or lose and then Leave so quite dry, but yeah. So overall thoughts then who I think I'll vote for this year?
I'm still forming my opinion. We've got, as we record this, maybe three weeks or so. When's the. When's the final date, Tony?
[02:59:36] Speaker C: October 28th, I believe. You have to have your ballot in.
[02:59:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So we just got over three weeks still, so plenty of time to kind of get where I think I want to be in terms of each. Each region. But for. For this region, which is the reason region we're talking about, I'm just pulling up who I voted for last year because I try and stick with the same people. I think. I don't think there's much point in flipping around and changing things. I think that once you've kind of committed to someone, unless some new information comes up about someone else, that makes them stronger.
[03:00:05] Speaker C: I was gonna say, once you formulated the case in your mind, we're talking about things that are historical so the facts don't change.
There may be some new information like you say, that comes in, but after you've already worked through all of that, I really don't see where it's productive. And it kind of messes up the voting too. It.
[03:00:25] Speaker A: If.
[03:00:25] Speaker C: If you flop around, flip flop around. So I'm like you. I'm pretty committed to my choices. Once I've, you know, unless something different
[03:00:33] Speaker B: comes along, well, I'll reveal who I'll talk about and I'll talk about potentially something different with someone that's close to my heart. So last year I voted for. We had four votes last year, Tony. We've got five this year because there's more candidates in this year than last year. So last year was George Gordienko, Billy Joyce, Jose Tarrespect, Spirit. Arion Spirit. Arion's now in. So that now leaves me with two spare votes. So the three that I voted for last year that are still on the ballot and two new ones. So if we look at this, we look at this from the two new ones. If we want to talk about people I think deserve a more deeper looking by a bit more time. I'm leaning strongly to Dominic Denucci and killer Carl Cox. If it's. It's not going to be that too. I may substitute one of those two for Steve Gray because I want Steve Gray to stay on the ballot and I think he's in danger of dropping off completely and I want more people to be exposed to his work to then stop people considering. Johnny Saint is the one. A technical British wrestler, lightweight wrestler from the 70s and 80s. And I think that's not fair on the likes of Steve Gray, Jim Breaks and others that were as good, if not better than Johnny Saint. They just weren't loved by people that were able to influence a voter set into the 2000s.
And then just getting on to now some new. Some. Some new news. So Big Daddy, just to touch on him. I said before we started I wouldn't but I. I can't resist. Big Daddy is someone. I think it's a travesty. Isn't on there. He's. He fell off. There wasn't enough interest for him. I have to accept that. That's the rules of the game. Everyone has to adhere to that. So he was on for 15 years. He dropped off because he didn't get 50 of the vote. He was about 47. It was his highest point. So he was on the cusp, Tony. But we've just had a new book released on his. On him and the Giant Haystacks, his rivalry over the years, which is a super interesting book written by an author, Stephen Bell. So I'd recommend people check that out. But also I may be involved with this still. But there's going to be a documentary on Big Daddy, a major documentary, properly produced, that's going to air in UK theaters when it. When it's out in 2027.
It's out to commemorate 30 years since his passing and they're really going to look at the cultural impact. I've been speaking to the guys who are working on it. Hopefully I'm going to be used as a talking head. I have to go to Halifax, where he's from, in Yorkshire. They're going to film some bits there with me. If I can make it work with my schedule, which will be super exciting. First time to be involved with that. There's some other people that have already been recorded. So that's planned to be out next year and that's really, really going to get some highly educate. Sorry. Highly professional documentary makers are gonna really hone in on his cultural impact and I think that is lost on a lot of people unless you were from the uk, lived and breathed that. Big Daddy in that influence. Huge, huge influence even to this day. So big TV show in the UK called Coronation Street. It's a soap opera. It's been running since 1955. So it's still on TV. Longest running soap opera outside of maybe a radio show. Soap opera type that's. That's been going in the world and up in two months ago. They even Referenced Big Daddy there when they said two people were fighting in the street and they said, oh, was it like Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks? So even now, the guy died for 39 years ago. Sorry, 29 years ago now, hasn't been on TV in the UK since 88 on as a wrestler, because that's when it came off. And he's still spoken about today.
So I'm hopeful that I can persuade enough people after this documentary comes out that let's. If some new information comes out, which I'm expecting it will, so then let's. Let's potentially bring him back on. I know Big Daddy is very, very divisive, though, Tony. You've got either you love him and you think he should be in, or you absolutely think he was the shits. He was far worse than a Dick, the Bruiser and JYD combined.
But someone like.
There's a blog at the moment, Matt D, who's a writer for Death Valley Driver and other forums like that, he's doing a piece at the moment with another writer, Eric, on Big Daddy, and they're really taking a look at 10 Big Daddy matches over the era, over the years, to look at. Was he really as bad as people think?
[03:04:52] Speaker C: Well, I think. I think this is where people get confused about what a performer in the wrestling business actually does.
You know, it isn't just technical work.
It's impact, it's drawing power, it's gimmick.
There are a lot of people. I mean, Jimmy Valiant was not a technical whiz, but his gimmick and his impact was enormous. And I think you've got to look at what was the impact of this? And I don't even like the word, but let's just say what was the impact of this character, culturally, attendance wise? What did he mean on the card?
Is he still relevant? Do people still talk about them today? And I think Big Daddy fills all those blanks.
[03:05:48] Speaker B: Thank you. He's not on, but when he is on, I will do a thing similar to you again. I pushed him in the past, over and over. But with you, with your Roy Welch
[03:05:58] Speaker C: kind of campaigning, let me just say, last year I voted for Billy Joyce, Gilbert Ledoux George Gordienko and Spiros Arion, who got in. So this year I've got two slots available, and this talk today with you has helped me enormously. And that's why we wanted to do this, is if there are voters out there who are not familiar with these particular candidates or this particular category or areas in the rest of the world.
We've tried to bring some facts forward and you've done a marvelous job. Do you have any closing thoughts, Alan,
[03:06:38] Speaker B: just for people to kind of be curious, you know, just because you might not be a voter, I would say there's a maybe 150 people roughly that vote from wrestlers, ex wrestlers, writers and historians.
I'm lucky, feel lucky and blessed to be able to vote. That's, that's, that's super proud of that. But even if you aren't a voter, you're listening to this. Doesn't mean you can't be curious, doesn't mean you can't go and learn something new. Wrestling is such an interesting tapestry of different characters, different people, different eras.
It's so fascinating. And every day is a school day. I say as someone that's interested, you're always going to learn something and the work that you do. Tony, I take my hat off to you.
You are consistent.
There's at least one new thing a day that you'll put out there either be it substack, be it your audio, your video, your, your content on social media, your Facebook group. And I just want to thank you being someone that's been a knowledgeable fan stroke historian for years, but really put the effort in over the last half decade or so to get a real online presence and that's paid off. You were well respected already. The voices of wrestling guys aren't asking me on Tony to tell, to tell them anything and educate them, but they're certainly going to use so you, you're definitely doing something right. But if anyone wants to learn more and I can point people in the direction of matches or articles or podcasts, feel free to reach out to me. Easiest place to find me would be on X or Twitter as it was called. So Alan, underscore Cheapshot there. I'm also on Blue Sky. You can look me up there as Alan Cheapshot without the underscore. Tony, I'm in your group so if any of your listeners want to just at me in the group and say tell me more about X, I'm happy to do that. Just want to spread the knowledge, you know.
So I'm really grateful I've been on. Hopefully next year we can do something similar. You can bring me onto your wider panel because I'd love to talk about the Japanese candidates again or even kind of the historical performers because I'm super, super passionate about Sputnik Monroe.
I really want that guy in, I am begging for him to be in. And Junkyard Dog and Wild bull courage and buyers. So if there's ever a space in the future for me there, Tony, I'd love to be on.
[03:08:51] Speaker C: Oh, there's always a space for you, Alan. And let's do that. Let's. Let's bring you on. And I know the other guys on the panel, they. They want to learn as well. And so that's the thing is we're all learning from each other.
And this show and other things like X that give us the opportunity to share our enthusiasm. You know, we're just enthusiasts about the history. And so there are other people out there that are enthusiasts and want to learn, and I love those guys and gals who want to do that. And so you've done a great job of educating us today on this, and we will continue to look at it in the future. And I'm sure if there are voters who are listening to the show today, they are. They are better off today and more educated than they were before they listened to the program. And that's what it's all about.
[03:09:41] Speaker B: Well, why thank you, and I look forward to talking to you again soon, Tony.
[03:09:45] Speaker C: All right, man. Live from the uk that is Alan Cheapshot, Alan Blackstock visiting us here at the Richards Ranch. Thank you, Alan. Come back soon.
[03:09:54] Speaker A: Okay, thank you.
[03:09:56] Speaker C: The Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Shows Wrestling Observer Newsletter hall of Fame show continues. As we move into the Mexico category, and as I have professed many times, this is a category that I am just learning about. I've tried to spend some time over the last year trying to learn more about the Mexico history, but I'm just not the guy for that. I'm, you know, US Territories and things like that. So I enlisted the help of a historian that knows all about this stuff, longtime wrestling historian and researcher. He's got a particular focus on territory wrestling, Mexican lucha libre, Puerto Rico, Pacific Northwest. I mean, he spent years digging through newspapers, archives, results sheets, all this stuff. And so Matt Farmer is joining us, and this is his first time here on the show. And I'm so excited, excited to have you, Matt. Thanks for doing this, brother.
[03:10:55] Speaker A: I'll tell you what, I'm really excited. I. I love your podcast. I love the how you focus on the territory days. That's something that's, like, really near and dear to my heart. And in fact, one of the reasons that, like, really, like, got me interested in lucha libre is because when I was growing up into the 80, you know, in the 80s and even into the early 90s, I realized that Mexican Mexico was very similar, despite what you see, inside the ring, it was very similar to hearken back to the days of territory wrestling, you know, because until just the last, I mean, there's still like a shadow of it still remaining in Mexico. But for years, Even into the 2000s, there were still very, it was very much territory based.
You did have your large promotions, but there's still those territories in the country and they actually have their own territorial draws, you know. Yeah, it was more.
[03:11:55] Speaker C: I've been learning that because I've been showing pictures on my social media of the various arenas and there were particular wrestlers who drew better in those particular arenas in those areas.
And I'm, I'm just fascinated by it. It's all new to me. So.
[03:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah, what's really interesting is being on the West Coast. I used to visit Tijuana, you know, very often.
[03:12:17] Speaker C: Sure.
[03:12:18] Speaker A: And Tijuana, you know, it's very, very famous because of the, you know, because of the proximity of San Diego and the cartels and all that good stuff. But, you know, Tijuana was, it was a city that had wrestling every Friday night at the Auditorio. And it's interesting because the Auditorio is just like a 5,000 seat gymnasium. Right, right. But like you, you go into that building and it would be packed. And we're talking about even recently in the last few years, it would be packed on a Friday night. And some of the people that were headlining those events were locals, you know, Rey Mysterio. Rey Mysterio's uncle. Rey Mysterio was a big draw in Tijuana, for example, and he would headline some of these events and of course, national stars would come in as well. But it was like its own little territory. And I, you know, I got to know some of the wrestlers and things like that in that region and it's like they would hit. It was almost like its own little territory for the locals there. And it was great. And, and the crowds. You know, one of the things that really interests me about Lucha libre were the crowds and how they reminded me of, of going to spot shows. When I was a kid. I'd go to the Don Owens spot shows, you know.
[03:13:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[03:13:34] Speaker A: And going to those shows very, the, with the reactions of the crowd were very much like the days of the territories.
[03:13:40] Speaker C: Well, just you mentioning the, the building there, I mean, that's. That reminds me of all the southern territories who all, with the exception of the Sam Houston Coliseum or maybe the Omni, all the other buildings were 5,000 seats, 6,000 seats, because they were filling them up every week.
And so it sounds like that's something they have in common there in Tijuana too, is that's about the right size of crowd. If you're a, if you're hot, you can draw that much every week, you know.
[03:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, very much, you know, and you'd have some of the other cities like Mexicali or something like that, and they would have their small gymnasium, museums or whatever that would fill up, but that Tijuana would be the center of the territory. You had that in Monterey, Guadalajara, you know, all the other major areas of Mexico where they had like a building. And a lot of them were like, you know, Monterey or Juarez. They would be sometimes outdoor bull rings which were the center attentions. And some of those buildings were even larger.
I know I went to a bull ring in the early 2000s and I saw hijo dos santo mask versus mass match. And it was like one of the most amazing experiences because I saw like as he was wrestling this gentleman by this guy by the name of Super Parka. And it was a Mass versus Mass match and Super Parker won the second fall.
And when Santo came close to losing in that third and final fall, you would see people in the crowd literally crying. You know, there was a lady next to me and she was like in tears and like her hands were trembling at the thought of Santa losing the mask. And it felt like being inside of like a, like a honeycomb, like with just a bunch of bees buzzing around you, you know. And it reminded me so much of like old school pro wrestling.
[03:15:38] Speaker C: I love it. I love it. That's cool.
Well, in the, in the hall of Fame ballot this year, in the Mexico category, we are. If you vote in it, you get three votes.
To get inducted, you have to get 60% of the ballots in the category. Anybody that's under 10% drops off.
In 2025, the Mexico pool was about 238 voters. Grand Hamada had 75.2% and Doral Dixon hit 74.8. And they were inducted last year. No one else reached the threshold. And the loss in finales fell off at 1%.
And we've got two new names this year. Colise, Colossal. Tell me how to say that. Matt Colisetti. How do you say his first?
[03:16:26] Speaker A: Colisetti. Yes. Colossal Colisetti. Yeah, I, I'm not the best at pronouncing the names, honestly, but Colisetti, he's from Argentina and he was like a top rudo heel for many years. He was like the luchador. Oh, I'll let you continue I'm sorry.
[03:16:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, the other, other new name is Losses Espantos, that's on the ballot this year. But let's just go through from the ones that are, you know, the leading candidates down to the new ones. And I guess the leading candidate is Sangre Chicana. So tell us, tell us a little bit about Sangre.
[03:17:06] Speaker A: He Songre kind of reminds me of like that long, long term heel who's consistently a heel on top of multiple promotions. He was a guy, you know, he's, he had a really long career.
Luchadors usually do have really long careers, but he was a guy who was consistently on top through all the major promotions.
He had massive feuds with Pedro Buello, who might be one of the biggest box office stars in Mexico history.
He also feuded with fish men and like a multitude of different guys. But he was just, he's probably most famous for his, his huge rivalry with Pero Guello when, when we're talking about some of these candidates. To me he's a deaf, definitive like hall of Famer.
Like you know, in the, not in the early 1980s and even late 70s, Mexico was like in a really big boom now Lucha's in a big boom right now. But at the time it was maybe even it was bigger. Definitely bigger because you had rival promotions, which was emll, which is now cmll, and a promotion called, a lot of people refer to it as El Torreo or UWA or promotions, more of. Yeah, that was one of the big promotions.
[03:18:42] Speaker C: When we did our 1976 Mexico episode, Uwa, that was the, around the first year that they were formed.
[03:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[03:18:50] Speaker C: So we started talking about the uwa, which was a really, really hot promotion right out of the gate.
[03:18:58] Speaker A: You know, it might be one of the hottest promotions for that time period of all time. You know, they, when they formed in 1974, what it was is a bunch of independent. A lot of the luchadors left EML because they felt like they were being shafted in pay.
And some of the outlining promoters who would rent talent from EMLL got together and brought in some of the biggest names in Lucha Libre and started their own company. So they were called the Independence.
And from the moment they debuted, it was like a shot out of a shotgun, you know, it just exploded. And they were running large stadiums. El Toreo was one of their home bases, which was a 20,000 seat outdoor bull ring, Palacio de la Portez, which is like an indoor 20,000 seat arena. Those were arenas they were running on a week, weekly basis. And they were averaging 10, 12, 13, 000 people every single week for, for years, you know. Yeah, and that's, that was every Sunday.
They had a partnership with New Japan Pro Wrestling and Vince McMahon as well, Vince McMahon Senior. So they were able to use international talent too. So it was nothing to see a Antonio Inoki on a card or you know, Stan Hansen or even Hulk Hogan would appear on the cards down there. So the promotion was just extremely hot. And you had guys like El Santo and Pedro Ague, who was one of the biggest stars, and you had Solitario and a lot of just huge names from multiple eras headlining these shows. And it was like each card would usually have five matches and four of those matches would have hall of Fame level guys in those matches. You know, it was just amazing.
And Sangre Chicana, he was, you know, he was primarily a emll guy, but he would go back and forth between promotions and usually that was only reserved for like the top stars, the guys that could really draw money.
And it was his feuds with like, like Pero Guello, Villano, three Lord, Tres.
He was a tag team with Fishman as well. And they just had these massive rivalries that like would switch back and forth between the promotions.
[03:21:28] Speaker C: In my effort to, in my effort to learn more about him.
I have it in my notes here though that he, he had a long light heavyweight run in AAA as well. Right, right.
[03:21:42] Speaker A: He did, yes. That was later in his career. And I would say like later in his career he, he might not have been like a.
He did definitely main event, but he probably wasn't the box office guy by the time he was in aaa. Yeah, he was always like the veteran who, whose name wouldn't hurt being in the top spot, but he wasn't like the top star.
[03:22:07] Speaker C: When would, when would his career have peaked, Matt?
[03:22:11] Speaker A: I would say he had a long peak. I would say from like 80, I would say like 81 to probably 86, 87.
[03:22:26] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[03:22:27] Speaker A: Where he was like a top guy. And it was one of those, was one of those deals where like his feud with Pero Guello, for example, they, they would feud for say four or five months, take a break and then come back, you know, six months later and light it up again. And they would just draw. And it wasn't just drawing in those big buildings, but they would hit the other arenas throughout the country and draw money as well. So it was one of those feuds where they really like, it was like a national feud, you know, so that was like really like a money draw. He also like main evented some of the big anniversary shows for EMLL.
He did multiple times where he Ms. 1, who was like a. Another rudo, was losing Fernois.
They also headline quite a few anniversary shows too.
So that was.
[03:23:27] Speaker C: I don't know what you think, but the fact that his vote total is flat, that sort of tells me that he's in the default in the vote. But he might be the third choice, you know, since guys are getting in before him. He's not yet really had a surge to get in.
[03:23:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that actually has a lot to do with just, just a lot of the voters awareness of him or maybe unaware of him.
It's interesting. Like there's a lot of the tape trader folks who are big Sangre Chicana fans. And in fact like one of his matches with Ms. One is maybe one of the considered like one of the best lucha matches the of the 1980s. So he has that work rate factor as well as the drawing factor too. So
[03:24:26] Speaker C: I gotta check that out.
Okay. So any other thoughts on Sangri Chicana?
[03:24:33] Speaker A: No, no.
You know, he's a guy that I'm gonna vote for for sure. So yeah, he's a definitive for my. For myself.
[03:24:41] Speaker C: All right, well, let's move on to Mascarita Sagrada.
[03:24:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean he is probably, I would say inarguably the best mini wrestler of all time in terms of just work rate.
So you know, he's a guy that had also a long career, really became got over in Triple A during the early Triple A explosion where they would feature those mini matches and he was like the top guy. Yeah, he, he's a guy that. I don't know like I'm on at the moment, I'm like on the fence because I did see where they would put the Minis on top in certain situations as a, as a, like while he's the best entering, he also failed when they were put in top spots as a draw and they didn't do well.
So that kind of has me questioning whether he's a Hall of Fame candidate.
[03:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah, he was also. He also made appearances in a lot of our promotions here. Modern promotions, I mean, wwf, wcw, tna.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are, a lot of people are familiar with them. But like you say, I mean I'm. You know, traditionally in pro wrestling the.
Until the modern era, a lot of the female performers or a lot of the mini performers or whatever, they were on the card in the mid card slot rather than being the draw, you know, they were part of making the show have variety in it rather than drawing the money.
[03:26:33] Speaker A: Correct. Yeah. They were that attraction or the feature. Yeah, yeah. They were often used as a way to kind of like change the tone of your event. Right.
A lot of the old time, A lot of the old time bookers used to call it like the Haha period or something like that.
[03:26:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, right.
[03:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[03:26:52] Speaker C: But I, but I tell you, I've watched some mini matches in loot. I, I enjoy the lucha of minis.
[03:26:59] Speaker A: Oh very much.
[03:27:00] Speaker C: I think they're very fast paced. Some of their spots are pretty cool.
I enjoy watching them. You know, they, they're, they're very entertaining in my mind.
[03:27:12] Speaker A: Very, very much. And he is the best of the best. You know, he is phenomenal. Some of the things you'd see him do, you know, he's very famous for that.
Geez, I know it's out there on YouTube, but he does that dive off the top of a cage onto Jake Roberts.
[03:27:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[03:27:30] Speaker A: In.
You know, and it's just like, it's one of the largest cages you'll ever see. And it's. He's, you know, he's a three foot tall guy and to see him dive off of there, it's just amazing.
He, he feuded with Espec Treato and those guys were amazing together.
They, they went around the horn a lot. They even did multiple mask matches and some spot shows and things like that. So, you know, but then again, like they, they were given opportunities to headline events and they just never did well, you know.
But like if you're just going off of work rate, he's definitely. It should be in.
[03:28:13] Speaker C: I mean, I know the WWE is using with Danhausen, you know, they're using a lot of minis and I don't know, it's just fun.
It's just fun and entertaining and I hope that's not something that hurts him. As far as voters are. I mean they just probably look at it as secondary but probably deserves a really strong look as far as being in Validor Junior.
[03:28:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, he's. He's definitely a Hall of Famer.
Myself, personally, I choose to vote people in lat later on in their careers. I prefer them to be either retired or in that position where they're, you know, they're near retirement.
[03:29:03] Speaker C: Same.
Same.
[03:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and just because you never know, right. You never know what's going to happen happen if something, if they do something at the end of their career to like totally blow off what happened earlier
[03:29:15] Speaker C: in their career or by the same token they may do something spectacular that has. You haven't seen yet or haven't done that. I mean, I think about.
[03:29:24] Speaker A: Correct.
[03:29:25] Speaker C: I mean, I, I just think about CM Punk, who was out of the business for so long. I mean, look at what he's done since he's come back. I mean, I think there's, yeah, there's, there's cases like that where I hate to vote too early on somebody when they're still active.
[03:29:42] Speaker A: Correct. You know? Yeah. CM Punk's a great example of that. He's a guy who I don't know if I would have voted for before his second run. Well, I know I wouldn't have voted for him. Yeah, me, before his second run.
But now it's like, yeah, Voldor, he's like a consistent headliner. Has been a consistent headliner for a very long time.
Extremely talented.
[03:30:09] Speaker C: What keeps, what keeps him from breaking out with the voters, you think?
[03:30:15] Speaker A: I think it's because he was never 1 8. Well, you know, maybe he was 1A for a while in the promotion, maybe the top guy for a short period of time.
But I think that's what it is. You know, I, I think I know myself sometimes when I think about hall of Famers, I think about the, to be that top echelon guy, you have to be top A, A1 or A2, you know, in a promotion and anything below that might not be a Hall of Fame level guy, you know, just because I, I, I tend to think it's like a Hall of Fame of Fame is. The hall of Fame is kind of like a, you know, a very exclusive club for the very, very tippity top 1%.
[03:31:00] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's a very high bar.
[03:31:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think at times we, we, we unfortunately lower that bar a little too much.
And he's been very consistent when he's put in a top spot. He does draw well.
But he's also pretty much just worked on top for the, the one company he hasn't had a lot of traveling. You know, he's went to Japan, of course, and things like that. But, you know, besides working for CMLL every week, that's he hasn't done anything else, you know, so he's been part of the attraction, he's been part of the, the package. I don't know if he was ever like, like the selling point of the package.
[03:31:47] Speaker C: Gotcha.
All right, so then we move on to a classic rudo tag team of, I guess the 1960s through the 1970s, and they've actually fallen off in the Vote last year they got 18.1% and that's down from 30.6. Angel Blanco and Dr. Wagner.
[03:32:11] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's there.
One of the things for me with both of those is individually, they're both hall of Fame guys.
I, I think they are as a tag team.
I think they're a Hall of Fame level tag team for sure.
Box office draws for sure. As a tag team.
They also were a trios with their friend El Solaterio.
So Laola Blanca was them as a tag team, but them also as a trios.
Huge stars. As a tag team, they, they did headline everywhere across the country during a period where they were drawing a lot of huge crowds
[03:33:08] Speaker C: and, and they were in a time period where there's not a lot of video on them.
[03:33:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, I have seen, you know, there are, there are some videos of both of them available. Both of them are very good.
So I imagine when they were younger they were even better.
It's just unfortunate because like you said, there's not a lot of video from lucha from the 70s.
But yeah, they were very big stars. I would, I would be inclined to vote for them.
They're already in his singles, so it's kind of hard for me to not vote for the trigger on. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's weird to me, like if there's two guys that are already, that are already hall of Famers, to put them in as a tag team, you know, because I think what put them in as a Hall of Famer was part of that, you know, purpose.
[03:34:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[03:34:02] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think I, I plan on voting for the Espantos as a tag team over Ola Blanca.
[03:34:14] Speaker C: Okay, then we've got El Dandy Technico and later a in AAA solid in ring work. He is.
Came in at 16.4% down from 18.8%.
[03:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
Technical.
Also Rudo too.
I mean, he, he's tremendous in the ring. I, I would say he's way above solid in the ring.
He's one of those guys who is, you know, there was probably a time frame when he was right up there with the very best in the ring.
[03:35:00] Speaker C: What years off top of your head, Matt, what years would those have been?
[03:35:07] Speaker A: Throughout the 90s for sure.
One of the things that hurts his career was his time in wcw because, because he was looked at as like almost like a jobber, you know, unfortunately. But he was still capable of being like among the best in the ring. You know, it's funny because like that, you know that skit with Bret Hart And El Dandy, you know, kind of like made El Dandy a.
A joke. But I remember at that time because. Because I was such a big fan of Lucha libre, thinking, well, El Dandy, like, is maybe one of the company's top wrestlers, you know, like, he was that good, like Bret Hart. He might be better in the ring than Bret Hart at that time, you know. So it was, it was kind of a weird dynamic. Like, he was tremendous as a wrestler.
Not con. Not as consistent as some guys.
I don't see Dandy as a Hall of Famer, however, because of the inconsistencies and because he was never like a big box office guy.
But yeah, just a tremendous worker. One motivated, I would say. He, he's almost, he, he almost kind of reminds me of, Of Dick Murdoch.
[03:36:28] Speaker F: Yeah.
[03:36:29] Speaker A: You know, where he's just, just phenomenal in the ring when he wants to be. Can't. He can be.
I saw him wrestle Pedro Guello Jr. In person, and it was one of the best matches I've ever seen live, you know, just tremendous.
So, yeah, he, he's like a Dick Murdoch to me.
[03:36:49] Speaker C: Gotcha.
Okay, then we go to one of these situations where we've got somebody on the ballot. And this character, character has been portrayed by a lot of different people.
La parka in triple A16 last year, down from 21 and a half percent. And this is the Jesus Alfonso Huerta Escoboza version of the character.
Yeah, yeah, I, I can't believe I got through that, but.
[03:37:17] Speaker A: Right.
You know, he's an interesting character.
Of course, everybody knows La park, the WCW La Parka, who's the original, who made that gimmick and that character famous. Yes, but this La Parka, who is often referred to as the AAA La Parka, or he's sometimes called La Parka junior Or La Parka number two.
He, at his peak, he was probably a bigger star than La park, but he was a company guy. Right. Like, so he was over because he was a. AAA La Parka and AAA was super hot at the time, but triple.
But La Parka, AAA La Parka was, you know, possibly their biggest star. He was in some of their biggest matches. He was definitely a huge box office office start. There was a time he definitely eclipsed La park in terms of a box office start. But a few of the things that hurt him is when they did do the feud with La park versus La Parka, La park kind of made him look like trash. You know, he kind of roughed him up a little bit and just,
[03:38:40] Speaker C: you
[03:38:40] Speaker A: know, really like, showed La park was the original, the true La Parka. So, and, and unfortunately, Triple A, La Parka's untimely death to probably, you know, that hurt his career as well, because he probably had another 10 good years of a run in him.
I, I don't, I don't think he's a Hall of Famer.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't be upset if he was voted in because he was a big star and he did headline a lot of big cards, a lot of the Triple Mania shows he headlined.
But, yeah, I, I don't think I'm gonna vote for him, but he, I, he's a guy I could definitely see getting some votes.
[03:39:27] Speaker C: All right, then we got another tag team. And I'm sure a lot of people, listeners have heard of each of these as individuals, but the tag team of El Hio Del santo and octagon, 12.6% last year are down from.
Wow, they really fell from 28 and a half percent.
[03:39:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
To be Frank, I'm kind of surprised they're on the ballot.
They're on the ballot because they were a tag team who, you know, they, they had a, they were in a tag team match that was Tag Team of the Year match or Match of the Year.
Their match with Love Machine and Eddie Guerrero was phenomenal, of course, and they were AAA Tag Team Champions, but they only teamed together as a tag team probably 50 times.
[03:40:21] Speaker C: Well, that, that's what I was wondering about this. And I, this is one of the things I wrote down to ask you. Like, like, do you think voters, with this big decline, you think voters are like, well, I'll vote for them if they go on the ballot as singles?
[03:40:34] Speaker A: Well, yeah, and I know I, I can't remember if Octagon's in, but Santo's in, of course. Yeah. You know, and this, you know, it was a highlight of Santo's career because it was a, a very well remembered tag team match on a very high platform. Platform at the time.
But, you know, 50 times as a tag team unit, that might be even stretching it. You know, they, they were AAA tag champs. I think they only defended them like once or twice, three times maybe.
So it's not like.
Because I was going through some results and I was looking to see just how many times they teamed as a unit. Now, they, they were on the same Trios team quite a few times, but they weren't like, connected together as a tag team.
[03:41:26] Speaker C: Right.
[03:41:27] Speaker A: They were just, you know, baby Face trios, which is very common in Mexico. But for Them as a unit.
[03:41:35] Speaker C: I was going to say, with the way that the Lucha is booked, they might have actually wrestled on six mans more than they wrestled together.
[03:41:43] Speaker A: 100. 100, yeah. And, you know, it was such a short run, too, that they worked as a tag team. It was maybe a year at the most, you know, So I don't know. I. I don't. They shouldn't even be on the ballot. Honestly. There's a lot of other tag teams out there that probably have a better, you know, a better argument than them.
[03:42:08] Speaker E: Yeah.
[03:42:10] Speaker C: Okay, so then they get to the two new people that we mentioned. Mentioned when we started the first one. And I've actually written on this guy before in my newsletter, but I have trouble. It's Colisetti. It's.
Tell me.
[03:42:28] Speaker A: Colossal Colisetti.
[03:42:29] Speaker C: Colossal Colisetti. There we go.
[03:42:32] Speaker A: Colossal Colisetti. Yeah. Very interesting guy. You know, like I mentioned earlier, he's from Argentina, was a perennial rudo. You know, one thing that was interesting about him is that while he was a rudo, he was also like one of those rudos who was almost like a fan favorite.
Featured on magazines.
Very. Like a lot. Like, for some reason, the photographers and the media loved him.
[03:43:02] Speaker C: Yeah, there's tons of pictures of him out there.
[03:43:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it was because he was very articulate and he had this strange charisma about him. Like, there's reports and stories about how he. In public, he was always, like, flocked by women and just. So he must have been like a really charismatic guy for a rudo. You know, when foreigners would come into Mexico, he was often chosen as, like, their opponent or put on the other side of them as an opponent. If they were baby faces coming in or if they were heels, they were often teamed with him because he was some. Something of like a ring general.
He was put in a lot of. Because of that, he was put in a lot of situations where he was part of, like, a top.
A top billing card that drew like, a lot of money. For example, like when Andre the Giant client would come to town.
[03:43:59] Speaker C: Right.
[03:44:00] Speaker A: When Andre came to Mexico, 90 of the time, the buildings were sold out.
And he was a pretty regular opponent of Andre. Or when Tiger Jet Scene came to Mexico again, Tiger was a huge star in Mexico, Broke some records with. With Singh in Mexico. And he was often Tiger partner in Mexico.
[03:44:27] Speaker C: I mean, Colisetti's career would have peaked in the late 60s, right?
[03:44:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I would say late 60s, possibly, but he was deaf.
That's. I don't know if that was a peak maybe late 70s, early 80s. Might have been his peak as a star.
[03:44:45] Speaker C: All right.
[03:44:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I know he did have.
[03:44:48] Speaker C: I know he just passed longevity. I know he just passed away like, like two years ago or something like that. Yeah, that's when I first became aware of him, is when he passed away and I started looking into his career and he was the NWA World Light Heavyweight Champion. And there were just a lot of things about him out there that I just wasn't aware of him before. He was. Yeah, he was an actor. He was in movies.
[03:45:09] Speaker A: Was an actor. He was even Texas champ. Yes, NWA Texas Champion.
[03:45:15] Speaker C: That's right.
[03:45:16] Speaker A: I do. I recall, yeah, he did pass away a few years ago because I recall doing a write up for Dave Meltzer. And during that write up, I was actually kind of, kind of shocked at how.
How much of a top star he was.
You know, he. For me, you know, just thinking back on some of those numbers, he's a borderline pick. Like, he's one of those guys who are. There's definitely an argument for him being a Hall of Famer.
Definitely. Yeah. I would have to go back and look at some of the numbers more. But, yeah, he's a guy who would.
[03:45:55] Speaker C: I.
[03:45:56] Speaker A: You know, he's right there.
[03:45:58] Speaker C: And as strange as it may seem, the other new name on the ballot is the only Trio Team in on the ballot. And that's the. I think you mentioned you're probably going to vote for Espanto 1, 2 and 3, right?
[03:46:12] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, when looking at that, I. I'm more inclined to vote for them as just a tag team of the 1 and 2, but 3 was in there. He was definitely in the mix, and he was in the mix during their heyday.
But Espantos 1 and 2, they were huge in the 60s.
Now, I was going through some of the Espantos and information, and one of the things I did realize is that their run on top and their run as a, as a team was relatively short.
It was only from, I believe, 1960, 1961 to 1968, when Espanta One passed away, or he was actually killed in a bar fight.
But, you know, so their run was, you know, seven, eight years, but they were consistently on top.
They were the catalyst for turning Santo Baby Face, which a lot of fans don't realize. But, you know, this was in 1962.
Santo had been El Santo for 20 years prior to that and was
[03:47:30] Speaker D: actually
[03:47:30] Speaker A: a rudo in a lot of ways. Like, he was rough, he was cheered, of course, and he was considered like, people loved Him. But in Mexico, it's a weird. It's, it's different than he'll face in the US in that rough wrestlers can still be like baby faces in some ways. But his full transition to like a technico wasn't until 1962. He would team with like a lot of rudos, you know, up until that point. So 1962, in a match, they turned on him and it led to like a huge feud. They sold out a ton of arenas, made a ton of money. It led to numerous anniversary shows or big shows where they put their masks on the line. And some of these matches they would break attendance records and things like that.
So all the way from 1, 2 and 3, they all were entwined in this storyline was revolving around Santo, where they put their masks and their hair on the line and they all drew like huge business.
So it was definitely a hall of fame run.
[03:48:41] Speaker C: When you were talking about that just now, it reminded me, I was just thinking about here in Tennessee territory in 79 and 80, Jerry Lawler and Jimmy Valiant, they were a heel tag team.
And I just would tell myself, I can't be mad at these guys. You know, I can't, I can't not like them. They're. They're cool. I like their interviews. I like the thing. They're, you know, they do cheating tactics and they do all the classic American heel stuff. But their interviews were so great and they were so charismatic. I couldn't. And, or maybe like the Freebirds, like, I have a hard time, I have a hard time going against them because they, they're, they're charismatic and they're entertaining and they're fun.
[03:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[03:49:27] Speaker A: It's almost like the Freebirds is a great.
That, that's a great example because it's almost like the Freebirds would. Even in Dallas, they would, they would get cheered almost against anybody but the Von Erichs.
[03:49:39] Speaker C: Right, that's right.
[03:49:40] Speaker A: You know, because they were so charismatic. And it's like, I, I don't know, because it's hard to tell because I don't. I was.
I.
We don't have access to those crowd reactions. Right. Of Santo necessarily.
[03:49:53] Speaker E: Yeah.
[03:49:53] Speaker A: And he was a movie star and Even in the 40s and 50s, he was the biggest star in the country.
But he. Technically he was a rudo, so it's kind of hard to like hear that, you know, and he was always favorited in mask. Mask matches, which is non rudo thing.
[03:50:11] Speaker C: Right.
[03:50:12] Speaker A: So. But he was considered a rudo. And I, I guess there was like the publications took it as like, oh, he's no longer a rudo after that match. So espantos were such a, you know, they were so evil that they were able to help Santo become that baby face across the country.
[03:50:32] Speaker C: That's amazing. I mean, I, that, that, that, that kind of sways me, I think, about voting for them.
[03:50:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[03:50:39] Speaker C: Just listening to you talk about the cultural influence that they had and the, the impact that they had on the fans and the crowds of the day, you know.
[03:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[03:50:50] Speaker A: And they were like, they were national tag team champions, but they weren't like, they weren't the, the guys that collected like a bunch of title reigns, you know, but they were the rudos that were always in the mix on top. And they feuded with Santo and Blue Demon and did they have shadow.
[03:51:09] Speaker C: Did they have mask losses, Matt?
[03:51:12] Speaker A: They did, yes. They, they, like I mentioned earlier, their mask matches against Santo and other baby faces were huge. They would lose their mask and then a few months later or a year later, they'd put up their hair and lose their hair.
[03:51:27] Speaker E: Yeah.
[03:51:27] Speaker A: And these matches were matches that, you know, at the big Arena Mexico shows where you'd read the reports, and they were like, new, you know, new attendance record or new gate record. You know, this. So they were shattering records. And I know, like, a lot of the publications, you would say new gate record and they would list the gate amount and it's like, oh, well, that's lower than last year's gate record where they said they, you know, but it was consistently like, oh, new gate record. New gate record. You know, so they were constantly in that mix.
[03:52:02] Speaker C: Amazing. Well, anything else about this category that we should mention?
There's. There's nine candidates in the category. It's one of the.
Compared to some of the other categories, it's pretty slender.
Yeah. And it's got some. Maybe got some people in it that, as you mentioned, maybe shouldn't be, but there are some real good candidates in this.
[03:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, some of, like Santo and Octagon. I'm not sure if they should be on the ballot just because of their lack of time as a team, but, you know, they were, they were so remarkable. The few times they did team up, it was. I could see why they're on the ballot just because, you know, when a lot of Americans think of Lucha libre, they think of that tag team match. Right, right.
But I am kind of shocked that there were so few people. I need to really do like a. I need to go and look at the hall of Fame and see who's in When I, when I did talk with Dave on another show, he mentioned some guys from the past who might need to be brought back up as a historical vote. And Murcielago Velasquez was one of the guys who I thought was one of the pioneers of Lucha libre who should get another look.
Huge star. He was like the Santo before Santo.
His matches, El Santo versus Black Shadow was often given the nod for being the match that popularized mask versus mask matches. Yes, but Velasquez, he was involved in a series of mask and hair matches. In fact, it was like five weeks straight of hair matches where the very last one he lost his mask. Those, I think actually established the mask match prior to Santo doing it and made those masks matches like the big money matches.
But he was a huge star and he had a long career, unfortunately, like the last probably eight or nine years. He was more like a opening match, middle card type of guy. But I mean, three years, he was a top guy.
[03:54:24] Speaker C: I don't know about you, but I don't mind voting for someone who had a short top run depending upon the what catalyst they are for amazing things. Like you just mentioned about popularizing the mask match. I mean, that's. To me, that's very significant.
[03:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right, it is. And I, I don't think there is any shame, especially, especially years ago for somebody to drop down the card because bodies broke. It seems like bodies broke down earlier. Younger years ago, maintenance on people's bodies weren't as good. So once a wrestler was getting close to 40, it was very common for them to kind of like wind down a little bit.
[03:55:15] Speaker C: Sure.
[03:55:16] Speaker A: Maybe work, you know, the middle of the card.
So that doesn't bother me as much either.
[03:55:23] Speaker C: No, I don't think so either.
I like, you know, there's always the knock on the junkyard dog. That is Mid south run was only four to five years long, but I look at the significance of it and the things that he was doing and the, you know, all time biggest crowd ever in the Superdome and things like that. I mean, to me that's a strong consideration regardless of what else happened in his career, you know, so agreed, you know, when guys.
[03:55:54] Speaker A: Agreed.
[03:55:54] Speaker C: When guys are part of things like that that are really pivotal to that particular time period, I think it should be a stronger consideration.
[03:56:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And something else I like to look at too is I like to look at their impact on the media at the time.
Like I've had this conversation with other others, but like, you know, obvious hall of Famers, guys like Ed Lewis and Jim Londos and, of course, you know, Gus Sonnenberg and things like that. You look at them, and not only on paper do they have a Hall of Fame career, but if you go back and study, like, if you go back and look at the media of the time, the newspapers, and see how often they're, you know, they're discussed in those media forms, it's. It's pretty tremendous. And like Mercia Lago Velasquez in the Lucha magazines and the coverage, even years after his.
He was out of the business, he was consistently referred to as like, a top guy, you know, kind of like Gus Sonnenberg, you know, even after he retired, it was very common to hear his name brought up when somebody gave somebody a football tackle, for example.
[03:57:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[03:57:11] Speaker A: Because he was such a big star that he was like a reference for that move.
But, like, if you go back and look at those newspapers of the eras, you know, during the Londos and Ed Lewis era, you can't open a newspaper without seeing their name referenced.
[03:57:30] Speaker C: You know, I was just doing some study on Whipper Billy Watson the other day, and he's. He's in the newspaper endorsing aluminum doors and aluminum windows and Frigidaire appliances, and he's the guest at these fundraising dinners that are $60 a plate in 1956. And he's sitting there with other major sports figures, and he's on the same level as them. I mean, that's a significant, significant impact to me, you know, very much.
[03:58:02] Speaker A: And he. He was also a guy where AP reports would pick up stories about him.
[03:58:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[03:58:07] Speaker A: Which was, you know, fans today might not understand the significance of that, but that was like a report that was carried on the national level. So that story on Whipper Watson that was picked up, that happened in Toronto, was reported on in every. Not every paper in the country. But, but. But a lot of papers. Paper, yeah, most of the major papers would pick up those AP reports and print them. So you had those names that were like, they were national names. You know, when Jim Londos wrestled, if nothing else, the results of his matches were reported nationally, you know, which is amazing to think about.
[03:58:50] Speaker C: And the other thing about Lando said, I think is always amazing is the fact that he might wrestle in Boston tonight, and then tomorrow night he might be in some little town that you would not necessarily notice. I mean, he was not discretionary about only working in major markets. And.
[03:59:11] Speaker A: No, you know, I know, like, when he. He came out to the Northwest, it's like the Northwest in the, in the 40s we didn't have, have major arenas. We didn't have basketball size arenas. We had 6,000 seat indoor arenas. Right. Like if you wanted to go outdoors. Yes. You could probably find a football stadium or something to wrestle in. But you know, you, if you came to the northwest, especially if it wasn't in the fall or in the summer, you were going to wrestle indoors, right?
[03:59:40] Speaker F: Yeah.
[03:59:40] Speaker C: Right.
[03:59:40] Speaker A: So you come, you come to the, the ice arena and you sell it out at 6,000 people. You know, that's a major news.
You know, that's a major event. For a wrestler who's not from the area coming in for one night and competing.
That's a big, that's a big accomplishment.
[03:59:59] Speaker C: It is.
Well, Matt, thank you so much for lending your expertise on this Mexico category. I mean, you're a, you're a recurring guest on the Wrestling observer radio show with Dave and anything else we need to know about what you're up to lately.
[04:00:17] Speaker A: Well, let me plug my company, Defy Wrestling, please. We, we took a little bit of a hiatus there, but we're back. We just ran an event in Detroit, Michigan. We've got an event coming up December 4th in Seattle. It's a return to Seattle after almost a whole year. Wow.
That event is thankfully almost sold out. We do have, have a few, a very limited amount of standing room only tickets available.
So if you're in the Seattle region and you want to go to a great professional wrestling show, go to Washington hall in December, December 4th. But yeah, follow me at Defy Wrestling or at defy nw or check me out on social media at Matt Farmer93.
[04:01:05] Speaker C: Awesome. All right, Matt, well listen, thanks a lot. Can't wait to have you back and have some more discussions, man. Appreciate you.
[04:01:12] Speaker A: Sure, I appreciate it. Thanks, Tony.
[04:01:14] Speaker C: What a blockbuster show. My goodness. We are loaded up with historians and experts on this week's episode of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. We started out with Steve Giannarelli, we had Greg Klein, we had Brian Solomon, we've had Alan Blackstock, we've had Matt Farmer and we've had me in the middle of all those fantastic people here on this week's episode of the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. Thank you so much for joining us this week. Don't forget next week we're going to go to Portland, Oregon for Portland Wrestling in 1976. We're going to go to Vancouver for that territory in 1976 and we're going to have a great mailbag show here next week. If you have questions you want to drop in for the mailbag? You can drop those in on our Facebook group. You can drop them in to me on Twitter X, you can drop them to me on our YouTube channel and you can send them to me directly. TonyRichards4mail.com and if you get them in by Friday, October 23rd, we'll get them on this next episode's Mailbag coming up next week here on the show.
Also, before the year is over, I got to take my glasses off. I could see a long way off with my glasses and my big board. That shows me all our big shows coming up. We still got New Japan 76 coming up. We still got Georgia 76 coming up. We've got Ontario, Toronto, Ontario, Canada 76 coming up. We've got Dallas 76. We got Amarillo 76 and a whole lot more. We got one really cool thing. Well, we got a lot of cool stuff coming up. Can't wait to share it with you. If you are listening on Apple or Spotify, do me a Do me a solid Follow our show, hit the follow button and drop a five star review in because that helps more and more fans of territory wrestling history and pro wrestling history discover all these deep dives on territory wrestling that we do, all these great features that we do. So if you leave a five star review, it shows up in the algorithm and suggests us to other people who may be interested in doing and listening and watching these things that we do here on the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel History Show. Don't forget to come to my website, pro wrestlingtimetunnel.com a lot of my history is published there.
You can become a free subscriber and you can get access to a lot of my research. If you want to support my work that I'm doing as a pro wrestling historian, you can become a paid premium subscriber at the $5 level.
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If you do $5 a month, that's $60 a year. But if you want to save them a little money, you can pay all at once and it's 50 bucks for the $5 level of paid. And man, we got a lot of great premium content that comes out to our five dollar a month subscribers and that helps offset some of our costs here and helps support the work that I'm doing to bring a lot of this stuff to you guys. So thank you so much for joining us. We've had a long show. I'm not going to keep you I'll see you back here again next week for all the great stuff we're going to be doing from 1976 on the mailbag. Live from the Richards Ranch in Western Kentucky, this is your friend Tony Richards, reminding you that if you want better neighbors, be a better neighbor. So long, everybody from the Bluegrass State.
[04:04:57] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the Pro Wrestling Time Tunnel podcast.
[04:05:01] Speaker D: Tune in for another great episode next
[04:05:03] Speaker A: week, interviewing wrestlers, referees and media personalities that have made the sport of professional wrestling great.
[04:05:11] Speaker E: We'll release a new episode soon.
[04:05:13] Speaker A: Don't you dare miss it.
